52 réponses à ce sujet

[MegaBadExample]

I'd only date if we get along.

The only way this can happen is if you persue them.
...And that doesn't make any sense. When the business went down...Shepard stole the Normandy like a pirate, (Har Har) disobeying orders, and his crew still followed him even though it was considered treason. Do you think they would do that to get a promotion? No.So rank/role never really mattered to them.

[Nodscouter]

Dating your superiors...
heavy risk, but the priiiize...

[dantares83]

i don't mean that Ashley and Kaidan doing it to get promotions, I mean in real life, you will try to avoid these relationships, no?

[Repearized Miranda]

dantares83 wrote...

i don't mean that Ashley and Kaidan doing it to get promotions, I mean in real life, you will try to avoid these relationships, no?

Unless done discreetly!

Seriously, you would because you'd get ridiculed for being your superior's pet; yet, often times, the "second in command" (date) is your go-to

Now, let's reverse this question. What's your opinion on dating your subordinates as it takes two to tango? Would they try to avoid this?

[AerisBru]

Almost done it once. And yes, i hesitated a lot because of the hierarchy thing (and gave up not because he was my boss, but because he was married - and that I can't tolerate).

I don't see a problem per se, but it really has a potential for annoyances and to hurt a career.

[Fidget6]

AurinShepard wrote...
But I also know how to separate work and my private life.

Ah, but that's the precise reason why (for me at least) I wouldn't do it. If you start dating your boss all of a sudden your professional life starts to make its way into your private life as well. Best to never get into it to begin with in my opinion.

Modifié par Fidget6, 10 juillet 2011 - 12:06 .

[ShepardsIdol]

DWH1982 wrote...

The military tends to discourage these types of relationships for other reasons.

Virmire is a good example. Do you really think that a Shepard who was interested in Ash or Kaidan was capable of making an unbiased decision? I'll be frank... I wanted to romance Ash, and I rescued Ash. I have my arguments for that decision, but I'm not 100% sure I didn't just construct them around saving the character I wanted to save for romance reasons. That's okay for a video game, not so great for a "real life" scenario.

In real life, I would consider dating my superior IF I felt we clicked, IF I thought she would be open to it, and IF there were no policy against it where I worked. Life's too short to care about what other people think.

I completely agree. The Marines dont allow women in combat roles for this exact reason. We are naturally are protective and making a level headed decision when the mission is on the line is highly doubtful. I saved Ash for the same reason, but i also kept her with the bomb because i anticipated a (Save the mission or your woman) decision on the horizon. Murphy's laws of combat reminded me that if missions go to well, then its probably an ambush, and Murphy was right. I would, like DWH1982, hook up with my superior under those conditions. Plus if it really is love and there are rules against our relationship, one of us could always give up our rank and go civilian. I would leave that to the lower ranked individual or whoever has least military influence. If Ash were my superior, i would be out of the Corps faster than you could say: "Dishonorable Discharge"

[Creativechick113]

I'm wondering if this will be something they address in ME3. Reason being, is that technically the only time Shepard and Kaidan/Ashley decided to let their relationship go anywhere was after they had become fugitives.

And then, after ME1 when they were will the Alliance again, the survivor mentions "that night" like it wasn't a regular thing. Who is to say that they were ever involved after that one stand? They may have had feelings for each other, but they also may have made it clear that it wasn't something that could continue. It my opinion, it would explain that way a lot of things went down in ME2 between the VS and Shep. (If they were romanced of course)

[Dean_the_Young]

No. And more importantly, I wouldn't date a subordinate.

[Xeranx]

Paula Deen wrote...

DWH1982 wrote...

The military tends to discourage these types of relationships for other reasons.

Virmire is a good example. Do you really think that a Shepard who was interested in Ash or Kaidan was capable of making an unbiased decision? I'll be frank... I wanted to romance Ash, and I rescued Ash. I have my arguments for that decision, but I'm not 100% sure I didn't just construct them around saving the character I wanted to save for romance reasons. That's okay for a video game, not so great for a "real life" scenario.

In real life, I would consider dating my superior IF I felt we clicked, IF I thought she would be open to it, and IF there were no policy against it where I worked. Life's too short to care about what other people think.

I think it's possible to make an unbiased conclusion--but actually making the decision is so much harder.

In all fairness, Ash/Kaidan don't actually make any sort of official relationship with Shepard until the suicide mission to Ilos. I think, in all fairness, when the world is ending and you're probably not going to survive, it doesn't really matter.

