44 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinny2009]

Did anyone save the Collector Base?

If so, what did the team members say on the ship, after the whole thing is over?
Did they disagree with saving the base?

I destroyed the base and everyone agreed it was a good choice.

[Sebby]

I saved the base and everyone including those who favored keeping it scolded my shep for being an idiot.

[Rinny2009]

haha, thanks for the replies!

[Asari Commando]

lol interesting that the normandy crew all agrees destroying the base is the right choice. i would have saved the base if "cerberus" wasnt running the show, and all the intel went to their hands. i hadnt trusted them since admiral kohoku and still didnt thru-out ME2.

[Commander_Adept]

I almost always save the base. It just seems logical to me. I know that Cerberus is "bad" in Mass 3, but I don't know... It could surprise us.

[KevShep]

Commander_Adept wrote...

I almost always save the base. It just seems logical to me. I know that Cerberus is "bad" in Mass 3, but I don't know... It could surprise us.

Just because it seems logical does not mean that it actually is logical. The fact that cerberus is a shady group with unknown motives is enough to warrant caution when deciding to keep or destroy the base. There for you have to then go off of what you KNOW is logical, you know your own motives so you konw that at least destroying the base you will end the game on your terms. If you keep the base then you could be ending the game on the reapers terms and not even know it(ME2 maybe nothing more then a big ruse against the reapers enemys).

[Raven4030]

When deciding whether to destroy or keep the base neither option is more 'logical' than the other. It's a moral, ethical choice as there are good reasons to keep it around and good reasons to destroy it.

Saving the base nets you the reward of all that reaper tech, but your risks are Cerberus using it to dominate other reapers not to mention the risk of indoctrination. Destroying the base nets you the reward of keeping all that tech out of hands that are unfit to wield it at the risk of finding out you actually need it in the future. Again, not a question of logic but a question of ethics... or if you want a question of "Which choice means my squad mates tell me what a good boy I've been instead of smacking me for being a bad dog."

EDIT: Oh, and 'logic' is based on how you get from premise to conclusion or, in this case, 'dilemma to action'. Just because things turn out poorly does not mean your logic was unsound, it just means there is evidence you failed to consider.

Modifié par Raven4030, 06 juillet 2011 - 09:04 .

[KevShep]

A persons ethics are defined by there logic, though many people have different views about what is ethical or logical. Mass Effect has always been about ethics based in the players logic. Keeping or destroying the base does make you think weather or not this is logical, ether from an ethical only point of view or logical point of view or both. At the end there will be a more logical choices for some decisions then others as said by Casey Hudson when talking about mass effect 3's many ending and how to get them.

[TridentWhisper]

Keep it. I always assumed that even if Cerberus gets first pickings of the base, I would be able to take it back from them in ME3. Also at the end of Retribution, Anderson and Sanders said they were going to research Graysons remains. So the Alliance is already studying Reaper tech.

Their is of course the whole indoctrination thing, but the process is usually slow. So I'm gambling that they find a way to stop it before it's to late.

[Gallimatia]

What is logical is logical. It is not a matter of opinion. An action can't be logical or illogical in and of itself. Any action is the logical conclusion of some sets of values and opinions and the illogical conclusion of others.

If for instance Samara's code tells he it is forbidden to use knowledge obtained through experiments on sentient beings and she belives in that code then it is logical for her to favour destroying the base. That does not mean destroying the base is logical per se. Given a different set of values to work with it would be illogical.

[KevShep]

What is logical is logical I agree though there are many ways to reach that end and sometimes it can be through ethics. What I was sayin is that some people take a ethical approach to a decision based in logic...we know that this is not always the best out come because some people put there ethics before logic (even if there logic is not sound) and thats why you get people like religious suicide bombers as just an example.Mass Effect makes you approach a decision in any way you want weather its logical/ethical or both.

Modifié par KevShep, 06 juillet 2011 - 10:11 .

