395 réponses à ce sujet

[danteliveson]

Make her own character and not act like Samara 24/7.

[D.Kain]

Seboist wrote...

They should have gave the player a compelling reason to recruit Morinth in ME2 like her revealing dark secrets about her mother instead of the whole thing now where there's no reason to choose her except for the novelty of it. She had the potential to be one of the greatest characters in ME2 due to her being an amoral hedonistic sex murderer turned unlikely savior of humanity/the Galaxy but they just blew it by half-assing her implementation as a squadmate.

She did become the savior of humanity. She was a part of that suicide mission. She was the one holding the biotic barrier in my playthrough. Regardless of her character.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_the_Young: Now, now - no need to be caustic. It was just a question.

I'm a caustic person by nature, when I'm not being charming. Nothing personal, if you felt offended. I developed in a negative-reinforcement environment, and it shows from time to time.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 juillet 2011 - 11:47 .

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I find Morinth fascinating, I tend to feel some sympathy for her but then I wonder if she's just manipulating me. I wonder if she ever feels guilty or lonely or if she really doesn't care. We really don't know enough about Morinth, I hope we find out more in ME3.

[jessimaster]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

RPGamer13 wrote...

She doesn't need improvement in her personality.

If shr needs improvement on: it's to make it so she doesn't sag so much. I tinally realised my problem with the female charafter models in mass Effect: their chest is down to their stomachs. 2 inches up would be a huge improvement.

And they need to make it this time where if you're Renegade score is high enough, she won't be able to kill Shepard. It sounds like they hint to that possibility when Morinth said that, Shepard might be the one strong enough to survive, but that it wasn't the right time.

Do people actually think she means this?  She wants to fry your brain and eat your soul.  She's trying to make Shepard feel special, to warm up to her so she can get her next fix.

You are not the only person who is not under the influnce of Morinths powers.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.pngI agree that she is just trying to trick Shepard, the way she tells Shepard to embrace eternity is so sadistic and creepy that it seem pretty obivous she just wants to meld with you, though I do feel a little sorry for her. She was born with powers that make her dangerous to anyone who gets close to her, but she it is hard to ignore how proud of it she is.  She shouts about being the genetic desitiny of the asari and she decides not to live in safety with her other Ardat-Yakshi sisters. She is pretty much asking to be hunted. 

Modifié par jessimaster, 08 juillet 2011 - 01:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't think 'comfortably buried alive with supplies' can really be called 'safety' by any standard.

Sadist refers to a particular trait that Morinth doesn't really demonstrate. The scene is creepy... but then Bioware went to all the shading effects to drive in what a Bad Choice it was.

[jessimaster]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't think 'comfortably buried alive with supplies' can really be called 'safety' by any standard.

Sadist refers to a particular trait that Morinth doesn't really demonstrate. The scene is creepy... but then Bioware went to all the shading effects to drive in what a Bad Choice it was.

No, it is not realy apealing to be locked up because you were born with a genetic defect. I can understand her decision, but she still did very shady things while she was free, like convincing an entire village to worship her and sacrifice their
daughters.

A sadist is someone who derives sexual pleasure through the pain of another, I think someone who gets a high of of hunting and accidentally killing them fits that term, but that is just what I think.

Yeah, the fact that it was a Bad Choice, was the point I was trying to make.

[Killigula]

Make her a fully realized character rather than just Samara with a few different ship only lines and a bonus power that's actually worse.

So

-Unique voice acting all the time.

-Unique dialog options and a dialog tree that lasts longer than two missions

-Unique power set, not just one difference

-Possibly make her the only true renegade romance option in the game. IE let a 100% renegade bar Shepard not die from romancing her and get the achievement instead. As it is now all of the romances are basically paragon in nature so having at least one that amounted to two legitimately nasty people hooking up without the touchy feely good guy undertones present in the other romances would certainly give her a unique role. The romance should not be about the player "turning her good" in other words, but rather about a hardcore renegade Shepard romancing her because she's the only one that will understand and not be repulsed or frightened away by what he's become.

