161 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

TJPags wrote...

Right, this is like saying someone who's sister was raped should never be allowed to become a cop.

If the someone in question IS CRAZY, then I completely agree with this. Cops have to be able to correctly assess threat levels posed by suspects. How many suspects do you think Meredith would shoot in the name of "vigilence?"

[TJPags]

DreamerM wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Right, this is like saying someone who's sister was raped should never be allowed to become a cop.

If the someone in question IS CRAZY, then I completely agree with this. Cops have to be able to correctly assess threat levels posed by suspects. How many suspects do you think Meredith would shoot in the name of "vigilence?"

To the extent she was "crazy", she was only that way at the end of Act 3, IMO.  And that was the influence of the idol.

Given the state of events in Kirkwall, I really don't think she did anything wrong up to her supr ninja powers at the end.

[DreamerM]

TJPags wrote...

To the extent she was "crazy", she was only that way at the end of Act 3, IMO.  And that was the influence of the idol.

Actually, by the time you start playing in Act 2, Cullen will tell you that she's taken to locking herself in her room and talking to herself for hours. That doesn't sound crazy to you?

Plus that was the heyday of Ser Alrick's reign of terror, and although she may have turned down his Tranquil Solution, she certainly turned a blind eye at best and endorsed his actions at worst. And that's unforgivable.

TJPags wrote...
Given the state of events in Kirkwall, I really don't think she did anything wrong up to her supr ninja powers at the end.

Yeah, annulling the Circle that keeps the mages confined and safe is a perfect way to handle your crazy apostate problem. Wait, no it's not. That actually makes no sense at all.

Meredith wasn't just insane, she was incompetant. The problems facing the Templars in kirkwall weren't significantly more extreme then those facing any Circle. Even without the Idol, Meredith's emotional baggage couldn't let her safely handle the everyday dangers of shepharding mages for a living.

[Rifneno]

lucia 123 wrote...

"What other option do we have? Shall we look the other way? Tell the poor victims of a possessed mage that we meant no harm?''

That line says it all for me. Its all about her sister and guilt.

No it's not. She plays the sympathetic card, but she's just a goddamn monster at heart. Only minutes after her "It breaks my heart to do it! :(" speech, before charging the Gallows to kill a bunch of people that she herself just admitted contains a bunch of innocents she says gleefully, "I am eager to begin." That's simply evil. Even if one did believe that it needed to be done, no one with a soul would be eager to bust in and start butchering the people they've been working/living with for years.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What I'm wondering is this: What if she just hates mages and never had a sister? What if the idol made her make that up and she actually believes it?

You know, that's actually a good possibility.

Also: Ditto on everything DreamerM has said.

[TJPags]

Ehh, I think out loud often. Guess I'm crazy too.

[DRTJR]

Meredith should have let someone take the Vicountcy and concentrate on the mage issue, she got greedy and prideful. she never should have been the Knight Comander to begin with, Kickwall needed Vigilance and patience of which she only can do the former.

[DreamerM]

TJPags wrote...

Ehh, I think out loud often. Guess I'm crazy too.

Difference between "thinking out loud" and "talking to something that isn't actually there." If you're confused about the difference, please ask your shrink.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Ehh, I think out loud often. Guess I'm crazy too.

You should get a stool, you'll never reach those straws like that.

[TJPags]

Thanks Dr. Freud.

[GavrielKay]

TJPags wrote...

Right, this is like saying someone who's sister was raped should never be allowed to become a cop.

Really, I get that people don't like the Templars, but let's not go crazy, okay?

Most cops (the ones that don't just shoot you down on the street) operate in a system with checks and balances.  If the cop goes overboard in getting an arrest, it often results in the suspect going free on evidence and trial issues. 

Meredith isn't a cop, she's a prison warden.  She has to work with and around the people that she has deep fear and anger issues about.  She's supposed to be the lynchpin in a system that protects and nurtures the mages while keeping them away from common folk who might harm or be harmed by them.  Putting someone with zero objectivity in a position to work with mages on a daily basis is a really bad choice. 

