808 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

Eromenos wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Warlock Adam wrote...

...you don't get it.

It's bioware's game. Not yours. It's bioware's character, not yours. They've even confirmed in several ways that Ashley will have armor. And you're putting your fingers in your ears and singing, instead of...excuse me..."getting off of your own soapbox."

Do you think you can design Ashley better than her creators?

Some of us don't accept filth being forced-fed on us as if we don't know any better. Some of us detect the presence of filth in that picture because we're not so craven as to bow for some proprietary mystique of BioWare's, which you believe is yours to uphold all because you appreciate the misogynistic catsuit.

Let's not pretend that their being at the helm is any excuse for them to pull this crap against female characters. There's nothing to stop anyone from calling BS when it's this bad.

STOP!  Do you understand how the hell you sound?

Everything you say is essentially just tearing down woman yourself!  Everyone of your suggestions involve "Women shouldn't be like this."  Are you just too dense to notice the hypocrisy?  You're not doing any good, even if you think your somehow improving everything for women.

Hour glass this, hour glass that!  for some reason the word seems to ring with so much contempt when you use it.

Excuse me. You assume that I follow the line of thinking that my detractors here use for themselves. They tell themselves that these characters are real people who made these decisions to play up to sex-toy imagery for men. Whereas, I say these characters are BioWare's toys and they've demonstrated zero compunctions about blatantly exploiting female-characters to gratify dudebro audiences.

When I bring up the hourglass-factor I do it to emphasize how idiotic it is to overvalue that attribute at the cost of shoving women-fighters into stupid catsuits. Jane Shepard, Ashley Williams, and Liara T'Soni demonstrated in ME1 that it is entirely possible to have hourglasses while still being fully-armored and protected. They had hourglasses and definite female curves which was awesome, but those were parts of their appearances, not the ridiculous selling-points from ME2 and now ME3.

This isn't me going "Women shouldn't be like this." This is me going "BioWare is contemptible because they force women to be like this."

The moment you tell yourself that the buck does not stop with these characters, but rather with the cavalier and irresponsible ME devs, you'll get it.

No,  I have never seen you once say anything positive about women.  One of my last conversations with you involved the words fake lesbians and you kept going on and on about hour glass this and hour glass that.  I have never seen you stick your two sense in a thread that actually dealt with feminine issue outside of offering criticism to the portrayal of one woman or another and simply saying it was pandering.  Listen,  if the female form makes you uncomfortable more power to  you,  but,  stop veiling it in this feminist ****.  Or if your really so concerned talk about something else.

Truthfully,  I’m not sure I’ve seen you EVER say anything positive about Bioware.  You made disparaging comments to Gaider just a few hours ago.  Why the hell do you even play these games,  you seem to only have contempt for EVERYTHING involved in them,  well outside of Kaidan and Alistair.

[crimzontearz]

Obvakhi wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

1: go to a marine, ANY marine, male or female, and tell them "hey, we are going into a combat zone, you'll be frontline....here's your newly issued clothes" and give them what Ash is wearing in that screen......I dare you

Comparing real life with a video game set in the distant future? Come on.

given that Bioware calls Mass Effect a Sci FI game and not a Sci FAN game? yeah.

Given that Bioware went out of their way to explain WHY armor was needed in a ME1 codex entry? Definitely (notice ME1 is set only 2 years prior to ME2)


oh and as a reference, here..from another famous Sci Fi game



I never get tired of that image

[AppleBanana]

crimzontearz wrote...

uhhhhhhh

how exactly?

it is a space station, it is apparently sealed, the reaper tech allows it to be within the glactic core through unimaginably powerful mass effect fields

are you implying there "can't" be oxygen there because of the location? if so then there should not be any oxygen on the citadel either

are you implying the Collector base does not have some sort of hydroponic centre?

could you at the very least explain yourself?

OK, So I put off replying to this because I didn't want to get drawn into an argument with a blindsighted idiot.

There is no oxygen at the centre of the galaxy. Fact.
There was no oxygen on the Collector Ship
The Citadel's oxygen is mentioned in the codex
There was no mention of oxygen on the Collector base or Ship in the codex

Why is this so difficult?

