41 réponses à ce sujet

[ubermensch007]

I'm not sure if this should be a thread or a Blog-Post but: What I realized a day or two ago after playing through ME 2 five or more times already.Is this: Commander Shepard is akin to Jesus Christ in one very unique way.

Matthew 26:31: Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

After the Collector Ship destroyed the Normandy SR-1, www.youtube.com/watch

Not long after Shepard is resurrected.He has this conversation with Operative Jacob Taylor:

Jacob: Okay... i promised that I would answer your questions.What do you want to know?

Shepard: The last thing that I remember is the Normandy blowing up.Did anyone else make it?!

Jacob: Just about everyone survived.A few service men from the lower decks didn't get out in time.Navigator Pressley was killed by an explosion; but everyone else - including the non-Alliance crew.The asari, Liara and the quarian.They all made it out alive.

Shepard: Do you know what any of them are doing now?

Jacob: I don't know Commander.It's been two years.They've moved on.Left the Alliance.They could be anywhere...

Shepard: They were my team.If they knew I was alive.They would come back.

(Nah Shepard.They don't give a f*ck... <_<)

The Commander goes on to discover that not only has the Alliance and Council disowned him and all but scandalized his name.He also learns that every member of his team, the Virmire Survivor, Liara T Soni, Tali, Garrus and Wrex have all for the last two years in his absense developed a "Out of Sight, Out of Mind" attitude concerning the inevitable Reaper Invasion of the Milky Way Galaxy.They all have dropped the ball...   Not one of them has been 'Fighting the Good Fight'. Not one of them has done anything to contribute to the defense and preservation of sentient life in their galaxy.And you know what the real kicker is for Commander Shepard is? The only people who are being pro-active against the Reapers are his former enemies.:blink:The Racchni Queen and Cerberus...
I can barely even imagine how this revelation he endured must have felt.

Now concerning his colleagues, they weren't just being idle.They were doing something productive with their lives.I was genuinley happy to see all of them.And hear of how they have risen in station amongst their people and found purpose in their new roles.But -- "Hang on!" Let us remember how Mass Effect 1 ends and Shepard and the Council's final words of the game...

The Turian Councilor:  "The battle with Soverign destroyed our illusions of peace and security.Now the galaxy will look to us -- the Council -- to defend them."

Shepard: "Sovereign alone nearly wiped you out.You won't stand a chance if the whole Reaper fleet shows up. Not unless I find some way to stop them."

Ambassador Udina: "Shepards right! We're on the verge of war with an enemy unlike any the galaxy has ever known, a war for the very survival of all life as we know it. Humanity is ready to do its part.We will not back down.We will not surrender.We will lead you to battle against the Reapers and we will drive them back into Dark Space!"

The Council (as we learn in ME2) backtracks completely on this pledge.But so to does Shepard's closest friends and allies. The one thing that was missing from Mass Effect 2 was...

(A) Commander Shepard calling his former comrades out on this.

( His former teammates showing actual regret, remorse and contrition of heart, for how they all abandoned Shepard's Legacy.

Everyone you meet again is completely unapologetic and behaves as if they did nothing wrong.Joker is actually one of the people (even though I like him) who pisses me off the most in ME2: For how unlike Rick Jones ( The teenage boy who Dr.Bruce Banner saved)  he is...

Rick Jones was full of regret and remorse for what happened to this complete stranger who saved his life.He took responsibilty for his actions that day and sought to make amends.At no time during Mass Effect 2 does Joker ask Shepard could he have a word. or "Permission to speak freely, Sir." It would have been nice at the very least for Joker to show a bit of self hatred, for how his physical limitattions cost Shepard his life.He doesn't apologize.He doesn't seem to feel any compulsion to acknowledge what happened that day...

Though I have the greatest admiration for the writing team of the Mass Effect Franchise.They really dropped the ball here.Think about how much more drama and tension could have been added if Commander Shepard had to deal with all his mixed feelings now about his former teammates.The game is about Recruitment and Loyalty.But  the real question is: Should Commander Shepard be loyal to them or seek retribution?!  When I realized that all of this was under the surface of ME2, it really affected how I (at this time) feel about the orignal roster.Kaidan, Ashley, Garrus, Tali, Wrex and Liara.I kind of have this,"To Hell With Them!" attitude right now.I'm cool with the New Recruits though.