But back to Virmire: going through all the details, saving whoever is with the STG is the logical choice. The bomb is designed to be nearly impervious to damage and nearly impossible to disarm (which makes sense; if it's made from a drive core, it's probably designed like an overloaded reactor), not to mention that you have an elite soldeir guarding it. The STG and Ash/Kaidan comprise of a lot of lives. Since it's about saving the most lives, they're the logical choice.

So, really, it depends on who you think is best suited to go with the STG in the context of the mission. I personally think Kaidan is; the diversionary team could really use a Sentinel with special forces training. I actually chose Ash on my main playthrough, though, because I hadn't come to that conclusion at the time.

But it could really go either way. Kirrahe says that the bomb is harder to disarm depending on who arms it; so maybe Kaidan is the better choice to take with you.

Lastly, if Ash is with the STG, she says (before you make the choice) "Screw that! We can handle ourselves!" If you believe her, then you save Kaidan. But if you don't, when you get there you see that she was very wrong.

This is why during my first run I saved Ashley.  My first run through was a female Shepard.  I'm not familiar with military hierarchy so it never occurred to me to save the most superior subordinate.  I listened to the game on Virmire when Ashley said that Kaidan was the best suited for the bomb because of his tech skills.  I figured she was right because of the comment made earlier about Ashley's combat skills.  I figured she'd be the best to cover the STG team.

So when the time came to save Kaidan or Ashley I was confused as to what to do.  I didn't find Kaidan very interesting and I considered Ashley a b!tch.  I almost went for Kaidan and then I thought of the STG group and how no one would know who they were if they all died.  I chose Ashley and the STG team.  Imagine my surprise many playthroughs later when I finally decided, "let me see what saving Kaidan is like" and later on in the cargo hold I find Kirahee and his team there.  I seriously would have saved Kaidan the first time through if I'd known Kirahee survives even if he's clearly on the other side from Kaidan and the bomb.  It actually spoils the whole aspect of the choice there actually.

[AquamanOS]

Maybe it's because I'm not military nor part of a clear ranked worked structure but I never saw the problem myself.

In ME1 only Kaiden or Ashley are the problem, but Shepard is at that point being phased out of the Alliance into the Spectres. He/she was only given the Normandy and alliance crew because of time constraints on the first mission. Presumably had Saren been put down and their been no Reaper threat, so the galaxy went back to business as usual Shepard would have lost the Normandy and been forced to work as an independant Spectre. Then unless dating a special goverment agent as a military officer carries a stigma (I don't know honestly) it wouldn't have mattered. And either way by the time anything comes of the relationship you're already fugitives and the galaxy seems doomed, and then the game is over.

In ME2, Shepard's not really military anymore, and your crew consists of people who are there because they want to be, not because it's their job. So no real issue there, Shepard isn't really they're boss so much as a person they admire and willingly obey.

[Raiil]

AquamanOS wrote...

Maybe it's because I'm not military nor part of a clear ranked worked structure but I never saw the problem myself.

In ME1 only Kaiden or Ashley are the problem, but Shepard is at that point being phased out of the Alliance into the Spectres. He/she was only given the Normandy and alliance crew because of time constraints on the first mission. Presumably had Saren been put down and their been no Reaper threat, so the galaxy went back to business as usual Shepard would have lost the Normandy and been forced to work as an independant Spectre. Then unless dating a special goverment agent as a military officer carries a stigma (I don't know honestly) it wouldn't have mattered. And either way by the time anything comes of the relationship you're already fugitives and the galaxy seems doomed, and then the game is over.

In ME2, Shepard's not really military anymore, and your crew consists of people who are there because they want to be, not because it's their job. So no real issue there, Shepard isn't really they're boss so much as a person they admire and willingly obey.

There are several issues about dating in the military. 

Interpersonal relationships clog up/muddy the chain of command. In a 'good' interpersonal relationship, you are partners and theoretically equals. This is impossible to achieve within the confines of a officer/subordinate relationship. If you're military, you're on duty  24/7; you just have some 'off' time where you can be recalled at any moment. Having one partner who has to, by description, pull rank in order to get the job done creates an insane amount of friction. You are not equals in your job, and because you're dating from your workforce, you're not equals within your home life, either. 

Sometimes it comes down to direct conflict of interests, such as the VS example. Sometimes it's just plain human nature. To use a personal one, I mentioned before that I dated someone else in my military programme. I was an officer in my fourth year, he had just started that school year (we were in the same grade, I just chose to enter early). He had to salute me, address me as ma'am. and on several occasions, due to outside influences, I was his direct superior officer.  I couldn't allow a certain relaxation or casualness and that ended up with me barking at him. Trying to get him to understand that when we were in uniform, I had a specific set of rules that I had abide by and he did too just made it worse.


