395 réponses à ce sujet

[PrinceLionheart]

Fidget6 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Fidget6 wrote...

I actually already sympathize with Morinth. More than I sympathize with Samara in many ways. Anyone who sees the world as black and white as Samara does with her Justicar code is dangerous. And what were Morinth's options? To live in isolation or to run. I could see myself doing the same if put in a situation like that. 

Which would be all well and good if Morinth also chose a celebate life instead of frying the brains of unsuspecting innocents.

Of course Morinth isn't innocent either. She is a serial killer when it comes down to it. Like Samara, she also is too dangerous to be running around free. But she has a condition that causes her to become addicted to mating, which is the entire reason the choices for and Ardat Yakshi are isolation or execution in the first place. I didn't say that I thought Morinth was innocent and her actions deserved to be overlooked, I just said that I really sympathized for her as a character, which is more than I can say about Samara.

I don't think your suppose to sympathize with Samara's code, outside of the fact that it's tearing her up that she has to kill her daughter.

Though I find it a little ironic that a lot of Samara's detractors are so black and white about character. Samara isn't a serial killer, she kills criminals. There's absolutely nothing in the game that alludes to her snapping the spine of a jay walker or caving the face in someone who hasn't payed their parking ticket. She even points out when giving the option of saving an innocent her catching her perp, she saves the innocent. So no, she's nothing like Morinth and is no where close to being like her.

The only negative trait about her code is the instance that cops attempt to interfere or prevent her from completing her mission on Illium. But even then, she choose to go for a Third option when it was made available.

And really, I have no problem with people who sympathize with Morinth, it's just this "It was Samara who was the real problem" or "She just needs someone to help her" excuses that I find complete crap. Morinth can't change because it's an addiction that she's been feeding herself for 400 years. So believing you have the power to redeem her, or that by killing Samara, everything will turn out for the better for Morinth is stupid. Morinth will just return to brain raping everyone who interests her.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 07 juillet 2011 - 03:06 .

[Golden Owl]

Fidget6 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Fidget6 wrote...

I actually already sympathize with Morinth. More than I sympathize with Samara in many ways. Anyone who sees the world as black and white as Samara does with her Justicar code is dangerous. And what were Morinth's options? To live in isolation or to run. I could see myself doing the same if put in a situation like that. 

Which would be all well and good if Morinth also chose a celebate life instead of frying the brains of unsuspecting innocents.

Of course Morinth isn't innocent either. She is a serial killer when it comes down to it. Like Samara, she also is too dangerous to be running around free. But she has a condition that causes her to become addicted to mating, which is the entire reason the choices for and Ardat Yakshi are isolation or execution in the first place. I didn't say that I thought Morinth was innocent and her actions deserved to be overlooked, I just said that I really sympathized for her as a character, which is more than I can say about Samara.

I didn't mean to sound as if I was attacking you Fidget....my apologies if you felt that way...I was just counter pointing.

[Fidget6]

Golden Owl wrote...

Fidget6 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Fidget6 wrote...

I actually already sympathize with Morinth. More than I sympathize with Samara in many ways. Anyone who sees the world as black and white as Samara does with her Justicar code is dangerous. And what were Morinth's options? To live in isolation or to run. I could see myself doing the same if put in a situation like that. 

Which would be all well and good if Morinth also chose a celebate life instead of frying the brains of unsuspecting innocents.

Of course Morinth isn't innocent either. She is a serial killer when it comes down to it. Like Samara, she also is too dangerous to be running around free. But she has a condition that causes her to become addicted to mating, which is the entire reason the choices for and Ardat Yakshi are isolation or execution in the first place. I didn't say that I thought Morinth was innocent and her actions deserved to be overlooked, I just said that I really sympathized for her as a character, which is more than I can say about Samara.

I didn't mean to sound as if I was attacking you Fidget....my apologies if you felt that way...I was just counter pointing.

Nah, I didn't take it that way. 

[Golden Owl]

Fidget6 wrote...


Nah, I didn't take it that way. 

[Medhia Nox]

@PrinceLionheart - I've never met someone who preaches "Grey Morality" - that isn't black and white about a great deal of issues. THEIR money... THEIR family... THEIR political party, religion (rare), minority, hedonistic pastimes, etc. etc. etc.

Just like Morinth - "Grey Morality" is largely lazy and selfish. It's a way to justify any and every depraved action a person takes - just like Morinth does. I haven't yet found much to admire about it.

[PauseforEffect]

D.Kain wrote...

