155 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

Paula Deen wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

He sucked also against Vazir before she dies.

That bothered me a lot more than the Thane thing. I strongly believe that Shepard dropped the matter out of respect, and because he wasn't sure if it was some truly alien concept.

But with Vasir, it's so easy to destroy her "look in the mirror argument". Shepard is working WITH Cerberus, temporarily. Vasir is working FOR the Shadow Broker, continually. She's killing innocent people on the Shadow Broker's orders, without any hesitation or questions--which even Renegade Shepard never does.

She also apparently missed the obvious memo that the Shadow Broker purposefully prevents any faction from gaining an edge. Sure, she may get the location of a slaver base now and then, but the Shadow Broker probably gave other slavers the patrol routes/schedules of the Alliance. Even Barla Von, who dealt with the Shadow Broker occassionally, knew this.

Yeah, absolutely ! That bothered me a lot more than the thane thing too. It is obvious that there was a lot of things to replicate about his relationship with Cerberus, so far without an academic discourse.

" I know who they are and what they do. " That's the answer of shepard to Vazir... Yeah.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 juillet 2011 - 11:01 .

[ThePwener]

"I know who they are and what they do.... it doesn't matter" (say it all) is a great response only he understands along with everyone who believes in the Reapers. Vasir doesn't, so only Shepard gets it. It appears that in the case of the Reapers, Shepard doesn't care who he allies with to stop them.

It's not a bad comeback, it's just confusing. I really liked it myself, made my Cerberus Agent's heart soar.

[Sylvianus]

ThePwener wrote...

"I know who they are and what they do.... it doesn't matter" (say it all) is a great response only he understands along with everyone who believes in the Reapers. Vasir doesn't, so only Shepard gets it. It appears that in the case of the Reapers, Shepard doesn't care who he allies with to stop them.

It's not a bad comeback, it's just confusing. I really liked it myself, made my Cerberus Agent's heart soar.

I thought that Shepard wanted to convince her, if it were his will, it was a failure. But if actually he said just something for himself, that's understandable.

Because this statement doesn't negate the argument of Vazie. When she says that he isn't different from her. Shepard allies with Cerberus  to destroy the Collectors, she allies with shadowbroker to protect the stability of the galaxy.

She says he has no right to judge her when somehow he does the same thing. She seeks a kind of understanding from him, the spectres do what is the best for the galaxy. not necessarily what is moral and good.

This is the lesson she wants to give.

The best way was to refute the means. Shepard to destroy the collector isn't ready to cross some red line, like killing innocent people who annoy Cerberus. What Vazir has done with Liara. It's a simple murder.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 juillet 2011 - 11:28 .

[Candidate 88766]

You're forgetting that Thane had been brought up his whole life as an assassin. He had no choice in it. Its like a child being born into a religion, they have no say in the matter. Later you can give them the choice to leave, but when its all you know what reason would they have to leave? Thane has been an assassin his whole life. He never made the choice to become one.

[Aquilas]

Eshaye wrote...

Don't think it's Shepard's position to debate anything, but only to make the player think. Shep often brings up questions he/she has no answer for or seem dense to even ask, but it's not necessarily because Shep doesn't have an answer but because the purpose in raising the question is to make the characters and the player think about it.

The best teachers use this strategy, ask questions and things they know perfectly well and we the students at first think they are daft for even asking... Well that's my interpretation anyway, maybe I'm giving Shepard too much credit

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Guns dont kill people. People kill people.

That's what I though Shepard was driving at without coming out and directly saying it and insulting Thane. /shrug

This echoes my my comments on Shepard's debate with Mordin, and not just on Tuchanka.  Early in their discussions, Shepard challenges Mordin's rationalization of the genophage.  This is a jarhead debating one of the most brilliant scientists in the galaxy.  Look at Mordin's reaction: he's flustered, defensive, didactic.

I also agree that the writers give Shepard the pithy one liners versus having him actively parpticipate in most deliberations.  But I interpret that as Shepard summarizing all the argumentation in one stroke.  Shepard would be a great character in a Hemingway novel--he doesn't say a whole lot, but when the wirters give him the opportunity, he gets his licks in.

If the writers aren't going to portray him as a forensic star--and they really shouldn't--they ought to give him more opportunity to show he's not being led around by the squaddies.  But they'll always be stuck with him as the guy who asks questions on the players' behalf.  Exposition is a ****.

Modifié par Aquilas, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:15 .

[KillTheLastRomantic]

Yes. His 'persuasion' options are generally...not great and in general he is written to be quite derpy, which I think is a symptom of trying to make his lines 'bad-ass'.

[ElitePinecone]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Yes. His 'persuasion' options are generally...not great and in general he is written to be quite derpy, which I think is a symptom of trying to make his lines 'bad-ass'.

One thing I also noticed was that Shepard was deliberately written to not know certain things so that the questions would come up in conversation and the player could hear someone's exposition for minutes and minutes (e.g. pretty much the entire first half of Mass Effect).

