395 réponses à ce sujet

[demonic_cookie]

I don't understand what you're arguing. She seduced Nef, because it was more fun this way, to have a talented sheltered artist pining for her on her own free will... She was having her fun, because sociopaths are easily bored. Yet when she saw someone she truly wanted right this moment ("I need this" were the words), she went straight to mind-controlling to get what she wants. She attempted rape. There is no indication she hadn't done it before, and even if she hadn't, she doesn't get a 'first attempt for free' pass.

[punchbag]

Yeah, Morinth is a rapist. In fact, she's almost a necrophile (she kills people during sex, and probably has sex with them until she's satisfied even though they're already dead).
Improve her? Rewrite her character to not be a rapist and make her 'sexable'.

[Icinix]

I thought her head smeared into the floor was her improved form.

[punchbag]

Icinix wrote...

I thought her head smeared into the floor was her improved form.

Haha, yeah.

Actually I like Morinth just because I find her interesting, but she's a terrible person and I don't think that can ever change.

[D.Kain]

You people just don't understand.. Evil people make better friends. No sarcasm.

[Harid]

She's an sociopathic life sucking 'vampire'.

She can't "improve." The character is written to be irredeemable, based on past actions. At the very best she could institutionalize herself like Samara's other daughters, but I assume she's simply killed too many to avoid Justicar justice..

Modifié par Harid, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:45 .

[D.Kain]

Harid wrote...

She's an sociopathic life sucking 'vampire'.

She can't "improve." The character is written to be irredeemable, based on past actions. At the very best she could institutionalize herself like Samara's other daughters, but I assume she's simply killed too many to avoid Justicar justice..

See ''redeeming'' her would make her worse, not improve her.

Modifié par D.Kain, 13 juillet 2011 - 04:47 .

[Xeranx]

demonic_cookie wrote...

I don't understand what you're arguing. She seduced Nef, because it was more fun this way, to have a talented sheltered artist pining for her on her own free will... She was having her fun, because sociopaths are easily bored. Yet when she saw someone she truly wanted right this moment ("I need this" were the words), she went straight to mind-controlling to get what she wants. She attempted rape. There is no indication she hadn't done it before, and even if she hadn't, she doesn't get a 'first attempt for free' pass.

No one seems to understand what I'm arguing.

If a woman seduces me and gets me to have sex with her, can I claim she raped me?

I don't know why you're attributing something to Morinth that, as far as I know, isn't shown in-game.  As I've said before alot of things concerning Morinth are kept in the dark.  To say that it was more fun for her to seduce Nef is to begin talking about whatever motivations Morinth has, but the truth of the matter is that we don't know what Morinth's motivations are.  This is why saying that she attempted rape (nevermind that she doesn't rape anyone) on Shepard is a statement without anything to back it up.  I could say that she wanted to get information and that would be entirely possible. 

Your acknowledgment of there being no indication of her mind-controlling anyone before should tell you that there's a whole lot of nothing that really explains Morinth.  Why people try to categorize her without anything concrete or very little to go on I don't know. 

[Xeranx]

punchbag wrote...

Yeah, Morinth is a rapist. In fact, she's almost a necrophile (she kills people during sex, and probably has sex with them until she's satisfied even though they're already dead).
Improve her? Rewrite her character to not be a rapist and make her 'sexable'.

Harid wrote...

She's an sociopathic life sucking 'vampire'.

She
can't "improve." The character is written to be irredeemable, based on
past actions. At the very best she could institutionalize herself like
Samara's other daughters, but I assume she's simply killed too many to
avoid Justicar justice..

That may have been their intention, but as it stands Morinth's character is completely malleable.  And as that is the case I can't say that Morinth is an irredeemable figure.  She has a lot of wiggle room to be someone contrary to what others believe as she's written currently.  That might change in the future.  If so the writers better do a damn good job as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par Xeranx, 13 juillet 2011 - 05:46 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I'm going to take a stand and say that Morinth is bad.