It became an issue simply because in the context of the programme, which bled into personal life (during school hours), I was higher ranked and given certain perogatives that he wasn't. Keep in mind that this was just a school programme, where we actually stepped out of that system when the bells rang. You don't get that option when you're actually in the army.

In the actual military, you can be forced into situations where your significant other might be killed. The subordinate will be kept in the dark about certain operations simply because they aren't high enough in the hierarchy to be given the information. You may end up having to yell and scream. You might try nepotism, or they might push for it. You may simply try to protect them above the unit because you love them, even if it has dire consequences for the rest of the unit. The military is not there to be a humanising element in your work life. You're a soldier, and you do what you're told. But that's difficult when both the personal and the public life begin to bleed together.

In Shepard's case, they're still considered Alliance, even if they're spectres as well. Getting with Kaidan still went against basic fraternisation rules, although in the case of Kaidan and fem!Shep, had Kaidan gotten himself put on a different ship and out of Shepard's jurisdiction, there would have been considerably less friction. Male!Shep and Ashley most likely wouldn't have that luxury until she made officer.

I agree about the ME2 crew being different; one of the things I enjoyed about romancing Thane was that he wasn't Shepard's subordinate, and never treated himself as such. He was, in effect, a contract worker for Shepard- her arm, in my case- that evolved into an actual romantic relationship. Thane agrees to work with Shepard, not for her. The same can be said for most of the other relationships, although I would argue that Garrus and Jacob's attitudes smack of the military (and were ultimately why I pursued Thane instead).

[ThatDancingTurian]

laecraft wrote...

Never mind VS, look at Shepard. He sleeps with no one but his squad. That means he always chooses his subordinates. That's what I find off-putting. Is he doing it because it's easy? I'd much rather date an equal. Someone who doesn't follow my orders daily. Someone like Mordin Solus, perhaps - even though he's in Shepard's team, he doesn't feel like subordinate. The rest of them, they all do.

I disagree with that last sentence. To me, Tali, Jacob and the VS are the only ones that to me really feel like there's an inequal distribution of power in the relationship. Tali because of the way she idolizes Shepard and the other three because of their Alliance backgrounds and how that affects the way they talk to Shepard. Thane, Jack and Garrus feel more like independent contractors than subordinates to me. Miranda goes out of her way to let Shepard know she ultimately answers to TIM alone.

I have seen this complaint the most with the VS. I'm wondering if this is the very reason for the Ash and Kaidan becoming Spectres. Maybe they wanted to address the issue so they decided to put them more on equal footing with Shepard.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Never mind VS, look at Shepard. He sleeps with no one but his squad. That means he always chooses his subordinates. That's what I find off-putting. Is he doing it because it's easy? I'd much rather date an equal. Someone who doesn't follow my orders daily. Someone like Mordin Solus, perhaps - even though he's in Shepard's team, he doesn't feel like subordinate. The rest of them, they all do.

I disagree with that last sentence. To me, Tali, Jacob and the VS are the only ones that to me really feel like there's an inequal distribution of power in the relationship. Tali because of the way she idolizes Shepard and the other three because of their Alliance backgrounds and how that affects the way they talk to Shepard. Thane, Jack and Garrus feel more like independent contractors than subordinates to me. Miranda goes out of her way to let Shepard know she ultimately answers to TIM alone.

I have seen this complaint the most with the VS. I'm wondering if this is the very reason for the Ash and Kaidan becoming Spectres. Maybe they wanted to address the issue so they decided to put them more on equal footing with Shepard.

Jacob doesn't really come off as a subordinate, not even in the romance.

[Raiil]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Never mind VS, look at Shepard. He sleeps with no one but his squad. That means he always chooses his subordinates. That's what I find off-putting. Is he doing it because it's easy? I'd much rather date an equal. Someone who doesn't follow my orders daily. Someone like Mordin Solus, perhaps - even though he's in Shepard's team, he doesn't feel like subordinate. The rest of them, they all do.

I disagree with that last sentence. To me, Tali, Jacob and the VS are the only ones that to me really feel like there's an inequal distribution of power in the relationship. Tali because of the way she idolizes Shepard and the other three because of their Alliance backgrounds and how that affects the way they talk to Shepard. Thane, Jack and Garrus feel more like independent contractors than subordinates to me. Miranda goes out of her way to let Shepard know she ultimately answers to TIM alone.