Elthina would have to have been raped and whipped before being blown up in order to truly pay for the crime of appointing Meredith as Knight Commander.

[DRTJR]

from what we can take from the Tranquility process in DA:O, Meredith had become judge, jury, and executioner for the mages in her jurisdiction. in the mage Origin it took both the first enchanter and the knight commander to agree that this mage must become tranquil. I'm not getting that vibe in kickwall by act three. kickwall needed leniency not an iron fist

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

Rifneno wrote...

No it's not. She plays the sympathetic card, but she's just a goddamn monster at heart. Only minutes after her "It breaks my heart to do it! :(" speech, before charging the Gallows to kill a bunch of people that she herself just admitted contains a bunch of innocents she says gleefully, "I am eager to begin." That's simply evil. Even if one did believe that it needed to be done, no one with a soul would be eager to bust in and start butchering the people they've been working/living with for years.

She says/does this in Act III , she's completely under the thrall of the idol by then. Varric's brother wasn't exactly a nice guy pre-idol, the idol made him a monster. Ditto for Meredith. She wasn't a nice woman pre-idol, but she didn't turn into a full on monster until afterwards.

DreamerM wrote...

Actually, by the time you start playing in Act 2, Cullen will tell
you that she's taken to locking herself in her room and talking to
herself for hours. That doesn't sound crazy to you?

Plus that
was the heyday of Ser Alrick's reign of terror, and although she may
have turned down his Tranquil Solution, she certainly turned a blind eye
at best and endorsed his actions at worst. And that's unforgivable.

Yet, she also turned a blind eye to Templars like Thrask who had a policy of being good to mages. ("We all know you're soft on the robes Thrask.") Also turned a blind eye to a Mage Hawke roaming around the city. ("Wait, I know you.") Was she a good leader? Hell no, but prior to going completely bat@#%& she did try to walk a fine line.

Yep, crazy...but not pants-on-head insane until Act III.

GavreialKay

Elthina would have to have been raped and whipped before being blown up
in order to truly pay for the crime of appointing Meredith as Knight
Commander.

Raped and whipped? Wow, just wow. Considering that Elthina didn't have much choice in the matter (re: Codex I posted earlier).

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 07 juillet 2011 - 03:27 .

[GavrielKay]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

GavreialKay

Elthina would have to have been raped and whipped before being blown up
in order to truly pay for the crime of appointing Meredith as Knight
Commander.

Raped and whipped? Wow, just wow. Considering that Elthina didn't have much choice in the matter (re: Codex I posted earlier).

Given that's what was happening to the mages under the care of their Knight Commander, and given Meredith was subject to the Grand Cleric...  I really hated Elthina.  I personally wouldn't do that to her, but as far as truly "paying" for her crimes, she'd have to suffer a fair bit.

[DRTJR]

I got the sense that Meredith had been on the downward slide before act two, and that she wasn't as hateful when appointed, and that the templars normally go Knight captain to knight Commander.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

Elthina would have to have been raped and whipped before being blown up in order to truly pay for the crime of appointing Meredith as Knight Commander.

LOL. I wanted to say it before, but I figured I'd get called a misogynist ass. Kudos.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

She says/does this in Act III , she's completely under the thrall of the idol by then. Varric's brother wasn't exactly a nice guy pre-idol, the idol made him a monster. Ditto for Meredith. She wasn't a nice woman pre-idol, but she didn't turn into a full on monster until afterwards.

So? She's had the idol the whole time we've seen her. And except for brief appearances in the qunari invasion, it was all in Act III. All this crap about her sister and her supposedly sympathetic reasons for being Hitler Lite all come from Act III too.

Yet, she also turned a blind eye to Templars like Thrask who had a policy of being good to mages. ("We all know you're soft on the robes Thrask.") Also turned a blind eye to a Mage Hawke roaming around the city. ("Wait, I know you.") Was she a good leader? Hell no, but prior to going completely bat@#%& she did try to walk a fine line.

Clear plot armor in both cases.

