395 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePwener]

Kind of strange that Morinth is considered the space vampire when it's her mother who possesses the power to suck the life out of people. Funny....

[Dean_the_Young]

demonic_cookie wrote...

Morinth is not giving her victims the possibility to refuse. It is especially obvious if you use persuasion options when talking with her. You express contempt of her, so it's not really obvious that you want to bang her there and now. Yet she still refuses you choice. She will have sex with you whether you like it or not. And that is rape.

Uh, by the time Shepard is there, Shepard's already gone out of his/her way to seduce her. Like, you know, accepting her invitation to go to her place, with the subtext of 'to have sex' being the entire point of the deception.

She does just what Samara said she would: be an incredibly talented seductress.

She seduces you into swearing you to kill for her? Tha is bull. Her eyes go black. The lighting in the scene changes to codify that something strange is going on. She is mind-controlling Shepard, not persuading him/her.

She's an Asari. All their eyes go black when they're about to mate. Its not like hers go black when she uses her bonus power either.

'What's strange' is the SCARY OMINOUS FORESHADOWING of what's about to happen. Lighting effects are pretty common across the game.

If you think real people don't and haven't been persuaded to promise stupid things and do even worse for a woman on the verge of sex... well, you've had a good run, but it does happen.

[demonic_cookie]

And if you were specifically bringing up the stupid paragon option

I'm actually talking about the Renegade option, which is basically saying: "you keep saying we're alike, but you're nowhere near my league", which is pretty contemptuous.

And it is you who is missing the point, which is (that goes to you, Dean the Young, who thinks that flirting an accepting an invitation means concent): no matter if you think you're there to have sex, your partner still has a right to refuse. If you take away that right, you're raping that person, because the person's right to refuse sex has been taken away. It is the same as bringing someone home, then putting a knife to his/her throat and saying "we're having sex now". No matter if that person went in with the intention to have sex or not, you're still raping them because you're taking the choice away from them.

If you think real people don't and haven't been persuaded to promise
stupid things and do even worse for a woman on the verge of sex... well,
you've had a good run, but it does happen.

What does not happen is a fully aware intergalactic hero going to his/her death with a smile without mind-control.

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:02 .

[Quething]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Quething wrote...

Y'all arguing that Morinth doesn't use mind control and thus she's not a rapist....

... you realize what her bonus power is, right?

You realize the concept of the difference between gameplay and lore, right?

No? So sad.

Aww, that's cute. But you can run along now, the grown-ups are talking.

[ThePwener]

Uhm.... Dean..... sorry to burst your bubble, but yes, it is rape. If your Paragon/Renegade score is too low (likely), then shepard has no other option but be mindcontrolled into submission. Shepard never intended (NEVER!) to have sex or meld with her. That my friend, is rape.

[Dean_the_Young]

Quething wrote...

Aww, that's cute. But you can run along now, the grown-ups are talking.

A first resort to paternalism? If that isn't the first sign of someone who doesn't qualify as mature, it's only because ignoring the argument to attack the person is more telling.

[Dean_the_Young]

ThePwener wrote...

Uhm.... Dean..... sorry to burst your bubble, but yes, it is rape. If your Paragon/Renegade score is too low (likely), then shepard has no other option but be mindcontrolled into submission. Shepard never intended (NEVER!) to have sex or meld with her. That my friend, is rape.

Except Shepard did, if Shepard's Paragon/Renegade score was too low. Samara warned you about this more than once: Morinth's acting ability, personal charm, and empathy could make anyone not only willing, but want to.

This would hardly be the first time canonical views have been assigned to Shepard against player's desires.

[ThePwener]

Nooooooo.... Shepard was brainwashed, not enticed. It didn't have anything to do with player choice because it was out of your hands.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]demonic_cookie wrote...

And it is you who is missing the point, which is (that goes to you, Dean the Young, who thinks that flirting an accepting an invitation means concent): no matter if you think you're there to have sex, your partner still has a right to refuse. If you take away that right, you're raping that person, because the person's right to refuse sex has been taken away. It is the same as bringing someone home, then putting a knife to his/her throat and saying "we're having sex now". No matter if that person went in with the intention to have sex or not, you're still raping them because you're taking the choice away from them.[/quote]This site needs a good eye roll. And you need to not assign views on others, especially when the implication is that they're alright with rape.

