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[Persephone]

Macropodmum wrote...

megski wrote...

I never thought about that really.  So, according to Loghain, Tevinter Maleficar slavers are ok...just no Orlesians!  After all that Anora purged the alienage too, bleh, so much for caring about the little people.  

Meh, the only person Anora cares about is herself, I doubt she even lamented Cailans death

She definitely mourned Cailan. All of this b/w mentality towards Anora really makes no sense to me. At all.

And I have yet to see Loghain saying that "Tevinter Maleficar slavers are ok".

As for bloodlines: Not really valid in Ferelden, as the Landsmeet decides who will rule. (Hence Bryce almost becoming king after Maric died)

[Persephone]

DRTJR wrote...

Anora's servant is also Orlesian, that's another failure. so Orlesian and Elf purges, I wish i could have killed her. also I don't blame Loghain,

How is Erlina being an Orlesian bard elf a faliure exactly?

Besides, the Alienage has been purged under Cailan & Maric as well. So? Would you kill Cailan over that too? Or not, because he is sooooooooo awwwwwww shiny golden GLORIOUS?

Modifié par Persephone, 09 juillet 2011 - 08:08 .

[Rifneno]

Vit246 wrote...

At that point, Loghain himself admitted the Blight to be a real threat, he just questions why Grey Wardens are needed. And he intended to deal with both the Blight and Orlais, despite how stupid that was.

Despite the fact that, to use his own phrase, he'd failed spectacularly at the task so far. Whereas the Warden has united dwarves, elves, mages, and a good portion of human Fereldens against all odds. The Tevinter Imperium got its ass handed to it on a silver platter for TWO HUNDRED YEARS trying arrogantly to fight a blight on its own, and Loghain expects to accomplish it with not just a laughable fraction of the power but with its forces divided watching a border for no reason other than his own paranoia. He's delusional, and anyone that has the slightest shred of faith in him is a complete fool who couldn't run a McDonalds let alone a kingdom.

Anora only opposes you in the first place if you stupidly make it clear that you will not support her or support Loghain not paying for his actions. How she does it is irrelevant. Anora is willing to oppose her father and give you her full support if you give yours as well. The only lie there can be is if the Warden gives the throne to Alistair after promising Anora the throne. As stupid as it is for Anora to support Loghain at that point, you did not give her much choice when negotiating with her.

Speaking of lies, you lie. Anora says flat out she'll still support the Warden before she spreads a bunch of filth about him/her at the Landsmeet, yet you claim "how she does it is irrelevant" right before saying the only lie there can be is if the Warden does unto her what she wants to do unto the Warden. Are you hoping none of us remember DAO or something? How did you think that was going to work for you?

Oh please. Bloodlines have no intrinsic value or effect on leadership skills.

Did I say it did? By your half-truth and whole lie logic, the first lady should become president in the event of his death rather than the vice president.

Persephone wrote...

She definitely mourned Cailan. All of this b/w mentality towards Anora really makes no sense to me. At all.

We noticed.

[Plaintiff]

I despise Anora, but even if I didn't, I wouldn't support her anyway. I know nothing about her and I only have her word to go on that she's a halfway decent ruler. She CLAIMS to be the power behind Cailan but if that was the case, then she should've stepped up and taken charge when Cailan died, instead of deferring to her daddy. She didn't step up to the plate when she should've and when she DOES take action, she gets herself captured like an idiot.

I don't know her, I can't trust her, and she's proven herself to be utterly useless so far. So I'm gonna go with the guy I've been travelling with for a year and has proven to be consistently trustworthy.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 juillet 2011 - 11:41 .

[Nerevar-as]

Actually it´s stated a few times she´s the one doing the ruling in Ferelden. Read the Codex.

Never had any problem with her, and in the playthrough where I plan to kill Loghain I won´t be stupid enough to tell her.

[DRTJR]

@Persephone

I didn't like Cailan for some of the same reasons Loghain betrayed Cailan. Loghain was not a good man but Loghain was a pragmatic, Anora was just doing it for teh Evlulz

[The Baconer]

Persephone wrote...
She is the queen and it is the right thing to do politically. Ever heard of Elizabeth I. and Mary Stuart? Refusing to have Mary executed for 18 years caused Elizabeth no short amount of trouble.

The Baconer wrote...
It's politically pragmatic, yes,

Persephone wrote...
Anora's decision was the right one, DAII even confirms this with Teagan
coming to get Alistair back to "start over". What do you think
Eamon/Alistair will do to Anora in the end?