[habitat 67]

Serious question: is Ashley sporting the botox smile? She looks slightly wonky.

[littlezack]

King Zeel wrote...

Going on the record here: I don't mind ashley armor-less.


Sue me?

...I agree with King Zeel.

I...I need a moment. I need to lay down.

[crimzontearz]

AppleBanana wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

uhhhhhhh

how exactly?

it is a space station, it is apparently sealed, the reaper tech allows it to be within the glactic core through unimaginably powerful mass effect fields

are you implying there "can't" be oxygen there because of the location? if so then there should not be any oxygen on the citadel either

are you implying the Collector base does not have some sort of hydroponic centre?

could you at the very least explain yourself?

OK, So I put off replying to this because I didn't want to get drawn into an argument with a blindsighted idiot.

There is no oxygen at the centre of the galaxy. Fact.
There was no oxygen on the Collector Ship
The Citadel's oxygen is mentioned in the codex
There was no mention of oxygen on the Collector base or Ship in the codex

Why is this so difficult?

maybe Bioware assumed we did not need another Codex Entry for a specestation having oxygen? you know just throwing it there....

are you implying the collectors are considerably less technologically advanced? not really feasable since they are puppets of the reapers and were engineered by them. 

Did we get a Codex Entry about the collectors not breathing at all? Last time I checked we did not


but good work my chap, you are collecting one report after another

[the_one_54321]

Thanks for getting the thread locked, guys.

[Rahmiel]

I think.. I think I can solve everything here.

If people want the looks of female characters to be as they are from ME1 (ashley, shepard, liara, wtfe else) then how about you play ME1? The rest of us will see how the series evolves.

Man, people rage over the littlest things.

IMO: good work BW. I like the new appearances, Ash looks great. Nice to see her softer side and that she's not a one dimensional character. Not a fan of the colours of liara, but it's a good look nonetheless. Kaiden looks amazing for a dead guy.. >.>

[Obvakhi]

crimzontearz wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

1: go to a marine, ANY marine, male or female, and tell them "hey, we are going into a combat zone, you'll be frontline....here's your newly issued clothes" and give them what Ash is wearing in that screen......I dare you

Comparing real life with a video game set in the distant future? Come on.

given that Bioware calls Mass Effect a Sci FI game and not a Sci FAN game? yeah.

Given that Bioware went out of their way to explain WHY armor was needed in a ME1 codex entry? Definitely (notice ME1 is set only 2 years prior to ME2)


oh and as a reference, here..from another famous Sci Fi game



I never get tired of that image

You're right...  Science Fiction. Everything is fiction, including the codex.
And I don't know why you keep posting that image. Nobody cares... if you like it so much then go play Halo.

[AppleBanana]

littlezack wrote...

I...I need a moment. I need to lay down.

Would you like a breathe mask aswell?

[Iakus]

habitat 67 wrote...

Serious question: is Ashley sporting the botox smile? She looks slightly wonky.

I'm...not really sure.  But given all the characters look goofy at some point in the game, I'm not too concerned about that.

[TheKillerAngel]

Siansonea II wrote...

By the way, I tried my hand at a new outfit for Ashley, and I decided to give her blonde hair, just for variety. I think this could work for most combat situations, and maybe also for aboard the Normandy:



Is she too covered up? I can accept criticism, so feel free to give feedback, this is a work-in-progress...[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

That's a straw man argument and you should reconsider how you deliver your point. Few, if any people, saying Ashley should be wearing a space-bikini, but you are mischaracterizing your opposition's majority views as such.

Eromenos wrote...

IndigoWolfe wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

As for Liara, they should do away with trying to justify the ME2 "armor headband." And aim to recolor her outfit so that it doesn't try to riduculously emphasize her femininity. We can appreciate her curves just fine with the way her white labcoat is done. Tasteful. This red-version is not.

Okay, how exactly does the color scheme of Liara's armor suddenly make it exploitive?

Fair question!

The way her white labcoat is presented does not oversell the fact that she's female with an hourglass figure. The way her red labcoat's coloring is arranged is done precisely to emphasize that she's an hourglass who may or may not use guns.

