1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Bourne Endeavor]

Made Nightwing wrote...

On the contrary, Paragon Shepard DOES try to soften his decisions throughout ME1, not so much in ME2. Udina was under attack at the Citadel, Shepard knew that going there immediately was a mistake, so he apologised that he would not come straight away, but promised to bring help. Udina could relay this message to those still fighting. It makes sense for a Paragon option. I can't write for other people's Sheps, and they sure as **** don't want me to put words in their mouths.

My personal theory is that they're mission is to deal with the batarian orbital mirror system. I just wish Bioware had done more than hint at it.

The dialogue still comes across submissive, not paragon. Shepard is softer as a paragon but does not apologize, especially not to Udina. There are exceptions usually pertaining to more emotionally intimite scenes but nothing akin to the OP's. The chips with the Council are a good comparison and Shepard is not submissive in any of those exchanges. In any case, to each their own. All I am certain is if that was the paragon choice, none of my Shepards would ever touch it.

redbaron76 wrote...

Nobady accusess cerberus of being behind missing colonies. VS is sent to investigate possible rumors that cerberus was involved in disapirancess of colonies. Rumors that were started by tim to getr ashley on horizon, so that collectors would attack that planet so that shepard can stop the attack. Cerberus started own rumors so that alliance would suspect them. So malanek999 when ashley accuses you of the treason she is right. She did not accuse cerberus of colonies disapiaring, she only stated that alliance susspected cerberus because of the rumors tim planted.

VS: "What if they're (Cerberus) behind it? What if they're the ones working with the Collectors?"

Right out of their mouth. So yes they are indeed accusing Cerberus. In fact allow us to assume they were correct. Alright, Cerberus has sent the Collectors to Horizon to abduct the colonists for some unknown reason. Shepard, by his/her own admission, works for them yet Shepard came to save Horizon. So we can thus conclude Cerberus sent Shepard to attack themselves. Sheer genius, the Alliance brace would never see it coming!

Hell that is an accurate statement, the Brace wouldn't think someone was that stupid. You really cannot get much more incompetent than this, which is why Horizon is so heavily criticized. The writing is appalling for how moronic everyone involved comes across.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 17 juillet 2011 - 06:23 .

[Made Nightwing]

Except, y'know, they just got out of a tank, where they'd been paralyzed, and about to be abducted. Would you be at the top of your game in similar circumstances? VS was looking for something to explain what the **** had just happened. No military officer would be capable of thinking clearly in a situation like that. The voice acting probably should have had them more confused, the animation more disoriented.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Except, y'know, they just got out of a tank, where they'd been paralyzed, and about to be abducted. Would you be at the top of your game in similar circumstances? VS was looking for something to explain what the **** had just happened. No military officer would be capable of thinking clearly in a situation like that. The voice acting probably should have had them more confused, the animation more disoriented.

What you just described did not happen in the game. There is no insinuation whatsoever they were placed into one of those pods, and in fact would be highly improbable given their subsequent appearance. We would be forced to inquire how they managed to escape when no one prior had ever accomplished such a feat. Even the crew were helpless until Shepard's arrival during the SM. That remark is blatantly false derived entirely from your imagination. Moving on, the paralyze suspends all movement culpability whilst leaving the individual conscious of their surroundings.

Once again you are making assumptions. The VS was perfectly normal until their emotional outburst. Being irrational is one thing, and quite reasonable to a certain extent under the circumstances. What is so egregious is no person would ever reach their conclusions barring a loss of brain function. They have see for themselves Cerberus could not be behind these attacks, yet not only fault them for no reason but deem it fit to call Shepard a traitor? You completely ignored my prior post citing if we followed along with VS. They are claiming Cerberus is attacking themselves.

This is not confusion, this is sheer incompetency.

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turnsto leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Sums up Horizon perfectly.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:34 .

[Wulfram]

I don't think Cerberus would be unwilling to sacrifice a few Collectors to fool Shepard, if they were working with them. It's not what they were doing, but it's not totally out there.

[Spanky Magoo]

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turnsto leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

lol That should have been one of the videos in LotSB.

[Yakko77]

Spanky Magoo wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turnsto leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

lol That should have been one of the videos in LotSB.

Where can I get a PC like JKoopman has.  It apparently comes with an awesome button.

[Terastar]

redbaron76
I agree with what you said up until this "so that collectors would attack that planet so that Shepard can stop the attack."
I do not think that TIM really cared whether or not you stopped the attack or not.
TIM was wanting to see if the collectors was really interested in Shepard enough to go to somewhere that had someone who mattered to Shepard in order to hopefully capture Shepard.I believe he tells you this in the after speech. TIM's whole reason for resurrecting you was because he thought that because you had defeated them before that seeing you back from the dead alive would cause them to fear mankind. (I think then that TIM would try to work out some bargain with them like Saren did).