Reaching.

Alistair hints at having her
killed should he survive the Blight. So he/Eamon have just as much
"gall", never mind them being the ones staging a coup. (Well, Eamon,
actually)

Don't care. Anora isn't my Warden's bro.

Modifié par The Baconer, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:05 .

[Plaintiff]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Actually it´s stated a few times she´s the one doing the ruling in Ferelden. Read the Codex.

Still not buying it. Her actions in the face of crisis directly contradict any claims to competency. If she's capable, she should have shown it when she had the chance.

[DRTJR]

I doubt Cailan was as stupid as he seems, He was betrayed because Cailan would have Dumped the queen for Empress Celene of the Orlesian Empire(Probably The same way as King Henry the eighth). So i doubt that he was a king in title only.

[DreamerM]

Yeesh, there is no escaping the Great Landsmeet Debate. Even when the topic at hand is Meredith's sister, you just know someone somewhere is gonna mention the Landsmeet and BOOM, suddenly that's all anyone can talk about.

[DreamerM]

Beerfish wrote...

A first enchanter covering up the misdeeds of mages under his command.

What misdeeds, exactly? And isn't it Orsino's job to try and defend the mages in his charge? A job he apparently got (according to the codex) because he was younger and scrappier and nobody else wanted it?

Beerfish wrote...
A first enchanter knowingly consorting with a mage not of the circle dealing in blood magic.

..A plot development which, for the life of me, I swear was shoehorned in at the last moment just to make the choice between the Armored Thugs and the Squishy Robes seem kind of hard.

Really, it sounds like Orsino was facinated by Quinten's research in the letter we find, but we are never, ever told WHY he was fascinated. Every other interaction with him portrayed him as a logical and compassionate person fighting a losing fight but still determined to try and protect the mages in his care. Why he would know or care about Quinten and his research, they never even try to explain.

Beerfish wrote...
Suddenly a whole pile of mages from another circle (Starkhaven) showing up and causing massive problems.

By running away. Then getting desperate when cornered and using blood magic. Then running away again. Then getting caught. Then one of them goes crazy. Yeah, those sound like massive problems. What templar force could be expected to handle one crazy mage? Clearly the Circle was beyond saving.

Beerfish wrote...
A whole whack of tevinter mages showing up to stir the pot.

It looked to me like the Tevinter were more interested in the slaves then in the mages. I don't remember them having much of an opinion about the Circle.

Beerfish wrote...
A whole whack of her own templars deciding to do their own thing, some pro mage, some anti mage.

Evidence of Meredith's incompetance. She kept the mages on such a short leash they were basically duct-taped to the wall of the Tower, but she let her own people have so much leeway that rapings, beatings, torture sessions, and "random" Rites of Tranquility went by for years. The most generous interpretation of this is that she didn't know. The worst one is that she did know and either turned a blind eye or endorsed this treatment.

And some policies, like floggings, were public knowledge and were definitely either her idea or approved by her. Why giving 30 lashes to a Tranquil who wasn't fast enough to stop a thief is supposed to "keep Kirkwall safe" is beyond me.

Beerfish wrote...
A 'Champion of Kirkwall' and his or her lackies show up and starts interfering with the mage, templar, chantry, viscount dynamic.

Dang that Champion. How dare s/he save the city, become important, and actually have opinions about stuff. Everybody should do only what she tells them to. Especially the important people. The important person with opinions was clearly an unmanagable situation that nobody could have managed.

Beerfish wrote...
Considering the fact that there was a blood mage or abomination on every corner of Kirkwall her vigilance was well placed and her call for annulment when it was made was totally justified.

How? I am legitimately curious. The blood mages on the corners are apostates, or from Starkhaven. With the exception of Quinten and that Wanna-be-Magister lady who's name I forget, we're not shown much convincing evidence that any of them would have been much given to blood magic unless they were pushed too far. They were all too desperate.

[In Exile]

DreamerM wrote...

If they wanted Meredith's backstory to matter, they shouldn't have required you to unwaveringly support confirmed torturers, abusers, and rapists in order to learn it.

That echoes my though. It would have gone a long way toward humanizing her... if instead of going idol-crazy she related this story to you and then decided to fight you for that reason (and not fight you at all if you side with her).

[Persephone]

DRTJR wrote...

