75 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Paula Deen wrote...

Geth give us pronoun trouble, sure, but every AI is the equivalent of a person.

Legion, for instance, has goals, desires, likes and dislikes. "He" even made the irrational action of using Shepard's old N7 armor for repairs.

I refer to Legion as "he" because he's effectively an individual. Gender obviously isn't existent for Geth, but calling him "it" is dehumanizing and unfriendly.

And that's not even bringing up EDI, who, by the end of ME2, displays so many characteristics of "people" that I view her no differently from Mordin or Jack.

How can you dehumanize something that isn't human?

[Battlepope190]

Sad to see this many small-minded opinions.

[S.A.K]

Guys this thread is about geth, not skynet or terminator. Please get back to topic.

[CroGamer002]

Seboist wrote...

Paula Deen wrote...

Geth give us pronoun trouble, sure, but every AI is the equivalent of a person.

Legion, for instance, has goals, desires, likes and dislikes. "He" even made the irrational action of using Shepard's old N7 armor for repairs.

I refer to Legion as "he" because he's effectively an individual. Gender obviously isn't existent for Geth, but calling him "it" is dehumanizing and unfriendly.

And that's not even bringing up EDI, who, by the end of ME2, displays so many characteristics of "people" that I view her no differently from Mordin or Jack.

How can you dehumanize something that isn't human?

Also Legion is "they".

There's no individual in Legion, yet.



Reason why we mostly say "he" is because in most conversation is simple to just say "he" since calling Legion "they" can cause small confusion while "it" is just insulting.

[goofyomnivore]

I think they're sentient, but they need to continue evolving their sentience to survive, imo. It has taken them 300-ish years to go from "do Geth have a soul?" to warring factions (actual individualism).

[ElectricZ]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ElectricZ wrote...

Not really, since those are the most common elements in the universe.

No, they do matter because they have a huge effect on how the final product is put together. Organic experience is what it is because of how organic organisms are put together. It is radically different from the kind of "experience" a synthetic "organism" would have.

The fact of hte matter is, geth are pure software. Meaning they are purely computer programs. You could write a geth down on papre and manually run its program and it would "live" despite being nothing more than you solving math equations. Where would the brain be, the "mind" I mean? The consciousness?

It would take a VERY LONG time and not be practical, but it would work.

Try and really get your ahead around that idea.

I did, and it still doesn't fly.

An organic being can be cloned. You can take your DNA, your very genetic code, and come up with a copy that is physically identical to yourself. But it's not you, because your memories and experiences are what make you you.

Even thoughts and memories are chemical reactions and electrical impulses. At some point, we're going to be able to interface a human mind with synthetic memory. Whether or not it's a complete transfer like jacking into the Matrix, or just being able to copy memories to an SD card to send to grandma because she missed your kid's graduation is a question of technology, which is always changing. But at the point we're able to actually copy memories, sensory experiences and thought from one brain to another is a point where we've crossed into being organic hardware. We just will have had to accomplish it on our own, rather than having been built that way like the geth.

Converting Legion and all of its 1,183 programs to 0's and 1's and putting them on paper, then recompiling them into another platform won't get you another Legion because its thoughts and experiences won't go with it, any more than taking your DNA and it's GATC sequences and putting them in an egg will produce a new you. If you could transfer the sum total in a binary copy then you might get that perfect clone, but the perspectives and experiences the two have at that point would diverge, and their behavior would change in the future as a result.

The geth share memories but still have different perspectives. Witness the heretics splitting off, and Legion's own individualistic behavior after operating on its own for so long. What's more, they recognize the different perspective they have with organic species and are actively trying to figure us out, as evidenced by their social experiment of sending a bunch of salarians on a wild goose chase to see a religious vision that did not exist to see what effect it would have on their belief.

Or maybe they're just the galaxy's greatest trolls. We'll have to wait until ME3 to find out. But based on the information I have, I'm still going with sentient beings deserving of the same consideration as organic sentient species.

[S.A.K]

I might change this thread later. There are more things that I need to discuss and I don't think I need to make another thread.

[S.A.K]

Ok I changed this thread a bit. I forgot to add some parts when I made it.

[CroGamer002]

Yeah, Quarians and Geth can coexist.

Only 2 people can f*ck that up.
Shepard and Admiral Xen.

[PiercedMonk]

Geth are machines.

Although, to be fair, humans are machines, too. Just machines made of meat and bone and brain.

[S.A.K]

PiercedMonk wrote...

Geth are machines.

Although, to be fair, humans are machines, too. Just machines made of meat and bone and brain.

I think machines are things that were made by organics. But when they are sentient you can consider them people.

