155 réponses à ce sujet

[Mims]

Much what people have said. Thane obviously wasn't taking on contract jobs while under Shepard's service, so having him "repent" wouldn't really have changed anything. If [paragon] Shepard had thought he was a danger to anyone, the conversation might have gone differently. But there's no sense arguing differing beliefs when the end is still the same. When you have a crew full of terrorists, murderers, vigilantes and thieves, a guy who just has a different opinion then you pales in comparison.

I'm sure they can have a nice long argument about it over tea sometime.

[CheeseEnchilada]

I've always been under the impression that Shepard isn't all that bright. Seriously, s/he could have grown up on the streets of Earth, had their schooling tragically interrupted by the entire colony being enslaved, or...uh, I don't know about Spacers. Shep is inventive and clever, but I wouldn't say s/he's intelligent.

Though with big issues like the genophage and quarian/geth war, we may get a chance to have Shepard throw in some intellectual points and have a smart conversation. Or just spam blue and red conversation options. Hopefully the former.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I don't think he even believes his own stupid excuse because he calls himself wicked and prays which indicates feeling guilty to me (unless its just about his wife etc but then why pray after killing?).

[Saaziel]

Skirata129 wrote...

still, it's a bit annoying when you're playing an rpg and intelligent conversation options don't even appear.

Its a computer game first and foremost.

You have to work within some constraint from general storytelling to marketing the game. Reading these forums often reminds me that people want the impossible. Not that its bad that you're asking these type of questions.

I'd suggest Pen & Paper RPG; Mage the ascension from White wolf. The 2nd edition, its sometime vague and contradicting in nature , but the quirkiness really gives it a charm. Now that game is wide open to these types of questions.

Edit: Hell you could go with a Technocratic setting , primarily based on the Void engineers and recreate the Mass effect universe no trouble.

Modifié par Saaziel, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:24 .

[Skirata129]

Mass effect is very good as it is, but we should always push for something to become better. stagnancy leads to decay. Honestly the best RPG for making informed and intelligent choices in my opinion was geneforge. not the best gameplay though. lol

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Saaziel wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

still, it's a bit annoying when you're playing an rpg and intelligent conversation options don't even appear.

Its a computer game first and foremost.

You have to work within some constraint from general storytelling to marketing the game. Reading these forums often reminds me that people want the impossible.

Is an RPG player not entitled to intelligent dialogue? No, says the man from Square Enix. I was too busy designing improbable outfits. No, says the man from Bioware. Dialogue should focus on quantity instead of quality. No, says the man from Bethesada. What's "dialogue" again? I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose....Planescape: Torment. A game where the artist would not fear EA. Where the writer would not be bound by the marketing department. Where the great would not be constrained by the small. And if you head over to GOG, Planescape: Torment can become your game as well.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:32 .

[PiercedMonk]

The assumption that Thane is the product of a different culture and thus not bound by the same morality as Shepard is both flawed, and a blatent rationalization.

Considering how little we know about drell culture, it's impossible to know if other drell would agree with Thane, or if they'd view him as a sociopath. Feron doesn't seem to hold the same belief system. Though, granted, most of his characterization comes from the comics, wherein all the various species seem to be just funny looking humans. However, claiming that all drell hold the same world view is somewhat presumptuous.

Further, even if every single living drell does subscribe to that outlook, that doesn't mean that it is a morally acceptable philosphy. Consider a rather mild real-world example: There was a news story out of Suadi Arabia recently when a woman there posted YouTube video of herself driving a car, and encouraging other women to drive in deffiance of the law. Women are not legally allowed to drive cars in Suadi Arabia. That is part of their culture. Women also aren't allowed to go out in public unless accopanied by a male relative. Currently, women are not allowed to vote in public elections. Would anyone hesitate to say these particular aspect of Saudi culture are backwards and mysoginistic, or are we being culturally insensitive by doing so?