@Persephone

I didn't like Cailan for some of the same reasons Loghain betrayed Cailan. Loghain was not a good man but Loghain was a pragmatic, Anora was just doing it for teh Evlulz

Anora is a lot of things, a "BWUAHAHA! Look how evil I am!" caricature is not among them. At all. Never mind that I do not view Ostagar as a betrayal.

[Persephone]

Rifneno wrote...

Anora only opposes you in the first place if you stupidly make it clear that you will not support her or support Loghain not paying for his actions. How she does it is irrelevant. Anora is willing to oppose her father and give you her full support if you give yours as well. The only lie there can be is if the Warden gives the throne to Alistair after promising Anora the throne. As stupid as it is for Anora to support Loghain at that point, you did not give her much choice when negotiating with her.

Speaking of lies, you lie. Anora says flat out she'll still support the Warden before she spreads a bunch of filth about him/her at the Landsmeet, yet you claim "how she does it is irrelevant" right before saying the only lie there can be is if the Warden does unto her what she wants to do unto the Warden. Are you hoping none of us remember DAO or something? How did you think that was going to work for you?

Not a lie at all. She is a politician. If you stupidly tell her that you plan to depose her and kill her father while you're at it, why should she support you? And you talked about running a kingdom.......if you don't know even the most rudimentary political game, stay away from ruling a kingdom. FAST.

[Rifneno]

Persephone wrote...

Anora is a lot of things, a "BWUAHAHA! Look how evil I am!" caricature is not among them. At all. Never mind that I do not view Ostagar as a betrayal.

That's your failing, no one else's.

Persephone wrote...

Not a lie at all. She is a politician. If you stupidly tell her that you plan to depose her and kill her father while you're at it, why should she support you? And you talked about running a kingdom.......if you don't know even the most rudimentary political game, stay away from ruling a kingdom. FAST.

Which is exactly why I do lie to the harpy. Unlike her, my Warden gives a damn about Ferelden. It's just a shame Alistair is too nice to send her to the axeman like she deserves.

[Macropodmum]

Rifneno wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Anora is a lot of things, a "BWUAHAHA! Look how evil I am!" caricature is not among them. At all. Never mind that I do not view Ostagar as a betrayal.

That's your failing, no one else's.

Persephone wrote...

Not a lie at all. She is a politician. If you stupidly tell her that you plan to depose her and kill her father while you're at it, why should she support you? And you talked about running a kingdom.......if you don't know even the most rudimentary political game, stay away from ruling a kingdom. FAST.

Which is exactly why I do lie to the harpy. Unlike her, my Warden gives a damn about Ferelden. It's just a shame Alistair is too nice to send her to the axeman like she deserves.

Couldn't agree more...For starters on the playthrough where I put Alistair on the throne I didn't even discuss support options with her deliberately to see what happened at the landsmeet, so the first she knew I opposed her was at the landsmeet where she had no problems coming up with a bunch of lies against those who saved her being murdered by her lunatic father. 

And yes, how like Alistair to show compassion and lock her up instead of taking her lying head off, if it had been me I would have happily fed her to darkspawn.  And after having played a city elf run through I would much rather have a compassionate king ruling my people than some greedy, coniving cow of a queen.

[Tyrium]

hmmn, I never knew that story. I gues her attitude makes more sense now ... I wish there was a way to find that out siding with mages, grayness is always awesome in a villian.

[Rifneno]

Macropodmum wrote...
And yes, how like Alistair to show compassion and lock her up instead of taking her lying head off, if it had been me I would have happily fed her to darkspawn.

Huh... that gives me a horrifying thought that will haunt my nightmares from now on. Imagine an Anora broodmother. What soul-shattering crime against nature would that thing produce?!    

[Macropodmum]

Rifneno wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...
And yes, how like Alistair to show compassion and lock her up instead of taking her lying head off, if it had been me I would have happily fed her to darkspawn.

Huh... that gives me a horrifying thought that will haunt my nightmares from now on. Imagine an Anora broodmother. What soul-shattering crime against nature would that thing produce?!    

ROFL, I'm so terribly sorry, it slipped my mind that they would be more likely to turn her than to kill her.  On the other hand though do you think that might be a deterrant to them using humans as broodmothers if they had to listen to her all the time?

[Persephone]

Rifneno wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Anora is a lot of things, a "BWUAHAHA! Look how evil I am!" caricature is not among them. At all. Never mind that I do not view Ostagar as a betrayal.

That's your failing, no one else's.