Besides the cultural differences on the nature of consent during the moment (the joke about how you need written permission in advance to defend yourself afterwards from certain Northern European women comes to mind), that argument rests on the fundamental premise that there is, in fact, coercion going on.

IF Morinth mentally compels people against their will to agree to sex, it's rape. The basis of rape is coercion.

IF Morinth persuades people to agree, without external coercion, then it is not rape. Convincing people to change their mind, whether you're good at it or not, doesn't not change that they themselves came to point of agreement.

Morinth trying to persuade someone who she already has gotten implicit consent, but not coercing, is not rape.


The crux of it comes down to 'does Morinth use mindcontrol powers to make people agree'.

[quote]If you think real people don't and haven't been persuaded to promise
stupid things and do even worse for a woman on the verge of sex... well,
you've had a good run, but it does happen.[/quote]
What does not happen is a fully aware intergalactic hero going to his/her death with a smile without mind-control.
[/quote]

[ThePwener]

LOOK, bottomline is, you die. MURDER is WORST then RAPE. Seriously, no amount of discussion will magically turn Morinth into a Jackeline. Jack and Aria is a saint next to this cold hearted monster.

Modifié par ThePwener, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:25 .

[tobynator89]

Another reason that I like morinth is that she is one of the few people able to put the player down a peg. Wonder how many that went: I'm shepard, I can screw anyone and kill anyone.

[ThePwener]

tobynator89 wrote...

Another reason that I like morinth is that she is one of the few people able to put the player down a peg. Wonder how many that went: I'm shepard, I can screw anyone and kill anyone.

What? An Adept could have taken Morinth on easily. All it took was grabbing her arm and BOOM! dead.

[tobynator89]

ThePwener wrote...

tobynator89 wrote...

Another reason that I like morinth is that she is one of the few people able to put the player down a peg. Wonder how many that went: I'm shepard, I can screw anyone and kill anyone.

What? An Adept could have taken Morinth on easily. All it took was grabbing her arm and BOOM! dead.

I was referring to this www.youtube.com/watch

[ThePwener]

tobynator89 wrote...

I was referring to this www.youtube.com/watch

My Shepard could have survived.... but he killed her, so we'll never find out.

Modifié par ThePwener, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:33 .

[dreman9999]

demonic_cookie wrote...

And if you were specifically bringing up the stupid paragon option

I'm actually talking about the Renegade option, which is basically saying: "you keep saying we're alike, but you're nowhere near my league", which is pretty contemptuous.

And it is you who is missing the point, which is (that goes to you, Dean the Young, who thinks that flirting an accepting an invitation means concent): no matter if you think you're there to have sex, your partner still has a right to refuse. If you take away that right, you're raping that person, because the person's right to refuse sex has been taken away. It is the same as bringing someone home, then putting a knife to his/her throat and saying "we're having sex now". No matter if that person went in with the intention to have sex or not, you're still raping them because you're taking the choice away from them.

If you think real people don't and haven't been persuaded to promise
stupid things and do even worse for a woman on the verge of sex... well,
you've had a good run, but it does happen.

What does not happen is a fully aware intergalactic hero going to his/her death with a smile without mind-control.

I'm sorry...What? I full understand the consept of rape...But with Morinths case, I have to say your wrong. For one, she suduses her victems first. They want her.The point is by the time she controls their mind, they well want to have anyway. Look at Nef, Mornith could of had her day one, but she dragged it on, romance Nef, became a couple with her, then killed her with her disorder. And Nef was not the only one. Shep was just a cause that it was too much to hold back on. In the end the person romacing Morinth goes as far as they want with her. The only problem is the fact that she has something sexually wrong with her. The closes thing to Morinth case is someone who has a horrible std who sleeps around with no protection and even that is a big strech from Morinths case.

[demonic_cookie]

IF Morinth mentally compels people against their will to agree to sex, it's rape. The basis of rape is coercion.

IF Morinth persuades people to agree, without external coercion, then it is not rape.

I apologize for implying you were okay with rape. I was angry and went too far.