With the way the colors are arrayed on her in this picture, do we ever see male combat outfits being depicted in this way that emphasizes the sexuality of their bodies above all else? Nope. So why should female characters alone be targeted for this thankless responsibility that thus far segregates them into titillation-toys?

I disagree with you. First, on your assessment that Liara's outfit is excessively sexual - I don't think the color contrast really made me think that. Maybe it did for you, but I, and I am sure many other guys, would just see it as a purple/red outfit and nothing more.

More importantly, I disagree with your assessment that male combat outfits don't emphasize their physical/sexual masculinity. Ways of expressing sexual attraction in male characters are not nearly as obvious as for women but they are almost certainly present in so many games. The reason men don't complain about their consistent depiction in media as hypermasculine, handsome heroes with epic shoulders is that they generally enjoy being able to take on such roles. Guy's don't want to play as 45 year old Joe with graying hair and a slight beer belly.

I must establish that what is physically attractive for women cannot just be assumed as the same for men. Just making a man really scantily clad isn't necessarily going to make him more attractive because for the average woman, intangible factors such as prestige, personality, and power matter a lot more than just raw physical appearance. 

For one, practically every male character has an ideal figure - narrow waist, broad shoulders, and often, their armor emphasizes or exaggerates the size of their shoulders while minimizing the waist to give a "V-shaped" appearance. This is why Jacob has "armor" on his shoulders and Shepard's ME3 armor is like this:



There is no good reason for his shoulderplates to be bulging out like that and plated up so much, if not to emphasize his masculinity. Compare that to the armor on his waist/torso, which is rather minimized, yet far more important. In the military you are taught to aim at center of mass, and issued body armor places the most protection on the torso. It's where your vital organs are - not your shoulders, and is thus far more deserving of heavy protection.

Heck, a lot of infantry aren't even issued shoulder armor.

Realistically, shoulder armor like that would impair movement significantly, not to mention to extra weight added. There is a video of Holly Conrad testing out her Shepard outfit and she comments about how she cannot move her arms that easily.

Modifié par TheKillerAngel, 06 juillet 2011 - 01:06 .

[Eromenos]

SimplyNeo wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Warlock Adam wrote...

...you don't get it.

It's bioware's game. Not yours. It's bioware's character, not yours. They've even confirmed in several ways that Ashley will have armor. And you're putting your fingers in your ears and singing, instead of...excuse me..."getting off of your own soapbox."

Do you think you can design Ashley better than her creators?

Some of us don't accept filth being forced-fed on us as if we don't know any better. Some of us detect the presence of filth in that picture because we're not so craven as to bow for some proprietary mystique of BioWare's, which you believe is yours to uphold all because you appreciate the misogynistic catsuit.

Let's not pretend that their being at the helm is any excuse for them to pull this crap against female characters. There's nothing to stop anyone from calling BS when it's this bad.

Although, I do not agree with your overall opinion, I can understand your stance and comments.

However, I have to say I just do not understand the word usage.  Filth is a very, very strong word to use in this instance.  It would be one thing is she was dressed with exposed stomach and legs and her zipper was halfway down, but as an outfit it is not filthy at all.  Now, would I like Ashley to wear it while fighting some husks? No.  But I could not disagree more with your use of that word considering other outfits that can be found in the ME universe.

Ashley's appearance does not need to be some "extreme" Dead Or Alive Beach Volleyball or Princess Leia slave-bikini in order to qualify as unworthy exploitation on BioWare's part. For her to be in anything less than a combat hardsuit for the sake of titillation is enough for this situation to count as filth. And why not? It was made for dudebros when they originally insisted on it for Miranda, and it's also being done for the sake of dudebros now that they're forcing Ashley into it.