Morality is not circumstantial. Regardless of whether Thane is in the minority or if every single drell believes as he does, he is wrong. Thane might not want to take responsibility for his actions, but that doesn't absolve him or responsibility. He had the option to refuse to serve the hanar as an assassin, and when the hanar released him so he could have a family, he choose to work freelance as a contract killer. He didn't choose who it was that he was killing, but that's the only choice that wasn't his.

However, all that aside, Shepard wouldn't really gain anything by arguing the point with Thane, beyond the satisfaction of being right.

[Raiil]

Skirata129 wrote...

did anyone else find shepard's inablity to counter thane's argument annoying? when thane started going on about his body doing the assassinations rather than his mind, I would have liked nothing better than the ability to point out that yes, his body did what it was trained to do, but he chose to allow it to be used it that way. when he accepted the job, he accepted the moral responsibility for the killing. his argument that a gun is not responsible for who pulls the trigger was BS, as a gun is unable to avoid situations where it's trigger might be pulled or refuse to be used by someone who would use it to perform violent acts.

How do you guys feel about this?

Thane wasn't really able to change Shepard's mind, either. No one won that argument. Thane flatly states that there is a philosophical difference on how the two races view the concept of a soul; unless they were prepared to give a good half hour to the discussion, it's meant to be more of a passing statement. Who is 'right' is entirely dependant on your POV. 

[Aquilas]

Shepard is smart. The writers don't give him many opportunities to display his intelligence, but he does shine on occasion.

On Virmire, Sovereign regales Shepard with tales of the Reapers' greatness: they are many, they are infinite, they are immortal, they and their motives are beyond our meager comprehension.

Shepard's response? "You're not even alive. Not really. You're just a machine, and machines can be broken." Sovereign's response? Terminates the conversation, and blasts off in a huff.

It could be that Shepard is incapable of viewing the Reapers as anything other than machines he can break. But considering that conversation's context, I believe Shepard knows exactly what he's saying and he gets exactly the response he was looking for.

On Tuchanka, Shepard uses the Socratic method to challenge Mordin's belief that the genophage was just and secured the greater good. Clearly, Mordin is unsettled as he examines his actions, and later, on the Normandy, he thanks Shepard for the opportunity to do something "clean," less messy than the genophage, something clear-cut. Shepard helps Mordin gain insight through self-reflection.

Remember, much of what Shepard says--or more frequently, asks--is exposition for the player's benefit. For instance, all that stuff Avina tells Shepard on the Citadel is exposition--especially for the players who don't read the Codex. A commissioned officer in the Marines who was 12 years old when humans established their embassy on the Citadel would've learned that stuff in middle- and high school.

I agree that Shepard doesn't press Thane vigorously enough on the mind-body detachment concept. But from an expository standpoint, Thane is a mouthpiece for the writers: he presents the Drell as alien thinkers with their own religion and philosophy. From a character development standpoint, those conversations establish Thane as a warrior-monk (though different from a Justicar) versus a mere hit man.

Shepard is a man of action, but that doesn't mean he's the classic Marine jarhead. It'll be interesting to see how he examines the larger implications of decisions and their consequences in ME3--if the writers give him the opportunity.

Modifié par Aquilas, 06 juillet 2011 - 02:37 .

[TexasToast712]

 Guns dont kill people. People kill people.

[Mr. Sniper Rifle]

   This question is a variation of the argument you could say surrounds Sten from DA:O.

 See, I like Sten; I think he's a good character who has legitimite issues with the PC's actions when they clash with his personal philiosphy, and interesting reactions to a culture and people he meets. He's a well rounded character who, at least to me, comes off as genuinely likable. But there is one intrinsic comnflic that is at the back of every player's mind.

 He, in a moment of panic, slaughtered an entire family and as he later points out, feels little remorse for the action in and of itself. He accepts his punishment, but only as a logical next step, and not out of any feeling of guilt for his action. The closest he comes to admitting any guilt is that he knew the reason for his panic wasn't the fault of the family who rescued him.

