161 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

megski wrote...

I don't think its fair to completely vilify her. I think Meredith wanted to join the order to enforce the law and make sure others didn't make the same mistake her family did. Whether or not you agree with how the Chantry does things, the law is the law until it changes. The lyrium idol was Meredith's undoing among other things.

Being a bigot because of a childhood trauma is still being a bigot.  She should never have been given authority over mages.  At most she should have been a rank and file Templar with careful supervision.

Meredith suffers from the same pride that Loghain does in DAO.  She
thinks that she is the only one qualified to keep the mages in line and
refuses to allow a Viscount to be chosen.  She gives my Hawke a dirty look after the Arishok duel because she hates the rivalry for the hearts and minds of the populace.  She is a power mad zealot even before the idol's influence if the other Templars' statements are to be believed.  Much like Loghain, she tries so hard to force everyone else to see her as the only solution that she actually makes things worse.

[megski]

bebop50 wrote...

That an possiblity but we don't interact with her till the end of act 2 into < I'm mad> act 3 so we don't have much to go on Act 3 wasn't set up all that well.

I've sided with the templars and spoke to her, but never heard that response.  I wasn't really thinking once and brought Anders, and he smart mouthed her.  I gasped out loud, "NO anders" haha.  

[megski]

GavrielKay wrote...

megski wrote...

I don't think its fair to completely vilify her. I think Meredith wanted to join the order to enforce the law and make sure others didn't make the same mistake her family did. Whether or not you agree with how the Chantry does things, the law is the law until it changes. The lyrium idol was Meredith's undoing among other things.

Being a bigot because of a childhood trauma is still being a bigot.  She should never have been given authority over mages.  At most she should have been a rank and file Templar with careful supervision.

Meredith suffers from the same pride that Loghain does in DAO.  She
thinks that she is the only one qualified to keep the mages in line and
refuses to allow a Viscount to be chosen.  She gives my Hawke a dirty look after the Arishok duel because she hates the rivalry for the hearts and minds of the populace.  She is a power mad zealot even before the idol's influence if the other Templars' statements are to be believed.  Much like Loghain, she tries so hard to force everyone else to see her as the only solution that she actually makes things worse.

I don't think she's a bigot.  I'm not saying she's a saint either.  She had her undoings just like everyone else.  I think being responsible for kirkwall's safety either way is enough pressure.  She couldn't deal with the pressure, just like Orsino.  Just like Elthina.  Just like the Viscount.  

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

megski wrote...

I don't think she's a bigot.  I'm not saying she's a saint either.  She had her undoings just like everyone else.  I think being responsible for kirkwall's safety either way is enough pressure.  She couldn't deal with the pressure, just like Orsino.  Just like Elthina.  Just like the Viscount.  

I feel the same. Kirkwall was riddled with incompetence...riddled. I completely understood why the Arishok went bonkers and decided to take matters into his own hands. Kirkwall was/is a mess.

[megski]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

megski wrote...

I don't think she's a bigot.  I'm not saying she's a saint either.  She had her undoings just like everyone else.  I think being responsible for kirkwall's safety either way is enough pressure.  She couldn't deal with the pressure, just like Orsino.  Just like Elthina.  Just like the Viscount.  

I feel the same. Kirkwall was riddled with incompetence...riddled. I completely understood why the Arishok went bonkers and decided to take matters into his own hands. Kirkwall was/is a mess.

I almost added him in there, haha.  But I completely agree.  

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

Rifneno wrote...

I refuse to count seeing her walk silently past a beggar as her being in that Act. We didn't even know who she was. She was "random woman in red hood walking past while Varric talks." She doesn't say a word until the end of Act II, and she doesn't address the mage situation until Act III.

You KNOW she doesn't have the idol in Act I because Hawke hasn't found it yet. You may not know who the woman is who walks past, but it was pretty damn obvious to me she was the same woman in the massively huge loading screen and therefore in some way important.

You don't have to interact with her directly for her to have an impact. She's already impacted Hawke by interfering with the city guard duties (something she does AGAIN later).

Same reason you can use a bunch of blood magic in front of Cullen and hear him tell you how mages aren't people later.

