395 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

tobynator89 wrote...

I like morinth, she's the only intelligent all out evil character who is 100% unapologetic about who and what she is.

The Reapers seem pretty unapologetic...

[demonic_cookie]

Why are you so caught up in this rape thing?
Even if Morinth is a rapist it doesnt make her less of a good squad mate.

The original question I was answering (and Xeranx was asking in one of his posts) was "what makes Morinth so evil anyway?". I answered with "she is a rapist." Xeranx says Morinth is not a rapist. I disagree.

Her value as a squadmate is not in question.

[tobynator89]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

tobynator89 wrote...

I like morinth, she's the only intelligent all out evil character who is 100% unapologetic about who and what she is.

The Reapers seem pretty unapologetic...

the reapers are characters? Aren't they just generic unexplainable force of nature threat to all civilization sort of things? (I.E the most boring part of any story like this)

[D.Kain]

demonic_cookie wrote...

Why are you so caught up in this rape thing?
Even if Morinth is a rapist it doesnt make her less of a good squad mate.

The original question I was answering (and Xeranx was asking in one of his posts) was "what makes Morinth so evil anyway?". I answered with "she is a rapist." Xeranx says Morinth is not a rapist. I disagree.

Her value as a squadmate is not in question.

Ok sorry then.

[Xeranx]

demonic_cookie wrote...

Morinth doesn't rape, period.

Where are you getting this from, really? I just want to know. I'm seriously interested, I will not even try to debate with you whether 'unrepentantly evil' is three-dimensional or two, I just need to know why in the world you think that Morinth is not a rapist.

This is how it went in my recent renegade playthrough: John Shepard picks up Morinth in a bar. They talk about power and art. They go home to Morinth. They talk some more about safety, Morinth climbs into John's lap.

John Shepard: (renegade option) You keep talking about how you're so powerful (might not be the exact wording, don't remember) but you're nowhere near my league.
Morinth: So strong... I need this *her eyes go black, which indicates she is using biotics and/or gearing up for a meld* Look into my eyes and tell me you want me. Tell me you'd kill for me. Anything I want.
John: *doesn't have enough renegade points to resist her* I want you... I'll kill for you (she is mind-controlling him now. everything she does to him is non-consentual from now on, and any sex they might have is rape because he is under the influence of mind-control)
Morinth: *leans closer* Relax... This will all be over soon...
Samara: *barges through the door dramatically*

How is what she is doing to Shepard not attempted rape? Explain.

I've already stated what she could be doing because there's no way of knowing what was going to happen, but the exact words for the bold part are (I think I stated them already too): "Shh, darling.  Just relax and hear my words."  What about that screams rape?

Modifié par Xeranx, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:47 .

[AngelicMachinery]

So, it's not rape if it's mind control?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

So, it's not rape if it's mind control?

Yep!

[Dean_the_Young]

It's not mind control either, unless you consider 'seduction' mind control.

Morinth twists people's emotions until all but the strongest-willed people would happily die for her... but she does it by mundane techniques, like Samara tells us. She acts. She appeals to emotions.

[D.Kain]

What is mind control anyway? how does it work? Can all asari do it with practice?

[tobynator89]

What morinth is doing is sort of a lovely rape/murder mix combo.

She forces the victim to submit to a sexual act that they have not consented too, whether the victim is concious or not does not change it. It's not as if it matters though, the victim is dead anyway.

I still like morith though, It's nice to find a truly malicious unapologetic character without any glaring mental health issues and I can perfectly understand her line of reasoning for becoming what she is.

Renegade shep is a bit of a sadistic **** herself (still love her) so I can easily see why'd she get nervous about samara, and thinking: ****, she's still usefull, and when she sees morinth she goes: Opportunity!

[Trakarg]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I don't understand what people find appealing about the evil space succubus....

her attitude. 

Morinth "I mind rape people! Go hedonism!"
D.Kain: That's sexy! I can haz sexy time with you?
Morinth: *Slasher smile* Suuuure
D.Kain: Yay! *dies*

Look, I romance Liara, and will not cheat on her. I still like Morint as a person.:happy:

So you like remorseless serial killers who slaughter innocents just to get a high?



Okay.  Just checking.

[demonic_cookie]

Xeranx, she says different words if you choose Renegade options. If you're Paragon, you're being indignant and 'playing games', and she needs to make you talk. If you're Renegade, you're just being confrontational and a jerk, and she needs your power. ("So strong... I need this") So she is mind-controlling you to get sex from you.

