155 réponses à ce sujet

[Golden Owl]

bobobo878 wrote...

I didn't like how there was no way to escape lecturing Tela Vasir and walking right into her "you work for cerberus, you're just like me!" rant. I would have preferred an option to just say "I don't care who you work for, if you mess with my friends you're dead." I also would have preferred an option to remind her that the shadow broker sells to everyone, and his information has probably killed as many people as it has saved.

I would have liked..."With a threat this big (the Reapers)...the old enemy of my enemy...." nut.

[PauseforEffect]

To echo what I wrote long time ago, Thane's beliefs actually make sense if you consider the situation he was raised in. The Hanar have no army to wage frontal protection so they train specialists for strategic strikes like the Alliance. The people they train have to be good though as Drell are in short number so start with a young one fresh, impressionable and free from societal restraints. Convince the child it's not their fault when they kill so they're not traumatized by the act by telling them they're simply following orders. By placing them in danger, they force the child's involuntary survival instinct (the body) to take over so that their guilty conscience (the mind) will not be disturbed.
Quality assassins in place of lack of quantity soldiers given a fraction of training these Drell specialists receive.

[Shotokanguy]

Shepard always seemed quite above average intelligence to me. Let me make a few points...

1. There are different kinds of intelligence.
2. In a game, we don't have limitless control over our character.
3. Moments like "You're just a machine" come up because it isn't a moment where you need control. What else is there to say? It's a demonstration of Shepard's character moreso than his intelligence, IMO.
4. Stop referring to "We fight or we die". It's a line in ME3, and came off as a very Renegade line to me.
5. There are several examples in this topic of Shepard's intelligence. They're really all over the place. There are moments of simple badass action hero-ness as well, but they're everywhere.

Any seeming lack of intelligence comes from the fact that Shepard is not demonstrating his intelligence most of the time when he talks - he is demonstrating his beliefs and morality, which don't always go hand in hand with logic.

[CroGamer002]

^Eh, Thane does rebuttal for that.

He said Shepard would be guilty since he/she choose that, but if Thane kills Shepard because he/she tried to kill him, Thane would not be guilty since it was self-defense.

[Ahriman]

Shotokanguy wrote...
3. Moments like "You're just a machine" come up because it isn't a
moment where you need control. What else is there to say? It's a
demonstration of Shepard's character moreso than his intelligence, IMO.

Trying to intimidate a "machine" is not just a character. Would smart one tell something to machine just to show that he isn't scared? I don't thing so.

4. Stop referring to "We fight or we die". It's a line in ME3, and came off as a very Renegade line to me.

So what? Renegades are more stupid?

5. There are several examples in this topic of Shepard's intelligence.
They're really all over the place. There are moments of simple badass
action hero-ness as well, but they're everywhere.

There are more examples of Shepard's stupidity. Shepard is incapable in simple planning, that's surely not "above average intelligence".

[Wittand25]

Wizz wrote...
There are more examples of Shepard's stupidity. Shepard is incapable in simple planning, that's surely not "above average intelligence".

My favourite is from ME1 when Shepard tries to comfort Ashley after Eden Prime. The conversation goes something like this:

Ashley: I should have been more careful, so that my team was not as easily ambushed.
Shepard: Geth are perfect for stealth, they make hardly any sound and they do not even breathe.
Ashley: Their heads are flashlights, Shepard.

Modifié par Wittand25, 07 juillet 2011 - 07:30 .

[Eshaye]

Shotokanguy wrote...

Shepard always seemed quite above average intelligence to me. Let me make a few points...

1. There are different kinds of intelligence.
2. In a game, we don't have limitless control over our character.
3. Moments like "You're just a machine" come up because it isn't a moment where you need control. What else is there to say? It's a demonstration of Shepard's character moreso than his intelligence, IMO.
4. Stop referring to "We fight or we die". It's a line in ME3, and came off as a very Renegade line to me.
5. There are several examples in this topic of Shepard's intelligence. They're really all over the place. There are moments of simple badass action hero-ness as well, but they're everywhere.

Any seeming lack of intelligence comes from the fact that Shepard is not demonstrating his intelligence most of the time when he talks - he is demonstrating his beliefs and morality, which don't always go hand in hand with logic.

That makes more sense to me then beliveing Shepard isn't actually very bright, you don't rise so fast and so far whithout being somewhat smart. Also you're making me think there's more then one person writing Shep's lines sometimes..

[Ghost Warrior]

Wittand25 wrote...

My favourite is from ME1 when Shepard tries to comfort Ashley after Eden Prime. The conversation goes something like this:

Ashley: I should have been more careful, so that my team was not as easily ambushed.
Shepard: Geth are perfect for stealth, they make hardly any sound and they do not even breath.
Ashley: There heads are flashlights, Shepard.

lol,I love that one

[Maria Caliban]

Wizz wrote...