[punchbag]

I'm willing to take Samara's word on what an Ardat-Yakshi is. And if she says Morinth is a life-sucker and a mind controller, than I'm sure she is. If she isn't, than Samara isn't much of a Justicar.

And I agree with D.Kain that redemption doesn't improve her.
Being an evil character is what makes her unique and interesting.

Modifié par punchbag, 13 juillet 2011 - 10:33 .

[PMC65]

Xeranx wrote...

No one seems to understand what I'm arguing.

To be honest, I think no one understands because you are looking at what "may" be in ME3 while the rest of us are looking at what "was" in ME2. Bioware clearly shows her as a demon in ME2, a predator that should be stopped. And that is where the disconnect is happening, I think that you are saying that they did not show another side of her or go deeper in her character to say if she was truly evil? ... That there may be a side that will be revealed by Bioware in ME3? As in, Bioware reveals another layer to her character that would make her redeemable? Whether it is find a cure or have her turn away from her darker side or go live with her sisters or fall in love with Shepard? ... What would you like Bioware to do with her character? 

I might have thought redeeming her was possible if in ME2 at the cabin scene she had told Shepard how she had lived a horrible life, done things that she was not proud of, mourned the loss of her mother, etc. She could even be romanceable but refuse to meld with Shepard because she does not want to risk killing Shepard. But that is not what Bioware put in that section. One could argue that she didn't know that Shepard would die, but really? Morinth does not strike me as a stupid person. She clearly would know the risk and so I would think that she would have refused to meld and loved Shepard in the human way.

Now, based on the above (cabin scene) does that mean that they can't redeem her in ME3? Nope. Anything is possible. I personally don't think it is likely, but I have been wrong so MANY times in my life, what's one more time. Now the same source (Samara) that tells you just how evil she is also tells how she was a very lovable child, full of life, headstrong ... and you can tell that she was clearly her mother's favorite. Samara loved her daughter and I felt the loss when she killed her daughter. There was no winner in that moment. Samara mourned her daughter. I dio not know if Morinth mourned her mother if she lived ... I would think that if there was any part of that little girl in her she would have. Did she? Did Bioware add that layer? ... We will have to wait for ME3 to see if Bioware keeps her as a demon or does decide to add another layer that has a surprising twist in her character.

To me, she was a demon and needed to be stopped ... But look at it this way, if they do make her character change in ME3, you can say "I told you so! I knew that we weren't seeing all of her!" Or at least have your Shepard go off in the sunset with her. 

But if I am still not understanding what you are saying or trying to say, then I humbly apologize. 
 

[ApplesauceBandit]

I hate Morinth, even on my Chaotic renegade play-through i felt terrible about betraying Samara, i'm replaying it now because it went a little to perfect for me(no deaths on the suicide mission), but i shall not be betraying Samara again. Worst feeling ever! (well..except Hangovers)

[Harid]

You have no reason to betray Samara for some broad you just met.

That was the problem with that choice. Even if you are playing an Evil Shepard, Samara is bound by oath to follow you, when Morinth isn't bound by jack ****.

I half wish she randomly killed your crew like Yurt in Demon Souls for making the stupid decision to keep her alive. Bioware doesn't have the balls to do that, though.

[D.Kain]

Harid wrote...

You have no reason to betray Samara for some broad you just met.

That was the problem with that choice. Even if you are playing an Evil Shepard, Samara is bound by oath to follow you, when Morinth isn't bound by jack ****.

I half wish she randomly killed your crew like Yurt in Demon Souls for making the stupid decision to keep her alive. Bioware doesn't have the balls to do that, though.

Look at it this was.

A Lamborgini swears an oath to you but then you find a Bugati and dump the Lamborgini for it.

Morinth has more potential as a biotic and infiltrator imo.