You can write the Hawke mage off as "plot armor" (or whatever), but not Thrask, and definitely not the fact that she turned down Alrik's request. If she was such a insane monster at that point in the game, she should have supported him completetly...in fact it should have been her idea.

Right, so no one should ever be punished for anything ever again.

Way to take it to the extreme. So, we should all kill, murder, and rape, because others kill, murder, and rape. See, extremes are fun!

[Edit: Also, lest we forget, that Kirkwall actually did have a blood
mage problem. Missing recruits anyone? Then you have charming members of
the Circle like Grace. Not every templar was a demon and every mage an
innocent snowflake. Elthina still did what she thought was best. You can debate whether or not it was best, but her intentions were in the right place. 

She gets added to my long list of incompetants.]

Except that she is. A paragraph long sob story that involves her being responsible for 70 people's deaths doesn't mean she has some great depth.

IMHO, nobody in DA 2 has "great depth". But it also doesn't mean the entire writing of her character was "blonde Hitler woman...RAWR." just like Anders wasn't "cat-loving abomination" or Fenris "glowy emo elf". They did put SOME backstory in there.

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 07 juillet 2011 - 05:38 .

[Rifneno]

Slidell505 wrote...

Was this pre or post deus ex sword? If it was post it could just be a lie, who knows with her.

Post, despite what some seem to be trying to say. There's virtually no interaction with her pre-idol.

Vit246 wrote...

I'm curious about the circumstances that led to Meredith's sister becoming an abomination. A mage does not just spontaneously become one.

"Welcome to Kirkwall!
Days without a spontaneous abomination rampage: 2 0" - Sign on the outskirts of Kirkwall

GavrielKay wrote...

Being a bigot because of a childhood trauma is still being a bigot.  She should never have been given authority over mages.  At most she should have been a rank and file Templar with careful supervision.

Exactly. Besides, pretty much everyone has a reason for bigotry if you dig for it. People aren't born bigots. My brother is a racist. He's got a big sob story background too. Yeah, it sucks, but I don't think it gives him a free ticket to be a douche to people based on the color of their skin. And he's my brother, whom I otherwise think is fairly respectable and a good man, I should be biased FOR him. Having a bad experience doesn't mean bigotry is more forgivable.

Meredith suffers from the same pride that Loghain does in DAO.  She
thinks that she is the only one qualified to keep the mages in line and
refuses to allow a Viscount to be chosen.  She gives my Hawke a dirty look after the Arishok duel because she hates the rivalry for the hearts and minds of the populace.  She is a power mad zealot even before the idol's influence if the other Templars' statements are to be believed.  Much like Loghain, she tries so hard to force everyone else to see her as the only solution that she actually makes things worse.

Huh. I never noticed that. A good analogy.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

You KNOW she doesn't have the idol in Act I because Hawke hasn't found it yet. You may not know who the woman is who walks past, but it was pretty damn obvious to me she was the same woman in the massively huge loading screen and therefore in some way important.

You don't have to interact with her directly for her to have an impact. She's already impacted Hawke by interfering with the city guard duties (something she does AGAIN later).

I didn't mean that it isn't Meredith walking by, I mean that seeing her walk by once does not count as her being in Act I. And yes, she has an impact. It's almost all bad, too. Thrask says in Act I that Meredith's heavy-handed crap only makes things worse.

Not every templar was a demon and every mage an innocent snowflake. Elthina still did what she thought was best. You can debate whether or not it was best, but her intentions were in the right place.

Hitler thought he was doing what was best too. What's your point?

(Response for the obligatory response: No, I'm not comparing Elthina to Hitler. ... Meredith already has that distinction, clearly.)

[DreamerM]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

She says/does this in Act III , she's completely under the thrall of the idol by then. Varric's brother wasn't exactly a nice guy pre-idol, the idol made him a monster. Ditto for Meredith. She wasn't a nice woman pre-idol, but she didn't turn into a full on monster until afterwards.