[D.Kain]

@Killigula

Approve.

[shepskisaac]

100% what Killigula said

[silentassassin264]

Let my Layla Shepard who is just a hedonistic biotic gangster who joined to the alliance simply to be able to kill people and get away with it romance her without fear of brain hemorhages. With her biotics, will, and sheer evil, she should be able to withstand Morinth's frying effect and the can be hedonist serial killers happily ever after. After all, she never really got to get a LI because I couldn't see someone that evil getting with any of the previously available ones.

Also, let Morinth be Morinth instead of the Samara clone thing. I am freaking Commander Shepard. If I killed a squadmate and replaced them, the others would follow my command or be crushed under my heel. I don't need to hide my decisions from them.

[Killigula]

Yeah that romance thing has been a peeve of mine. The game heavily encourages you to choose a character and romance them and then carry that through multiple games, but all the romances are basically paragon slanted in nature, even though the game also claims you can play it how you want morally. This is mainly because all the romancable characters are basically paragon slanted in nature themselves, with those that don't appear to be so being actually pushed more in that direction simply by the act of the player romancing them. Even if the player is renegade.

Take a character like Jack for example. You can't "keep her bad" to act as the counterpart to your fully Renegade Shepard. You can't be boyfriend and girlfriend and agree to go happily around the galaxy killing all the people that wronged her like she wanted to do post suicide mission, even if you're the sort of guy that's already killed the galactic government for giving him too much sass mouth. Nope, you can be 100% renegade and 0% paragon and you still get that same touchy feely crying scene with her at the end. That or you can choose the quickie option, lose the achievement, and lose all further dialog possibilities with the character wholesale. In other words no choice at all. You go paragon or the game punishes you.

This could have been the perfect role for Morinth then. Sure they want Jack to be the convict with a "scared little girl" inside and Thane to be the spiritual assassin with sob stories about his dead wife, but then you've got to leave some kind of legit renegade option for renegade players in a game that so heavily encourages you to romance someone, and that contains morality checks that can only be passed by commiting to either renegade or paragon heavily. Morinth even has the added bonus that as an Asari she works for both genders so it'll even be half the work it could otherwise have been.

As far as her vs Samara to I'm of the opinion that her needing to hide her identity was unnecessary (leaving aside that it was most likely just to save on game resources). Samara is a Justicar and none of the other crew know anything about them. It would have been trivially easy for shepard to just make up something along the lines of "I somehow broke one of her million and one rules and she attacked me despite her supposed oath. If it wasn't for Morinth here, she probably would have killed me to. Turns out the woman was pretty much nuts and chasing her own daughter around the galaxy aiming to murder her for little more than escaping from what amounts to lifetime imprisonment for being born wrong." You know just have Shepard just lie about the exact particulars of what happened and whitewash the remaining truth a bit in Morinth's favor and who's going to know any better or question it with everything else that's going on?

Then Morinth could say shes aware of her condition and doesn't meld anymore, but that that's not enough for the Asari and that the only options they'll allow her to choose between are imprisonment for life or death.

She's supposed to be masterful at this sort of thing and this isn't even a hard sell at all, with how close it is to the truth. 

Finally Shep and her just work out some kind of deal where she stays away from the crew but other than that he doesn't care what she does in her "off hours" when they dock somewhere, so long as she doesn't get caught, at which point he'll deny ever knowing her and leave her to her fate. They both know how unlikely she ever is to get caught though, being that the one person who actually understood her well enough  to attempt it in 400 years is now dead.

From there a full renegade Shep should be able to begin romancing her, and if he has enough renegade points, he doesn't die and gets the achievment on completion as with all the others. If he doesn't have enough renegade though, or attempts to get frisky too early, he dies just like it is now. Ideally I'd actually like to put in a couple different points where she'd try to convince you to conssumate the romance with her. Then if you jump the gun to early, and/or before you have enough points, you die.