Persephone wrote...

Not a lie at all. She is a politician. If you stupidly tell her that you plan to depose her and kill her father while you're at it, why should she support you? And you talked about running a kingdom.......if you don't know even the most rudimentary political game, stay away from ruling a kingdom. FAST.

Which is exactly why I do lie to the harpy. Unlike her, my Warden gives a damn about Ferelden. It's just a shame Alistair is too nice to send her to the axeman like she deserves.

The failing is yours, namely your inability to accept ANY viewpoint that disagrees with your b/w narrow ,minded reduction of two fascinating characters to evil cardboard cutouts.

How is she a "harpy"? Because she will not let herself be deposed without a fight? Were you expecting her to nod along like Alistair does? Well, she's no one's puppet. Not even.....*gasp* .....the Warden's. And yes, it's shocking that she would want to save her father's life, being his daughter and all. How DARE she?

So you are not only close-minded but also a hypocrite who does EXACTLY what Anora does, even citing the same motives.

And caring about Ferelden.......great idea to give it a ruler who has no experience, no training in politics, diplomacy etc. Yes, brilliant plan.

[Persephone]

Macropodmum wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Anora is a lot of things, a "BWUAHAHA! Look how evil I am!" caricature is not among them. At all. Never mind that I do not view Ostagar as a betrayal.

That's your failing, no one else's.

Persephone wrote...

Not a lie at all. She is a politician. If you stupidly tell her that you plan to depose her and kill her father while you're at it, why should she support you? And you talked about running a kingdom.......if you don't know even the most rudimentary political game, stay away from ruling a kingdom. FAST.

Which is exactly why I do lie to the harpy. Unlike her, my Warden gives a damn about Ferelden. It's just a shame Alistair is too nice to send her to the axeman like she deserves.

Couldn't agree more...For starters on the playthrough where I put Alistair on the throne I didn't even discuss support options with her deliberately to see what happened at the landsmeet, so the first she knew I opposed her was at the landsmeet where she had no problems coming up with a bunch of lies against those who saved her being murdered by her lunatic father. 

And yes, how like Alistair to show compassion and lock her up instead of taking her lying head off, if it had been me I would have happily fed her to darkspawn.  And after having played a city elf run through I would much rather have a compassionate king ruling my people than some greedy, coniving cow of a queen.

What were you expecting when you flat out refused her request to talk to her? How naive can one be to expect full support in return for rudeness/nothing?

Besides, Loghain would not have murdered her, nor is he a "lunatic".

Yes, dear "compassionate", kind kings with all their incompetence are surely preferable to a ruler who has kept Ferelden afloat over the past few years........yes, superb idea. Sure worked out with Mary Tudor........<_<

[CrimsonZephyr]

Persephone wrote...
Yes, dear "compassionate", kind kings with all their incompetence are surely preferable to a ruler who has kept Ferelden afloat over the past few years........yes, superb idea. Sure worked out with Mary Tudor........<_<

See, now that's a fallacy. Being a compassionate ruler does not a stupid ruler make. They are not mutually exclusive personality traits, but one does not necessarily follow from the other.

[Beerfish]

DreamerM wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

A first enchanter covering up the misdeeds of mages under his command.

What misdeeds, exactly? And isn't it Orsino's job to try and defend the mages in his charge? A job he apparently got (according to the codex) because he was younger and scrappier and nobody else wanted it?

Misdeeds? Having a good number of them going out on their own out of the tower at night, missing for days on end and him only going to the champion to check it out. 

Beerfish wrote...
A first enchanter knowingly consorting with a mage not of the circle dealing in blood magic.

..A plot development which, for the life of me, I swear was shoehorned in at the last moment just to make the choice between the Armored Thugs and the Squishy Robes seem kind of hard.

Really, it sounds like Orsino was facinated by Quinten's research in the letter we find, but we are never, ever told WHY he was fascinated. Every other interaction with him portrayed him as a logical and compassionate person fighting a losing fight but still determined to try and protect the mages in his care. Why he would know or care about Quinten and his research, they never even try to explain.

Quentins research was blood magic related, Orsino knew this,  he supported his buddy in these endeavors, if he didn't know what the heck Quentin was doing then you would think the 1st enchanter wouldn't just keep hading over research and patting the guy on teh back.

Beerfish wrote...
Suddenly a whole pile of mages from another circle (Starkhaven) showing up and causing massive problems.