[demonic_cookie]

Xeranx, she does not seduce Shepard. She mind-controls Shepard. If you don't have enough morality points, you only answer option is "... cannot... think..." as you prepare to meld with a person you KNOW will kill you. So she does attempt rape at least once.

You are right that there are a few things that we don't know about Morinth. Not 'many' things, but several. You know what? From what Bioware shows us, we can safely guess that she wasn't a vigilante fighting crime with her super mind-powers, especially if you factor in throwing a brain-washed village full of people at her mother to buy her some more time. I suppose you're going to argue that was a village of murderers?

This whole "she was a misunderstood victim all along" - it's a terrible cliche for a villain the scope of Morinth, and it belongs in bad fanfic and not in the source material. In the same pile as Voldermort/Hermione Granger fluffy domestic bliss.

[Goneaviking]

Xeranx wrote...

demonic_cookie wrote...

I don't understand what you're arguing. She seduced Nef, because it was more fun this way, to have a talented sheltered artist pining for her on her own free will... She was having her fun, because sociopaths are easily bored. Yet when she saw someone she truly wanted right this moment ("I need this" were the words), she went straight to mind-controlling to get what she wants. She attempted rape. There is no indication she hadn't done it before, and even if she hadn't, she doesn't get a 'first attempt for free' pass.

No one seems to understand what I'm arguing.

If a woman seduces me and gets me to have sex with her, can I claim she raped me?

I don't know why you're attributing something to Morinth that, as far as I know, isn't shown in-game.  As I've said before alot of things concerning Morinth are kept in the dark.  To say that it was more fun for her to seduce Nef is to begin talking about whatever motivations Morinth has, but the truth of the matter is that we don't know what Morinth's motivations are.  This is why saying that she attempted rape (nevermind that she doesn't rape anyone) on Shepard is a statement without anything to back it up.  I could say that she wanted to get information and that would be entirely possible. 

Your acknowledgment of there being no indication of her mind-controlling anyone before should tell you that there's a whole lot of nothing that really explains Morinth.  Why people try to categorize her without anything concrete or very little to go on I don't know. 

We ALL understand what you're arguing, it's just that your argument is unconvincing.

In Samara's loyalty mission you get Morinth to invite you to her room and then keep her occupied until Samara arrives. Eventually
she straddles your lap and you're presented with a small number of
options, dependent on how much Paragon/Renegade you've earned. If
you don't have enough of either the only option you have is to stammer
and just as she's about to beginning melding with you Samara kicks in
the door and it's on between them.

In that scene the
Paragon/Renegade options are presented as will power, if you have
exercised either of them enough during the rest of the game you don't
have the willpower to resist and if Samara hadn't kicked the door in
your character would be dead. Critical Mission Failure.

The scene certainly seemed like mind control when I watched it, my wishy-washy Shepherd never had a chance.

You keep insisting that Samara was either wrong or outright dishonest in her assertions about Morinth, but the only reason that you offer is that she is your primary source of information about the Y-A. Nothing in the game paints her as dishonest, ruthless absolutely but not dishonest.

If you have any actual evidence from the game that Samara is dishonest I'd be willing to see it, but lack of evidence that she's being honest is not the same as evidence that she's being dishonest.

As for Morinth's dishonesty, well you see plenty of evidence of that. At no point during her attempted seduction of Shepherd does she explain that there's a chance he might not survive the encounter. Instead she keeps putting in little comments about how she enjoys the look on someone's face right before she kills them (when viewing the fencing sword in the apartment).

[punchbag]

I agree with Goneaviking^ and demonic_cookie^^

One good thing about Morinth is you can use her for one playthrough just to get her "organic mind control" power (whatever it's called) for Shepard, and then do another playthrough with the same Shepard where you keep that power but can save Samara instead if you wish.

Modifié par punchbag, 13 juillet 2011 - 10:39 .

[Ashira Shepard]

thatguy212 wrote...