Yet Bartrand's power was limited. He was able to inflict suffering only on his own hired help. Meredith is the functional leader of an entire city-state with a whole Island Prison full of souls who's lives she holds in her hands. She was much more powerful and thus, in a much better position to cause cruelty and suffering.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Yet, she also turned a blind eye to Templars like Thrask who had a policy of being good to mages. ("We all know you're soft on the robes Thrask.")

Excusing one does not excuse the other, considering Alrick got away with his abuses for at least four years and Alrick's attempts at making the Mage's lot better was ultimately futile. "Soft on the robes" could mean "only beats one of them before breakfast and doesn't seem particularly into it" given the context.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Also turned a blind eye to a Mage Hawke roaming around the city. ("Wait, I know you.")

She says that to Hawke no matter what, whether you're a Rogue or a Mage or a chicken or whatever. It's a sign Hawke is teh Famous.

It's funny though, I had Anders in my party at the time and the very first time I ever saw this scene I actually thought she was talking to HIM, since I think his free undercity clinic has made him the most famous "secret" apostate in Kirkwall, which has to gall her. But no, it's too much to hope that she'll respond to THAT. Heck you can walk him right into her office and nothing will happen. Sadly.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Was she a good leader? Hell no, but prior to going completely bat@#%& she did try to walk a fine line.

I'm glad you admit that she was not a good leader. Lots of people (including actual people in-game) confuse her hardness with strength, and it's not the same thing. A Knight Commander needs to be able to deal with the darkness and evils of blood magic, abominations and demons WITHOUT letting it get to them, and due to her past, this was always going to be Meredith's problem, idol or no idol.

[Rifneno]

DreamerM wrote...

It's funny though, I had Anders in my party at the time and the very first time I ever saw this scene I actually thought she was talking to HIM, since I think his free undercity clinic has made him the most famous "secret" apostate in Kirkwall, which has to gall her. But no, it's too much to hope that she'll respond to THAT. Heck you can walk him right into her office and nothing will happen. Sadly.

I like the part where a rivaled Hawke takes a party including Anders to the Gallows post-Justice quest and warns Cullen about it, then it's never acknowledged again by anyone. That warms my heart.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

Rifneno wrote...

Hitler thought he was doing what was best too. What's your point?

(Response for the obligatory response: No, I'm not comparing Elthina to Hitler. ... Meredith already has that distinction, clearly.)

Already made my point several posts ago, then again in that post. Haterage on Elthina all you like (or Meredith for that matter), but she did have reasons for making the decision to stay neutral...and yes, much like Hitler (in a stretch) she was wrong, but she THOUGHT she was doing good. Period.

[DreamerM]

Rifneno wrote...

I like the part where a rivaled Hawke takes a party including Anders to the Gallows post-Justice quest and warns Cullen about it, then it's never acknowledged again by anyone. That warms my heart.

This is probably a good moment to point out that for all their hardline stance, the Kirkwall Templars actually really sucked at their jobs.

[TEWR]

Even the damn codex says people think Elthina's age has rendered her ineffective.


Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known.

[Rifneno]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

Already made my point several posts ago, then again in that post. Haterage on Elthina all you like (or Meredith for that matter), but she did have reasons for making the decision to stay neutral...and yes, much like Hitler (in a stretch) she was wrong, but she THOUGHT she was doing good. Period.

And? What, are we in the world of Inspector Gadget where bad guys sit in an underground lair petting a black cat and gloating about how evil they are and how they're going to do something really evil only because it's evil? Seriously, is that what this is about? Someone actually doesn't realize that pretty much every evil bastard ever thought they were doing good?

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

DreamerM wrote...

Yet Bartrand's power was limited. He was able to inflict suffering only on his own hired help. Meredith is the functional leader of an entire city-state with a whole Island Prison full of souls who's lives she holds in her hands. She was much more powerful and thus, in a much better position to cause cruelty and suffering.

Exactly what the idol wanted I expect.

DreamerM wrote...
Excusing one does not excuse the other, considering Alrick got away with his abuses for at least four years and Alrick's attempts at making the Mage's lot better was ultimately futile. "Soft on the robes" could mean "only beats one of them before breakfast and doesn't seem particularly into it" given the context.