Morinth twists people's emotions until all but the strongest-willed people would happily die for her... but she does it by mundane techniques, like Samara tells us. She acts. She appeals to emotions.

She also uses mind-control on Shepard.

[AquamanOS]

Morinth is pretty clearly just trying to get a second crack at eating Shepard's brain. I do not see how anyone cannot see that. The evil smile she gives if you agree to it, and the way she looks when you die says it all.

I applaud Renagades for refusing her and making good use of her as long as you can (and getting a potential problem in Samara out of the way) but that's where Morinth stands. She's not suddenly going to turn good, and she isn't helping out of the goodness of her heart. Eventually she'll be a problem down the road, whether she just gives up and runs off, or outright betrays you.

[Grunk]

I think Morinth can be a very interesting character and I hope to see her respond to situations and involve, rather than being a silly OMG SHE HAS TO DIE kind of person. This is about a fictional character, after all. I think it's far more interesting to have a character in the story that actually threatens you/is actively out to get you as the protagonist yet is on your side for narrative reasons vs. other characters.

Like Jack. LOL SCREW YOU CERBERUS DOG. Then she gets on board and she's tame as a kitten and never threatens anything in anyway. That's boring and sterile.

[silentassassin264]

demonic_cookie wrote...

Xeranx, she says different words if you choose Renegade options. If you're Paragon, you're being indignant and 'playing games', and she needs to make you talk. If you're Renegade, you're just being confrontational and a jerk, and she needs your power. ("So strong... I need this") So she is mind-controlling you to get sex from you.

Morinth twists people's emotions until all but the strongest-willed people would happily die for her... but she does it by mundane techniques, like Samara tells us. She acts. She appeals to emotions.

She also uses mind-control on Shepard.

The mind control was apart of her sex routine.  Some people like S&M and Morinth likes that.  It was not rape because as far as she knew you were all down for that which is why you went to her apartment in the first place.  That is weird and kinky but as far as she knewe it was consensual since Shepard does not say otherwise to avoid blowing cover before Samara barges in.  You are accusing Morinth of something assuming she had prior knowledge of something which there was no way she could have known and would have run away if she had known.  Morinith does not just mind control people randomly and sex them which would be rape.  She seduces them and when they already want her she does her mind control thing and has sex which is not rape.  She is a serial killer but we have no knowledge of her being a serial rapist.

AquamanOS wrote...

Morinth is pretty clearly just trying to get a second crack at eating Shepard's brain. I do not see how anyone cannot see that. The evil smile she gives if you agree to it, and the way she looks when you die says it all.

I applaud Renagades for refusing her and making good use of her as long as you can (and getting a potential problem in Samara out of the way) but that's where Morinth stands. She's not suddenly going to turn good, and she isn't helping out of the goodness of her heart. Eventually she'll be a problem down the road, whether she just gives up and runs off, or outright betrays you.

Why/How would Morinth betray you?  She is not stupid.  The only reward she would get for turning Shep to the Reapers is death. 

[Dean_the_Young]

demonic_cookie wrote...

Morinth twists people's emotions until all but the strongest-willed people would happily die for her... but she does it by mundane techniques, like Samara tells us. She acts. She appeals to emotions.

She also uses mind-control on Shepard.

She doesn't. She does just what Samara said she would: be an incredibly talented seductress. Shepard can either keep his/her head... or not. Yes, the famed Commander Shepard faces a persuasion check from another character. In the same way Shepard's persuasions aren't mind control, neither is Morinth as described by the lore expert on Morinth, her mother and hunter Samara.

[demonic_cookie]

It was not rape because as far as she knew you were all down for that which is why you went to her apartment in the first place.

You meet a woman (I am assuming you are a heterosexual male here) in a bar. You flirt, and you take her home with the intention to have sex. Are you entitled to have sex with her once she crosses the threshold? Does she have a right to refuse and walk out, unharmed, at any time during the encounter, without you attacking her and having sex with her against her will? I really hope you know the answer to that question, but just in case you don't: yes, she can refuse anytime. She can refuse while you're talking, she can refuse after you kiss for the first time, she can refuse once you're in the bed and halfway to happyland.

Morinth is not giving her victims the possibility to refuse. It is especially obvious if you use persuasion options when talking with her. You express contempt of her, so it's not really obvious that you want to bang her there and now. Yet she still refuses you choice. She will have sex with you whether you like it or not. And that is rape.

Edited to add:

She does just what Samara said she would: be an incredibly talented seductress.