I have seen this complaint the most with the VS. I'm wondering if this is the very reason for the Ash and Kaidan becoming Spectres. Maybe they wanted to address the issue so they decided to put them more on equal footing with Shepard.

Jacob doesn't really come off as a subordinate, not even in the romance.

He does in his mannerisms, and while he doesn't grovel and is willing to stick up for himself, he adopts a subordinate-to-officer tone a lot (although this changes when you get to know him better).


As for the other, I would add Garrus to the Tali and VS grouping. It's not as overt, but Garrus has a bit of hero-worshipping going on with Shepard. It's not as twee as Tali's, but it's definitely there.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Jacob doesn't really come off as a subordinate, not even in the romance.

Granted, I've only watched videos on youtube so I don't have the whole story. But the way he waits for Shepard to set the tone for their later conversations, the jokes about sneaking into the captain's quarters, it all seems to set her as the 'one in charge'. I never got that feeling from Thane or Garrus' romances. He doesn't do it as much as Kaidan did, though.

@Valentia X: I'm probably biased, but I never felt Garrus worshiped Shepard the same way Tali does, at least not in ME2 when he's not a wide-eyed C-Sec officer anymore. I never felt like he was propping Shepard up on some pedestal, Shepard simply earned his respect and his trust. To me he always came off as a friend who puts his faith in Shepard's judgment rather than an officer doing what he's told or some kind of fanboy who finds Shepard infallible.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 10 juillet 2011 - 06:23 .

[Grunk]

Would I? Possibly, under the proper conditions and with more circumspection.

Should I? Hell naw.

It's just dicey stuff, like being a college professor (this is my example since I'm a teacher) at age, say, 38, and having a non-traditional student who's my age and attracted to me in my class. Maybe I reciprocate that attraction, but until that conflict-of-interest is gone, nope. The soonest I'd go is after final grades are submitted and posted and I know this person won't be in any of my classes again. But even that seems too soon and dicey to me; I'd prefer waiting for that person to graduate and just being a friend until then.

Similarly, were I actually Shepard, I'd avoid dating any character under my command, even the ones in ME2 that aren't technically under my command and can leave whenever they want. In the first case, it's just dangerous to the work environment I think to date anyone and after stealing the ship, it could just be feelings generated by "HOLY CRAP THE GALAXY IS GONNA DIE." In ME2 that's even more the case.

But luckily, this isn't IRL and my superhero space commando badass Shepard is gonna get either get him some well-toned newly-made Spectre lovin' or some genetically perfect booty. And in one save in ME3, hopefully he'll hatef--- Kaidan.

[Raiil]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Jacob doesn't really come off as a subordinate, not even in the romance.

Granted, I've only watched videos on youtube so I don't have the whole story. But the way he waits for Shepard to set the tone for their later conversations, the jokes about sneaking into the captain's quarters, it all seems to set her as the 'one in charge'. I never got that feeling from Thane or Garrus' romances. He doesn't do it as much as Kaidan did, though.

@Valentia X: I'm probably biased, but I never felt Garrus worshipped Shepard the same way Tali does, at least not in ME2 when he's not a wide-eyed C-Sec officer anymore. I never felt like he was propping Shepard up on some pedastal, Shepard simply earned his respect and his trust. To me he always came off as a friend who puts his faith in Shepard's judgement rather than an officer doing what he's told or some kind of fanboy who finds Shepard infallible.

I see where you're coming from, and like I said, it's not as twee as Tali's. But it's even noted that while Garrus has strong leadership potential/skills, they will forever be unused so long as Garrus remains under Shepard's command. Garrus's opinion generally seems to come off as 'whatever Shepard thinks', with short but sharp exceptions. I'm not posing this as a bad thing; Garrus is totally my Fem!Shep's bro who has her undivided trust and respect, but I feel that Garrus has put himself as a subordinate. Definitely not to the degree that Tali does, but still.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Valentia X wrote...

I see where you're coming from, and like I said, it's not as twee as Tali's. But it's even noted that while Garrus has strong leadership potential/skills, they will forever be unused so long as Garrus remains under Shepard's command. Garrus's opinion generally seems to come off as 'whatever Shepard thinks', with short but sharp exceptions. I'm not posing this as a bad thing; Garrus is totally my Fem!Shep's bro who has her undivided trust and respect, but I feel that Garrus has put himself as a subordinate. Definitely not to the degree that Tali does, but still.

I think that note about him never reaching his potential isn't so much about his relationship with Shepard as it is an issue of him not being able to trust his own instincts after what happened with Sidonis. In that regard, I'd say it's more that he's not pushing himself as much as he should with Shepard there to do the job instead, which to me is a different issue all-together from the OT.

