[quote]Goneaviking wrote...
[quote]Xeranx wrote...
[quote]Goneaviking wrote...
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A woman suggests to a man that they go up to her room. She uses sexy undertones to get a particular message across. When they get up to her room she goes to the bathroom to freshen up. When she comes out she pulls out a gun and a badge and informs him that he's under arrest. Prior to that action it's obvious that the man and woman will have sex, correct? [/quote]
This would be a lie, would it not? Implying intention to deceive and manipulate?[/quote]
Yes, but when does your understanding of that come in? Before or after everything transpires?
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Another example: If someone holds a gun on you the implication is that you will be shot or can be shot. There's no obvious notion that you will be shot. Without context there's nothing to glean from what you're witnessing on a television show, in a book, or even if this were in-person.
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If a gun is being pointed at me, I assume they intend to shoot me. Context may change it, if for example it's a toy gun, or it's someone I trust making a very bad joke, but I would be an idiot to assume that someone pointing a real gun at me doesn't intend me harm, if not death.
As it is, Morinth straddling Shepherd attempted to force a mind meld on to Shepherd who didn't have the willpower to resist. Context is present in that scene.[/quote]
That's not the point of my example however. My point is that what can be assumed as obvious may not
be obvious. I probably would have been better off leaving this example out as the earlier better illustrates the difference between obvious and implied.
I brought up context, but I don't think I used it correctly. I'm unsure if there's a better word to use instead. Context is used to bring about the understanding of what's going on. You have to have the beginning with the end supporting that initial view. This is why I brought up the first example. The context of that scene isn't complete. What may be “obvious” to someone who witnesses a woman using a husky voice and the words, “let's go to my room” may very well not result in sex for the man. Without the end there's no way to know what was actually going on. If things stopped at the woman's front door you would still think sex was possible, but she could have been there to arrest the man. There could have also been other reasons for bringing him to her room other than sex or to make an arrest. The conclusion to the event is the only way you'll understand all that went on.
It's the same thing in the loft scene. We know that Shepard is up there to allow Samara to confront Morinth because we serve as bait. We, however, only suspect what Morinth's reasons for bringing Shepard to her apartment are. Within that scene Shepard uses a monotone voice to agree with Morinth using the neutral responses. After the first is when Morinth straddles Shepard, or more accurately, sits on Shepard's lap. This happens everytime before her eyes go black and still, using the neutral response, Morinth's reply is “Shh, darling. Just relax and hear my words.” That line doesn't bring to bear the notion of a meld coming. If she had said, “Embra...” and then Samara came in it would be a different story. That wasn't the case and with context of that scene destroyed there's no way to make a definitive statement as to what was going to happen.
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Short form: there's a difference between something being implied and something being obvious. What you're arguing is context. Without being fed all that information from Samara what would your idea of Morinth be?
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Samara isn't the only source of information about Morinth, you get information from the Eclipse, and from Aria which support Samara's claims. As does information gained from Nef's diary and mother.
There again you have the conversation gleaned from conversation with Morinth herself in dialogue, and while looking around her apartment, she consistently demonstrates an enjoyment of danger, and comments more than once that she likes to kill.[/quote]
Samara is the only source of information you get on Morinth: what she is and what she does. Wasea calls her a filthy creature. Aria is the only one that says anything about seduction and even then she's fine to leave her alone. I'm unsure as to what Nef's mother says about Morinth's character since she seems to never have met her and Nef's journal indicates infatuation which doesn't go against the point of seduction or illustrate anything dangerous about Morinth if we were to see this in absence of Samara's information. I'm sure everyone has, at some point in time, been in Nef's position of being infatuated with someone. If that someone is returning your advances that infatuation grows.
What Morinth says in reference to the sword and chess board is a statement of being contested by someone. Her statement in regards to the statute have her saying that she wasn't interested until the guy who was pursuing her made himself appealing to her. He pushed, got what he wanted, and died as a result. Ironically he wasn't seduced for it to happen.
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"You're an artist on the battlefield" is such a clumsy statement that it appears to be all about manipulating Shepard. My first run through the game, despite keeping Samara, had me cringe at that line. With or without context it's a bad line. My mentione of the "sounds like you too" line is to show how defensive she is. People are saying she's not capable of lying which someone does to cover their backside. Being defensive like that is interesting when you think about all the things she's supposed to embody by being a Justicar. She could have simply stated that she's nothing like Morinth, but instead she says, "sounds like you too". Shepard's comment was merely an observation rather than a pointed attack.
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Dodgy lines aside, it didn't seem defensive when she turned my observation back on me. If she'd gotten angry and refused comparison with Morinth it
would have seemed defensive.[/quote]
One doesn't need to express anger to be defensive. One simply needs to make a statement that looks defensive. Yes, a statement of “I'm nothing like her” would be defensive, but not more-so than “Sounds like you too”. Especially when it comes on the heels of an observation Shepard made. When you're trying to establish a difference between you and someone that can be stated to be similar to you coming back with a statement that would include the observer does not make you look good. At that point you are implying that the observer has no basis or right to say what they're saying because they are the same...more or less.
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Yes, revelling in combat is different from revelling in murder, but isn't it odd that Samara elects to join the order that would allow her to kill anyone deemed corrupt? The same order whose code is black and white with no room for gray, but she's regarded as being virtuous? Rather than request the Justicar Order take Morinth down or bring her in she makes it her personal mission to take Morinth out and is allowed the freedom to kill the corrupt as that's what the title of being a Justicar gives her. By the way I'm not saying Samara's evil, but there is room to state that she might not be on the up and up. Even a con man can be well learned. And, a con man will volunteer enough information to keep you hooked while still keeping vital information to themselves.
