68 réponses à ce sujet

[Relix28]

Yeah.......NO.

[esper]

Varrics story is actually realistic. That kind of powerlessness is easy to be hit by in politics. Besides if they retconned the story, people would be furious over 'their' Hawke being destroyed. If I could imagine something Varric could lie about with my canon Hawke it is that damn bomb. It is a bit weird why Anders think that my very revolutionary-minded Hawke would feel honour-bond to stop him, when she had spoken of nothing, but war from the start of act three, but I could see Varric gloss it over to make Hawke look like more of an unwilling and unknowing accomplises instead of and complete accomplices to murder since he want Cassandra to think he is a hero.
I do, however, think that it is nothing more than a funny thought-experimet. What would Varric lie about with your Hawkes? And why?

[Sajuro]

magelet wrote...

As to the thread title, I will never understand why Hawke was so powerless.

Hawke is powerless because Hawke is just a regular person.

It was something that I liked about this game, because it wasn't like you were some kind of super powerful superhero that could just save the day no matter what; you were just a normal person who was trying to get by, protect your family or whatever.

It made this game different from a lot of video games and it made the story more interesting in my opinion.

This, if I wanted a game where my protaganist was a superhero who could always save the day, I'd play Fable 3, and I do.
But my Hawke's story is about a good (if not snarky) person trying her best to help her family and slowly failing as Bethany is tainted and has to join the Grey Wardens because of her, then struggling to hold on after her mother was murdered by a blood mage and her (sorta) lover isabella abandoned Hawke to save her own skin. By the time of Act 3, she is living with Merrill in her hightown estate, still snarking but in pain from her losses. Trying to defend Merrill, she ends up having to fight her way through Merrill's clan after killing the Keeper. Then she berserks when she learned that her sister was kidnapped by rebelling templars and mages. In the end she basically told Anders to get his ass up and fix the problem he started and after killing both Meredith and Orsino and failing to stop the situation from blowing up, Hawke left with Merrill from Kirkwall since the city had nothing more for her to stay.

[Big I]

Sajuro wrote...

magelet wrote...

As to the thread title, I will never understand why Hawke was so powerless.

Hawke is powerless because Hawke is just a regular person.

It was something that I liked about this game, because it wasn't like you were some kind of super powerful superhero that could just save the day no matter what; you were just a normal person who was trying to get by, protect your family or whatever.

It made this game different from a lot of video games and it made the story more interesting in my opinion.

This, if I wanted a game where my protaganist was a superhero who could always save the day, I'd play Fable 3, and I do.

Hawke is the opposite of an ordinary person. With the exception of maybe three or four plot induced failures there's nothing Hawke can't do. Rescue the Viscount's son while being a penniless refugee? Done. Go deeper into the Deep Roads than the Grey Wardens or the dwarves of Orzammar? Easy. Kill a) a mythical creature, the rock wraith, the military commander of all qunari, and c) a high dragon? All in a days work. Hawke is essentially unstoppable.


For me, that's why instances where Hawke fails to save the day (ogre kills sibling etc) are so jarring. They're incompatible with all other instances of Hawke's behaviour and abilities.

[Sajuro]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

magelet wrote...

As to the thread title, I will never understand why Hawke was so powerless.

Hawke is powerless because Hawke is just a regular person.

It was something that I liked about this game, because it wasn't like you were some kind of super powerful superhero that could just save the day no matter what; you were just a normal person who was trying to get by, protect your family or whatever.

It made this game different from a lot of video games and it made the story more interesting in my opinion.

This, if I wanted a game where my protaganist was a superhero who could always save the day, I'd play Fable 3, and I do.

Hawke is the opposite of an ordinary person. With the exception of maybe three or four plot induced failures there's nothing Hawke can't do. Rescue the Viscount's son while being a penniless refugee? Done. Go deeper into the Deep Roads than the Grey Wardens or the dwarves of Orzammar? Easy. Kill a) a mythical creature, the rock wraith, the military commander of all qunari, and c) a high dragon? All in a days work. Hawke is essentially unstoppable.


For me, that's why instances where Hawke fails to save the day (ogre kills sibling etc) are so jarring. They're incompatible with all other instances of Hawke's behaviour and abilities.