So alot of people dislike Morinth for obvious reasons, so what would be some ways to make her a more appealing character and not just some character you hate and choose to kill everytime? maybe something like making her into a more sympathetic character or have it so a paragon shepard would be able to help her learn to control her addiction to kill? what are some of the ideas you can think of?

I'd really like it if they showed more to her than just "I like manipulating and mind-raping people to death." I'm sure plenty of people would really like her to just be that, but I can't help feeling that there is a lot more behind the twisted veneer than what little we saw in ME2.

I would really like to know how it all started, and I would love it if she wasn't just "born evil." It'd make for a better background if events made her the way she is - I'd also like to know how she feels about her sisters since we already know what she apparently thinks of her mother.

[MACharlie1]

Honestly, making her all deep and introspective takes away from her character. We aren't supposed to like her. She murders children pretty much. Honestly, I've seen enough grey villains for a life time. What we need are bad guys who we know are bad and have every reason to hate them. Not every villain should be Darth Vader with this sad and tragic past. I want villains who are bad just because they are simply rotten. Morinth should remain that "I suck like a vampire because it gives me power and I LIKE IT." Keep it simple.

[Saaziel]

I think the point was to have her be an actual choice.

As it is there is no reason to choose her over Samara , except for Dominate. You can choose between a trained warrior , skilled in investigations & biotics , Or , a night clubbing art critic ... Just to make sure we're on the same page here; We are going after The Collectors , not Post-modernist Hipsters... Although it would make for an interesting side quest theme.

A moral dilemma is something people perceive as adding a more nuanced tone to this "choice" , I don't necessarily agree , but it would certainly make it more of a choice , instead of a no brainer .

Modifié par Saaziel, 14 juillet 2011 - 01:37 .

[Xeranx]

demonic_cookie wrote...

Xeranx, she does not seduce Shepard. She mind-controls Shepard. If you don't have enough morality points, you only answer option is "... cannot... think..." as you prepare to meld with a person you KNOW will kill you. So she does attempt rape at least once.

You are right that there are a few things that we don't know about Morinth. Not 'many' things, but several. You know what? From what Bioware shows us, we can safely guess that she wasn't a vigilante fighting crime with her super mind-powers, especially if you factor in throwing a brain-washed village full of people at her mother to buy her some more time. I suppose you're going to argue that was a village of murderers?

This whole "she was a misunderstood victim all along" - it's a terrible cliche for a villain the scope of Morinth, and it belongs in bad fanfic and not in the source material. In the same pile as Voldermort/Hermione Granger fluffy domestic bliss.

If you go through that scene again, Shepard is able to agree with her when she's not on his/her lap.  The last bit of the supposed attempted rape has her saying, "Shh, darling.  Just relax and hear my words" before Samara barges in.  While there's an indication a meld may occur it doesn't state that a meld was definitely in the works.  I know that seems incredibly stubborn, but that's the truth of it.  I can still say she would have tried to extract information from Shepard.  Using the neutral responses by Shepard one response from Morinth is, "So quick to agree" almost as though she were surprised.  Why that was thrown in there, I have no idea.  Everything, however, is still left open to interpretation.

I still contend that the village situation is suspect because of who's telling the story, when the story is told, and there being nothing concrete to say that what was recounted is indeed factual.  Morinth only speaks of Nef and in her loft everything said by her is in reference to being contested by someone or pursued by someone.

Another cliche is the two or one-dimensional villain with no reasoning to what they're doing other than they serve to be a point of contention for a hero.  Evil for evil's sake is just bad.  The way Morinth was written as she is I'm surprised she didn't maniacally laugh from time to time.

[Harid]

D.Kain wrote...

Harid wrote...

You have no reason to betray Samara for some broad you just met.

That was the problem with that choice. Even if you are playing an Evil Shepard, Samara is bound by oath to follow you, when Morinth isn't bound by jack ****.