The outfit is unbefitting her character. That combined with BioWare's motivations for going through with it renders the outcome as filth. I've used "trash" before, not sure why that didn't generate this reaction. Hmmm. "Filth" probably makes me sound like a prude. *shrug*

Sadly, the outfit itself is fine. In fact it would look quite suitable on female civilians. Its appearance on Ashley reminds me a lot of Dr. Aki Ross from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. Given that Hudson admitted recently how the ME-universe is largely based on that movie(I always loved the movie, btw), I wouldn't be surprised if the Ashley-version of Miranda's catsuit had begun as a misguided appreciation for Dr. Ross. The doctor was a non-military civilian. Ashley is a Spectre with a background in the Marines, so...ARMOR.

Modifié par Eromenos, 06 juillet 2011 - 01:05 .

[crimzontearz]

Obvakhi wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

1: go to a marine, ANY marine, male or female, and tell them "hey, we are going into a combat zone, you'll be frontline....here's your newly issued clothes" and give them what Ash is wearing in that screen......I dare you

Comparing real life with a video game set in the distant future? Come on.

given that Bioware calls Mass Effect a Sci FI game and not a Sci FAN game? yeah.

Given that Bioware went out of their way to explain WHY armor was needed in a ME1 codex entry? Definitely (notice ME1 is set only 2 years prior to ME2)


oh and as a reference, here..from another famous Sci Fi game



I never get tired of that image

You're right...  Science Fiction. Everything is fiction, including the codex.
And I don't know why you keep posting that image. Nobody cares... if you like it so much then go play Halo.

yes hence why people are rather upset. Bioware created the lore then just kicked dirt at it for the sake of the rule of cool

also, it has nothing to do with halo but with Bungie actually putting some thought in the design of a female marine

[Savber100]

marshalleck wrote...

Ashley's armor looks great, solid improvement over the pink and white crap the supposedly "non-girly, srs business soldier" was wearing before.

Huh.. I'm surprised you liked the new armor, marshalleck... 

I was half-expecting people like you to be tearing Bioware a new one for exploiting females.
 

Unless that was sarcasm and I just totally missed it. 

[AppleBanana]

I'm out, my Kotor 2 download just finished. Much better than its predecessor.

[Chuvvy]

Obvakhi wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...




I never get tired of that image

You're right...  Science Fiction. Everything is fiction, including the codex.
And I don't know why you keep posting that image. Nobody cares... if you like it so much then go play Halo.

Someone makes a a decent post, that makes a point, the point being you can make female armor look good, and look effective, and you shoot it down because it's Halo related. Awesome.

[MrDbow]

Eromenos wrote...

SimplyNeo wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Warlock Adam wrote...

...you don't get it.

It's bioware's game. Not yours. It's bioware's character, not yours. They've even confirmed in several ways that Ashley will have armor. And you're putting your fingers in your ears and singing, instead of...excuse me..."getting off of your own soapbox."

Do you think you can design Ashley better than her creators?

Some of us don't accept filth being forced-fed on us as if we don't know any better. Some of us detect the presence of filth in that picture because we're not so craven as to bow for some proprietary mystique of BioWare's, which you believe is yours to uphold all because you appreciate the misogynistic catsuit.

Let's not pretend that their being at the helm is any excuse for them to pull this crap against female characters. There's nothing to stop anyone from calling BS when it's this bad.

Although, I do not agree with your overall opinion, I can understand your stance and comments.

However, I have to say I just do not understand the word usage.  Filth is a very, very strong word to use in this instance.  It would be one thing is she was dressed with exposed stomach and legs and her zipper was halfway down, but as an outfit it is not filthy at all.  Now, would I like Ashley to wear it while fighting some husks? No.  But I could not disagree more with your use of that word considering other outfits that can be found in the ME universe.

Ashley's appearance does not need to be some "extreme" Dead Or Alive Beach Volleyball or Princess Leia slave-bikini in order to qualify as unworthy exploitation on BioWare's part. For her to be in anything less than a combat hardsuit for the sake of titillation is enough for this situation to count as filth. And why not? It was made for dudebros when they originally insisted on it for Miranda, and it's also being done for the sake of dudebros now that they're forcing Ashley into it.