I can't think of many specifics, but it struck me as ridiculous that an Alliance commander who had presumably been to a military academy and learned about alien culture and galactic history would be asking questions as simple as "What are the Protheans?" or "What's a Spectre?"

To be fair on the character, I guess, some of the appearance of stupidity is necessary when things need to be explained to the player. But it's hardly realistic that someone without a grasp of logic or the ability to argue a point would be made the XO or CO of a starship. Let alone a character who has no idea about large sections of the galaxy and its history. 

[Ahriman]

Em23 wrote...

Mash Mashington wrote...

Shepard is not very smart

- We need a plan!
- We fight or we die, thats the plan.

-This way is blocked.
-We must find another way.
[Preparing for storm of Collector base if someone didn't recognise 'quote']
Yes, Shepard is surely not smart. But it has deep meaning - even stupid people can save the galaxy.

[dreamextractor]

Wizz wrote...

Em23 wrote...

Mash Mashington wrote...

Shepard is not very smart

- We need a plan!
- We fight or we die, thats the plan.

-This way is blocked.
-We must find another way.
[Preparing for storm of Collector base if someone didn't recognise 'quote']
Yes, Shepard is surely not smart. But it has deep meaning - even stupid people can save the galaxy.

Even Conrad Verner?

[CroGamer002]

Shepard is a derp.

Best evidence is he/she talking to Wrex about Krogan Rebellions and with VS on Horizon.
Dear Lord, that was awful.

Modifié par Mesina2, 06 juillet 2011 - 05:40 .

[Ahriman]

dreamextractor wrote...
Even Conrad Verner?

Unfortunately stupidity is not his only flaw. Cowardice, incompetence, progressing schizophrenia ... that's just too much.

[pablodurando]

Skirata129 wrote...

did anyone else find shepard's inablity to counter thane's argument annoying? when thane started going on about his body doing the assassinations rather than his mind, I would have liked nothing better than the ability to point out that yes, his body did what it was trained to do, but he chose to allow it to be used it that way. when he accepted the job, he accepted the moral responsibility for the killing. his argument that a gun is not responsible for who pulls the trigger was BS, as a gun is unable to avoid situations where it's trigger might be pulled or refuse to be used by someone who would use it to perform violent acts.

How do you guys feel about this?

Shepards incompetence is my biggest pet peeve with the Mass Effect series.  Their are so many greats arguments and debates that never percipitated because Shepard had to make a naive statement that makes him/her look awesome.  I mean tell me if  you didn't want to go in depth with Ashley regarding her religion.  Tell me why Shepard didn't debate Saren more regarding his indoctrination instead of just heading into a circular argument.  Tell me why Sheaprd could not make one intelligent comment when in the presence of the council.  Tell me why Sheaprd looked like an imbecile while talking to the Illusive Man.  Tell me why Sheaprd couldn't defend his point against the VS on Horizon.  Tell me why Shepard looked retarded during LOTSB while talking to Liara, Vasir, and the Shadow Broker, and his speeches at the end of ME2 were just pitiful.  I wish Shepard would just fail to stop the reapers and some intellectual will find a way to save the galaxy instead.  

And if I'm right Thanes argument ties in directly with the soul concept and differentiation between reflex and controlled decision.   If I were Shepard I would first go after his proof for his soul and it's greater implications, then I would challenge Thane on his morals, push the topic further by discussing relative and absolute moralism, and finally challenge him by bringing in free will and tying that in with his reflex theory.

[TridentWhisper]

Making epic speeches doesn't mean your great at rethorics.

[CC-Tron]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Yes. His 'persuasion' options are generally...not great and in general he is written to be quite derpy, which I think is a symptom of trying to make his lines 'bad-ass'.

One thing I also noticed was that Shepard was deliberately written to not know certain things so that the questions would come up in conversation and the player could hear someone's exposition for minutes and minutes (e.g. pretty much the entire first half of Mass Effect).

I can't think of many specifics, but it struck me as ridiculous that an Alliance commander who had presumably been to a military academy and learned about alien culture and galactic history would be asking questions as simple as "What are the Protheans?" or "What's a Spectre?"

To be fair on the character, I guess, some of the appearance of stupidity is necessary when things need to be explained to the player. But it's hardly realistic that someone without a grasp of logic or the ability to argue a point would be made the XO or CO of a starship. Let alone a character who has no idea about large sections of the galaxy and its history. 

If I remember correctly the player has a choice between asking naive questions or choosing a dialogue option which implies Shepard already knows the subject matter (at least a little).

On Freedom's Progress Shepard can ask "what are the collectors" or choose another option which implies he already has some knowledge of them.