By running away. Then getting desperate when cornered and using blood magic. Then running away again. Then getting caught. Then one of them goes crazy. Yeah, those sound like massive problems. What templar force could be expected to handle one crazy mage? Clearly the Circle was beyond saving.

Eh?  One crazy mage?  Decimus lead a group of crazy mages and despite being given the ability to let these freaks they still show up and turn on the one Templar who is doing everything he can to help them behind Merediths back.   Do you think the fact that Thrask and some of his boys working against the Kirkwall templars and the fact that they are willing to kill kirwall templars who come to put down apostate mages is a minor annoyance to Meredith and the kirkwall templars?  Think again.

Beerfish wrote...
A whole whack of tevinter mages showing up to stir the pot.

It looked to me like the Tevinter were more interested in the slaves then in the mages. I don't remember them having much of an opinion about the Circle.

They wanted the Qunari book for one thing.  A group of tevinters battling the champion and quanri is a major concern of the kirwall templars.

Beerfish wrote...
A whole whack of her own templars deciding to do their own thing, some pro mage, some anti mage.

Evidence of Meredith's incompetance. She kept the mages on such a short leash they were basically duct-taped to the wall of the Tower, but she let her own people have so much leeway that rapings, beatings, torture sessions, and "random" Rites of Tranquility went by for years. The most generous interpretation of this is that she didn't know. The worst one is that she did know and either turned a blind eye or endorsed this treatment.

And some policies, like floggings, were public knowledge and were definitely either her idea or approved by her. Why giving 30 lashes to a Tranquil who wasn't fast enough to stop a thief is supposed to "keep Kirkwall safe" is beyond me.

This old excuse, she treated them poorly thus all the problems are her fault.  You can easily argue that she was incompetant but you can just as easily argeu that she was incompetant by not being harder and more tight in her control than the other way around.

Beerfish wrote...
A 'Champion of Kirkwall' and his or her lackies show up and starts interfering with the mage, templar, chantry, viscount dynamic.

Dang that Champion. How dare s/he save the city, become important, and actually have opinions about stuff. Everybody should do only what she tells them to. Especially the important people. The important person with opinions was clearly an unmanagable situation that nobody could have managed.

There is nothing wrong with the Champion doing all those things, but the chamion did clearly interfer on more than one occasion in templar/mage/chantry business.  As I said this makes Merediths job tougher.

Beerfish wrote...
Considering the fact that there was a blood mage or abomination on every corner of Kirkwall her vigilance was well placed and her call for annulment when it was made was totally justified.

How? I am legitimately curious. The blood mages on the corners are apostates, or from Starkhaven. With the exception of Quinten and that Wanna-be-Magister lady who's name I forget, we're not shown much convincing evidence that any of them would have been much given to blood magic unless they were pushed too far. They were all too desperate.


How?  Because there are blood mages that there is no documentaion are for sure from Starkhaven.  (And if you look above, you totally downplay the starkhaven bit then bring it up here.)  There were mages from the circle going out without permission and making side deals with renegade templars.  Remember the Templars job is not just to baby sit a very small subset of all mages they have to deal with them all.  Even then Meredith did not call for annulment until after a Mage blew up the chantry and after Orsino refused to let her search the tower from top to bottom.

[DRTJR]

The Extent that Orsino knew of Quinton’s research is sketchy at best, and the benefits that could have arisen are fascinating, Orsino Probably didn't know how alive Quinton's subjects were. And after three years a Diplomatic and or sarcastic hawke probably would not have tried to Murder Orsino because he knew Quinton was doing stuff.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Anora is a lot of things, a "BWUAHAHA! Look how evil I am!" caricature is not among them. At all. Never mind that I do not view Ostagar as a betrayal.

That's your failing, no one else's.

Persephone wrote...

Not a lie at all. She is a politician. If you stupidly tell her that you plan to depose her and kill her father while you're at it, why should she support you? And you talked about running a kingdom.......if you don't know even the most rudimentary political game, stay away from ruling a kingdom. FAST.

Which is exactly why I do lie to the harpy. Unlike her, my Warden gives a damn about Ferelden. It's just a shame Alistair is too nice to send her to the axeman like she deserves.

Wait, wait, wait... So you whine about her lying, and now you admit yourself that you are lying to her face. I'm just gonna let that peculiarity simmer for a moment....

Anora only backstabs the Warden if the Warden himself tries to sabotage her plans. If you go along with her plan, she doesn't backstab the Warden.