808 réponses à ce sujet

[DaringMoosejaw]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

You jumped in when I was responding to a point about how financial concerns are ultimately a meaningless excuse to treat women as objects, that's what I was talking about. I see the financial concerns as, in fact, paramount to the entire design process. In the end, the art team is part of a business who's job it is to make a profit, not to use their ideas in order to perpetuate women as sex objects. Perhaps, at times, that may occur as a side-effect of the design decision but it is certainly not the primary reason.

Okay, so by your logic why would a game ever choose to not objectify a female character?

When the net-gain is either non-existant or negligable. Or when they quit hiring designers that 'objectify' female characters.

[rapscallioness]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/88476268357619712

"For the next set of #MassEffect3 screenshots, what are you hoping to see most? Ashley in armor? A first look at James Vega? Something else?"

A First look at James Vega? Interesting...but I'm reading into it, aren't I?

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

littlezack wrote...

Also, speaking of Halo - is there any reason that the military has its AI manifest as a sexy woman in a skintight outfit?

The question you should be asking is why Bungie would move from designing AI to look like Cortana to designing AI to look like Serena.

[littlezack]

She's wearing clothes, I call that a step up.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

You jumped in when I was responding to a point about how financial concerns are ultimately a meaningless excuse to treat women as objects, that's what I was talking about. I see the financial concerns as, in fact, paramount to the entire design process. In the end, the art team is part of a business who's job it is to make a profit, not to use their ideas in order to perpetuate women as sex objects. Perhaps, at times, that may occur as a side-effect of the design decision but it is certainly not the primary reason.

Okay, so by your logic why would a game ever choose to not objectify a female character?

When the net-gain is either non-existant or negligable. Or when they quit hiring designers that 'objectify' female characters.

And that's the whole point. Exactly who is this mythical demographic who will buy a 50-hour long dialogue-heavy RPG because the woman on the box is wearing a skintight outfit? Even if Bioware's apparently courting the Gears of War demographic, why not include women in armor if that's part of the game that worked for Gears of War?

[littlezack]

And one more thing, about objectification - one of the key aspects of objectification is reducing a person and judging them solely by how they look.

reduction to appearance: the treatment of a person primarily in terms of how they look, or how they appear to the senses;

By placing so much emphasis on the way Ashley looks and taking that and that alone to mean her character is ruined, you are, basically, objectifying her.

Modifié par littlezack, 06 juillet 2011 - 06:51 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

littlezack wrote...

She's wearing clothes, I call that a step up.

Yeah - I've noticed that in general Bungie moved away from the whole female objectification thing since the first Halo. Cortana's a little ridiculous, but you get the impression Bungie realized that since they don't design characters like her anymore. So the question remains why Bioware hasn't done the same.

[littlezack]

Ashley's clothing isn't any worse than what Serena's wearing.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

littlezack wrote...

And one more thing, about objectification - one of the key aspects of objectification is reducing a person and judging them solely by how they look.

reduction to appearance: the treatment of a person primarily in terms of how they look, or how they appear to the senses;

By placing so much emphasis on the way Ashley acts and taking that and that alone to mean her character is ruined, you are, basically, objectifying her.

That's an old, discredited, argument, sorry to say. The short (and hugely, hugely oversimplified) version is that any given representation can choose to represent a character as a human being or as a collection of body parts. If it's doing one, chances are it's not doing the other. (For the record, I don't think the new Ash uniform is hugely objectifying - it's not in the same league as Miranda. But, as other people have pointed out, you could basically use this image to teach about how men and women are represented in media.)

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

littlezack wrote...

Ashley's clothing isn't any worse than what Serena's wearing.

Serena or Cortana are basically the haloverse equivalent to Avina.

The equivalent to someone like Ash would be a marine or a Spartan. Female versions of both:





So yeah, it's a little below what Bungie usually does. As mentioned before, I don't think that it's the worst female design I've seen from Bioware by a long shot.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 06 juillet 2011 - 07:02 .

[Massadonious1]

They put a Spartan in Spartan armor? Color me shocked.

I'm sure Bungie will accept the praise, regardless.

[littlezack]

 As a guy who reads a lot of comic books, the concept of a woman in somewhat..revealing clothing isn't new to me. And yes, some of them are made up for pure titallation, but others still - Power GIrl, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, et cetera - can dress like they do and still come across as competent, strong, intelligent women, so long as they've got the right writer handling the job. 

Just because Ashley's in that dress, doesn't mean she automatically devolves into some mindless fawn. To assume that or anything close is just silly.

[littlezack]

Avina's designed for civilian use, though - she's probably designed that way to give off a pleasant vibe. Cortana's meant for military use.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Massadonious1 wrote...

They put a Spartan in Spartan armor? Color me shocked.

I'm sure Bungie will accept the praise, regardless.

Lol, I hardly think that Halo's a shining example of how to portray women in games. *cough*Cortana*cough.* Call it more of a "bare minimum before it starts annoying me." So my thoughts are less "yay she's a Spartan and she's wearing armor" and more "wtf she's a Spectre and she's the only one in the picture not wearing armor." But once again, they'll actually include armor in the final game, and I'll reserve judgment on the armor until then.

Of course, I think that what Ash is wearing in the picture is silly in a combat or non-combat context, but that has less to do with objectification and more to do with the clothes looking like nothing in particular. (I.e., not a dress uniform, not fatigues, not some kind of civilian thing, and not something you'd wear while getting shot at.)

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

littlezack wrote...

 As a guy who reads a lot of comic books, the concept of a woman in somewhat..revealing clothing isn't new to me. And yes, some of them are made up for pure titallation, but others still - Power GIrl, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, et cetera - can dress like they do and still come across as competent, strong, intelligent women, so long as they've got the right writer handling the job. 