In Mass Effect 3, I am really curious as to what they are going to do about all this that is boiling under the surface with Commander Shepard.Given how stressed out the Reaper War will have him.It is highly likely that he is going to snap at some people on more than one occasion.And its more than justified: and things he has been keeping a lid on now, may be spoken of then...
BioWare, I hope your listening, b/c: What you left unsaid in Mass Effect 2, Could be well placed in ME3...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 27 août 2011 - 04:36 .

[Confused-Shepard]

TLDR; Shepard is a spineless idiot who doesn't even once accuse his old friends and comrades of essentially abandoning him and pretending Mass Effect 1 didn't happen. If you think about, most Mass Effect squadmates are content in their own little worlds with little regard for the impending doom on the horizon. Nobody expect Shepard seems to give a ****, oh and Martin Sheen.

[ubermensch007]

Confused-Shepard wrote...

TLDR; Shepard is a spineless idiot who doesn't even once accuse his old friends and comrades of essentially abandoning him and pretending Mass Effect 1 didn't happen. If you think about, most Mass Effect squadmates are content in their own little worlds with little regard for the impending doom on the horizon. Nobody expect Shepard seems to give a ****, oh and Martin Sheen.

I know right...But I have to disagree with you about Shepard being "a spineless idiot" In a way, I actually have to commend him for how he conducted himself before, during and after the Suicide Mission.Like a superstar athlete Shepard blocked out all else and stayed focused on his Target and his Mission.He was "In the Zone" (as they say.) Its highly commendable really.But Post Suicide Mission: I can really see Shepard letting all those bastards have it! He should give them a peice of his mind and then some...

But it still would have been great for Shepard to slip up every now and then in ME2 and say something snippy to his former teammates, in the company of his new ones.There should have been some ackward moments.That would have been cool.That's not something you usually see in a video game.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:01 .

[Rip504]

Edit:Delete

But  


"The Greatest Missed Opportunity By the Writers of Mass Effect 2" is Mass Effect 2!!!

Lol J/K

Modifié par Rip504, 06 juillet 2011 - 10:12 .

[Raven4030]

Uh, I don't think the OP was prosleytizing so much as he was drawing a comparison between biblical accounts of Jesus and Shephard. I mean, it's pretty obvious at this point they're painting Shephard as a messianic figure.

With regards to Shephard's team, all I have to ask is what did people expect? They couldn't pursue the Reaper menace when Shephard was ALIVE, if you recall he was being kept out of the way by clearing out geth enclaves. After Shephard died, so went any chance of the Reaper menace being confronted. Without resources (or even leads for that matter), what was his old team to do? They had no money, only the weapons Shephard gave them, and the clothes on their back. Now, after Shephard came back...

Garrus was pretty much right on board. Can't fault him for not pursuing the Reaper menace with nothing to go on and only what money he can take off of the dead mercs.

Tali wanted to go with Shephard, but she had a mission, and she promised to join Shephard as soon as she can. Not going to fault somebody for fulfilling their obligations before going traipsing about the galaxy to find a way to stop a threat that most of the galaxy doesn't believe in.

Wrex is trying to keep his people in line. Reapers win they're extinct, Reapers lose they're STILL extinct if somebody doesn't get priorities in line, and Wrex is really the only one who can pull that off. Most Krogan are too stuck in their old ways... which kind of shows that Wrex is possibly the smartest Krogan alive if he's able to break with tradition so readily.

Virmire Survivor is a marine. Alliance command says 'install the guns', they install the guns. They say 'ignore the reapons', they ignore the reapers. What are they going to do? Quit? Disobey orders? Not going to fault somebody for not wanting to drop everything and become a fugitive for somebody who has been gone for two years and is working with one who they believe is the enemy. That being said, I got the impression they wouldn't have joined Shephard even if they weren't stuck in the corps, so screw 'em.

Liara... honestly, after Shephard came back she has no excuse. Ignoring the greatest threat in the galaxy not because she just can't go back into the fires of battle again, not because she has obligations, but because her petty revenge is the most important thing in her world. She doesn't even consider helping Shephard until after she gets what she wants (a dead Shadow Broker), that selfish ***** can rot for all I care.