So what? Renegades are more stupid?

Yes, Renegades are stupider.

They're also kinda ugly at the end of ME 2. Thankfully, Shepard's crewmembers are all desperate and blind.

[JamieCOTC]

It's science fiction 101. How fast can the Enterprise go? As fast as a writer needs it to go.
How smart/stupid is Shepard? As smart/stupid as a writer can make him/her. It's been that way since Buck Rogers.

[Tonymac]

JamieCOTC wrote...

It's science fiction 101. How fast can the Enterprise go? As fast as a writer needs it to go.
How smart/stupid is Shepard? As smart/stupid as a writer can make him/her. It's been that way since Buck Rogers.

Good point.  They are as smart as they need to be per given situation.

[Hediori]

There's a lot of "Shep's an idiot because s/he can only conjure up one liners to philosophical questions", which is just blatantly wrong. The script writers are severely limited in making Shep's reponses by how the game is designed. It is not designed to be a game of "First you fight these bad guys for thirty minutes, then you sit back and have a two hour discussion on the morality of a differencet species that has developed and evolved under different circumstances than myself."

For Shep to conjure up specific and elaborate retorts, the dialogue system would have to be extensively modifided to allow the player to piece together different bits of words and sentences. As it stands now, if you select one dialogue option, it's really not in the cards for him/her to go off on some five paragraph rant based soley on the little information on what it will contain you've been given by the dialogue wheel.

Could the developers and writers have handled this better? Yes.

Is it completely rubbish in it's current state? Maybe. That's entierly subjective.

[Skirata129]

PrimalEden wrote...

To echo what I wrote long time ago, Thane's beliefs actually make sense if you consider the situation he was raised in. The Hanar have no army to wage frontal protection so they train specialists for strategic strikes like the Alliance. The people they train have to be good though as Drell are in short number so start with a young one fresh, impressionable and free from societal restraints. Convince the child it's not their fault when they kill so they're not traumatized by the act by telling them they're simply following orders. By placing them in danger, they force the child's involuntary survival instinct (the body) to take over so that their guilty conscience (the mind) will not be disturbed.
Quality assassins in place of lack of quantity soldiers given a fraction of training these Drell specialists receive.

I had no problem with him working for the hanar. that was basically work as a soldier where he followed orders. I was just saying that he chose to continue to work as an assassin after he stopped working for the hanar and when he accepted a contract to kill someone, he accepted the moral responsibility for that kill. he could have refused the contract, meaning the kill might have been all reflex and training, but the decision to kill was not.

[A-K-M]

Sigh... if only ME had Alpha Protocols dialogue goodness

youtu.be/VUydx57te9s

youtu.be/N2jYR9g85Xw

Modifié par A-K-M, 07 juillet 2011 - 04:25 .

[PauseforEffect]

@Skirata129
Yes, Thane did choose to freelance as an assassin when released by the Hanar. It was to support his family as he had no other skills sufficient enough to make a living off of. After Irika's death and believing his son was safe, Thane went after targets like Nassana that preyed on weaker individuals. He may have chosen to kill but he did choose targets that were not entirely innocent. As for taking commissions during his freelance days, an assassin is usually required for people who are difficult to kill to begin with. I seriously doubt he would have taken an assignment to murder a spouse whose wife or husband just wants to collect insurance on. Much of what we see of Thane in action involved mercs and corporate executives heavily guarded. Thane may have allowed himself to be used as a weapon to end people's lives, but it was a means to protect others.
It's the same with people who enlist in the military today. No one's forcing them (unless it's a draft) to kill anyone yet they join for reasons beyond an excuse to murder. Sad thing is, they don't get to choose their targets as a friend once told me when he was under orders to shoot a 7 year old girl.

[Therefore_I_Am]

Shepard is smarter, and more understanding, than most. That's for sure...

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

JamieCOTC wrote...

It's science fiction 101. How fast can the Enterprise go? As fast as a writer needs it to go.
How smart/stupid is Shepard? As smart/stupid as a writer can make him/her. It's been that way since Buck Rogers.

There's a difference between "this technology changes what it does based on what the plot needs it to do" and "this character changes character traits based on what the plot needs him/her to have." The technology thing's sort of a gray area for SF, but the characterization thing's bad writing in any genre.

[Skirata129]

PrimalEden wrote...