Just because Ashley's in that dress, doesn't mean she automatically devolves into some mindless fawn. To assume that or anything close is just silly.

There's also the issue of mixed messages. You can have writing that tells you that a character is intelligent and competent, and visuals that tell you she's a sex object. But honestly, this debate has ocurred over and over again, and the question is less "does objectification exist?" (answer: yes) and more "how should people portray female characters in media?"

[Manic Sheep]

littlezack wrote...

 As a guy who reads a lot of comic books, the concept of a woman in somewhat..revealing clothing isn't new to me. And yes, some of them are made up for pure titallation, but others still - Power GIrl, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, et cetera - can dress like they do and still come across as competent, strong, intelligent women, so long as they've got the right writer handling the job. 

Just because Ashley's in that dress, doesn't mean she automatically devolves into some mindless fawn. To assume that or anything close is just silly.

Most people aren’t assuming that but that doesn’t make her coat with a little bit of metal glued to her shoulders anymore fitting for her role.

 

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 06 juillet 2011 - 07:18 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

littlezack wrote...

Avina's designed for civilian use, though - she's probably designed that way to give off a pleasant vibe. Cortana's meant for military use.

Although, look at Avina - it's pretty clear that she's designed to look like Cortana. She's got the color scheme, the stripes, and everything.

But this is a side-issue of a side-issue - the main question is: "can Mass Effect make the choice to design women in a non-sexist manner?" If you look at the games ME3's competing with from the shooter side and the games it's competing with from the sci-fi RPG side (mostly Human Revolution) the answer is pretty clearly "yes."

[littlezack]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

littlezack wrote...

 As a guy who reads a lot of comic books, the concept of a woman in somewhat..revealing clothing isn't new to me. And yes, some of them are made up for pure titallation, but others still - Power GIrl, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, et cetera - can dress like they do and still come across as competent, strong, intelligent women, so long as they've got the right writer handling the job. 

Just because Ashley's in that dress, doesn't mean she automatically devolves into some mindless fawn. To assume that or anything close is just silly.

There's also the issue of mixed messages. You can have writing that tells you that a character is intelligent and competent, and visuals that tell you she's a sex object. But honestly, this debate has ocurred over and over again, and the question is less "does objectification exist?" (answer: yes) and more "how should people portray female characters in media?"

Hm. You make a civil argument. I will engage you, sir.

While I understand the argument against it, I think we do ourselves an injustice by moving over to the other extreme - surely, there is a limit, but I don't think every single woman in a videogame should dress like a nun. Some women prefer to dress sexy. That's their thing. People are more than what they dress - ultimately, it's what they do and how they act that defines them. I think we do ourselves a grave disservice by looking at a character design and immediately dismissing the character based on looks alone. The entire package should be taken into account.

[littlezack]

Also, one thing I think is worth mentioning is that we don't know exactly what she's doing as a Spectre. We're assuming that her role is interchangeable with Kaiden, but if it's not and Ashley is doing more low-key work, it might behoove her to wear an outfit like that - a woman walking around in bulky armor tends to draw attention.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

littlezack wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

littlezack wrote...

 As a guy who reads a lot of comic books, the concept of a woman in somewhat..revealing clothing isn't new to me. And yes, some of them are made up for pure titallation, but others still - Power GIrl, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, et cetera - can dress like they do and still come across as competent, strong, intelligent women, so long as they've got the right writer handling the job. 

Just because Ashley's in that dress, doesn't mean she automatically devolves into some mindless fawn. To assume that or anything close is just silly.

There's also the issue of mixed messages. You can have writing that tells you that a character is intelligent and competent, and visuals that tell you she's a sex object. But honestly, this debate has ocurred over and over again, and the question is less "does objectification exist?" (answer: yes) and more "how should people portray female characters in media?"

Hm. You make a civil argument. I will engage you, sir.

While I understand the argument against it, I think we do ourselves an injustice by moving over to the other extreme - surely, there is a limit, but I don't think every single woman in a videogame should dress like a nun. Some women prefer to dress sexy. That's their thing. People are more than what they dress - ultimately, it's what they do and how they act that defines them. I think we do ourselves a grave disservice by looking at a character design and immediately dismissing the character based on looks alone. The entire package should be taken into account.

I agree with that - I'm not saying "dismiss the character based on the visual design," I'm saying "make sure the visual design fits the character." But let's put it this way: I think there are a lot more scantily clad female characters in pretty much every medium than there are female characters which make sense as scantily clad.

[Savber100]

*cough*

While you guys were arguing, Hudson has asked US whether we want to first see screenshots of Ashley in armor, a first look of James Vega, or something else?

Hurry up and go tell Bioware what you want.

[Savber100]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

*cough*

While you guys were arguing, Hudson has asked US whether we want to first see screenshots of Ashley in armor, a first look of James Vega, or something else?

Hurry up and go tell Bioware what you want.

We need to see Ash first in armor, just to relieve our minds. Where did he ask this?

Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson

Better hurry... it seems that most of them wants to see Femshep or Vega first.

[CroGamer002]

Ashley needs an armor.
Kaidan needs to get lighter armor.
Liara shouldn't look like a Justicar.
Vega looks perfect.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

*cough*

While you guys were arguing, Hudson has asked US whether we want to first see screenshots of Ashley in armor, a first look of James Vega, or something else?

Hurry up and go tell Bioware what you want.

We need to see Ash first in armor, just to relieve our minds. Where did he ask this?

On twitter, I think. So if you have a twitter account, let him know.