It definitely shouldn't be "easy" to do. She should be the hardest romance to complete succesfully in the entire game. That added challenge and complexity would help to balance out the fact that it's like 6-1 paragon vs renegade romances though.

[silentassassin264]

Killigula, you raised one of my main concerns with the game anyway.  The entire game is slanted for Paragons, not just the romances.  Renegade seemed to be a "press  for something flashy or funny that results in taking away content in the game" button or "lose" button.  For example, Samara herself is a consummate renegade.  She believes in following her code to a T and killing all those who oppose her or are criminal scum.  If you attempted to woo her and are renegade she mentions that she would kill you if it were under different circumstances.  That makes no sense at all.  While renegade does have some douchey for the sake of being douchey options, the main philosophy of renegade is not necessary evil (like my Layla Shepard) but instead just icy practicality with the mission first...just like Samara.  This extends to the rest of the game.  You cannot pure renegade and romance Jack who is arguably the most renegade LI available.  I had a renegade Male shep that I decided to romance Jack with found out much later that that earlier decision cuts of the romance.  I started a save several hours back doing it all over again only to find out that despite Jack seeming perfect for my barely above pirate male shep, you have to change her to more paragon to romance her and be paragon yourself.  You don't get any renegade romance. 

When I saved Morinth instead of Samara this came up again.  You can get a kind of a soft romance with Samara if you are Paragon but you can't get anything with Morinth for being renegade.  If you keep in mind that you don't even get many conversations (as well a length of conversations) with Morinth as compared to saving Samara instead, just for a non standard game over, it makes you feel very cheated for choosing the renegade option.  You don't even get a "celibate" relationship with Morinth.  You get a (most likely) renegade Shepard being worried about getting found out conversation and death. 

If you keep in mind that Liara was a cute naive scientist that while gets kind of colder when being exposed to the real world but she remains solidly on a paragon slant.  Then there is Kaiden who is your optimistic rainbows shoot out of my pores companion.  Then Ash who while wary of aliens, is not renegade enough to say...save the galaxy if it just means putting up with a terrorist organization...so not very renegade at all.  And since I am getting tired of typing I will sum up ME2 LIs with Thane supposing to be a "bad" boy and is practically a monk.  The only renegade romances possible would be Jack (which they ruined horribly) and Morinth which is like a gigantic middle finger to you playing renegade. 

GIVE ME MORINTH GOSH DARNIT AND DON'T MAKE ME HAVE TO "FIX" HER.

[Dean_the_Young]

I like that, though I'd be wary of a strictly 'point' requirement, especially since that,while recruiting Morinth is a Renegade act, the ability to do so is both Paragon AND Renegade.

While I like the subversion of 'fixing' her ('moderating' her with, you know, someone who won't die and leaving it at that), and a 'you must wait this long to survive regardless', I'd suggest more of a 'Wrex on Virmire' approach: you can survive with a persuasion check, or if you get MacGuffin X, say a Neural Capacitor upgrade that costs more than the medbay and does just about nothing else. The last thing we need in the game is an even greater emphasis on important paragon/renegade points, given how the system works. But still, such a dual-system would favor the Renegades slightly in terms of persuasion in that they'd have one less Big Decision to be compensate for than the Paragons.

[Killigula]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I like that, though I'd be wary of a strictly 'point' requirement, especially since that,while recruiting Morinth is a Renegade act, the ability to do so is both Paragon AND Renegade.

While I like the subversion of 'fixing' her ('moderating' her with, you know, someone who won't die and leaving it at that), and a 'you must wait this long to survive regardless', I'd suggest more of a 'Wrex on Virmire' approach: you can survive with a persuasion check, or if you get MacGuffin X, say a Neural Capacitor upgrade that costs more than the medbay and does just about nothing else. The last thing we need in the game is an even greater emphasis on important paragon/renegade points, given how the system works. But still, such a dual-system would favor the Renegades slightly in terms of persuasion in that they'd have one less Big Decision to be compensate for than the Paragons.