Nope, it doesn't. She let Alrik get away with dubious acts and likewise let Thrask get away with (some in the order) dubious acts. As for the "soft on the robes" bit I didn't read it in the "maybe I'll slap you instead of punching you" way at all.

Not all templars were evil, not all mages were innocents, and vice versa.

DreamerM wrote...

I'm glad you admit that she was not a good leader. Lots of people (including actual people in-game) confuse her hardness with strength, and it's not the same thing. A Knight Commander needs to be able to deal with the darkness and evils of blood magic, abominations and demons WITHOUT letting it get to them, and due to her past, this was always going to be Meredith's problem, idol or no idol.

Yep, incompetant like all the rest of the leadership in Kirkwall IMHO. But she wasn't "snidely whiplash" paper thin in story. Which is really my point, and the point of the thread.

[megski]

DreamerM wrote...
I'm glad you admit that she was not a good leader. Lots of people (including actual people in-game) confuse her hardness with strength, and it's not the same thing. A Knight Commander needs to be able to deal with the darkness and evils of blood magic, abominations and demons WITHOUT letting it get to them, and due to her past, this was always going to be Meredith's problem, idol or no idol.

I don't think anyone here is saying that she is a good leader.  No one in Kirkwall was a good leader.  I don't see why her past is that big of a problem.  We can only speculate as to Meredith's motivations for joining the templar order and we only see the later part of her career when she was crazy.  

All I'm saying is that everyone deserves a finger pointed at them for the fiasco that is kirkwall, everyone's leadership should be questioned equally.  Orsino was WAY too soft and slack in his duties, Elthina didn't do ANYTHING, and Meredith was way to hard.  The Arishok had badass horns..anyway!  

I also wanted to point out, if Meredith's sense of duty isn't justified by what happened with her sister, then how could Anders be justified in his duty?  Our past makes us for good or bad.  I don't see why Meredith should be singled out for hers.  

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

Rifneno wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

Already made my point several posts ago, then again in that post. Haterage on Elthina all you like (or Meredith for that matter), but she did have reasons for making the decision to stay neutral...and yes, much like Hitler (in a stretch) she was wrong, but she THOUGHT she was doing good. Period.

And? What, are we in the world of Inspector Gadget where bad guys sit in an underground lair petting a black cat and gloating about how evil they are and how they're going to do something really evil only because it's evil? Seriously, is that what this is about? Someone actually doesn't realize that pretty much every evil bastard ever thought they were doing good?

And I answered your question. Not my problem if you don't like the answers. I think someone is getting riled up for no reason. RELAX. Hate Elthina, don't care one way or the other, but yes she thought she was doing good. "Road to hell being paved with good intentions..." 

(And for the record not every evil bastard thinks they do good, sometimes they know they're evil and don't give a @#&$.)

[DreamerM]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Exactly what the idol wanted I expect.

The one idol to rule them all... The one Idol to find them...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Nope, it doesn't.

Why not?

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
She let Alrik get away with dubious acts

Get away with? Do we know for sure that he was acting alone when he
Tranquiled mages like Karl who passed their Harrowings (an illegal act
btw), for such crimes as dating other mages or being small and female
and rapeable? Anders said Thrask liked to "experiment on mages," to see
what it would take to send them crying to a demon. I have a hard time
beliving he carried all this out by himself too.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
and likewise let Thrask get away with (some in the order) dubious acts.

What "dubious acts" do you mean exactly? What did he actually manage
to do before his failed alliance with the Starkhaven runaways? For all
we know, his "soft" acts were limited to actually talking nicely to the
mages.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
As for the "soft on the robes" bit I didn't read it in the "maybe I'll slap you instead of punching you" way at all.

You can read it that way, but I don't think you can prove it was actually the case. It's conjecture like everything else.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Not all templars were evil, not all mages were innocents, and vice versa.

True, but when given a choice between the people with all the weapons, training, and ability vs. people in robes who have been locked up for years and will have to sacrifice blood, mind, and soul in an attempt to Not Die, I can't in good conscience pick the oppressor over the oppressed. I have to side with the underdog. Sorry.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Yep, incompetant like all the rest of the leadership in Kirkwall IMHO. But she wasn't "snidely whiplash" paper thin in story.