Raped and whipped? Wow, just wow. Considering that Elthina didn't have much choice in the matter (re: Codex I posted earlier).

Elthina is responsible for almost everything that happened through her inaction. Being raped and whipped would be letting her off EXTREMELY light. How many rapes and beatings, nevermind murders, happened because that piece of trash let Meredith run amok under a guise of neutrality? Nothing any mortal could ever do to her would begin to equal the suffering she caused.

[Tails_Night]

I actually found out about meredith's sister this evening when I reloaded the save file and sided with the templars and followed it halfway through and I was like O.O woa that'd make me feel some anger sorrow and hatred as well... also probably make you want to redeem your family name as well.

[DRTJR]

She was worried that if she supported one side over the other then their would have been blood, and if Meredith and Orsino Fought the Divine might have called an exalted march against Kickwall. which is bad

Modifié par DRTJR, 07 juillet 2011 - 04:04 .

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

So? She's had the idol the whole time we've seen her. And except for brief appearances in the qunari invasion, it was all in Act III. All this crap about her sister and her supposedly sympathetic reasons for being Hitler Lite all come from Act III too.

[/quote]

No she hasn't. She did not get the idol until sometime after Act I. You do see her in Act I during the cutscene. Hell, she's even influencing the city guard to keep the Ferelden refugees out (showing a little ****y side there as well). Act II she's still wielding the standard-issue templar sword. If she had the idol at that point it's already been hauled off to a blacksmith to be forged.

Like I said, she wasn't a nice woman, but she didn't hit rock bottom until Act III.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

Clear plot armor in both cases.

[/quote]

I have no idea what this means. All I know is that those events occur.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

Elthina is responsible for almost everything that happened through her inaction. Being raped and whipped would be letting her off EXTREMELY light. How many rapes and beatings, nevermind murders, happened because that piece of trash let Meredith run amok under a guise of neutrality? Nothing any mortal could ever do to her would begin to equal the suffering she caused.[/quote]

[/quote]
Because whipping, raping, and killing her would make it all better right? Bring the dead back to life, make the rape victims whole again? She took the neutral stance because she believed it was the best option for both Templars AND Mages.

Regardless, it's besides the point. The point of this thread wasn't to paint Meredith as a great woman of fortitude or a she-devil spawn of the damned. The point of this thread was to say that she had some serious issues, but those issues were BASED on something. She's not a cardboard cut-out of a villain.

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 07 juillet 2011 - 04:17 .

[Rifneno]

DRTJR wrote...

She was worried that if she supported one side over the other then their would have been blood, and if Meredith and Orsino Fought the Divine might have called an exalted march against Kickwall. which is bad

She appointed Meredith in the first place and given that Thrask says things went to hell when Meredith was appointed, I have no reason to give Elthina the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't obvious Meredith was a lunatic at the time. Because she almost certainly was.

More importantly, it was her job to make sure the templars weren't pissing all over Chantry law. A cop doesn't avoid dealing with a guy brandishing a gun in a bank because he might start shooting people if the cop intervenes. That's beyond dumb. The notion that the templars would have rebelled against Elthina if she tried to oust Meredith has little supporting evidence. On the contrary, look how many templars joined Thrask's conspiracy. I'm sure Meredith would've had a few fringe supporters, but they would be quickly quelled. Even in the event that the templars would've rebelled, Elthina should've written to the Divine and explained the situation and asked for reinforcements to handle Meredith's unit.

Not that she thought any of this from what I've seen. The whole "she wasn't to blame because she thought they'd rebel" theory is an invention of the community here. I may be mistaken, but I don't recall a single line in-game supporting it. Elthina never says she doesn't oust Meredith because she'd afraid of backlash. She says "magic allows abuses beyond the scope of mortals." Ya know, right before she chastises Hawke for "fanning the flames of rebellion" by saying Meredith should allow a new Viscount to be chosen.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

No she hasn't. She did not get the idol until sometime after Act I. You do see her in Act I during the cutscene. Hell, she's even influencing the city guard to keep the Ferelden refugees out (showing a little ****y side there as well). Act II she's still wielding the standard-issue templar sword. If she had the idol at that point it's already been hauled off to a blacksmith to be forged.