[ubermensch007]

"You make a mistake -- own up to it." Jacob Taylor

As you erased your post Rip504, I can't fully respond to what you wrote (Because I never even got a chance to read it)  But thanks Raven4030, for having my back.I wonder Rip, would you have had any problem if I quoted Confucious, Pathagoras, Socrates or Ghandi...<_<

If I know who said what, I tend to credit that person, it doesn't mean I'm attempting to convert anyone to an alternative lifestyle :innocent: Did you also have a problem with EDI when she quoted the Holy Bible while suggesting a name for Legion?

Anyhoo... A hero is often expected to make the ultimate sacrifice for the good of his or her community.But this is not an act done casually.Most if not all heroes, expect at the very least that those who carry on in thier absense, will honor there memory and continue on the good work that the hero begun.And now a look at the opening words of Mass Effect 2..

“One month after the devastating geth attack on the Citadel, the galactic community struggles to rebuild.The Alliance fleet made a tremendous sacrifice to save the Citadel Council and earned humanity membership in this prestigious group. Now the Council is forced to respond to evidence that the Reapers --enormous machines that eradicate all organic civilization every 50,000 years have returned. To quell the rumors, the Council has sent
Commander Shepard and the Normandy to wipe out the last pockets of geth resistance. Officially, they blame the invasion on the geth and their leader, a rogue Spectre.

But for those who know the truth, the search for answers is just beginning.”

The last line here is the most important  -- Shepard's crew, knew the truth and they all decided to do nothing with it! They neither "Spread the Word" or invested in R&D Projects. It's a matter of responsibilty.And not just that, Shepard was not just these people's friend and ally.He was thier Commanding Officer.So that makes what they did downright sacrilege! The bond between soldier and officer (is suppose to be) is a sacred trust.And Garrus as a turian -- of all of them should understand this.But as he made clear in (and said as much in) ME 1, he is not a good turian.The values that his people uphold the most mean little to him.Well, I want a turian on my team who IS A GOOD TURIAN -- Thank you very much -- so as far as I'm concerned Garrus Vakarian can "Go fly a kite" for all I care <_<

There is another issue as well, it goes with what The Illusive Man says in the Mass Effect 2 Launch Trailer.
"The team will have to be strong, there resolve unquestionable."

While no one can doubt the strength, experience and high skill sets of Tali, Garrus, Wrex, Liara, Kaidan and Ashley.There 'RESOLVE' is not only suspect.It has already been proven to be Wanting...Regardless of thier finacial situation and resources post Battle of the Citadel/Death of Shepard.That does not absolve them.A hero is sort of defined by adversity and how they overcome it.How could the people who overcame so much by Shepard's side, do so little without him?!

The most natural question that Shepard would have to ask these bozo's upon his return is, "So what have you been up to the last couple of years? There response: "Oh this that and something else." Shepard's reply, "But what have you been doing about finding a way to better combat the Reapers?" The Team's Response: "Reapers -- Meh...

The way I feel about them right now, I am of have a mind to go back to one of my ME 2 games and get Garrus & Tali killed during The Suicide Mission Cause I really don't want to have to deal with them in  ME 3...I don't want to see there face or hear there voices.( Though I am very fond of Tali's voice )

Sigh --As much as I am dissapointed by what they did, I wish all of them the best in there endeavors -- but I don't want anything to do with them...Maybe I'll feel differently by the time ME 3 comes out...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 08 juillet 2011 - 06:17 .

[Raven4030]

ubermensch007 wrote...

The last line here is the most important  -- Shepard's crew, knew the truth and they all decided to do nothing with it! They neither "Spread the Word" or invested in R&D Projects. It's a matter of responsibilty.And not just that, Shepard was not just these people's friend and ally.He was thier Commanding Officer.So that makes what they did downright sacrilege! The bond between soldier and officer (is suppose to be) is a sacred trust.And Garrus as a turian -- of all of them should understand this.But as he made clear in (and said as much in) ME 1, he is not a good turian.The values that his people uphold the most mean little to him.Well, I want a turian on my team who IS A GOOD TURIAN -- Thank you very much -- so as far as I'm concerned Garrus Vakarian can "Go fly a kite" for all I care <_<

After Shephard died the Alliance and Council ripped apart the story regarding a potential Reaper invasion. His team were just a handful of people, they had no connections or political resources. It is likely they did try to spread the word about the Reaper menace, but... well, it's like people who "spread the word" about the government conspiracy behind 9/11 or that they faked the moon landing: nobody will believe them except the people who buy into that sort of thing anyway. Oh, and I'm not trying to start an argument about what "really" happened on 9/11 or whether the moon landing was real or not, you just have to acknowledge that mainstream society views these ideas as the gabbering of paranoid hippies that refuse to believe there are worse things in the world than the US government or that something good might actually come from them.