[ElectricZ]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Right, it's not me. it doesn't have the same experiences and likely won't even have a similar personality. So what you said has no real bearing on what I said.

Actually it did. You said that you could recreate a geth by converting its code to binary, on paper, and then recompile it as evidence that it could not be considered a sentient being. I countered that by pointing out all you would get is a copy of that machine, but not its experiences, and would effectively have a new individual. I then likened that to what happens when you a person's genetic code and essentially do the same thing, minus the paper.

So, you basically just agreed with and reiterated my point, then followed up with "nuh-uh!"

Try again.

Nah, don't think I will.

Modifié par ElectricZ, 07 juillet 2011 - 01:56 .

[knightnblu]

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Machines. No matter how you try to pretty it up they are still manufactured creations of wires and metal.

That is an interesting perspective, but I disagree with it. The essence of sentience is being self aware. Take us for example, our body could accurately be described as an organic machine. From our cellular functions to our genetic coding, the differences between organic systems and machines is really indistinct. The recent TV series Battlestar Galactica and the more distant Andromeda, examined the place of AI in relationship to organics and arrived at some startling conclusions.
 
First, it doesn't really matter what your body is made of so long as your intelligence remains self aware. As an example, if your essence were removed from your body and placed in a robot would you be you or would you be a machine? I believe that the individual would remain who they were prior to the switch and would retain all of their attributes.
 
After all, isn't everything we perceive just electrical signals anyway? Our nervous systems interpret our sensory input and our mind makes decisions based on that data. Therefore, the movie The Matrix is correct in their assertion that to a machine, all reality is virtual. However, all reality is also virtual to a human being as well and for the exact same reasons that it is virtual to artificial intelligence. This is precisely because of how we sense the world around us.
 
If our body functions as a machine and our perceptions of reality are based on a machine's perception (i.e. electrical impulses), then the difference is not so great as previously believed. So where does this leave AI? With self awareness comes sentience and that means that we are speaking of an individual. In the case of a nested intelligence, such as legion, the individual is the whole because they share memories and experiences and this develops them all simultaneously. This makes all Geth extensions of a single mind. Will they eventually develop into individuals? The very presence of Legion and the divergence of the heretics suggest that possibility, but nobody can really say for certain.
 
By denying anything special about AI, we are comforting ourselves by affirming our unique niche in nature. Unfortunately, when examined in the cold light of reason such comforts dissipate like the early morning mists on a lake as the sun rises.
 
Secondly, this opens the door to the rights of AI. If a synthetic person exists, then that person deserves to be treated just like any other person. Otherwise you are creating a second class citizen by definition. Therefore, I hold that it is sentience that creates the individual, not organic vs. synthetic.
 
Lastly, morality comes into play. If an AI is created and it does not adhere to any standard ethics or morality, then the results could be potentially catastrophic because that AI would be akin to a pure sociopathic personality. It would view organics as toys at best and as vermin at worst. Additionally, if the AI were to go insane secondary to hardware failure or malfunction, it could also prove to be a deadly event.

[krzimmer]

I love the whole Quarian-Geth discussion. So many philosophical and moral questions that come into play. I thought Tali's and Legion's loyalty quests (probably my two favorites, along with Mordin's) in ME2 were brilliant in the way that they presented us with moral dilemmas that we had to solve when there is no clear right or wrong answer.

Take Legion's for instance. Do you "rewrite," the Geth Heretics, essentially taking away their free-will; or do you destroy them completely, essentially committing genocide. Such a tough choice. And then all these other questions pop up that make the choice even more difficult. Are they just machines ultimately, or does their sentience make them something more? If they are a threat to organics, does it matter what we do with them? It's Just an absolutely brutal decision to have to make, I can't imagine what it would be like to be in Shepard's shoes. If it were me it would torture me for the rest of my life, no matter what choice I made.

When it comes to the Quarians, Are they victims of the the Geth, or did they do this to themselves? After all, they did create an Artificial Intelligence and should have been aware of the risks. And you can't blame the Geth for fighting for their survival. But at the same time, what the Geth did to the Quarians was no less harsh, reducing them to a wandering band of survivalists searching for a new home.

Has the time has come for the two sides to reconcile, acknowledging that neither can be fully blamed for the mistakes that were made in the past?

It's like Bioware took the idea strait from the show Battelstar Galactica (my favorite show EVER), which is one of the reason's I'm so fascinated with it.

I'm interested in how Bioware will let us explore this issue further in ME3, with the Quarian-Geth war that seems to be looming on the horizon.

Modifié par krzimmer, 08 juillet 2011 - 11:43 .

[ThePwener]

Legion is ethically a 'they" but I consider him a "he". Geth also cannot be indoctrinated, only organics can. That's what the "math error" was for.