Hawke couldn't save his life when he went to the Chantry, she couldn't turn Merrill from her self destructive path until Merrill had lost the keeper and possibly her whole clan, she can't save her sibling in the deep roads either (Anders is needed to give them the fighting chance of becoming a Grey Warden), she wasn't able to save the workers of the bone pits from any of the disasters that befell them. Hawke is a strong fighter but still fails because things get out of hand and reinforces that even if Hawke could beat down a high dragon, she is still a person and a vulnerable one at that.

[Macropodmum]

Sajuro wrote...

 she couldn't turn Merrill from her self destructive path until Merrill had lost the keeper and possibly her whole clan,

Sorry, a bit off topic but does this mean you can avoid having to butcher your way through her clan?

[Big I]

Sajuro wrote...
Hawke couldn't save his life when he went to the Chantry, she couldn't turn Merrill from her self destructive path until Merrill had lost the keeper and possibly her whole clan, she can't save her sibling in the deep roads either (Anders is needed to give them the fighting chance of becoming a Grey Warden), she wasn't able to save the workers of the bone pits from any of the disasters that befell them. Hawke is a strong fighter but still fails because things get out of hand and reinforces that even if Hawke could beat down a high dragon, she is still a person and a vulnerable one at that.

Those examples if anything underscore Hawke's awesomeness. Aggressive Hawke can actively support the assassination of Seamus, and any Hawke can talk down Merrill's clan from killing her, prevent their sibling from succumbing to the Blight, and is contantly saving the miners. Being a legendary hero doens't mean that the world constanly goes their way, it just means that Hawke can resolve impossible situations in ways other people can't.


EDIT: ^Yes, just pick the conversation option that says Hawke takes responsibility for Merrill's future action, essentially agreeing with the Dalish that it's all Merrill's fault.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:10 .

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

telephasic wrote...

I just saw the interview with David Gaider where he makes the point that Varric was designed to be an unreliable narrator.  In that, he might not have been just fibbing during the inital prologue, but continuing to fib throughout his retelling.  

This got me to thinking about how people are so let down by the ending in Act 3 - that Hawke is powerless to change anything, and presented as a bystander.  At least, that's how Varric presents it. 

Now, why would Varric do this?  To get his friend off the hook!  The chantry believes that Hawke instigated the war between the Templars and the Mages.  Instead, Varric explains that Hawke was essentially an innocent, pushed into his circumstances by accident, not someone who actively chose for his actions to have the tremendous repercussions they did.  

Which raises the question of how much of the story, especially Chapter 3, looked anything like this.  Was the real Hawke actually far more actively involved in picking sides for the conflict?  

Also, people have noted Varric is just so much more likable and better written than the other NPCs.  Well, again he's telling his own story here.  Of course he'd talk up his charisma, and downplay that of the other characters, including Hawke.  

Hell, if you take it far enough, you could excuse some of the shoddy plot elements - Varric simply hadn't had time to put together a good narrative. 

So maybe the big stupid horns and lame tattoos on the Qunari, and the stupid looking elves were just lies told by Varric?  Maybe DA2 will be a dream sequence like that season of Dallas back in the 80's?

Works for me.

[Macropodmum]

Thanks LookingGlass93

[MagnusValkerion]

Does noone here remember dallas? Season 8? That flew fretty darn well.

Damn I hate it when my browser doesn't update the page correctly sorry dread.

Modifié par MagnusValkerion, 13 juillet 2011 - 07:48 .

[Kenshen]

Cassandra already knows most of the story before she even questions Varric. He was brought in to fill in the holes and hopefully tell her where Hawke is. Besides Varric wasn't so much a liar as he was a tall tale teller. He liked to embellish things so people wouldn't forget.

[ScotGaymer]

telephasic wrote...
This got me to thinking about how people are so let down by the ending in Act 3 - that Hawke is powerless to change anything, and presented as a bystander.  At least, that's how Varric presents it. 

Now, why would Varric do this?  To get his friend off the hook!  The chantry believes that Hawke instigated the war between the Templars and the Mages.  Instead, Varric explains that Hawke was essentially an innocent, pushed into his circumstances by accident, not someone who actively chose for his actions to have the tremendous repercussions they did.

I agree this might have been a possibility except for one thing.

It was never presented like this.