Regarding investment... where and with what money? I doubt the Marine Corps pays better in 2183 than it does in 2011. In LotSB it is hinted that Garrus struggled just to make ends meet since the Normandy exploded. The Migrant Fleet barely has the economic base to survive and maintain its own defense let alone bouncing around the very, very big galaxy trying to turn up some evidence of the Reapers so I doubt Tali could do anything. Wrex might have had a nest-egg saved up, but probably spent it all struggling to make sure in 100 years his people are not-extinct. Liara is probably the most well off of everybody but even so probably just edges into the upper-class catagory and it is doubtful she has the funds to finance goose-chase expeditions in the hope of turning up some sort of clue on where to start looking for the Reapers.

And again, WHERE would they invest? Once Sovereign went kaboom any leads they might have had on the Reaper invasion exploded with it. The only weird, possible Reaper connected phenomenon going on in the galaxy were the colony abductions, and nobody found anything at any of the colonies until Freedom's Progress. Even then though, the only reason why there was a lead to begin with is because a Quarian just happened to be there when the Collectors struck and evaded capture.

As far as Garrus goes, he was the only one from ME1 who was willing to drop everything and put his entire life on hold to join up with Shephard again after 2 years. With his skills he could probably make a decent living body-guarding or doing private security... not as fulfilling but it'd pay the bills. But no, he drops everything, and is even willing to put his revenge on hold for the sake of the mission (more than Liara can say) and only asks Shephard to divert if Shephard asks him what's going on. As far as I'm concerned he is the most dependable squadmate in the series.

[knightnblu]

Honestly, the fact that absolutely nothing has been done to prepare for the Reaper threat has always needled me. The VS knew about it, all of Shepard's team knew about it, Anderson knew about it, but nothing was ever done. Two years go by without any preparations being made whatsoever.

I realize that one person cannot make the world go around, but the VS had political capital, Anderson had political capital, but everybody just kind of goes, "ho, hum" and twiddles their thumbs. Are you kidding me?

Just one Reaper nearly destroyed the fleet guarding the Citadel and very nearly destroyed the Destiny Ascension. If a few hundred showed up, what would they do? Even if they believed that the Geth had created Sovereign, what kind of an idiot thinks that they couldn't do it again? I agree, there are some explanations due in ME3. I cannot account for the non-action of the Council, but the apathy of the Alliance is unfathomable and judging by the E3 footage, Earth is really going to pay for their stupidity.

[Raven4030]

knightnblu wrote...

Honestly, the fact that absolutely nothing has been done to prepare for the Reaper threat has always needled me. The VS knew about it, all of Shepard's team knew about it, Anderson knew about it, but nothing was ever done. Two years go by without any preparations being made whatsoever.

I realize that one person cannot make the world go around, but the VS had political capital, Anderson had political capital, but everybody just kind of goes, "ho, hum" and twiddles their thumbs. Are you kidding me?

Just one Reaper nearly destroyed the fleet guarding the Citadel and very nearly destroyed the Destiny Ascension. If a few hundred showed up, what would they do? Even if they believed that the Geth had created Sovereign, what kind of an idiot thinks that they couldn't do it again? I agree, there are some explanations due in ME3. I cannot account for the non-action of the Council, but the apathy of the Alliance is unfathomable and judging by the E3 footage, Earth is really going to pay for their stupidity.

Almost makes me wonder if the Reapers are a metaphor for global warming.

I kind of hope not because that would mean Shepard is Al Gore.

[Nukdae51]

The Alliance may have disowned Shepard in name but maybe not in act.