@Skirata129
Yes, Thane did choose to freelance as an assassin when released by the Hanar. It was to support his family as he had no other skills sufficient enough to make a living off of. After Irika's death and believing his son was safe, Thane went after targets like Nassana that preyed on weaker individuals. He may have chosen to kill but he did choose targets that were not entirely innocent. As for taking commissions during his freelance days, an assassin is usually required for people who are difficult to kill to begin with. I seriously doubt he would have taken an assignment to murder a spouse whose wife or husband just wants to collect insurance on. Much of what we see of Thane in action involved mercs and corporate executives heavily guarded. Thane may have allowed himself to be used as a weapon to end people's lives, but it was a means to protect others.
It's the same with people who enlist in the military today. No one's forcing them (unless it's a draft) to kill anyone yet they join for reasons beyond an excuse to murder. Sad thing is, they don't get to choose their targets as a friend once told me when he was under orders to shoot a 7 year old girl.

there's always a market for unskilled labor, so as unappetizing as the other options may have seemed, they existed. He could have probably gotten a job training in hand to hand comabt or marksmanship if it came down to it. I'm just saying that he can't shrug off responsibility entirely for his contracts as he, at some point in time, made the conscious decision to kill a person for money. how he went about doing that was irrelevant.

btw, why was your friend ordered to shoot a 7 year old girl? the only reasons I can think of would be if she was being used as a human shield or if she had had explosives strapped to her, in which case it makes sense.

[BatmanPWNS]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Shepard is smarter, and more understanding, than most. That's for sure...

His only understanding if you pick a certain dialogue, which usually turn out to be the paragon ones.

Modifié par BatmanPWNS, 07 juillet 2011 - 07:17 .

[Quething]

PrimalEden wrote...

@Skirata129
Yes, Thane did choose to freelance as an assassin when released by the Hanar. It was to support his family as he had no other skills sufficient enough to make a living off of. After Irika's death and believing his son was safe, Thane went after targets like Nassana that preyed on weaker individuals. He may have chosen to kill but he did choose targets that were not entirely innocent. As for taking commissions during his freelance days, an assassin is usually required for people who are difficult to kill to begin with. I seriously doubt he would have taken an assignment to murder a spouse whose wife or husband just wants to collect insurance on. Much of what we see of Thane in action involved mercs and corporate executives heavily guarded. Thane may have allowed himself to be used as a weapon to end people's lives, but it was a means to protect others.

That's not really the point, though, is it? Attempting to justify Thane's killings isn't the same as saying he's not responsible for them. It's exactly the opposite, in fact. If he'd said "I've never felt any particular guilt for my contracts. I've never killed anyone who didn't deserve it," that would be agreeing with Shepard's worldview, and accepting responsibility for his behavior. It would, essentially, make him just like Shepard (who probably doesn't feel much guilt over killing guys like Fist or Charn, and would certainly never duck culpability in those deaths).

[Veex]

I honestly don't think thats the character they wanted to portray. I think generally speaking Shepard is intended to be someone of actions rather than words, and he leads by example more than anything. I'm not sure he would really care whether Thane was trying to avoid the moral implications of his actions as long as he gets the job done.

Regardless, the fact that the dialogue sequence even provoked this discussion has to say something. Maybe BioWare wants us to think about it and debate it, rather than Shepard and Thane.

[PauseforEffect]

@Skirata129
To finish what happened to my friend, he went back into the military despite what the experiences did to him. I never asked why he had to execute a little girl but it was obvious that it broke him. There are some things people cannot bring themselves to pry into when a hardened infantry soldier is sobbing uncontrollably. Perhaps someone on this forum who has served in the military can tell us. But I don't mean to tell this story to guilt-trip you. It's a comparison to what happens frequently to people trained as Thane was.
You are right on the mark to compare Thane to a soldier as there are individuals who come back to society and cannot adapt to civilian life after having been conditioned so long for combat. What often happens to people is that they gravitate towards what is familiar no matter how horrible the experience. Often, by the time they're repeating past horrors, they've adjusted, become numbed to it. Kill often enough, the shock wears off and before you know it, murder is as routine as butchering livestock for the market.
The Hanar did Thane a disservice in not rehabilitating him with other skills but they did teach him not to feel guilt as a way for him to cope with the murders he committed. I don't believe he denies it's wrong to kill unnecessarily so him taking responsibility may not be too much of an issue. That he can discern between innocent and guilty helps to believe that he picked assignments that were not morally reprehensible.
It may not be too much of a stretch to believe that Thane did try to look for other work (especially with the impact his wife had on him when he first saw her). But supporting a family is difficult and since assassination can pay very well, Thane may have resorted to it as it was, he admits, the only skills he had for it.

[Skirata129]

I don't see why teaching him not to feel guilt is a bad thing, but teaching him to avoid accountability is. Teaching him to feel guilty for his successful hits would be the equivalent of training a dog to pee inside and then rubbing its nose in it.