I half wish she randomly killed your crew like Yurt in Demon Souls for making the stupid decision to keep her alive. Bioware doesn't have the balls to do that, though.

Look at it this was.

A Lamborgini swears an oath to you but then you find a Bugati and dump the Lamborgini for it.

Morinth has more potential as a biotic and infiltrator imo.

It's more closer to the Family Guy analogy of a Brand new boat that you will own for sure versus a mystery box.

Morinth fans chose the mystery box.

No one chooses the box.

You *as Shepard* do not have the 400+ years to wait for Morinth to reach a Matriarch level Biotic, when you already have one that's honorsworn to you, and one that not only has Cerberus level intel on her, but also has real world displays of her power.  All you know about Morinth, conversely, is that she likes to mind control ,rape, and kill artsy people.

The choice was a stupid choice.  Samara, and by extension Morinth, are both people you should have gotten earlier, and you should have spent more time knowing Morinth (through quests) to actually make an educated choice for her.  But as far as you know, you have invited a plague, secretly to your crew, to your ship that could potentially kill everyone on board if it tickled her fancy, as she's a sociopath.

[Xeranx]

Goneaviking wrote...

We ALL understand what you're arguing, it's just that your argument is unconvincing.

In Samara's loyalty mission you get Morinth to invite you to her room and then keep her occupied until Samara arrives. Eventually
she straddles your lap and you're presented with a small number of
options, dependent on how much Paragon/Renegade you've earned. If
you don't have enough of either the only option you have is to stammer
and just as she's about to beginning melding with you Samara kicks in
the door and it's on between them.

In that scene the
Paragon/Renegade options are presented as will power, if you have
exercised either of them enough during the rest of the game you don't
have the willpower to resist and if Samara hadn't kicked the door in
your character would be dead. Critical Mission Failure.

The scene certainly seemed like mind control when I watched it, my wishy-washy Shepherd never had a chance.

You keep insisting that Samara was either wrong or outright dishonest in her assertions about Morinth, but the only reason that you offer is that she is your primary source of information about the Y-A. Nothing in the game paints her as dishonest, ruthless absolutely but not dishonest.

If you have any actual evidence from the game that Samara is dishonest I'd be willing to see it, but lack of evidence that she's being honest is not the same as evidence that she's being dishonest.

As for Morinth's dishonesty, well you see plenty of evidence of that. At no point during her attempted seduction of Shepherd does she explain that there's a chance he might not survive the encounter. Instead she keeps putting in little comments about how she enjoys the look on someone's face right before she kills them (when viewing the fencing sword in the apartment).

I made a statement about that loft scene to demonic and I think that can suffice for my answer on it.

I insist that it's entirely possible for Samara to be dishonest.  I brought up the bit about the Eclipse Mercenary and how she insisted that the mercenary was armed yet Shepard had it right in saying the merc was unarmed.  Her being defensive when first discussing Morinth talking about how dangerous she is.  Shepard can say, "sounds like you" to which she'll say it sounds like Shepard as well.  Also keep in mind that Samara herself states that she revelled in combat.  She was a mercenary herself.  The only time she says she stuck up for anyone was on the slaving run.  Then she lectures them on the virtues of self-sufficiency, etc.  Could that not be something a con-person would say to someone who might be against slavery?  She said she studied up on mythology.  That goes very well in hand with studying our history. 

I'm not going to give her a bye because people say Justicars are forthright and everything that's good.  The same is said about people in law enforcement yet we've had several cases in which people who are supposed to enforce laws breaking them because their word will be taken over a regular civilian.

In regards to Morinth's dishonesty, when does she get the chance to lie?  When does Shepard ask a question referring to her killing others and she just clams up or starts spinning some kind of tale? 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

^Gee I don't know maybe the whole "Naaaaw you're strong enough to survive this!" bit.
That seems pretty goddamn dishonest.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 14 juillet 2011 - 02:21 .