[Raven4030]

Logic is the way people connect a series of premises to form a conclusion, either through inductive reasoning or deductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning going along the lines of:

If P then Q
P
Therefore
Q

In short, as long as you accept the premises as true, then you must also accept the conclusion as true. You are only being illogical if the premises (when accepted as true) do not necessarily lead to the conclusion. Now, one's ethics or additional evidence might cause them to reject a premise as true or false, this does not make the argument illogical though.

If logic were not universal and essentially static, then the fields of math and science would not exist.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I always save the base... still don't quite understand why this move is so different from why we teamed up with Cerberus in the first place...

[Bourne Endeavor]

The choice is a false dichotomy because we are forced to give it to Cerberus or destroy it, in lieu of simply turning the Base over to the Alliance. Frankly, destroying it I find completely illogical by virtue of the decision amounting to blind idealism. We have nothing to combatant the Reapers and when finally having access to something that may provide beneficial we scream foul? Cerberus may be ambiguous however this is being petty. We have no alternatives, and Shepard's dialogue is just... ridiculous. You are essentially gambling on a deus en machina showing up out of the blue. This is not to insinuate the Base has all the answers or even any but you are better to know for certain than risk everything on luck.

"A slim chance is better than nothing" - Slightly modified quote from the game itself.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 07 juillet 2011 - 06:12 .

[Sebby]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The choice is a false dichotomy because we are forced to give it to Cerberus or destroy it, in lieu of simply turning the Base over to the Alliance. Frankly, destroying it I find completely illogical by virtue of the decision amounting to blind idealism. We have nothing to combatant the Reapers and when finally having access to something that may provide beneficial we scream foul? Cerberus may be ambiguous however this is being petty. We have no alternatives, and Shepard's dialogue is just... ridiculous. You are essentially gambling on a deus en machina showing up out of the blue. This is not to insinuate the Base has all the answers or even any but you are better to know for certain than risk everything on luck.

"A slim chance is better than nothing" - Slightly modified quote from the game itself.

The Alliance would have to go through the Terminus Systems in order to go through the Omega 4 Relay and that's politically problematic. It's better for an outlawed black ops group that few know much about to handle it than risk political blowback from slavers,mercs,etc attacking human colonies in response to the Alliance trespassing on their turf.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I took Mordin and Jack with me to the final part of the mission. Mordin said "Collector experiments vile. Horrific. But, should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity." I saved the base and afterward I walked up to him on the Normandy thinking "Hey Mordin. How awesome was I back there?" and he said "Cerberus better than Collectors. Still, wouldn't turn base over to them."

[Mr. Gogeta34]

//Hears what Mordin said before and after:

[Bourne Endeavor]

Seboist wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The choice is a false dichotomy because we are forced to give it to Cerberus or destroy it, in lieu of simply turning the Base over to the Alliance. Frankly, destroying it I find completely illogical by virtue of the decision amounting to blind idealism. We have nothing to combatant the Reapers and when finally having access to something that may provide beneficial we scream foul? Cerberus may be ambiguous however this is being petty. We have no alternatives, and Shepard's dialogue is just... ridiculous. You are essentially gambling on a deus en machina showing up out of the blue. This is not to insinuate the Base has all the answers or even any but you are better to know for certain than risk everything on luck.

"A slim chance is better than nothing" - Slightly modified quote from the game itself.

The Alliance would have to go through the Terminus Systems in order to go through the Omega 4 Relay and that's politically problematic. It's better for an outlawed black ops group that few know much about to handle it than risk political blowback from slavers,mercs,etc attacking human colonies in response to the Alliance trespassing on their turf.

You misunderstood mate. I was saying that should have been the paragon option, and destroying the base never be made an option for the reasons described above. If they refused then even a paragon Shepard can rationalize the Alliance is so far beyond incompetency it is a wonder they can pilot.

[Sebby]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

//Hears what Mordin said before and after:

The before and after dialogue makes Mordin look like a bipolar moron. He knowingly and eagerly joined a Cerberus operation(even defended TIM's plan with the Collector ship) and then gets bent out of shape over the base coming under their control? Who else did he think was going to get it?