The outfit is unbefitting her character. That combined with BioWare's motivations for going through with it renders the outcome as filth. I've used "trash" before, not sure why that didn't generate this reaction. Hmmm. "Filth" probably makes me sound like a prude. *shrug*

Sadly, the outfit itself is fine. In fact it would look quite suitable on female civilians. Its appearance on Ashley reminds me a lot of Dr. Aki Ross from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. Given that Hudson admitted recently how the ME-universe is largely based on that movie(I always loved the movie, btw), I wouldn't be surprised if the Ashley-version of Miranda's catsuit had begun as a misguided appreciation for Dr. Ross. The doctor was a non-military civilian. Ashley is a Spectre with a background in the Marines, so...ARMOR.

I did not pick up on your use of the word "trash."  "Filth," though, does have more impact, especially when I see an outfit that is not "filthy" in my opinion.  The Dr. Aki Ross reference is pretty dead on actually, although it wasn't Hudson that mentioned the FFTSW reference as it was [DATA NOT AVAILABLE]. 

I mentioned this before, but in your opinion, if you first saw this picture or outfit and she was NOT holding a rifle, would you deem it appropriate for her?  There has been no confirmation (and correct me if I am wrong) if this particular outfit in question is combat/casual/Trial-wear/party specific.

[marshalleck]

Pfft. Where's the outrage over Vega's fauxhawk? That's probably the most egregious design concept of any of these characters.

[Someone With Mass]

Obvakhi wrote...

You're right...  Science Fiction. Everything is fiction, including the codex.
And I don't know why you keep posting that image. Nobody cares... if you like it so much then go play Halo.

Just because it's fiction doesn't mean it can pull stuff out of its ass with no logic or reason. Women in the military (even fictional military) will get shot at just as much as men, and they should at least pretend they are aware of it instead of just strutting around in skin-tight suits.

[Terastar]

I posted this on another thread by mistake so I will post it here where it was meant to be.Mr. Hudson stated that this was a color check. I think that this is the background screen that will have your characters to select from. I think they wanted to make sure that the colors would work will so they were testing it. You would not want Liara who is blue to fade into the background and then see a pair of eyes and a suit to select for her would you? The armor has different "shines" to it as well as the gun that Ash is holding. This was a test strip to check these kind of things out and not the final armor and face of the characters.

[Eromenos]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

This is getting beyond absurd. Do the people who have problems with Ashley's outfit have to express so much contempt for everyone else. Some people have laid out very clear reasons why they don't like it. Some people are concerned about the treatment of her character and I can understand and appreciate that.

However some people are coming in here on their pedestal. They sit here and preach about how they know what's best for not only Ashley's character, but for all women. That is unfair and narrow minded. The measure of an individual is their actions, not their clothes. If you have ever refused to take someone seriously because of their clothing then you are only looking at a shallow portion of what makes an individual. You all have no idea how Ashley will act in Mass Effect 3. She could very well be the same person who we all know. You are going around bashing this as if it will somehow shake the core of her character. I don't know this for sure, and no I have no evidence to back this up but I firmly believe she will still be the same. She will still have strong opinions and stick by her moral code.

As for the people who don't believe the tweets about Ashley's armor, please take a couple of days to cool down and wait for some evidence. I understand skepticism but to outright call them liars is unfair and rude to the people who make the series you claim to be fans of.

It's all so silly, and please for the people who are annoyed by all the complaints from these people don't flame them. Just enjoy the news and be happy about it, their complaints and occasional vitriol should not color your enthusiasm about Mass Effect 3 news. Now can we all attempt to return to more civil grounds before this argument gets way too out of hand.

Please explain; what good comes from targeting women to be sole blatant sex-symbols at the cost of rendering them into hourglasses who have the sci-fi equivalent of chain-mail bikinis while they're supposed to be running and gunning to the death? Who benefits here?

[Chuvvy]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

You're right...  Science Fiction. Everything is fiction, including the codex.
And I don't know why you keep posting that image. Nobody cares... if you like it so much then go play Halo.

Just because it's fiction doesn't mean it can pull stuff out of its ass with no logic or reason. Women in the military (even fictional military) will get shot at just as much as men, and they should at least pretend they are aware of it instead of just strutting around in skin-tight suits.

I realized something last night, Kaiden's wearing way more armor than ash, even though he's a biotic and she's a soldier.