[RKOshepard]

I dont care about the VS's attitude, I just hate the fact that Shepard is bending over for the alliance

[Dazaster Dellus]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turnsto leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Sums up Horizon perfectly.

He forgot to say

Anderson: Also, for being so incompetent we are hereby promoting you to the rank of Spectre.

But yeah, that post was great. I approve!

Modifié par Dazaster Dellus, 17 juillet 2011 - 04:15 .

[Made Nightwing]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Except, y'know, they just got out of a tank, where they'd been paralyzed, and about to be abducted. Would you be at the top of your game in similar circumstances? VS was looking for something to explain what the **** had just happened. No military officer would be capable of thinking clearly in a situation like that. The voice acting probably should have had them more confused, the animation more disoriented.

What you just described did not happen in the game. There is no insinuation whatsoever they were placed into one of those pods, and in fact would be highly improbable given their subsequent appearance. We would be forced to inquire how they managed to escape when no one prior had ever accomplished such a feat. Even the crew were helpless until Shepard's arrival during the SM. That remark is blatantly false derived entirely from your imagination. Moving on, the paralyze suspends all movement culpability whilst leaving the individual conscious of their surroundings.

Once again you are making assumptions. The VS was perfectly normal until their emotional outburst. Being irrational is one thing, and quite reasonable to a certain extent under the circumstances. What is so egregious is no person would ever reach their conclusions barring a loss of brain function. They have see for themselves Cerberus could not be behind these attacks, yet not only fault them for no reason but deem it fit to call Shepard a traitor? You completely ignored my prior post citing if we followed along with VS. They are claiming Cerberus is attacking themselves.

This is not confusion, this is sheer incompetency.

JKoopman wrote...

*snip*

Sums up Horizon perfectly.

I don't know how many times I have to say this.

THIS IS NOT A ****ING THREAD TO **** ABOUT THE VS!

But since you insist on derailment:

THEY WERE STUNG IN ****ING PLAIN SIGHT, SURROUNDED BY OTHER WHO HAD BEEN STUNG. It is not just insinuated that they were placed in a pod and moved toward the ship IT IS PRETTY. ****ING. OBVIOUS. They didn't 'fall behind some crates and then get ignored by the Collectors, they were probably right behind Lilith and the others in the group for loading onto the Collector ship. I always assumed that they were able to break out after the Collector ship left and the stasis field was powered off.

Remember, Ash has received a genetic upgrades package as part of her Alliance service. Strength is enhanced. Kaidan is one of the most powerful biotics in the Alliance, can't see any reason why either of them wouldn't have been able to break out. That means they were trapped, with a limited view of the surrounding area, trying to figure out what the hell was going on.

Cerberus have proven themselves more than capable of highly illogical moves in the past. They have attacked Alliance installations, and even turned an early colony on Chasca into husks. For the VS, a surprise attack on a colony might be something the Reapers instigated, but it might equally be one of Cerberus' stupid plans.

No person would ever reach that conclusion barring loss of brain functions? Congratulations, I didn't realise you were an expert on tactical and strategic analysis and the way in which soldiers are taught these things. The VS was trying to consider all the possibilities. On one hand, the VS has NEVER encountered the Collectors before (few humans have). On the other, the VS HAS encountered plenty of Cerberus experiments. Cerberus has ****ed around with Reaper tech and using alien soldiers as shock troopers before. These brown things that are wondering around could be the next generation of Cerberus experimentation.

The VS has to weigh up a thousand different scenarios, take all the facts into account and try to hit on the right one. TEAMS of military analysts regularly struggle to do this, using far more information than the Vs had available.

So, in other words, stop assuming that just because YOU, in your almight meta-gaming position, with all the facts at your fingertips, could make the right call. Start picturing the situation through the highly limited scope that the VS had available.

[AVPen]

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turnsto leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

You sir just won the Internet for the day. 

Made Nightwing wrote...
I don't know how many times I have to say this.

THIS IS NOT A ****ING THREAD TO **** ABOUT THE VS!
snip......................................................................................................................................

And no offense intended, but you are making a TON of assumptions and speculations based on things that are just NOT presented in the game to the players.

The truth is, we honestly have no idea whatsoever as to how the VS managed to escape the stasis fields of the Collectors and apart from recieving an explanation in ME3, the only logical excuse we the players are given is "Plot Convinence" - the writers needed the VS on Horizon when the Collectors attacked, but they needed him/her to be there at the end of the mission for the purposing of telling Shepard off and essentually "break" the relationship established in the first game, in order for the VS to not join Shepard's squad in ME2 so that he/she would be present in ME3. In pursuing those goals to the plot, however, the writers created a giant plot hole as to how the VS managed to escape the Collectors stasis field's effects, something that is never explained or expanded upon in the entirety of ME2.