I refuse to count seeing her walk silently past a beggar as her being in that Act. We didn't even know who she was. She was "random woman in red hood walking past while Varric talks." She doesn't say a word until the end of Act II, and she doesn't address the mage situation until Act III.

I have no idea what this means. All I know is that those events occur.

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/PlotArmor

Same reason you can use a bunch of blood magic in front of Cullen and hear him tell you how mages aren't people later.

Because whipping, raping, and killing her would make it all better right? Bring the dead back to life, make the rape victims whole again? She took the neutral stance because she believed it was the best option for both Templars AND Mages.

Right, so no one should ever be punished for anything ever again.

Regardless, it's besides the point. The point of this thread wasn't to paint Meredith as a great woman of fortitude or a she-devil spawn of the damned. The point of this thread was to say that she had some serious issues, but those issues were BASED on something. She's not a cardboard cut-out of a villain.

Except that she is. A paragraph long sob story that involves her being responsible for 70 people's deaths doesn't mean she has some great depth.

[bebop50]

[quote]DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

So? She's had the idol the whole time we've seen her. And except for brief appearances in the qunari invasion, it was all in Act III. All this crap about her sister and her supposedly sympathetic reasons for being Hitler Lite all come from Act III too.

[/quote]

No she hasn't. She did not get the idol until sometime after Act I. You do see her in Act I during the cutscene. Hell, she's even influencing the city guard to keep the Ferelden refugees out (showing a little ****y side there as well). Act II she's still wielding the standard-issue templar sword. If she had the idol at that point it's already been hauled off to a blacksmith to be forged.

Like I said, she wasn't a nice woman, but she didn't hit rock bottom until Act III.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

Clear plot armor in both cases.

[/quote]

I have no idea what this means. All I know is that those events occur.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

Elthina is responsible for almost everything that happened through her inaction. Being raped and whipped would be letting her off EXTREMELY light. How many rapes and beatings, nevermind murders, happened because that piece of trash let Meredith run amok under a guise of neutrality? Nothing any mortal could ever do to her would begin to equal the suffering she caused.[/quote]

[/quote]
Because whipping, raping, and killing her would make it all better right? Bring the dead back to life, make the rape victims whole again? She took the neutral stance because she believed it was the best option for both Templars AND Mages.

Regardless, it's besides the point. The point of this thread wasn't to paint Meredith as a great woman of fortitude or a she-devil spawn of the damned. The point of this thread was to say that she had some serious issues, but those issues were BASED on something. She's not a cardboard cut-out of a villain.
[/quote]

When I first heard her story my impression was that she might have been the cause of her sister losing it.Either that incident is the cause of her attitude or she's always been like that and resented/hated her sister. Elthina told you in the begining of act3 her power was less than what we assumed plus if you take the templar side Meredith tell you that Elthina was seeing Meredith as unfit and ruled by her hated, Anders killed her to let Meredith loose without anyone stopping her.

[megski]

I don't think its fair to completely vilify her. I think Meredith wanted to join the order to enforce the law and make sure others didn't make the same mistake her family did. Whether or not you agree with how the Chantry does things, the law is the law until it changes. The lyrium idol was Meredith's undoing among other things.

[bebop50]

That an possiblity but we don't interact with her till the end of act 2 into < I'm mad> act 3 so we don't have much to go on Act 3 wasn't set up all that well.

[Chuvvy]

Was this pre or post deus ex sword? If it was post it could just be a lie, who knows with her.

[Chuvvy]

DreamerM wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Right, this is like saying someone who's sister was raped should never be allowed to become a cop.

If the someone in question IS CRAZY, then I completely agree with this. Cops have to be able to correctly assess threat levels posed by suspects. How many suspects do you think Meredith would shoot in the name of "vigilence?"

Daily, or in a year? Because if it's a year, I don't have that much time.

[Vit246]

I'm curious about the circumstances that led to Meredith's sister becoming an abomination. A mage does not just spontaneously become one.