Tell me what can happen that I will actually regret if I won't kill her? Provided that I won't experiment and have sex with her.

What do you think will happen if Morinth's cover is blown and Shepard's teammates find out the truth? The truth that their commander betrayed and backstabbed one of them out of convenience? Shepard may have recruited criminals, assassins, rogue operatives and mercenaries but that's precisely why they'd have reason to be suspicious that their leader may shoot them in the back given their own history.
Given that Morinth thinks that joining Shepard's team is "going to be fun" means that she's got something more than survival on her mind. She finds this all amusing, and why not? She managed to convince Shepard to help her kill her own mother. It's the start of a manipulative game that can go many ways, all of them unpleasant for Shepard, the only person who knows the whole truth, who cannot tell friends without losing their trust about the psycho on the Normandy. Who's to say she only wants Shepard? She certaintly was attracted to Grunt and there is no guarantee that Morinth is only out for sex with Shepard. She can wait until the Normandy reaches a spaceport, turn around and tell the crew that Shepard betrayed Samara for a serial killer and run off into the city to continue killing while Shepard has to deal with teammates who are too shocked to go after her.
The fact that Shepard has to worry about Morinth maintaining a lie already places the commander in Morinth's control. The commander has more to lose in leadership and convincing the team to keep following him/her while Morinth just has to stay alive. If you think that Shepard's teammates won't care, think of Garrus as an example. He spent the better half of ME2 tracking down a fellow teammate just to execute him for selling out the team from cowardice. He hardly seems the type to forgive Shepard's decision in this.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bioware could stop being schizophrenic about what sort of character they want her to be, as well as drop the emotional appeal anvil they insist on throwing around. Letting her be an independent character, rather than Samara Mk. 2, would be a good start.


Deciding whether she's supposed to be amoral or a sociopath, would also be a good start. Yes, there is an important difference. Yes, she's currently off and on treated as both.

Addressing whether she actually has newly invented mind control abilities supported by nothing in the lore, or is just a good actor, would also have been good.

Certainly there are a lot of ways they could go with Morinth, whether to give her the sympathetic sponge bath treatment they gave to Jack, or not.

An element that few seem to get, for example, is that she isn't a rapist. She's a black widow seductress, but yet unlike, say, Samara she isn't out to enforce her views on others. There's a lot of 'personal freedom' there, as an extreme.

There's also the matter of mates, and whether she cares for them or not. If Shepard, by tech-upgrade (neural capacitors) COULD survive... what would that mean? It would be a far better justification as a catalyst for change than most of the people who Shepard changes.

And, of course, there's also what amorality for a social creature actually entails in overall practice, as opposed to cherry-picked emotional appeals. (And god, was the one young, pure, innocent, virginal white girl on an alien space station a horribly blatant one. No one would feel the same had Bioware used some seedy alien crime boss, or even just that male from Afterlife VIP.)

You don't have to make her anything approaching good to make her more interesting than she is now.

[Medhia Nox]

Excellent post Dean_the_Young.

[Dean_the_Young]

PrimalEden wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Tell me what can happen that I will actually regret if I won't kill her? Provided that I won't experiment and have sex with her.

What do you think will happen if Morinth's cover is blown and Shepard's teammates find out the truth? The truth that their commander betrayed and backstabbed one of them out of convenience? Shepard may have recruited criminals, assassins, rogue operatives and mercenaries but that's precisely why they'd have reason to be suspicious that their leader may shoot them in the back given their own history.
Given that Morinth thinks that joining Shepard's team is "going to be fun" means that she's got something more than survival on her mind. She finds this all amusing, and why not? She managed to convince Shepard to help her kill her own mother. It's the start of a manipulative game that can go many ways, all of them unpleasant for Shepard, the only person who knows the whole truth, who cannot tell friends without losing their trust about the psycho on the Normandy. Who's to say she only wants Shepard? She certaintly was attracted to Grunt and there is no guarantee that Morinth is only out for sex with Shepard. She can wait until the Normandy reaches a spaceport, turn around and tell the crew that Shepard betrayed Samara for a serial killer and run off into the city to continue killing while Shepard has to deal with teammates who are too shocked to go after her.
The fact that Shepard has to worry about Morinth maintaining a lie already places the commander in Morinth's control. The commander has more to lose in leadership and convincing the team to keep following him/her while Morinth just has to stay alive. If you think that Shepard's teammates won't care, think of Garrus as an example. He spent the better half of ME2 tracking down a fellow teammate just to execute him for selling out the team from cowardice. He hardly seems the type to forgive Shepard's decision in this.