[Smeelia]

Seboist wrote...

The before and after dialogue makes Mordin look like a bipolar moron. He knowingly and eagerly joined a Cerberus operation(even defended TIM's plan with the Collector ship) and then gets bent out of shape over the base coming under their control? Who else did he think was going to get it?

I think his response makes sense, he's always been wary of Cerberus and they haven't really demonstrated that he shouldn't be wary (they're trying to save the galaxy but since they're in the galaxy it's hard to prove that it's out of the goodness of their hearts).  The others that support keeping the base have similar views, it's not keeping the base that's the problem it's the fact that Cerberus is getting it (which you have no choice in, so it's odd the way it's presented in their dialogue).

The lack of choice as to who gets the base is odd (I wonder if that choice was intended to be in the game then later removed in order to make future outcomes easier to deal with, this is possibly the reason for the seemingly unusual dialogue), the Normandy should be the only ship that can get through the Omega 4 relay until the IFF is replicated (or an alternative is found) so Shepard should be able to decide who gets the information.  Ultimately, it's one of those things you just have to accept for storyline purposes (it's just a shame the dialogue wasn't better written for clarity).

[Dean_the_Young]

The IFF is already replicated by Cerberus, as shown in a 'Shepard dies, base saved' ending.

Though I agree that it should have been addressed better, there's a pretty basic reason for why the choice is 'Cerberus or no one': Cerberus is already ready to seize the initiative, and may as well have looted the place (or reset the defenses) by the time Shepard not only alerts the Alliance and convinces them them that there's not only a treasure trove, but that it's worth intervening right at the heart of the Terminus.

If TIM and Cerberus haven't re-instated and boosted the defenses by that point, they may well have carted away most everything of value for study elsewhere. Enough defense to block casual Council investigation, while the politics of the Terminus blocks a larger Council force.

[Smeelia]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The IFF is already replicated by Cerberus, as shown in a 'Shepard dies, base saved' ending.

That's one part that is a little confusing, it could just be a matter of seeming faster than it really is (for cinematic reasons) or it could be that they've been able to replicate it based on information received from EDI, the listening devices, Miranda's reports or wherever else.  I suppose you could also say that the "Shepard dies" endings are non-canon (in so far as there is canon) so anything there might not really count.

It's true that Cerberus are in the best position to take control of the base but there are a lot of little details that are basically just ignored, presumably for the purposes of storyline.   I wouldn't take it as a given that Cerberus have already replicated the IFF but for whatever reason it seems to be accepted in the story that they will end up getting the base if it's intact.  Cerberus being able to replicate the IFF and move in quickly is a decent enough excuse, even if it's not expressly stated.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Smeelia wrote...
I think his response makes sense, he's always been wary of Cerberus and they haven't really demonstrated that he shouldn't be wary (they're trying to save the galaxy but since they're in the galaxy it's hard to prove that it's out of the goodness of their hearts).  The others that support keeping the base have similar views, it's not keeping the base that's the problem it's the fact that Cerberus is getting it (which you have no choice in, so it's odd the way it's presented in their dialogue).

The lack of choice as to who gets the base is odd (I wonder if that choice was intended to be in the game then later removed in order to make future outcomes easier to deal with, this is possibly the reason for the seemingly unusual dialogue), the Normandy should be the only ship that can get through the Omega 4 relay until the IFF is replicated (or an alternative is found) so Shepard should be able to decide who gets the information.  Ultimately, it's one of those things you just have to accept for storyline purposes (it's just a shame the dialogue wasn't better written for clarity).

The point there is that Mordin knew where it was going when he said it's best to keep it.  He did a complete 180 on his previous stance. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Seboist wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

//Hears what Mordin said before and after:

The before and after dialogue makes Mordin look like a bipolar moron. He knowingly and eagerly joined a Cerberus operation(even defended TIM's plan with the Collector ship) and then gets bent out of shape over the base coming under their control? Who else did he think was going to get it?

Exactly