 In essence, this one fact will change any interaction the player has with Sten; its a character ambiguity that informs the player of the philosphy and personality of the NPC, but also allows the player to come to their own conclusions as to how to treat the character.

 So back to Thane.

 Thane admits that he is an assassin. He doesn't dance around the subject; but he also let it wholely define him. He's deeply spiritual, capable of love, hate,guilt and the whole gamut of emotions, and  seperates the Thane, the master assassin, the calculated killer and Thane, the man seeking to fix his personal sins by doing the right thing, as he has been trained to do, as he puts it, " To leave the galaxy a brighter place before I die.". 

 And who's Shepard to tell him he's a murderer, a monster? in many ways, they do the same task: both are extremely competent killers, well trained and honed by years of conflict and violence. The only valid disagreement Shepard can have is that Thane is more detached from the killing then Shepard is, and even then, Shepard is an imperfect being, capable of making mistakes and killing someone because it makes the job easier (like pushing a man out of a window several hundred feet up).

My two cents.

[Skirata129]

Oh I didn't hold it against thane for being an assassin. My favorite characters in the game were those who tend to work outside the law such as Zaeed, Garrus, Miranda and TIM. What I did hold against him was the unwillingness to take personal responsibility for those actions. One of my bigest pet peeves with people is the inability to face the truth and it always strikes me as stemming from weakness.

[The C Trayne]

are people really trying to compare the logic of humans to the logic of a (fake) alien species???

first off it is a game where the rules of logic can be whatever the game designers want them to be so even human logic can be flawed if looked at from different angles.

second thanes argument does make sense from his point of view. He was in a "battle sleep" where his body performed actions he was trained and told to do which his mind didnt play a part in. There fore his gun comment does infact tie in rather well to his argument

finally everyone in the world is different and sees things in their own way that doesnt make them wrong merely seeing the world from a different perspective. looking through someone elses eyes can be enlightening for those who take the time to try it

[Mr. Sniper Rifle]

Skirata129 wrote...

Oh I didn't hold it against thane for being an assassin. My favorite characters in the game were those who tend to work outside the law such as Zaeed, Garrus, Miranda and TIM. What I did hold against him was the unwillingness to take personal responsibility for those actions. One of my bigest pet peeves with people is the inability to face the truth and it always strikes me as stemming from weakness.

 It's more helpful to view Thane's philosphy through the lense of cultural relativism. In his position, as he was trained and taught, what he does is a service for the greater good of both his people and the Hanar, for whom his entire species owes their very existence. And in his role in his assasin, he is required to do unpleasant things, which he has been trained to detach himself from.

 So to us, viewing his philosphy it  fits our definition of wrong in the general sense. After all, taking a life is a serious matter (as it should be, obviously). So we want to argue the point, that the philosiphical detachement he was inculcated with is not the proper way of dealing with taking another life, whether in the right or not. After all, detachement from killing has lead to horrible things.

  But it's like a Catholic priest arguing with a  Buddhist monk over how to reach their own spiritual enlightement. Both have similarities that cancel out parts of both their arguments (i.e. if my x is wrong, then your y is wrong as well), and each is suffciently different to make valid points for their own arguments. While Thane is wrong in your view point the character is weakened by what you see as a a flaw, others could easily say that he merely does what Shepard does, but places a different emotional attachement to his actions.

[Labrev]

Shepard is pretty depry, no question about it. But in this case, I think it was more a matter of respecting a different ideology, even if not completely agreeing with it. I mean, I think Thane's whole mind/body thing is retarded and all, but at the same time I try to accept that different species naturally will have their own different outlooks so whatever.

In many ways, I would have liked to see more of this from other species. Just about all aliens are pretty human overall. But I'm going off on a tangent now.

[Nerdage]

Sylvianus wrote...

He sucked also against Vazir before she dies.

That was nothing a renegade interrupt to the head wouldn't have solved, if you ask me.