The idea of making it a renegade check would be mainly to keep it as renegade exclusive content in a game fairly biased toward paragons. Having a med bay type cheat around it kind of defeats the purpose of that. Having some means to do it by cleverly navigating the dialog trees a certain way could work though. So something similar to what you have to do to get her back to her quarters in the loyalty mission, but a lot less shallow and over a longer period of time. 

That's really something you should have had to do with every romance though. That is make them actually interested in your Shepard based on his character traits as opposed to just finishing out all of their dialog tree and then picking Y/N at the end. 

[FlyinElk212]

To be honest, the "Morinth posing as Samara" deal is a big factor as to what makes her character so incredibly interesting. If she revealed herself as the killer she is, it ruins the suspense of anyone discovering her true identity. Plus, at that point, it just becomes stupid for Shepard to continue to support Morinth openly.

If anything, I say, continue the posing-as-Samara thread, but have Morinth more prone to slipping up. Have maybe 1 or 2 other crewmembers discover that she's actually not Samara, with Shepard having to convince his crew to trust in his decision and not reveal the secret.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 08 juillet 2011 - 05:24 .

[Daradain]

Isn't a romance with Morinth like a romance with a vampire?

...

Great. We have Twilight in Mass Effect.

[billywaffles]

I think that Shepard would be a complete idiot if released morinth free in me3 and I hope you will have to keep an eye on morinth to control her and maybe cure her addiction (paragon) or encourage her more to continue with her killings to be more powerful (evil-renegade).

[D.Kain]

billywaffles wrote...

I think that Shepard would be a complete idiot if released morinth free in me3 and I hope you will have to keep an eye on morinth to control her and maybe cure her addiction (paragon) or encourage her more to continue with her killings to be more powerful (evil-renegade).

Shepard would be an idiot if he let one of his crew mates mind their own business? I wouldn't want to be on your crew. 

[Hurbster]

D.Kain wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Tell me what can happen that I will actually regret if I won't kill her? Provided that I won't experiment and have sex with her.

What do you think will happen if Morinth's cover is blown and Shepard's teammates find out the truth? The truth that their commander betrayed and backstabbed one of them out of convenience? Shepard may have recruited criminals, assassins, rogue operatives and mercenaries but that's precisely why they'd have reason to be suspicious that their leader may shoot them in the back given their own history.
Given that Morinth thinks that joining Shepard's team is "going to be fun" means that she's got something more than survival on her mind. She finds this all amusing, and why not? She managed to convince Shepard to help her kill her own mother. It's the start of a manipulative game that can go many ways, all of them unpleasant for Shepard, the only person who knows the whole truth, who cannot tell friends without losing their trust about the psycho on the Normandy. Who's to say she only wants Shepard? She certaintly was attracted to Grunt and there is no guarantee that Morinth is only out for sex with Shepard. She can wait until the Normandy reaches a spaceport, turn around and tell the crew that Shepard betrayed Samara for a serial killer and run off into the city to continue killing while Shepard has to deal with teammates who are too shocked to go after her.
The fact that Shepard has to worry about Morinth maintaining a lie already places the commander in Morinth's control. The commander has more to lose in leadership and convincing the team to keep following him/her while Morinth just has to stay alive. If you think that Shepard's teammates won't care, think of Garrus as an example. He spent the better half of ME2 tracking down a fellow teammate just to execute him for selling out the team from cowardice. He hardly seems the type to forgive Shepard's decision in this.