This would be far more convincing were it not for the fact that the person Morinth is replacing would have been more or less honor bound to try and capture/kill nearly every single character on the ship had she not made a blind deal with Shepard. And yet, absolutely no one on the ship even raises a single concern at the prospect of a Justicar on board a ship packed with terrorists, war criminals, murderers, and thieves.

And, of course, that Garrus doesn't give a **** if Shepard kill-blocks his own personal revenge target. Or if Shepard is a bigoted racist who leaves the Council to die. Or if Shepard cures the genophage of the Turian historic enemy, or lets the Rachni go free, or any other choice of far greater impact in the game.


Let's not kid ourselves. The moral people on the ship who might care are already devoted to Shepard despite far worse things he can do. The rest of the team by and large doesn't have much cause to give a ****, if not be relieved on the basis that the replacement is NOT honor bound to try and kill them when the mission is over for past sins and injustices.

[Medhia Nox]

Dean_the_Young: I'm pretty sure Justicars are out to enforce Asari law amongst Asari. I'll have to go check.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Dean_the_Young: I'm pretty sure Justicars are out to enforce Asari law amongst Asari. I'll have to go check.

Samara mentions more than once that, after her mission, she may go to places like Omega or Tuchanka. Moreover, it's more or less clear from a number of conversations that Justicars don't exactly abide by racial limitations: they'll enforce their justice on anyone of any species, even if their traditional haunting grounds are Asari space.

It's the difference between enforcing justice amongst Asari because you are amongst Asari only, or BECAUSE they are Asari.

[Dean_the_Young]

PrinceLionheart wrote...
Morinth can't change because it's an addiction that she's been feeding herself for 400 years. So believing you have the power to redeem her, or that by killing Samara, everything will turn out for the better for Morinth is stupid. Morinth will just return to brain raping everyone who interests her.

Besides the matter of not really being rape (trickery, yes), if Morinth had a love interest who didn't die during the melding, the entire negative basis of the addiction would be changed, as well as the entire basis for her going after other people.

Morinth's addiction is a social problem not because it is addicting, but sating it kills someone, and then she needs to sate it again later. And, because as an Ardat Yakshi she's never been able to have a sustainable relationship by Asari mental/emotional standards, she is an underdeveloped person.

Anyone who can survive Morinth can (if not will) solve both negative aspects. No one will die, which is the big problem, but Morinth won't also be forced to go elsewhere for company (again, meaning fewer deaths) while also allowing her an opportunity to develope emotionally to a point where she may not desire killing someone, when (with a little technical investment) she can have an actual sustained relationship.


Morinth, by new conditioning provided by her own condition, can well develop from femme fatale amoral sex addict to simply amoral sex addict.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 juillet 2011 - 05:13 .

[Cyberstrike nTo]

D.Kain wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

If Morinth is going to be able to be recruited then the player should be able to get the full ensemble for that. Not just some passing cameo nor a news report, but actual direct effect upon Shepard.
"This is going to be fun." Last warning of Morinth's intent. She likes dangerous places and has been manipulating people for 400 years. Teammates will not be happy at the thought that their commander backstabbed one of them for a self-admitted murderer. "Like Nef, she died because her system couldn't handle the ecstasy."
A soldier may kill to save their own life. That does not mean they have carte blanche to kill civilians who posed no direct threat to them. There IS a difference in what people are killed and society will enforce that upon those who make no distinction

Its not an ordenery situation. The galaxy is in danger and strong alies are needed. I consider Morinth to have more potential than Samara in the long run, and since she is good to Shepard she is welcome on the team. Spepard is not police and its not his job to take care of Morinth as a killer, he has a lot of outlaws on his crew.

What is this "more potentional that Morinth has over Samara in the long run" I mean other the fact that she will Natal outlive Samara (who claims to be near 1,000 years old) and thus she  will be around to murder more people in the 600+ years long after Shepherd saves the galaxy from the Reapers because I see zero potentional for her. 

She is a serial killer. In our world he either put serial killers in prison for life or we execute them. Morinth is beyond redemption, she kills people and doesn't care about them. She doesn't care about Shepard, she ONLY cares for herself and will do anything to save her own neck and kill more people.      

[Dean_the_Young]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

What is this "more potentional that Morinth has over Samara in the long run" I mean other the fact that she will Natal outlive Samara (who claims to be near 1,000 years old) and thus she  will be around to murder more people in the 600+ years long after Shepherd saves the galaxy from the Reapers because I see zero potentional for her.

