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[telephasic]

I just saw the interview with David Gaider where he makes the point that Varric was designed to be an unreliable narrator.  In that, he might not have been just fibbing during the inital prologue, but continuing to fib throughout his retelling.  

This got me to thinking about how people are so let down by the ending in Act 3 - that Hawke is powerless to change anything, and presented as a bystander.  At least, that's how Varric presents it. 

Now, why would Varric do this?  To get his friend off the hook!  The chantry believes that Hawke instigated the war between the Templars and the Mages.  Instead, Varric explains that Hawke was essentially an innocent, pushed into his circumstances by accident, not someone who actively chose for his actions to have the tremendous repercussions they did.  

Which raises the question of how much of the story, especially Chapter 3, looked anything like this.  Was the real Hawke actually far more actively involved in picking sides for the conflict?  

Also, people have noted Varric is just so much more likable and better written than the other NPCs.  Well, again he's telling his own story here.  Of course he'd talk up his charisma, and downplay that of the other characters, including Hawke.  

Hell, if you take it far enough, you could excuse some of the shoddy plot elements - Varric simply hadn't had time to put together a good narrative. 

[FieryDove]

I have considered this.

Also a incoming DLC with Varric saying..."And then Hawke wakes up."

But if Varric was just covering everything up, why bother playing...a game? An intro movie to DA3 would have worked as well and cheaper to develop.

[GavrielKay]

I've thought about that myself, but in order to really make it work, there would have to be some kind of in game indication of it. And, that still leaves somewhat unsatisfying game play. They may well have intended it to feel like a narrative but if so, they should rethink the approach for future games.

As someone in another thread pointed out, using Varric's narration as an excuse can explain the waves in combat as well... Varric saying "there were 5 of them... no, wait, 10 of them!" I thought that sounded pretty funny.

[Rifneno]

The problem is, going "Varric lied" will essentially be considered a retcon by a ton of people. As much as people didn't like DA2's lack of choice, just saying the game didn't happen will enrage the fanbase. I literally can't think of anything they could do that would alienate the fans more.

[alex90c]

I find "Varric lied" excuses for retarded/irritating/irksome/whatever you wanna call it things in the game just a huge cop out, so while the OP does actually pose a decent theory, considering the game was advertised as a "rise to power" and "shape the game around your decisions" (or something to that effect) I don't think it really holds water. Yes it's marketing talk, but I don't think they expected people would find Hawke to be as powerless as he was.

[Big I]

I may have had a lot of problems with the DA2 story, but if they use the "Varric made it up" excuse to introduce retcons about DA2 to future titles I would be furious. Why the hell did I even play the game if the "real" story happened off-screen?

[Quill74Pen]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I may have had a lot of problems with the DA2 story, but if they use the "Varric made it up" excuse to introduce retcons about DA2 to future titles I would be furious. Why the hell did I even play the game if the "real" story happened off-screen?

We're all Bioware's little lab rats, it seems. Of course, unlike real lab rats, we can always get off the wheel, blow up the cage and leave, taking our time, money and recommendations with us.

Quill74Pen

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The problem is, going "Varric lied" will essentially be considered a retcon by a ton of people. As much as people didn't like DA2's lack of choice, just saying the game didn't happen will enrage the fanbase. I literally can't think of anything they could do that would alienate the fans more.

This.


Also, they could say "Varric lied, Merrill doesn't exist, Anders was even worse than was shown, Varric actually does have a beard on his face, etc.." Basically they can just BS retcons galore because they can blame it on Varric.


I'd be willing to accept the minor things being blamed on Varric even though I know it's really Bioware's fault. The minor things sure.

"Waves jumping down in a nonsensical fashion? Blame Varric".

Ok Bioware.

"Going through the same cave 30 times despite it being 'different'? Blame Varric."

Ok Bioware.

But to retcon all of DA2 and blame Varric would be The Last Straw for me. I'd call for an Annulment on Bioware.

[Torax]

Varric will never have a beard. We don't need Mary crying again!!!



unless of course it was the t-shirt they gave him in that mod...

Modifié par Torax, 06 juillet 2011 - 01:20 .

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

Varric will never have a beard. We don't need Mary crying again!!!



unless of course it was the t-shirt they gave him in that mod...

Varric lied to Cassandra about not having a beard. She only saw him as beardless, but Varric played a fancy trick on her to conceal his actual beard.


Varric lied. The excuse for everything!

[hoorayforicecream]

FieryDove wrote...

I have considered this.

Also a incoming DLC with Varric saying..."And then Hawke wakes up."

But if Varric was just covering everything up, why bother playing...a game? An intro movie to DA3 would have worked as well and cheaper to develop.

Super Mario Bros 2 (US version, Doki Doki Panic! in Japan) was revealed to all be a dream at the end. But it was still fun to play. 

[TJPags]

As with others, I don't EVER want to see or hear "Varric lied" as an explanation for any type of change from the events of DA2.

I didn't like DA2, I think it has way too many faults and far too few virtues. I think it has no replay value whatsoever.

But I bought it. I played it. And if Bioware decides that what I played didn't really happen, no matter how minor, and says "well, Varric lied" . . . yea, not going to go over very well. At all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That would be quite the nail in the coffin.

[TJPags]

More like the stake through the heart, KoP.