Her cover is not a solid plot it is just lazyness/not enough resourse and time on behalf of Bioware. If I HAD the option I would NEVER tell her to go undercover, I don't care what the team says, and I don't think they would say much. I completed all of THEIR loyalty missions, not only that but I let them all complete their missions as THEY saw fit. I just didn' get along with Samara and that's just that. Responses to Morinth on the team would be something like: ''Dangerous choice Shepard, but act as you see fit''. Further more they would be PREAPERED for her ''charms'' and if somebody still falls victim to her then they deserve their fate for being weak. That's how I roll my crew, I'll get out of my way and take a lot of sh*t for strong individuals that I can benefit from, Morinth is also one of those individuals.

Only problem with doing that is Bioware have a habit of having party members attack each other and leave the party if they disagree with each other enough. I can certainly see someone like Garrus leave under those circumstances, no matter what the loyalty mission says.

[D.Kain]

Hurbster wrote...

Only problem with doing that is Bioware have a habit of having party members attack each other and leave the party if they disagree with each other enough. I can certainly see someone like Garrus leave under those circumstances, no matter what the loyalty mission says.

Garrus? We had a lot of interesting conversations and came to know each other very well. I supported his views on how the c-sec should do things. We stopped Sovreign together and saved the citadel. I saved his life when merceneries wanted to kill him. I helped him to get his revenge on the person that did him wrong, so he could sleep well at night. And finally we are on a VERY important mission on stopping reapers from harvesting everybody. 
And you want to tell me that this guy is going to leave Shepard and abandon the mission JUST because Shepard reqruited a person that he doesn't like? Imo Garrus would want to try to get along with the friend of his friend and try to search for something good in Morinth, since his trusted friend approves her.

[PauseforEffect]

To add, Garrus was always an individual that despite Shepard's influence, will still go off to do what he feels is right (like go vigilante on Omega instead of sticking it out for the Spectres). Mordin will chew the Commander out if Shepard is too self-righteous about the genophage being utterly wrong. Jack will insult and dismiss your character if you tick her off. And Jacob will dump a female Shepard if she's too obnoxious.
It may not seem like much, but Shepard's teammates are given enough individuality to oppose Shepard on certain things and I'm fairly certain some of them would not be happy to find out that their leader deliberately recruited a serial killer without their knowledge. Samara was recruited openly in front of teammates with full awareness of the potential danger she presented. They were also witness to a police officer, whose life was threatened not so long ago, take a Justicar's vouch as legit to evidence that otherwise was inadmissable. If nothing else, a Justicar that is feared and respected in Asari society is also effective in reducing pirate attacks and other hostile action by criminal organizations. Samara's character was the one intended to have conflict and complexity. She's compelled to punish the wicked, yet she was willing to let a merc that held a gun at her walk away. She threatened to forcibly break out of detainment by police, yet broke a deal with Shepard to avoid harming officers. She killed Morinth, her daughter, for all the murders she committed, yet she was so proud that her child defied a fate defined for her.
The neural capacitors are an interesting solution, Dean, yet if it were truly likely to accomplish, Samara would never have needed to become a Justicar and her daughters could indeed become rehabilitated. But Shepard is in a situation where he/she cannot worry about a species' longtime problem. Shepard needs to worry about the inevitable war and who to have at your back. The signs Bioware gives throughout the game about Morinth are too obvious to not be paranoid about despite how lopsided the moral issue is. Add to that the player's own viewpoint of the game's outcomes with each character, it's painfully hard to side with a character that does kill Shepard versus a Justicar that surprisingly gives a sporting chance to a renegade. Yes, it's an outside viewpoint and since Shepard isn't supposed to be able to break the fourth wall, it's up the player, the deus ex machina factor to decide the best outcome.
I will concede that Morinth was written rather flatly in personality. For those who recruited her, I don't think it's much to ask to have her dialogue be a bit more intelligent than an angsty teenager's. Killigula and silentassassin264 have a point about romances being too reliant on paragon dialogue and it would be preferable to have a renegade character not have to break personality to have a relationship. But I do not believe it's plausible to survive an Ardat-Yakshi without breaking established lore.
Apologies for taking so long to respond.