There are never going to be the correct options for everybody when it comes to philisophy, that's just how it is, the easiest way to play it is just to accept thet he's telling you his philosophy, it's not necissarily an argument to be won, just his opinion.

Modifié par nerdage, 06 juillet 2011 - 03:54 .

[Eshaye]

Don't think it's Shepard's position to debate anything, but only to make the player think. Shep often brings up questions he/she has no answer for or seem dense to even ask, but it's not necessarily because Shep doesn't have an answer but because the purpose in raising the question is to make the characters and the player think about it.

The best teachers use this strategy, ask questions and things they know perfectly well and we the students at first think they are daft for even asking... Well that's my interpretation anyway, maybe I'm giving Shepard too much credit

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Guns dont kill people. People kill people.

That's what I though Shepard was driving at without coming out and directly saying it and insulting Thane. /shrug

Modifié par Eshaye, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:02 .

[Rulid]

It would be insulting if Shepard could indeed encompass all possible player responses and philosophies.

Despite the illusion of choices presented, a game is a game. Shepard's responses are limited to what the writers consider characterizations that are both varied and coherent at the same time.
A scene where Thane discusses body-mind dichotomy is probably just a very silly Zen thing the writers have going on. (Makes no sense even by Zen standards, and that's saying alot)

I'd be surprised if the writers were actually smart and brave enough to actually present a poignant moral dilemma that is actually worth philosophical debate.

Modifié par Rulid, 06 juillet 2011 - 04:27 .

[Quething]

Mr. Sniper Rifle wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Oh I didn't hold it against thane for being an assassin. My favorite characters in the game were those who tend to work outside the law such as Zaeed, Garrus, Miranda and TIM. What I did hold against him was the unwillingness to take personal responsibility for those actions. One of my bigest pet peeves with people is the inability to face the truth and it always strikes me as stemming from weakness.

 It's more helpful to view Thane's philosphy through the lense of cultural relativism. In his position, as he was trained and taught, what he does is a service for the greater good of both his people and the Hanar, for whom his entire species owes their very existence. And in his role in his assasin, he is required to do unpleasant things, which he has been trained to detach himself from.

 So to us, viewing his philosphy it  fits our definition of wrong in the general sense. After all, taking a life is a serious matter (as it should be, obviously). So we want to argue the point, that the philosiphical detachement he was inculcated with is not the proper way of dealing with taking another life, whether in the right or not. After all, detachement from killing has lead to horrible things.

  But it's like a Catholic priest arguing with a  Buddhist monk over how to reach their own spiritual enlightement. Both have similarities that cancel out parts of both their arguments (i.e. if my x is wrong, then your y is wrong as well), and each is suffciently different to make valid points for their own arguments. While Thane is wrong in your view point the character is weakened by what you see as a a flaw, others could easily say that he merely does what Shepard does, but places a different emotional attachement to his actions.

Well, the problem is, like Sarcastic Tasha said, he doesn't actually believe his own bullspit there, so it's hard for me to credit that this is actually a culture clash at work. If his values didn't agree with mine on his culpability in his "battle-sleep" actions, he wouldn't be joining a lunatic sucide mission in a desperate attempt at atonement.

[CheeseEnchilada]

Quething wrote...

Well, the problem is, like Sarcastic Tasha said, he doesn't actually believe his own bullspit there, so it's hard for me to credit that this is actually a culture clash at work. If his values didn't agree with mine on his culpability in his "battle-sleep" actions, he wouldn't be joining a lunatic sucide mission in a desperate attempt at atonement.

If I remember correctly, he isn't atoning for the fact that he's an assassin. He's atoning because he chose to brutally murder his wife's killers and extract revenge, becoming just as wicked as those who chose to use his skills. Not to mention the fact that he says he 'took his time' versus his usual quick methods. 

I could be wrong; it's been a while since I've played that scene. Or we could all be wrong, and Thane's just a really good assassin who has been lying about absolutely everything and is planning to stab Shepard in the back, making any sort of 'morality' questions moot. As an added bonus, it would make Shepard look pretty dumb for keeping him in Life Support. Everyone in the thread wins! 