[The Twilight God]

King Zeel wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

did anyone else find shepard's inablity to counter thane's argument annoying? when thane started going on about his body doing the assassinations rather than his mind, I would have liked nothing better than the ability to point out that yes, his body did what it was trained to do, but he chose to allow it to be used it that way. when he accepted the job, he accepted the moral responsibility for the killing. his argument that a gun is not responsible for who pulls the trigger was BS, as a gun is unable to avoid situations where it's trigger might be pulled or refuse to be used by someone who would use it to perform violent acts.

How do you guys feel about this?

God. You just reminded me of why I HATED Thane's character. It reminded me of that one time i was late for course registrations and the only remaining class was some philosphy-enviroment-jabbo-ho-hippy-talk-crap. It was so annoying. You'd have these conversations with these artists dip****s about how the "energy" is an invisible, unproveable thing that you can't see.

You can't see Chi, dude! It's in the 4th dimension, man!!! Unlearn what you have learned you intellectual ignoramous!!! You gotta tap into the All, man!!! You gotta connect to the superlative objective cognitize supra-consciousness mental energy imbuing ultra intelligence existing in the conceivable nothingness that al all things and no thing, dude, and see the Truth... dude.

[Nerevar-as]

Horizon was intended. They wanted plot going one way while characters wouldn´t behave like that. Sadly they chose plot.

The "as you know" conversation with Nihlus and Anderson wasn´t that bad. It was an infodump but it came close to feel the three of them exchanging thoughts about the situation rather than explaining things to Shepard. The Spectre one with Jenkins and the doctor however fared far worse (although Jenkins being right about everything was quite fun in retrospective).

And Shepard´s first talk with Wrex aboard the Normandy is probably the worst conversation in the trilogy, Wrex should have hit Shep.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 06 juillet 2011 - 11:16 .

[Golden Owl]

ThePwener wrote...

Well... Shepard did stuck Legion in the AI core. That was bad.

Actually Miranda put Legion in the AI core...when Shep first brings Legion on board and he, Miranda and Jacob are discussing Legion, Miranda mentions she has stored Legion in the AI core.

[Golden Owl]

Skirata129 wrote...

did anyone else find shepard's inablity to counter thane's argument annoying? when thane started going on about his body doing the assassinations rather than his mind, I would have liked nothing better than the ability to point out that yes, his body did what it was trained to do, but he chose to allow it to be used it that way. when he accepted the job, he accepted the moral responsibility for the killing. his argument that a gun is not responsible for who pulls the trigger was BS, as a gun is unable to avoid situations where it's trigger might be pulled or refuse to be used by someone who would use it to perform violent acts.

How do you guys feel about this?

I love Philosophy of Ethics, one of the facts I love so much about it, is nothing is ever definative, it's always perception...no matter what you argue or how well you argue it, there is always a just as solid counter argument and holes everywhere....the philosophy of ethics/morals will always remain ambiguous.

As for Thane...though I personally disagree with his perception....be it due to his alieness or his own personality or both, is irrelavant at that moment in time....I do find his views rather interesting and can respect his views for what they are. I felt comfortable with Sheps response, Shep did challenge Thanes views, in that Shep did put an alternative perception out there for Thane to consider without pressing the issue...Shep at this point has an important job to do, it's not his place to spend all his time trying to mold his squaddies to fit his own views, unless that squad members views directly imbinge upon the task at hand, Shep does the right thing in letting sleeping dogs lay....leaving a question or thought hanging for the squad member to spend their own time with...Yes....actively attempting to change a squaddies perception...No....I personally felt Shep did the wrong thing in pressing Mordin on the Genophage issue, it really wasn't the time for such debates.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 07 juillet 2011 - 12:20 .

[Golden Owl]

ThePwener wrote...

"I know who they are and what they do.... it doesn't matter" (say it all) is a great response only he understands along with everyone who believes in the Reapers. Vasir doesn't, so only Shepard gets it. It appears that in the case of the Reapers, Shepard doesn't care who he allies with to stop them.

It's not a bad comeback, it's just confusing. I really liked it myself, made my Cerberus Agent's heart soar.

The Vasir arguement drove me mad....I hated Sheps comment personally...but then again I'm no fan of Cerberus......As for Shep having to ally with Cerberus, I didn't like that about the game, though I do understand why Shep works with them in ME2....his gotta work with whoever understands the threat as opposed to sitting on his hands and doing nothing if he had no support.

[The Twilight God]

Nerevar-as wrote...

And Shepard´s first talk with Wrex aboard the Normandy is probably the worst conversation in the trilogy, Wrex should have hit Shep.

...ugh...

[Skirata129]

what did he say in that? I can't really remember.

[The Twilight God]

Skirata129 wrote...

what did he say in that? I can't really remember.

That humanity's little squabble with the Turians and the krogan being infected with the genophage were equal

[ObserverStatus]

I didn't like how there was no way to escape lecturing Tela Vasir and walking right into her "you work for cerberus, you're just like me!" rant. I would have preferred an option to just say "I don't care who you work for, if you mess with my friends you're dead." I also would have preferred an option to remind her that the shadow broker sells to everyone, and his information has probably killed as many people as it has saved.