Snidly Whiplash is a boss. But again, if they actually wanted us to sympathize with her a bit, understand where she was coming from, we should have had a chance to learn her story BEFORE deciding whether we were going to support her or Orsino in act 3. If you support the mages because they are smaller and squishier and being oppressed, then Meredith remains a cookie cutter and all the sympathetic backstories in the world don't help.

Modifié par DreamerM, 07 juillet 2011 - 07:02 .

[DreamerM]

megski wrote...
I don't see why her past is that big of a problem.  We can only speculate as to Meredith's motivations for joining the templar order and we only see the later part of her career when she was crazy. 

Actually, that's what this topic is about. Meredith will tell you her motivations behind becoming a Templar. The story about her sister and all the dead innocents is meant to humanize her somewhat, which is ironic because you don't learn the story unless you are already on her side...

Meredith's past is a problem for the reasons I stated above: a Templar's job is not to kill mages, it's to contain them safely. A mage who hands themselves over to a Circle surrenders their freedom, but what they are supposed to gain in exchange is some measure of security: protected by the Templar both from the supersituous citizenry and from the dangers of their own powers. Any Circle will have to deal with demons, abominations and blood mages, and to work effectively the Knight Commander has to be able to face all that WITHOUT becoming a monster themselves.

And ya just know that Meredith saw her sister in every Abomination, her family in every dead body. She was like Anders, in a way: JUSTICE had warped into VENGENCE.

[Rifneno]

megski wrote...

I also wanted to point out, if Meredith's sense of duty isn't justified by what happened with her sister, then how could Anders be justified in his duty?  Our past makes us for good or bad.  I don't see why Meredith should be singled out for hers.  

She's not. She's singled out for actions, and we're refusing to take her sob story as a justification for creating a thousand more sob stories for others. Burn the **** at the stake.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

And I answered your question. Not my problem if you don't like the answers. I think someone is getting riled up for no reason. RELAX. Hate Elthina, don't care one way or the other, but yes she thought she was doing good. "Road to hell being paved with good intentions..." 

(And for the record not every evil bastard thinks they do good, sometimes they know they're evil and don't give a @#&$.)

Your answer was so stupid I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming I misinterpreted. As they say, my bad. Speaking of misinterpreting, I'm hardly riled up. Unless you count rolling my eyes as riled up. Don't make the assumption of telling people to "relax" because you think you have a superpower that lets you interpret tone over text.

DreamerM wrote...

*snip*

You've got Alrik and Thrask confused BTW. Thrask was the good one, who tried to save the Starkhaven mages and later tried to overthrow Meredith. Alrik was the rapist/child molester who wanted to tranquil every mage in the country.

[megski]

Rifneno wrote...
She's not. She's singled out for actions, and we're refusing to take her sob story as a justification for creating a thousand more sob stories for others. Burn the **** at the stake.

Maybe I need a refresher, but what actions through out act one and two are Meredith a part of?  I'm not being a smart ass either.  I can't remember Meredith committing a horendous atrocity.  I just remember people saying she was tightening her grip and that is it.  Is there some codex I missed about something she did?  

In Geisha's defense, you do seem really, really angry.  That's the tone I get from your writing, I'm guessing that's not intended though.  

[DreamerM]

Rifneno wrote...

You've got Alrik and Thrask confused BTW. Thrask was the good one, who tried to save the Starkhaven mages and later tried to overthrow Meredith. Alrik was the rapist/child molester who wanted to tranquil every mage in the country.

Thank you. I've now fixed it. Sorry about that.

[megski]

DreamerM wrote...

Actually, that's what this topic is about. Meredith will tell you her motivations behind becoming a Templar. The story about her sister and all the dead innocents is meant to humanize her somewhat, which is ironic because you don't learn the story unless you are already on her side...

Meredith's past is a problem for the reasons I stated above: a Templar's job is not to kill mages, it's to contain them safely. A mage who hands themselves over to a Circle surrenders their freedom, but what they are supposed to gain in exchange is some measure of security: protected by the Templar both from the supersituous citizenry and from the dangers of their own powers. Any Circle will have to deal with demons, abominations and blood mages, and to work effectively the Knight Commander has to be able to face all that WITHOUT becoming a monster themselves.