Besides that Morinth's biotic prowess, already equal to Samara's, still have substantial growth in the future?

Morinth's also a good actor (good for infiltration) and charismatic, far more so than Samara has shown herself to be.

She is a serial killer. In our world he either put serial killers in prison for life or we execute them. Morinth is beyond redemption, she kills people and doesn't care about them. She doesn't care about Shepard, she ONLY cares for herself and will do anything to save her own neck and kill more people.      

See, here's the thing though: besides this being exceptional circumstances and all (we'd put lethal force vigilantees like Samara in prison for life or execute them as well), amorality doesn't mean that you don't care about others: after all, someone who cares only about themselves by extension cares about how others treat them, and thus how they treat others. Nor have noble intentions ever been required for doing good things: case in point, pure Renegade Shepard.

[Medhia Nox]

@Cyberstrike: Uh oh, you said: "Beyond redemption." That's not popular with the "I want to do whatever I want and not be judged." crowd. Everyone's special and wonderful just the way they are - serial killer and social worker alike.

====

@Dean_the_Young: Don't you feel Shepard does this too (kills as his compass dictates)? When you're told to solve problems on behalf of the Alliance - you're following a "Code". I don't imagine any real world military is big on "Free Thinking".

====

Everyone has a "Code" they live by - and everyone's Code steps on someone elses toes.

For example - I don't appreciate Right Wing "God Hates ****s" activists - but this Code of the country I live in says they should have a right to spread hatred and coerce a small portion of the populace to commit hate crimes against a minority.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 juillet 2011 - 05:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...



@Dean_the_Young: Don't you feel Shepard does this too (kills as his compass dictates)? When you're told to solve problems on behalf of the Alliance - you're following a "Code". I don't imagine any real world military is big on "Free Thinking".

Then your imagination needs a little expansion, unless you definition of a real world military is the Soviet military. Besides the minor matter of the legitimacy difference between rules decided upon by a duly elected civilian government which believe in such matters as 'due process' and the self-elected, self-determined edicts of a non-government agency...


If you're asking if I'm cool with Shepard and the Spectres, I'm not. The Spectres are a morally abhorrent tool of political suppression created by an unelected elite bent on perpetuating their own power over a racial caste system, and the most laudable thing about Shepard's tenure as a Spectre is that it can be used to overthrow the system and replace it with a leader who curbs the practice. (All hail Udina!)


So... no. I don't approve of anyone with self-assigned or nearly limitless power in the fields of justice and punishment, Justicars or Spectres. But that's another topic.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_the_Young: Now, now - no need to be caustic. It was just a question.

You actually answered my question in your second paragraph - your first one is an assumption on your part about my meaning behind "free thinking".

[TMA LIVE]

I more of want her to change, for A) So she isn't just a consequence. Because if she is, then it'll just add more reason to never pick her, unless you're playing a Shepard that's a killer, or one that prefers a killer over Samara. Which is the current problem right now. Whereas if she has some good to her, then it would make people honestly think about the choice. Which I don't think is a stretch, since she even believes destroying the base is the right thing, and keeping it is wrong. I like people to change. I don't like it when a character just stays the same, and either becomes more good, or more bad. And C) Because her wanting redemption means she's going in a story direction. I like characters who want redemption. And I don't see much story or progress with a Morinth who just wants to continue to party and screw/kill all the time. More of the same doesn't add much story or development, period.

[ReallyRue]

I think she just needs more lines. And an individual role.

Although I dislike her personality, I think she's an interesting character, and the only reason she only survives on one of my playthroughs is because I like Samara so much.

[PMC65]

This is the loyalty mission that I absolutely love/hate because Morinth freaks me out. I already hate the whole "meld" thing ... someone moving around in my head is not sexy to me. Now add, "suck the life out" as well!

As I head into the Afterlife I am on pins & needles, then when she stops me I can feel my stomach tighten. Dear god do I really have to do this? I ask myself. Then we sit & talk and her voice is so sexy but all I keep thinking is Keep it together Shepard.

Once she says let's go back to her room I want to stop playing the freakin' game because she is a cross between a black widow & a cobra. Damn you Samara!!!! Do I really need your loyalty? I don't wanna do this!

And as we cut to the apartment I keep busy looking at her things ... I must stand in front of the chess game while pacing in my real livingroom gaining courage to go sit down and wait for that moment that she sits on my Shepard's lap ... Keep it together Shepard.