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What other group would give her the training and freedom to track Morinth? Even the rest of the Justicars aren't actively pursuing her in favour of their own missions despite the centuries long trail of bodies she's left behind her. It's not completely impossible that Samara's playing Shepherd, but as of this posting no one has actually provided any evidence that supports it as being likely. The closest anyone has come has been to say that the primary source of information is Samara, but that doesn't actually strengthen the argument.
It's also worth taking the time to note that the code doesn't eliminate gray, nor remove wiggle room to achieve a greater good. Nihilus escaped Samara by ensuring that killing him would kill innocents, when you witness Samara execute the Eclipse you also witness her offer to spare them if they give up the Ardat-Yakshi. These are gray acts.[/quote]
I'm quite sure if another Justicar had been tasked to bring Morinth in or take her out they would have done so. It's not the point that they're the only group that would give Samara the freedom to track Morinth. It's a beneficial side-effect. It's the fact that she took up the mission, herself, to track and kill Morinth,
and it allows her the freedom to kill any who appear to be corrupt. As she says, “If I have to kill a man, I don't need to know that he's a loving father” or something to that effect.
In regards to evidence to support that Samara may be playing Shepard, I have been bringing up the idea that Morinth can't be pinned as one thing or another. People have been making absolute statements that Morinth is evil through and through. I have expressed that those ideas cannot be supported given how malleable her character is and I think I've done well with that. At the same time I expressed that Samara may not be what everyone thinks she is and I believe that's referenced in your statement :“It's not completely impossible that Samara's playing Shepherd”. Some may have read what I said as an absolute statement about Samara's character, but there's no way I can make a statement of absolutes about Samara and tell people they can't do the same to Morinth. In short: It was never my intention to provide evidence that Samara is crooked because there's no way I can prove that. It was, however, my intention to show that she could be.
The code as expressed by Samara is black and white. Nihlus' use of an innocent so that he could get away is Nihlus using the code against her thereby
creating a grey area in which Samara will make a choice because that grey area can't exist as far as the code's concerned. This is the same for cops the world over (I think). Innocents come first if they're put in danger. Collateral damage is unacceptable because it would show that you are being reckless in the performance of your duties to apprehend a suspect. The only time innocents come second is if it is known, without a doubt, that saving one puts ten or more in danger. At that point it's an acceptable risk you're taking.
Samara's bargain with the Eclipse merc is not as grey as you think. It's actually very dark. The only option she gives the merc is give me what I want or die. Neither choice is good for the merc. If the merc had told Samara what she wanted to know and lived only to be killed by Morinth later it's a waste. More importantly, divulging the information Samara wants in no way guarantees that her life will be spared. Samara may kill her for practical reasons in case the merc decided to try and warn Morinth that Samara was coming. That might be more likely than anything else.
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The same moment Samara tells you about how she revelled in combat is also the same time she tells you she killed a whole village and left just the kids. After Morinth is dead she still offers up information to incriminate Morinth in the deaths of those villagers who died at her (Samara's) hands. This goes back to Samara joining the Justicar Order and all the freedom that entails. If Samara recognizes that those villagers are innocent why does she not show mercy? She said Morinth threw them at her implying that they had no will of their own, but still shows no mercy? And I can bring that back to the Eclipse mercenary who is unarmed and helpless when Samara approaches her, and summarily kills her. I can't reconcile all that with what is supposed to be the image of a morally steadfast individual against another individual who - for the most part - we've been poisoned against from the moment we met her pursuer. I'm sorry.
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The Eclipse soldier was armoured, and given that we had to kill a squad of armed Eclipse not two minutes before the cutscene it's entirely likely that she'd been armed at the outset of her encounter with Samara, but even if not then she certainly doesn't take the lifeline offered by Samara and refuses to give up the information. The execution was ruthless, brutal, even immoral according to my own code, I'd never argue it wasn't but it does nothing to establish a pattern of deceit.
As for the villagers, a tragedy yes, but they did attack Samara and Samara, like anyone else had the obligation to defend herself. Unlike the Eclipse Samara kills, and unlike the apartment scene, we aren't witnesses and we can only take it at it's barebones without reading too much into an anecdote a hundred years old.
I wouldn't present Samara as a representative of any desirable system of morality; she's ruthless and intolerant. I have not, and would not argue against that assessment and I wouldn't disagree with anyone who cited those (or many other traits) as reasons they disliked her. But I still haven't heard any credible arguments that support the "she's a liar" theory.
As for Morinth, having never recruited her I already know she loves art and music, she enjoys the high life and craves excitement. If she were fleshed out she could be a very interesting character, but even as I appreciate that potential, she still demonstrates a death fetish and she still tried to mind kill my character. That is the context I'm operating out of.
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Again, I never stated that Samara was deceitful. I had that impression that she could be playing me. I don't have to prove that she is manipulating me. I only have to show that she could. In regards to the villagers, as I said, she knew that they were innocent and that's
if Morinth
was mind-controlling them. We don't know how the conflict between the Eclipse Sisters and Samara started, but by Wasea's statement we know that they were housing Morinth. Samara's words could be deceitful in that events in the village didn't play out as she says. We never get a chance to question Morinth about anything she's done so we don't know her version and we don't have any history we can look on ourselves to fact check. So we don't know the story.
You know if I wanted to be a pain in the ass, I could say we don't know if Morinth really likes music and art, enjoys the high life and craves excitement. But then I'd be trolling.
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