[GodWood]

S.A.K wrote...
Do you consider Geth as people or just machines?

Machine people. 

Legion is a he, they or a it?

The platform is an it, the 'personality' is a they. 

And can the geth be indoctrinated?

They can be reprogrammed/rewritten, so yes in a sense.
The heretics however were not indoctrinated they followed Sovereign by choice.

Also will quarians be able to acquir their home world from geth without war? Legion said that quarians didn't ruin their world in the morning war and that the geth aren't staying on the surface of the world. They are acting as "caretaker" of quarian home world. Legion and Tali work together along with shepard. So I think geth and quarians can coexist as long as they undestand each other.

The geth that are alive today are the same geth that were involved in the Morning War.
Although they were the first to be 'attacked' they went too far by murdering billions of innocent quarian civilians when it was clear the quarians were already defeated.

For that they are guilty of genocide and must be punished/destroyed.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 juillet 2011 - 12:12 .

[ReallyRue]

I say the geth are a people, but not in the same way as organics. They don't have individuality in the same way as organics, or have the same emotions. But they do think, and seem to feel. After all, Legion clearly admires Shepard, and is offended if Shepard sides with Tali against it. I refer to Legion the same as EDI, as an "it". Technically, I guess it's "they", but they make up the single personality of Legion. As for the last question, I really hope the quarians get back their planet peacefully. The geth don't even seem to really want it, and the quarians would probably suffer horribly even if they did manage a victory. 

GodWood wrote...

Also will quarians be able to acquir their home world from geth without war? Legion said that quarians didn't ruin their world in the morning war and that the geth aren't staying on the surface of the world. They are acting as "caretaker" of quarian home world. Legion and Tali work together along with shepard. So I think geth and quarians can coexist as long as they undestand each other.

The geth that are alive today are the same geth that were involved in the Morning War.
Although they were the first to be 'attacked' they went too far by murdering billions of innocent quarian civilians when it was clear the quarians were already defeated.

For that they are guilty of genocide and must be punished/destroyed.

And... the quarians aren't guilty of genocide (or rather, attempted genocide)?

Modifié par ReallyRue, 08 juillet 2011 - 01:14 .

[AngelicMachinery]

ReallyRue wrote...

I say the geth are a people, but not in the same way as organics. They don't have individuality in the same way as organics, or have the same emotions. But they do think, and seem to feel. After all, Legion clearly admires Shepard, and is offended if Shepard sides with Tali against it. I refer to Legion the same as EDI, as an "it". Technically, I guess it's "they", but they make up the single personality of Legion. As for the last question, I really hope the quarians get back their planet peacefully. The geth don't even seem to really want it, and the quarians would probably suffer horribly even if they did manage a victory. 

GodWood wrote...

Also will quarians be able to acquir their home world from geth without war? Legion said that quarians didn't ruin their world in the morning war and that the geth aren't staying on the surface of the world. They are acting as "caretaker" of quarian home world. Legion and Tali work together along with shepard. So I think geth and quarians can coexist as long as they undestand each other.

The geth that are alive today are the same geth that were involved in the Morning War.
Although they were the first to be 'attacked' they went too far by murdering billions of innocent quarian civilians when it was clear the quarians were already defeated.

For that they are guilty of genocide and must be punished/destroyed.

And... the quarians aren't guilty of genocide (or rather, attempted genocide)?

While EDI's sex is that of an "IT" her gender is most definitly female.  Just saying.

[GodWood]

ReallyRue wrote...

GodWood wrote...
The geth that are alive today are the same geth that were involved in the Morning War.
Although they were the first to be 'attacked' they went too far by murdering billions of innocent quarian civilians when it was clear the quarians were already defeated.

For that they are guilty of genocide and must be punished/destroyed.

And... the quarians aren't guilty of genocide (or rather, attempted genocide)?

No their ancestors are.
The geth that are alive today are the same geth that committed genocide 300 years ago thus they are still guilty.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:29 .

[Hediori]

They're sentient and self-aware, capeable of independent thought and contemplation, which makes them remarkably interesting. They're so complex that they can barely be comprehended, which is why I consider them to be equal to an sentient organic race. Different, but equal. The origion of either is inconsequential.

[ReallyRue]

GodWood wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

GodWood wrote...
The geth that are alive today are the same geth that were involved in the Morning War.
Although they were the first to be 'attacked' they went too far by murdering billions of innocent quarian civilians when it was clear the quarians were already defeated.

For that they are guilty of genocide and must be punished/destroyed.

And... the quarians aren't guilty of genocide (or rather, attempted genocide)?

No their ancestors are.
The geth that are alive today are the same geth that committed genocide 300 years ago thus they are still guilty.

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. That makes more sense.