Even with the paragon or renegade option, I never pick those because if I can't feel safe, then neither can my Shepard ... nope, we are in it together!

I will never bring her on the Normandy ... The thought of her walking the cold floors, being so close while I (Shepard) sleep is not going to happen. Her death is my sigh of relief.

She is one of the moments in the game that I love because it draws me in ... I am not ashamed to say that the Ardat-Yakshi  is one of those creatures that struck a HOLY CRAP nerve in me, like the Mord'Sith who also struck that same nerve but with a SEXY HOLY CRAP.

If BW changed her then the LM would fall flat like a couple others (not mentioning which ones) but as it is, I both dread & love it ... like a good horror story. She may only be in my games for a short spell, but she really makes her mark in that time frame.

And I tip my hat to anyone who can actually let her live and roam the Normandy halls.

[D.Kain]

PrimalEden wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Tell me what can happen that I will actually regret if I won't kill her? Provided that I won't experiment and have sex with her.

What do you think will happen if Morinth's cover is blown and Shepard's teammates find out the truth? The truth that their commander betrayed and backstabbed one of them out of convenience? Shepard may have recruited criminals, assassins, rogue operatives and mercenaries but that's precisely why they'd have reason to be suspicious that their leader may shoot them in the back given their own history.
Given that Morinth thinks that joining Shepard's team is "going to be fun" means that she's got something more than survival on her mind. She finds this all amusing, and why not? She managed to convince Shepard to help her kill her own mother. It's the start of a manipulative game that can go many ways, all of them unpleasant for Shepard, the only person who knows the whole truth, who cannot tell friends without losing their trust about the psycho on the Normandy. Who's to say she only wants Shepard? She certaintly was attracted to Grunt and there is no guarantee that Morinth is only out for sex with Shepard. She can wait until the Normandy reaches a spaceport, turn around and tell the crew that Shepard betrayed Samara for a serial killer and run off into the city to continue killing while Shepard has to deal with teammates who are too shocked to go after her.
The fact that Shepard has to worry about Morinth maintaining a lie already places the commander in Morinth's control. The commander has more to lose in leadership and convincing the team to keep following him/her while Morinth just has to stay alive. If you think that Shepard's teammates won't care, think of Garrus as an example. He spent the better half of ME2 tracking down a fellow teammate just to execute him for selling out the team from cowardice. He hardly seems the type to forgive Shepard's decision in this.

Her cover is not a solid plot it is just lazyness/not enough resourse and time on behalf of Bioware. If I HAD the option I would NEVER tell her to go undercover, I don't care what the team says, and I don't think they would say much. I completed all of THEIR loyalty missions, not only that but I let them all complete their missions as THEY saw fit. I just didn' get along with Samara and that's just that. Responses to Morinth on the team would be something like: ''Dangerous choice Shepard, but act as you see fit''. Further more they would be PREAPERED for her ''charms'' and if somebody still falls victim to her then they deserve their fate for being weak. That's how I roll my crew, I'll get out of my way and take a lot of sh*t for strong individuals that I can benefit from, Morinth is also one of those individuals.

[D.Kain]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...


What is this "more potentional that Morinth has over Samara in the long run" I mean other the fact that she will Natal outlive Samara (who claims to be near 1,000 years old) and thus she  will be around to murder more people in the 600+ years long after Shepherd saves the galaxy from the Reapers because I see zero potentional for her. 

She is a serial killer. In our world he either put serial killers in prison for life or we execute them. Morinth is beyond redemption, she kills people and doesn't care about them. She doesn't care about Shepard, she ONLY cares for herself and will do anything to save her own neck and kill more people.      

I mean her biotics, I believe she can get stronger than Samara. She was already the same level when they met. Also she could be useful if used as an infiltrator to gain information. 

I'm not a cop, it's not my duty to punish serial killers. And if she didn't care for Shepard she wouldn't go on a suicide mission.

[tobynator89]

Like her as she is, would love to expand on her character.

[Seboist]

They should have gave the player a compelling reason to recruit Morinth in ME2 like her revealing dark secrets about her mother instead of the whole thing now where there's no reason to choose her except for the novelty of it. She had the potential to be one of the greatest characters in ME2 due to her being an amoral hedonistic sex murderer turned unlikely savior of humanity/the Galaxy but they just blew it by half-assing her implementation as a squadmate.

Modifié par Seboist, 07 juillet 2011 - 11:15 .