"Kasumi will examine the graybox and be treated to memories of her time
with Keiji, as well as a warning: if the information in his graybox were
made public, the consequences for the Alliance could be severe."

Hmmm...what could be so severe?

"The Treaty of Farixen is a treaty limiting the number of dreadnoughts among the different Citadel races. "

Like the secret construction of the new Normandy, could the Alliance be assembling dreadnoughts in numbers beyond the Treaty in anticipation of the Reapers?

Modifié par Nukdae51, 18 juillet 2011 - 04:20 .

[Sowtaaw]

I am more suprised the council dint go in a full scale war with the geth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Confused-Shepard wrote...

TLDR; Shepard is a spineless idiot who doesn't even once accuse his old friends and comrades of essentially abandoning him and pretending Mass Effect 1 didn't happen. If you think about, most Mass Effect squadmates are content in their own little worlds with little regard for the impending doom on the horizon. Nobody expect Shepard seems to give a ****, oh and Martin Sheen.

The user name is oddly appropriate.

[BentOrgy]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Albeit in most cases I think the answer would be: what should I have done? I'm just one person.

The only people really in a position to do something about was the Council.

Eh, sorta. I've always kinda commended Liara for doing what she's doing; tracking down the Shadow Broker.

When you think about it, the Shadow-pimp's one of the few forces to have theof power of influencing the tide. The others being obviously The Council and Cerberus.

Sure, she might have been doing it mainly to bust her Drell buddy out of prison, but in the end, she did become one of the most influential powers in the galaxy.
Which is why she was my Shep's first target; hello sugar-mama.

[ubermensch007]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You make a good point and then dive head long into comic book crap for like... three or four paragraphs.

Oh, Honestly Saphra! Geez... You know, I didn't even know what TL;DR even meant into I started this thread.I don't use 'Net Speak' all that much.

Okay, good grief.I'll edit my original post here and just put in a link to that information about the Hulk and Rick Jones.

[BentOrgy]

Saphra Deden wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Eh, sorta. I've always kinda commended Liara for doing what she's doing; tracking down the Shadow Broker.

I don't. She's not doing it to fight the Reapers, she's just doing it for revenge. There isn't even any proof at the time that the Collectors were Reaper agents (though anyone with a brain would have been very suspicious). If Liara wanted to impress me she'd be on Ilos or the Citadel trying to unravel more of the Reaper trap and learn more details about how else they might return to the galaxy.

In ME2 rather than remaking her character into a badass and changing her profession they should have had her be reseraching the Protheans and Reapers in ME2. Perhaps meeting up with you after the Collector ship and promising to use the information you gained to chase down new leads.

Then Arrival can be about her instead of Kenson and it can have a big budget and not be cheap throw-away DLC and Liara won't be indoctrinated and... other things.

You want to talk about wasted opportunities... Arrival takes the cake.

I think you already know of my opinion on Ilos, Arrival and missed opportunities, seeing as you posted in my thread. I did there, and I do here; completely aggree

And I did say that she was doing it out of revenge, so its not like I didn't notice; I was simply saying that out of all the squaddies from ME1, she seemed to be doing the most. At least, the end result of what she was doing seemed the most influential and meaningful toward our overall goal, depending on what the Virmire Survivor was up doing to snatch that Spectre promotion.

Then again Bioware seems to be content slowly digging themselves into a hole with missed opportunities and flismy story telling/logic.

[ubermensch007]

At first, I thought that this thread was going to be about one thing. But there are a few more things worth mentioning...

It Should Have Been More Difficult to Upgrade The Normandy SR-2

I'm talking Industrial Espionage and Back Alley Deals kind of stuff.Should have been required... We all know that Shepard is on Trial for what happened during the DLC Arrival.But even if that was not released as a part of ME 2.I could see Commander Shepard possibly being brought up on charges for how he went about getting classified Military Technology.


In fact Kasumi Goto should have 'primarily' been recruited to help Shep get what he needed to improve their chances of being the first starship to return from the Omega 4 Relay...The way BioWare treated upgrading the Normandy was as casual as you or I just making an online purchase with a credit card... <_<

Modifié par ubermensch007, 27 août 2011 - 04:38 .

[CharlesMarkley]

I think I remember Joker saying something like he joined Cerberus because the Alliance was doing nothing to help prepare for/defend from the upcoming Reaper invasion...and they wouldn't let him fly.