If it were like this then the ending ought to have been Cassandra leaving in a huff that her scapegoat wasnt a scapegoat after all; and then Hawke finding Varric after.
Something like this:

Hawke: Did they buy it?
Varric: They did. They think that you had nothing to do with Orsino and Meredith trying to kill each other.
Hawke: Good. Thank you Varric.
Varric: Awe it was nothing. Why'd you do it anyway?
Hawke: The circle had to be broken, Varric. The status quo wasn't working, and Kirkwall was the perfect place to break it.
Varric: For your Father's memory/Sisters' sake?
Hawke: Yes. For Dad/Bethany/Me, and every other chained mage in Thedas.
Varric: What will you/we do now?
Hawke: ...

Ending like that.

Something like that would have explained away the crap ending, and Hawke's seeming lack of choice. Yes it would lock Hawke into being a mage supporter but given his background and the ongoing oppression of the mages in the Circle's it doesnt make sense for him to be anything else.
Having an Apostate dad, an apostate sister, and possibly being an apostate himself even if he was a "bad Hawke" would still make him naturally predisposed towards the Mages no matter what "kind" of person he was.
It would have been more poignant ending than Cassandra talking to Leliana about Hawke and the Warden.

[Agamo45]

I already know why, bad writing and an extremely narrow RPG experience with little to no meaningful choices.

[Marduksdragon]

esper wrote...

Varrics story is actually realistic. That kind of powerlessness is easy to be hit by in politics. Besides if they retconned the story, people would be furious over 'their' Hawke being destroyed. If I could imagine something Varric could lie about with my canon Hawke it is that damn bomb. It is a bit weird why Anders think that my very revolutionary-minded Hawke would feel honour-bond to stop him, when she had spoken of nothing, but war from the start of act three, but I could see Varric gloss it over to make Hawke look like more of an unwilling and unknowing accomplises instead of and complete accomplices to murder since he want Cassandra to think he is a hero.
I do, however, think that it is nothing more than a funny thought-experimet. What would Varric lie about with your Hawkes? And why?

He probably stretched the truth alot with Ygraine, although I'd count outright lies on the low end.

The biggest outright lie would be the glowy evil sword. Never happened. Meredith drank the idol, once it was powdered, because Elthina cut off her lyrium for torturing the mages and her fellow Templars. Idol lyrium drove Meredith crazy as she slowly became transformed by using the stuff. That's my story.

FitScotGaymer wrote...

If
it were like this then the ending ought to have been Cassandra leaving
in a huff that her scapegoat wasnt a scapegoat after all; and then Hawke
finding Varric after.
Something like this:

Hawke: Did they buy it?
Varric: They did. They think that you had nothing to do with Orsino and Meredith trying to kill each other.
Hawke: Good. Thank you Varric.
Varric: Awe it was nothing. Why'd you do it anyway?
Hawke: The circle had to be broken, Varric. The status quo wasn't working, and Kirkwall was the perfect place to break it.
Varric: For your Father's memory/Sisters' sake?
Hawke: Yes. For Dad/Bethany/Me, and every other chained mage in Thedas.
Varric: What will you/we do now?
Hawke: ...

Ending like that.

Something
like that would have explained away the crap ending, and Hawke's
seeming lack of choice. Yes it would lock Hawke into being a mage
supporter but given his background and the ongoing oppression of the
mages in the Circle's it doesnt make sense for him to be anything else.
Having
an Apostate dad, an apostate sister, and possibly being an apostate
himself even if he was a "bad Hawke" would still make him naturally
predisposed towards the Mages no matter what "kind" of person he was.
It would have been more poignant ending than Cassandra talking to Leliana about Hawke and the Warden.

And this would totally invalidate my apostate Ygraine, who did not side with the mages and had a long list of reasons for doing so. So no. I'd rather have something of a choice and be left slightly in the dark.

[TEWR]

I think FitScotGaymer's idea would've worked if it was dependant on which faction you chose, where Varric's dialogue changes depending on which side you took during The Last Straw.

[Marduksdragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think FitScotGaymer's idea would've worked if it was dependant on which faction you chose, where Varric's dialogue changes depending on which side you took during The Last Straw.

Don't really like that either because it would then lock in a reason for Ygraine to have sided with the Templars (like the 'until every mage is free' speech gaymer suggested). I'd rather be able to differentiate that in some DLC to various characters-- or in the next game-- because there's a lot of layers behind the reasoning and they don't fall under "because mages should be subjugated" (ie: if it were simply the reverse of the mage ending, although I don't think the choice we're given is going to end up being that simple once it plays out).

