155 réponses à ce sujet

[Skirata129]

did anyone else find shepard's inablity to counter thane's argument annoying? when thane started going on about his body doing the assassinations rather than his mind, I would have liked nothing better than the ability to point out that yes, his body did what it was trained to do, but he chose to allow it to be used it that way. when he accepted the job, he accepted the moral responsibility for the killing. his argument that a gun is not responsible for who pulls the trigger was BS, as a gun is unable to avoid situations where it's trigger might be pulled or refuse to be used by someone who would use it to perform violent acts.

How do you guys feel about this?

[AngelicMachinery]

Shepard has never proven to be particularly bright, tenacious as hell... but, I don't think they're firing on all cylinders.

[King Zeel]

Skirata129 wrote...

did anyone else find shepard's inablity to counter thane's argument annoying? when thane started going on about his body doing the assassinations rather than his mind, I would have liked nothing better than the ability to point out that yes, his body did what it was trained to do, but he chose to allow it to be used it that way. when he accepted the job, he accepted the moral responsibility for the killing. his argument that a gun is not responsible for who pulls the trigger was BS, as a gun is unable to avoid situations where it's trigger might be pulled or refuse to be used by someone who would use it to perform violent acts.

How do you guys feel about this?

God. You just reminded me of why I HATED Thane's character. It reminded me of that one time i was late for course registrations and the only remaining class was some philosphy-enviroment-jabbo-ho-hippy-talk-crap. It was so annoying. You'd have these conversations with these artists dip****s about how the "energy" is an invisible, unproveable thing that you can't see.

[CheeseEnchilada]

Shepard's been shot in the head numerous times. Give him/her a break.

Also, I see nothing wrong with Thane's argument. You're talking to an alien who specifically says that drell minds are different than human minds. It's morality that we can't comprehend, much like the geth, and I figured Shepard just dropped the argument out of respect.

[Skirata129]

thane's whole argument was fundamentally flawed though. I agreed that the body's reflexes can be honed to a killing machine, and that for situations such as reacting to a perceived threat you may not have any concious thought between the stimulus and the reaction, but the flaw was where both shepard and thane completely ignored the fact that Thane AGREED to assassinate someone and did so. I don't hold that against him, but him trying to dodge the responsibility for that action and shepard allowing him to do so pissed me off.

[Sylvianus]

He sucked also against Vazir before she dies.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 juillet 2011 - 11:50 .

[Skirata129]

so? mens sana en corpore sano. the best warriors hone both body and mind. shep wouldn't be an officer if he was stupid.

[Pups_of_war_76]

Mash Mashington wrote...

Shepard is not very smart

[PMC65]

Thane is a drell ... My Shepard doesn't try and make them think/act "human".

[Saaziel]

I like the fact that Mass effect tend to bring up Moral / Philosophical / Political problems. I don't believe they ought to be tackled by Sheppard though; People need to figure things out for themselves for one. Secondly , you know they go ape over the most trivial matters , having Sheppard take a definitive stand on more profound subjects would simply be asking for trouble (For the company that is).

Specifically on your counter argument: Well it hinges on proving that we have a choice to begin with. Its not hard to construct a case that we're nothing more than machines ourselves; Not that dissimilar from the mechanism of a gun . Then you're going down the "Deterministic" problem that's been unresolved since ... well over 2000 years now ... so good luck figuring it out.

Modifié par Saaziel, 05 juillet 2011 - 11:59 .

[LTiberious]

Well... Im fine with him not going into philosophical debates...
Im happy he doesnt. I want a soldier who gets the job done.

Nothing more or nothing less.

For philosophy i have a whole internet full of 12 year olds. of all ages

[Skirata129]

all decisions must be based on the assumption that we have a choice.

[Saaziel]

Of course that assumption can be false.

[VegasVance]

 And debate that Shepard engages in without the [Choose Polite Yelling] or [Choose Harsh Yelling] option he looses, evertime, period.

Modifié par VegasVance, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:00 .

[CheeseEnchilada]

Skirata129 wrote...

thane's whole argument was fundamentally flawed though. I agreed that the body's reflexes can be honed to a killing machine, and that for situations such as reacting to a perceived threat you may not have any concious thought between the stimulus and the reaction, but the flaw was where both shepard and thane completely ignored the fact that Thane AGREED to assassinate someone and did so. I don't hold that against him, but him trying to dodge the responsibility for that action and shepard allowing him to do so pissed me off.

Fundamentally flawed in your mind. You're trying to pin your own morality system onto an alien creature who has a completely different culture and mind.

"No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthromorphism." -Legion

It's part of the reason Legion's loyalty mission was considered so gray. Brainwashing is considered cruel and inhumane, but we're not dealing with humans. We're dealing with a species who consider it to be the same as a mathmatical formula. Yet we can't help thrusting our own morality and viewpoint onto it, since it's how we think. We can't help it, and (presumably) neither can any other species.

Believe me, Thane's logic annoyed me at the beginning too. I would've liked to see Shepard make an argument against it, but when it comes down to it, you're dealing with two different cultures and two different morality systems. A debate would be welcome, but no judging and converting.

[Skirata129]

that's irrelevant to the purposes of this discussion or any other. if we don't have a choice, it doesn't matter anyway, so we must always act under the assumption that we do.

[King Zeel]

Exhibit A:

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

thane's whole argument was fundamentally flawed though. I agreed that the body's reflexes can be honed to a killing machine, and that for situations such as reacting to a perceived threat you may not have any concious thought between the stimulus and the reaction, but the flaw was where both shepard and thane completely ignored the fact that Thane AGREED to assassinate someone and did so. I don't hold that against him, but him trying to dodge the responsibility for that action and shepard allowing him to do so pissed me off.

Fundamentally flawed in your mind. You're trying to pin your own morality system onto an alien creature who has a completely different culture and mind.

"No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthromorphism." -Legion

It's part of the reason Legion's loyalty mission was considered so gray. Brainwashing is considered cruel and inhumane, but we're not dealing with humans. We're dealing with a species who consider it to be the same as a mathmatical formula. Yet we can't help thrusting our own morality and viewpoint onto it, since it's how we think. We can't help it, and (presumably) neither can any other species.

Believe me, Thane's logic annoyed me at the beginning too. I would've liked to see Shepard make an argument against it, but when it comes down to it, you're dealing with two different cultures and two different morality systems. A debate would be welcome, but no judging and converting.

SORRY FRIEND. there is only one type of "logic" and Thane certainly doesn't subscribe to it.

I'm not  gonna read the rest. I'm sure its the art student jargon that I'm so used to.

Modifié par King Zeel, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:02 .

[Saaziel]

Maybe nothing intrinsically matters to begin with.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Thane's dying, Shep didn't want to be mean and tell him he is in fact a murderer NOT a gun, but she did think it.

[Terminatort800]

I think that Shepard sucks when he/she dance. BW should improve it asap.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Shepard has never proven to be
particularly bright, tenacious as hell... but, I don't think they're
firing on all cylinders.

Mash Mashington wrote...

Shepard is not very smart

VegasVance wrote...

 And debate that Shepard engages in without the [Choose Polite Yelling] or [Choose Harsh Yelling] option he looses, evertime, period.

Truth.

[Skirata129]

still, it's a bit annoying when you're playing an rpg and intelligent conversation options don't even appear.