[100k]

Shepard scolds Miranda for for crossing the line with Cerberus. 

Miranda counters by saying that Shepard crossed the lines as a Spectre to stop Saren. 

*it's super effective*

Shepard scolds Gavin Archer for crossing the line with Cerberus. 

Archer counters by saying that Shepard crossed the lines as a Spectre to stop Saren.

*it's super effective*

Ash attacks Shepard for working for Cerberus. 

*It's super effective*

*Shepard is confused*

*Shepard tries to use the "I'm-not-a-traitor" line. 

Shepard instead admits that he is a traitor. 

*Ash flees*

Shepard attacks Vasir for working with terrorists. 

*it does 15 damage*

Vasir attacks Shepard for working with terrorists. 

*its super effective*

*Shepard is confused!*

Shepard attacks Vasir with same argument again.

Shepard's attack misses! 

Vasir falls asleep*

:alien:

Modifié par 100k, 11 juillet 2011 - 11:23 .

[Skirata129]

I didn't realize that was a pokemon reference until the very last line.

[Ruse]

That was the only conversation option in the entire game I felt I was missing. 
There doesn't need to be a full blown debate between Thane and Shepard, maybe just a, "While I don't agree with that view, it's an interesting way to look at things."
 

[George-Kinsill]

Skirata129 wrote...

Oh I didn't hold it against thane for being an assassin. My favorite characters in the game were those who tend to work outside the law such as Zaeed, Garrus, Miranda and TIM. What I did hold against him was the unwillingness to take personal responsibility for those actions.

As a libertarian, I sympathize with you, but if you wanted to have this deep philosophical discussion, Thane could counter with a determinist argument, in that his fate was predetermined as since he was asked to become an assassin by the Hanar that saved his species, making it unbelievably disrespectful to refuse, it was not his choice really. Also, he was six years old, so his parents probably nudged him in the direction of obeying the hanar, so that takes away responsibility from him. And even if he was as a child "yeah, I want to kill people for a living!" he was only a child, and can't be held to the same standards as an adult. It is for this reason that many juries take it easy on a criminal convicted of murder that had a horrible childhood where there were choices made for him that set him down a bad path (abused as a child, taught to be a con artist and not allowed to go to school, etc.). Add in the drell belief in extreme dualism and cultural relativity arguments, and Thane still has a decent defense. If you look at the Leopold and Leob case, Clarence Darrow (the lawyer in the scopes trial) got 2 men life in prison instead of the death penalty based off a well argued detreminism closing argument (and also layed the foundation for the argument to censor and ban video games).

I do sympathize with you, and my skin crawls with the implications of Thane's belief system, but his morality system brings up the questions of determinism vs. indeterminsim, moral responsibility, cultural relativism, and the meaning of knowledge if you are a global skeptic. These questions have yet to be answered by the greatest philosophers, and BW may have a lot of good writers, but they are not gods that can answer all of life's problems. If Shepard were to have a deep discussion, it would last for hours, nothing would get settled, and Thane would get so irritated that whenever you try to talk to him, he'll be like Jack when you reject her romantically and tell you to "f*ck off." Shepard did the smart thing in not trying to answer unanswerable questions, and spend his valuable time on attempting to save the galaxy, which we all can agree on is a smart thing to do.  

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Rulid wrote...

A scene where Thane discusses body-mind dichotomy is probably just a very silly Zen thing the writers have going on. (Makes no sense even by Zen standards, and that's saying alot)

I'd be surprised if the writers were actually smart and brave enough to actually present a poignant moral dilemma that is actually worth philosophical debate.

The thing is Zen actually makes sense if you think about it enough. Thane's philosophy... not so much.

But honestly, that's why Planescape: Torment rocks - the writers are smart/brave enough to do that. Or I even remember a bit in the original Deus Ex where you're arguing the merits of different forms of government with a bartender in China.