[Torax]

I'll go ahead and point out anyway that in a post a while back David G. replied in said "Varric Lied" thread with a reference to Bobby's in the Shower. So I doubt the writers would ever go that route.

[Rifneno]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

I have considered this.

Also a incoming DLC with Varric saying..."And then Hawke wakes up."

But if Varric was just covering everything up, why bother playing...a game? An intro movie to DA3 would have worked as well and cheaper to develop.

Super Mario Bros 2 (US version, Doki Doki Panic! in Japan) was revealed to all be a dream at the end. But it was still fun to play. 

No it wasn't.  Fun to play that is.  And as you implied, it wasn't intended to be a Mario game.  They released a real SMB2 in Japan but it was considered retardedly hard and little more than some new levels with zero game improvements.  To put that in perspective, in an era where games like Contra, Ninja Gaiden, and Battletoads a society that's way better than ours at video games threw their controllers at the wall and said "screw this."  That is impressive.  Anyway, they already announced SMB2 when they found out someone would probably burn down NOA if they released it.  So they released another game in its place after quickly sticking some Mario sprites in it.  It makes sense they had it turn out to be a dream, it was never intended to be canon.  Keep in mind, this was years before they made Bowser a transsexual or implied that Peace slept with him and produced some freaky cross-species abomination.  They might've actually written canon while sober.

But most important of all, by far...  You're talking about a game based around throwing vegetables at strange little monsters.  It's a litttttle bit different than a story-based RPG where most of the fanbase cares about the plot far more than the mechanics.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That would be quite the nail in the coffin.

 

This. 

If it becomes a "this was all a dream." I'll facepalm. 

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

I have considered this.

Also a incoming DLC with Varric saying..."And then Hawke wakes up."

But if Varric was just covering everything up, why bother playing...a game? An intro movie to DA3 would have worked as well and cheaper to develop.

Super Mario Bros 2 (US version, Doki Doki Panic! in Japan) was revealed to all be a dream at the end. But it was still fun to play. 

No it wasn't.  Fun to play that is.  And as you implied, it wasn't intended to be a Mario game.  They released a real SMB2 in Japan but it was considered retardedly hard and little more than some new levels with zero game improvements.  To put that in perspective, in an era where games like Contra, Ninja Gaiden, and Battletoads a society that's way better than ours at video games threw their controllers at the wall and said "screw this."  That is impressive.  Anyway, they already announced SMB2 when they found out someone would probably burn down NOA if they released it.  So they released another game in its place after quickly sticking some Mario sprites in it.  It makes sense they had it turn out to be a dream, it was never intended to be canon.  Keep in mind, this was years before they made Bowser a transsexual or implied that Peace slept with him and produced some freaky cross-species abomination.  They might've actually written canon while sober.

But most important of all, by far...  You're talking about a game based around throwing vegetables at strange little monsters.  It's a litttttle bit different than a story-based RPG where most of the fanbase cares about the plot far more than the mechanics.

I now have the urge to play Mario Kart: Double Dash.


And there's nothing wrong with Mario fighting Goombas while on a Shroom trip. I mean, like, he's throwing fireballs at them! And flying!

[Kaiser Shepard]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That would be quite the nail in the coffin.

 

This. 

If it becomes a "this was all a dream." I'll facepalm. 

Thirded.

If they're going to pull a Keyser Söze, they should've done it within the initial product. Anything else would be extremely weak storytelling.

[megski]

If the 'varric lied' scenario happens and DA2 is completely erased from DA history, doesn't that mean that the creators of the game were just hyping up a game they knew was terrible?

[DreamerM]

For some reason Cassandra doesn't think Varric would lie to her. She's not relying on her threats either, I think, since everybody smart knows pain will just get you the fastest lie to make the pain stop. For whatever reason, she doesn't think Varric's protecting the champion by telling this story.

Making the entire game a story someone else is telling will make retconning parts of it easy when DA3 rolls around. But I hope they don't bring back the "unreliable narrator" part. I like knowing for sure what happens to my characters.

[Foolsfolly]

If Varric lied then DA2 was a complete and abysmal failure.

As is it's just an alright game. But if the entire story is reduced to "HA! Didn't happen." Than the game's disk is only good for being a drink coaster.

[Macropodmum]

I think Varric probably embellished it somewhat but I don't think the whole thing could be a lie (or maker forbid that it didn't happen). I vaguely remember him saying something along the lines of the seekers precious chantry (or system of?) being up in flames at the start, which would indicate that the seeker was wanting to know why and how the champion was involved and Varric was simply the only link to the story she could find.

Combine that with the fact that both Morrigan and Flemeth mentioned a change coming (mages the world over revolting?), Leliana connecting the dissapearance of both warden hero and champion, and I think there is more to the story to be told...

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

If Varric lied then DA2 was a complete and abysmal failure.

As is it's just an alright game. But if the entire story is reduced to "HA! Didn't happen." Than the game's disk is only good for being a drink coaster.

Some people didn't even need the excuse of Varric lying to make DA2 a coaster

[Tommyspa]

Question: Will it be funny when in a future game when you encounter Hawke and ask him/her about Kirkwall and other Hawke stuff when (s)he says "That never happened" or "It didn't happen like that"?

Modifié par Tommyspa, 06 juillet 2011 - 05:53 .