And ya just know that Meredith saw her sister in every Abomination, her family in every dead body. She was like Anders, in a way: JUSTICE had warped into VENGENCE.

Well, I can understand her telling her story to only some one that she had on her side, some characters aren't that apt to give out personal details.  

But see, it is a Templar's job to kill mages, thats why their job is a difficult one.  It takes a special person to decide when a sword of mercy is needed.  I compared the experience in Kirwall with the one I perviously had with the circle in Ferelden, and going from Gregoir to Meredith is quite the extreme.  

I guess I'm not seeing the problem with some one's past affecting what they see in the present.  I don't think that leads directly to hate.  If that makes sense?  I just try to see good in everyone.  I see that Meredith's sister affected her and I imagine that maybe she tried to convince families with the story of her sister to turn their loved one over to the circle in the beginning.  Kind of like how Loghain was a hero in the beginning, and I think it was you that compared them earlier.  At any rate, she is a good example of virtues being warped into something wrong.  It makes me think about Thrask too, you know he saw his daughter in every desperate mage.  LIke I said, I'm just trying to see the good, I think it WAS there at some point.  

[Wolfborn Son]

DreamerM wrote...

If they wanted Meredith's backstory to matter, they shouldn't have required you to unwaveringly support confirmed torturers, abusers, and rapists in order to learn it.

To be fair, I honestly think that if Meredith was aware of what some of her Templar did, she'd personally execute them.   Remember, she was against the plan to make all magi Tranquil. Sadly, all of Kirkwall was pretty... Oblivious to everything going on around them.

[DreamerM]

[quote]Wolfborn Son wrote...

To be fair, I honestly think that if Meredith was aware of what some of her Templar did, she'd personally execute them.   [/quote]

Maybe, but personally I doubt it. I think it's more likely that if she knew, she'd still hide behind denial for fear that any crack in the unified front of the Templar forces would result in all the Mages smelling weakness, turning into Abominations and eating everybody. In her mind VIGILENCE is the only reason another moment goes by without that happening.

If she'd punish the offending Templar, she'd do it quietly and make sure the truth of the matter never got out. And she'd say it was for the right reasons, another choice she made to preserve the Templar's ability to protect the city.

[quote]Wolfborn Son wrote...
Remember, she was against the plan to make all magi Tranquil.[/quote]

True, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't approve (or at least turn a blind eye) to other atrocities.

Sadly, all of Kirkwall was pretty... Oblivious to everything going on around them.
[/quote]

Funily enough, it seems rather common knowledge in Kirkwall that Meredith is a hard-ass and the Circle isn't fit place for man or beast.

[akayasha]

[quote]DreamerM wrote...

[quote]Wolfborn Son wrote...

To be fair, I honestly think that if Meredith was aware of what some of her Templar did, she'd personally execute them.   [/quote]

Maybe, but personally I doubt it. I think it's more likely that if she knew, she'd still hide behind denial for fear that any crack in the unified front of the Templar forces would result in all the Mages smelling weakness, turning into Abominations and eating everybody. In her mind VIGILENCE is the only reason another moment goes by without that happening.

If she'd punish the offending Templar, she'd do it quietly and make sure the truth of the matter never got out. And she'd say it was for the right reasons, another choice she made to preserve the Templar's ability to protect the city.

[quote]Wolfborn Son wrote...
Remember, she was against the plan to make all magi Tranquil.[/quote]

True, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't approve (or at least turn a blind eye) to other atrocities.

Sadly, all of Kirkwall was pretty... Oblivious to everything going on around them.
[/quote]

Funily enough, it seems rather common knowledge in Kirkwall that Meredith is a hard-ass and the Circle isn't fit place for man or beast.

[/quote]

I guess I understand at least now why she became a templar, but I think over time and because of her duties she just became hardened and oblivious to anything atrocious that happens to mages. She definitely wouldn't care if something happened to the mages in Kirkwall.