She seduces you into swearing you to kill for her? Tha is bull. Her eyes go black. The lighting in the scene changes to codify that something strange is going on. She is mind-controlling Shepard, not persuading him/her.

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:04 .

[D.Kain]

Trakarg wrote...

So you like remorseless serial killers who slaughter innocents just to get a high?



Okay.  Just checking.

No, no, that part of her character I don't care about. There are more important things that I look at in a person. 

[silentassassin264]

demonic_cookie wrote...

It was not rape because as far as she knew you were all down for that which is why you went to her apartment in the first place.

You meet a woman (I am assuming you are a heterosexual male here) in a bar. You flirt, and you take her home with the intention to have sex. Are you entitled to have sex with her once she crosses the threshold? Does she have a right to refuse and walk out, unharmed, at any time during the encounter, without you attacking her and having sex with her against her will? I really hope you know the answer to that question, but just in case you don't: yes, she can refuse anytime. She can refuse while you're talking, she can refuse after you kiss for the first time, she can refuse once you're in the bed and halfway to happyland.

Morinth is not giving her victims the possibility to refuse. It is especially obvious if you use persuasion options when talking with her. You express contempt of her, so it's not really obvious that you want to bang her there and now. Yet she still refuses you choice. She will have sex with you whether you like it or not. And that is rape.

You assumed incorrectly.  And you missed the point.  The conversation in the apartment goes to the tune of you were dtf and you are doing naughty foreplay to get her all hot and bothered.  That was the whole point of the mission.  That is why Samara told you you would be in danger.  Shepard is supposed to go all ready for sex and Morinth jumps on to that.  You were not supposed to be refusing in the first place.  Yes the persuade options allow you to break out of what you were supposed to do but that was not the mission nor why you went there.  The whole persuasion check and having the ability to choose Morinth or Samara was never supposed to happen according to Samara's plan.  You were supposed to attract her attention.  Get her all on you and right before the sex, Samara comes in with Morinth unawares and kills her.  If you don't have the persusion check you just go on with the plan in which it is not rape because you are willing.  If you do use the check then you resist her and she doesn't have sex with you which is also not rape.  And if you were specifically bringing up the stupid paragon option, you were flirting with her and obviously not being paragon to lead to that situation in the first place.  She seems confused and tries to continue because you had been saying all the things to "seduce her" and then all of a sudden you talk about how she has killed before which would understandably seem rather out of character from the person she was attracted to but that was just it.  It was out of character and she was wondering why you all of a sudden tried to ruin the moment when you two were about to do it.  Morinth wasn't omniscient.  You are trying to penalize her for something she didn't know.

[D.Kain]

AquamanOS wrote...

Morinth is pretty clearly just trying to get a second crack at eating Shepard's brain. I do not see how anyone cannot see that. The evil smile she gives if you agree to it, and the way she looks when you die says it all.

Again? Seriously? Go rewatch that scene until you spot that you are wrong. 

AquamanOS wrote...
Eventually she'll be a problem down the road, whether she just gives up and runs off, or outright betrays you.

And what can actually make her run away if a suicide mission didn't?

[Quething]

Y'all arguing that Morinth doesn't use mind control and thus she's not a rapist....

... you realize what her bonus power is, right?

[D.Kain]

Quething wrote...

Y'all arguing that Morinth doesn't use mind control and thus she's not a rapist....

... you realize what her bonus power is, right?

Yes but please exsplain how the hell does that work lore/ME science wise??

[Quething]

D.Kain wrote...

Yes but please exsplain how the hell does that work lore/ME science wise??

Well if you mean "how does Shepard use it," idk, probably the same way soldier!Shep uses Slam. If you mean "how does it work for Morinth," I'd say that's pretty straightforward. Lore says "asari are telepathic," lore says "Ardat-Yakshi telepathy works more powerfully and violently than normal asari telepathy," lore says "A-Y get more powerful with every person they kill." These all combine quite neatly to "Morinth has telepathy so powerful she can not only connect to another mind, but control it."

Probably not at those distances and with that kind of speed, naturally, but one can be expected to make some concessions to fun gameplay.

Modifié par Quething, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:47 .

[ThePwener]

You can kill her. That'll improve her character a lot.

[Dean_the_Young]

Quething wrote...

Y'all arguing that Morinth doesn't use mind control and thus she's not a rapist....

... you realize what her bonus power is, right?

You realize the concept of the difference between gameplay and lore, right?

No? So sad.