Edit: It would also mean that my Fernando (long story behind the name) would have chosen to free the mages for altruistic reasons, instead of wanting the entire of Thedas on fire and whipping them into a frenzy-- which was his real motivation. The man thrives on chaos and pain.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:41 .

[Jon Jern_]

Seriously, that would be really stupid. Bioware wouldn't waste their time making up a fake story, and then say "No no no, Varric lied! THIS happened...".

[Macropodmum]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

telephasic wrote...
This got me to thinking about how people are so let down by the ending in Act 3 - that Hawke is powerless to change anything, and presented as a bystander.  At least, that's how Varric presents it. 

Now, why would Varric do this?  To get his friend off the hook!  The chantry believes that Hawke instigated the war between the Templars and the Mages.  Instead, Varric explains that Hawke was essentially an innocent, pushed into his circumstances by accident, not someone who actively chose for his actions to have the tremendous repercussions they did.

I agree this might have been a possibility except for one thing.

It was never presented like this.

If it were like this then the ending ought to have been Cassandra leaving in a huff that her scapegoat wasnt a scapegoat after all; and then Hawke finding Varric after.
Something like this:

Hawke: Did they buy it?
Varric: They did. They think that you had nothing to do with Orsino and Meredith trying to kill each other.
Hawke: Good. Thank you Varric.
Varric: Awe it was nothing. Why'd you do it anyway?
Hawke: The circle had to be broken, Varric. The status quo wasn't working, and Kirkwall was the perfect place to break it.
Varric: For your Father's memory/Sisters' sake?
Hawke: Yes. For Dad/Bethany/Me, and every other chained mage in Thedas.
Varric: What will you/we do now?
Hawke: ...

Ending like that.

Something like that would have explained away the crap ending, and Hawke's seeming lack of choice. Yes it would lock Hawke into being a mage supporter but given his background and the ongoing oppression of the mages in the Circle's it doesnt make sense for him to be anything else.
Having an Apostate dad, an apostate sister, and possibly being an apostate himself even if he was a "bad Hawke" would still make him naturally predisposed towards the Mages no matter what "kind" of person he was.
It would have been more poignant ending than Cassandra talking to Leliana about Hawke and the Warden.

I'm glad they didn't end it like that because I certainly would drop future DA games from my list of things to buy.  As much as I consistently feel compelled to support the mages I would never blow up the chantry, and as much as I like Anders I would never have supported him if I knew that was what he was going to do.  On top of that it would have made my choices even less relevant and peeved me no end to think I was forced into doing this against my will.

Modifié par Macropodmum, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:35 .

[Rifneno]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Something like that would have explained away the crap ending, and Hawke's seeming lack of choice. Yes it would lock Hawke into being a mage supporter but given his background and the ongoing oppression of the mages in the Circle's it doesnt make sense for him to be anything else.
Having an Apostate dad, an apostate sister, and possibly being an apostate himself even if he was a "bad Hawke" would still make him naturally predisposed towards the Mages no matter what "kind" of person he was.
It would have been more poignant ending than Cassandra talking to Leliana about Hawke and the Warden.

It makes sense, but too many customers don't want a Hawke who makes sense. Tons of people want their apostate Hawke to be hardcore pro-Chantry, and while I could only describe such as Hawke as "a hypocrite the size of a red supergiant," that's how they want to play. And given that the biggest complaint about DA2 (which is saying something since DA2 was recieved about as well as The Phantom Menace) was the lack of choices mattering, it would be a spectacularly bad decision to take away the choice of which side Hawke picked.

That said, it would be awesome if the twist you posted was an actual option. If we're given it as an option rather than a a set in stone path... I'd love the "was trying to screw over the Chantry the whole time" route.

(And to clarify before I get the obligatory angry response from someone whose Hawke is the omnihypocrite, I'm not judging people for playing how they want, just the fictional chracters.)

Jon Jern wrote...

Seriously, that would be really stupid. Bioware wouldn't waste their time making up a fake story, and then say "No no no, Varric lied! THIS happened...".

A year ago, I would've said the same thing if someone told me they'll resurrect Leliana without an explanation and heavily imply that she was just playing spy with the Warden and the whole thing was an act. So I can't blame people for being a little leary of this possibility.

Honestly, what worried me most was the Sketchy on the Details quest. "Take my advice, don't trust storytellers. Never know what they'll say." Yeah, the obvious explanation is that Leliana accidentally ruined the poor guy's life. But the wording made me wonder if they were planting the seeds for the "Varric lied" twist...