I don't think he automatically defers to Shepard's opinion either; one of his character traits is a problem with authority and blindly following orders, after all. I think Shepard is simply one of the few people he trusts to get the job done and I think he genuinely agrees with most of Shepard's decisions.

[Melra]

I wouldn't have too big problems with it, if someone else did I wouldn't care. As long as both are able to keep work and free time seperate, it should work out just fine. No favorites.

[ThatDancingTurian]

@Melrache: Completely off-topic, but I love your avatar. Yvonne Strahovski is so cute in that gif.

[Nightdragon8]

Skirata129 wrote...

I was completely honest about it. I was romancing ash so I saved her. there were ancillary reasons though, such as the fact that kaidan had yet to contribute anything to the mission and I had never used him in my squad after other characters became availible. ash was generally more useful in the field.

My very first playthough was that I wanted to rescue as many people as I could, so I went with ash and Kirhe's team, considering that playthough I ended up romancing Liara (wasn't really trying) but I went along with it anyway

[Seboist]

DWH1982 wrote...

The military tends to discourage these types of relationships for other reasons.

Virmire is a good example. Do you really think that a Shepard who was interested in Ash or Kaidan was capable of making an unbiased decision? I'll be frank... I wanted to romance Ash, and I rescued Ash. I have my arguments for that decision, but I'm not 100% sure I didn't just construct them around saving the character I wanted to save for romance reasons. That's okay for a video game, not so great for a "real life" scenario.

In real life, I would consider dating my superior IF I felt we clicked, IF I thought she would be open to it, and IF there were no policy against it where I worked. Life's too short to care about what other people think.

I always found it interesting how Bioware unintentionally showed why mixed gender combat units are a bad idea in real life with the Virmire situation.

[Wynne]

dantares83 wrote...

 Seriously, 

in real life, would you ever considered dating your superiors? For me, it's a no no no. I don't wish people to say I am sleeping with him/her just so I can climb up the ladder... I rather leave the company and join another before getting into a relationship...

So Ashley sleeping with maleShep is like the female secretary sleeping with her boss so she can have additional benefits... and Kaiden sleeping with femShep is the typical behaviour of a male s**t....

no wonder they promoted him in ME3... but then again, ur femShep would be see as a s**t....

guess I can only date aliens in ME3...

In real life? Yes, under certain circumstances--the work could not interfere with my personal life. Meaning, one person might be higher in rank, but they would not be the one analyzing their lover's performance. My direct superior? Sure, I still would, but something would have to change. I wouldn't carry on a secret affair, nor would I stay in a situation where I couldn't separate work from home.

But Shepard has exactly ONE tryst with Ash/Kaidan that we know about. ONE. And that was a "we're quite possibly about to die, seeing as our friend just died, so let's remember what it feels like to be alive" scenario.

In the third game, things have changed. Ash and Kaidan are NOT working for you anymore, they'll be working with you. You both will answer to the same entity, period. There is no further issue in ME3 because you are now on even ground; actually, that makes it better because if you get together, you'll be together as equals, because you want to be and not because there's some romance about the situation.

dantares83 wrote...

it's a bit sexist but I do think that males who sleep with their superiors are worse than their female counterparts...

i
mean if u make ur femShep UGLY and Kaiden is still interested... it is
saying something... either he is just sleeping with you so you can
recommend him for promotion next time or he just into woman with
leadership qualities coz he likes to be 'punished'... either way, he is
seemed as a 'p**sy'...

It's not sexist so much as senseless. There are many possible reasons why a person would sleep with their boss--sometimes it's manipulation or a seedy trade of favors, but sometimes it's just an unhappy accident of fate. You get the job of your dreams, then you meet the person of your dreams, and the two conflict--it's not an easy choice for either person. Does one of you give up their job for the other, or do you give up each other? If both are truly ideal (the relationship and the job) then it's going to be damned hard to make the choice, isn't it?

A guy who likes a woman with leadership qualities--actually, he has to be more of a man than most to not feel inadequate next to her, or pout and sulk and whine about how he wants to lead because otherwise he doesn't have anything to offer (plenty of guys seem to think that way). If you look at it that way, someone like Kaidan is better off than most because his confidence wasn't threatened by Shepard being his boss. She earned his respect, he earned hers, and he doesn't need to be on top to feel like he's a man, he knows he is one no matter what.

Heh, I actually like him more than I originally did for having realized that just now.

Modifié par Wynne, 10 juillet 2011 - 12:50 .