I agree that a few "permission to speak freely" moments would have been more believable.

For example, everyone questions Shephard about his being with Cerberus.  Nowhere is there an option for him to tear into the questioner: "Hello!...they BROUGHT ME BACK FROM THE DEAD! I owe them at least something, and they seem to be the ONLY ONES willing to do something to fight the Reapers!"

Modifié par CharlesMarkley, 26 août 2011 - 03:53 .

[Sgt Stryker]

You really can't blame the Alliance for grounding Joker though. He did refuse a direct order from a superior officer, which resulted in the loss of that officer. I'm surprised there wasn't a court-martial!

[CharlesMarkley]

No, I don't fault the Alliance that...but Joker still joined up with an outfit that was at least on the surface "fighting the good fight." He went with one of the only groups that had the resources and will to do something about the imminent Reaper invasion.

I added this into my first post as well: 

I agree that a few "permission to speak freely" moments would have been more believable.

For example, everyone questions Shephard about his being with Cerberus.  Nowhere is there an option for him to tear into the questioner: "Hello!...they BROUGHT ME BACK FROM THE DEAD! I owe them at least something, and they seem to be the ONLY ONES willing to do something to fight the Reapers!"

Modifié par CharlesMarkley, 26 août 2011 - 03:54 .

[Lapis Lazuli]

Raven4030 wrote...


Almost makes me wonder if the Reapers are a metaphor for global warming.

I kind of hope not because that would mean Shepard is Al Gore.

Shep invented the extranet?

actually another apt analogy would be the macroeconomic reapers that are invading as we speak. It's a cycle and the last time they invaded was 1929.

[KevShep]

Raven4030 wrote...


I kind of hope not because that would mean Shepard is Al Gore.

I so hope your not super cereal.

[ubermensch007]

3. NPC - History with Commander Shepard

In Mass Effect 1, the protagonist could either be an ass or very personable to his crewmates.Yet in ME 2, BioWare decided to ignore and invalidate how the players interpersonal relationships with the NPC's played out.

Can someone please tell me: "WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT OF ALL THOSE POSSIBLE ACHEIVEMENTS - If they weren't going to have any effect in the next game?

The Achievements that I'm talking about are the sort that have to do with whether you used some characters more so than others.What BioWare should have done is this.Shepard's relationship with his squadmates should range from:

- Colleague: Just a professional relationship - Meaning they work together, but don't necessarily have to like each other)

- Comrade: "A brother in arms" - Meaning you use these NPC's alot in battle.

- Good Buddy: You chat with and hang out with this person alot.

- Love Interest: Emotional intamacy and sexual chemistry.

For example: Kaidan and my Shep were not very close in my canon playthrough.It would be great if when this Virmire Survivor is met on Horizon - he is not only not all that overjoyed to see his former Commander alive.He is almost indifferent to his presence.But manages to thank Commander Shepard for saving his life and most of the colonist anyway.

That would have been cool.Instead of the "one reaction fits all" that we got from BioWare.

Concerning the "Comrade Achievement" - If you don't use certain teammates all that often there should be consequences.As there are in life, if someone feels like they are being overlooked and under appreciated.A squadmate could voice there concerns to you and or go as far as giving you an ultimatum or just deciding after a while to part ways with Commander Shepard altogether.

On the flip-side the "Good Buddy Achievement" could also get upset with Shepard if they never see any action on the battlefield.

BioWare... You say that you want Fan Feedback.well here it is.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 27 août 2011 - 05:04 .

[Raven4030]

I imagine the reason they didn't do that is because games with a 10 year development cycle tend to not be nearly as good as the hype. (Note: I'm not trying to imply this one thing would add a 10 year development cycle, this comment is hyperbole meant to draw attention to my point)

I realize there were places where improvement could have been made to make interactions more realistic and dynamic, and that we all want more. But the fact is they did not fail because they didn't take the time to program every niggling little detail, voice every alternate line for every possible scenario, or factor in every minor detail from the previous game.

And no, an achievement does not imply significance, those achievements for taking somebody out a lot only exist to encourage multiple playthroughs, game developers often do this.

Modifié par Raven4030, 27 août 2011 - 07:12 .