To the point, though. You state that Morinth didn't mind-control Shepard into sex. Okay, let's think about it then. John Shepard goes into Morinth's lair. He knows she kills with sex. He knows that before the mind meld asari's eyes turn black (he spent ME1 mindmelding with Liara and Shiala, he knows how it goes). They sit very close, and she is simply stunning, and he sees her eyes go black. He knows what's coming: sex that will kill him. She is very seductive, though. Does he agree?

You can argue about it, I suppose. My answer is: no. Even if she's super-seductive and super-persuasive, he wouldn't have sex with her because he knew he would die.So she must have mind-controlled him.

dreman, I explained it at legth in a post you quote. She takes away their choice. It is rape because the victim can't refuse even if s/he wanted to.

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:38 .

[dreman9999]

ThePwener wrote...

LOOK, bottomline is, you die. MURDER is WORST then RAPE. Seriously, no amount of discussion will magically turn Morinth into a Jackeline. Jack and Aria is a saint next to this cold hearted monster.

*Laughs histarically out loud*
I can't beleive I read this! You don't think they are worst thing in the world than death. When you die your pain goes with it. But to comparer it to something as horrible and grusome as rape, and then say it better. How about living your life after being rape. Being in fear about it. Not being able to tell anyone about it out of shame.(Likea lot of people do.) And being treated as the person who did the wrong thing when your where the victim. AND theirs worst things in life than that. On top of things it's how you die not if you die is horrifying.
You realy need some perspective.

[AquamanOS]

D.Kain wrote...
Again? Seriously? Go rewatch that scene until you spot that you are wrong. 

And what can actually make her run away if a suicide mission didn't?

Ok.....watching........ Shepard agrees that he'll probably survive and is willing to risk it, Morinth gives an unsettling and evil smile as if she's mentally saying "Bingo", certainly doesn't seem very worried. Morinth kills Shepard, looking very satisfied as she does it, which is basically suggesting that's exactly what she knew and wanted to happen.

How am I wrong again?

[dreman9999]

demonic_cookie wrote...

IF Morinth mentally compels people against their will to agree to sex, it's rape. The basis of rape is coercion.

IF Morinth persuades people to agree, without external coercion, then it is not rape.

I apologize for implying you were okay with rape. I was angry and went too far.

To the point, though. You state that Morinth didn't mind-control Shepard into sex. Okay, let's think about it then. John Shepard goes into Morinth's lair. He knows she kills with sex. He knows that before the mind meld asari's eyes turn black (he spent ME1 mindmelding with Liara and Shiala, he knows how it goes). They sit very close, and she is simply stunning, and he sees her eyes go black. He knows what's coming: sex that will kill him. She is very seductive, though. Does he agree?

You can argue about it, I suppose. My answer is: no. Even if she's super-seductive and super-persuasive, he wouldn't have sex with her because he knew he would die.So she must have mind-controlled him.

dreman, I explained it at legth in a post you quote. She takes away their choice. It is rape because the victim can't refuse even if s/he wanted to.

But by the time they get their they want it any way. A person can leave at any time up to that point. In Sheps case it was just as a lure. Shep new what was going on and stayed just to trap her. Everyone else, wanted to, begged, pleaded, even gave her gifts. Their is a consept of metally indused rape that includes drugs, manipulation,extortion, and desperation but this is part of the lead up to sex. Can it really beconsidered rape if at the last second, the door to say no is closed after the fact that they ok the act willingly and continue to ok well after the fact they ok sex?  To be rape, on must feel they are being raped.

[dreman9999]

Wait a sec...I just rewatched the Morinth sex scene......How on earth does she know Shep has the prothean cypher in his head?

[ThePwener]

It's standard for everyone aboard the Normandy to know EVERYTHING about Shepard.

Modifié par ThePwener, 15 juillet 2011 - 04:05 .

[tobynator89]

dreman9999 wrote...

Wait a sec...I just rewatched the Morinth sex scene......How on earth does she know Shep has the prothean cypher in his head?

Guessing she looked over the dossiers of the members in the squad. Shepards previous mission should be nicely described there.

or she got it through the near mind meld they had in her apartment.