Anyway... on to the topic of this thread:

Should my Shepard - having tried his best to explain his situation to the VS on Horizon, how he was only working with Cerberus to stop the Collectors and Reapers and that he was no traitor to the Alliance or Council - have to work to regain the trust of the VS in ME3?
No, absolutely not.

Should the VS - having called my Shepard a traitor, saying that Shepard is a manipulated "changed" man who's abandoned his loyalty to the Alliance and the Council in favor of a terrorist organization that he "owes", that he'll never work with Shepard to stop the Collectors even when Garrus is right in front of him/her saying that they're ignoring the real threat - have to regain the trust of my Shepard?
Hell f***ing yes!

Modifié par AVPen, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:02 .

[Made Nightwing]

AVpen wrote

Made Nightwing wrote...
I don't know how many times I have to say this.

THIS IS NOT A ****ING THREAD TO **** ABOUT THE VS!
snip......................................................................................................................................

And no offense intended, but you are making a TON of assumptions and speculations based on things that are just NOT presented in the game to the players.

The truth is, we honestly have no idea whatsoever as to how the VS managed to escape the stasis fields of the Collectors and apart from recieving an explanation in ME3, the only logical excuse we the players are given is "Plot Convinence" - the writers needed the VS on Horizon when the Collectors attacked, but they needed him/her to be there at the end of the mission for the purposing of telling Shepard off and essentually "break" the relationship established in the first game, in order for the VS to not join Shepard's squad in ME2 so that he/she would be present in ME3. In pursuing those goals to the plot, however, the writers created a giant plot hole as to how the VS managed to escape the Collectors stasis field's effects, something that is never explained or expanded upon in the entirety of ME2.


Anyway... on to the topic of this thread:

Should my Shepard - having tried his best to explain his situation to the VS on Horizon, how he was only working with Cerberus to stop the Collectors and Reapers and that he was no traitor to the Alliance or Council - have to work to regain the trust of the VS in ME3?
No, absolutely not.

Should the VS - having called my Shepard a traitor, saying that Shepard is a manipulated "changed" man who's abandoned his loyalty to the Alliance and the Council in favor of a terrorist organization that he "owes", that he'll never work with Shepard to stop the Collectors even when Garrus is right in front of him/her saying that they're ignoring the real threat - have to regain the trust of my Shepard?
Hell f***ing yes!

Equally, no offense intended AVpen, but I like to think Bioware assumes that the players have a brain and can reach a logical conclusion with the facts presented. Assuming that the VS was ignored because they 'fell behind some crates' is spectacularly incorrect, as we SEE them fall out in the open. Now, once you start getting toward the middle of the colony, there are fewer people standing around in stasis. Given the time between the Collector attack and Shepard's arrival that disrupts the loading, it is logical to assume that the VS was loaded just behind Lilith and the other colonists in that area, and was transported toward the Collector ship.

It is then logical to assume that the stasis fields probably wore off when the Collector Ship came under fire from the GARDIAN turrets. This is about halfway through the fight with the Praetorian. VS has enough time to bust out of the pod, get their bearings, and head toward the sound of battle. They arrive to find a man that they thought was DEAD, wearing the uniform of the enemy.

Remember, Cerberus is not the good guy for the Alliance. They kidnap and murder Alliance personnel whenever is necessary. They instigate terrorist attacks, and experiment on humans and aliens alike for whatever project they're working on. More than likely that the VS had to fight Cerberus cells during the time between ME1 and 2.

So yeah, I believe they were justified in calling you a traitor. But I also believe that Shepard needed to work with Cerberus. But to the VS, you are working with the IMMEDIATE threat. Even Garrus doesn't have that much credibility. Cerberus has been known to contract jobs to outside forces occasionally.

I don't feel it's a case of the VS owing Shepard, or Shepard owing the VS. I think both sides need to look at the situation, agree that they both screwed up, and move on.

Modifié par Made Nightwing, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:23 .

[ZeroDragon980]

 @ Made Nightwing

It did seem like that conversation was put there to make the player think about the other LIs in ME2, or at least whether or not you wanted to stick with the VS if they were a LI in ME1. I have a shepard for each LI from ME1, and shepards for each of the LIs in ME2, but that is the choice I made regardless of the Horizon incident.

I am sure Bioware is aware that players have brains, but they are also aware that not everyone is going figure it all out the same. There needs to be enough hints put into place for everyone to come to the same conclusion. Besides wasn't the VS frozen into place while starting to run in what looked like a walking path between two buildings? I never saw any codex entry or heard any dialog pertaining to the length of time the stasis was active. Any number of things could have made the stasis deactiveate. She did rip the bug off her neck just as it stung her, so maybe she didn't get the "full" dose. But again there is still not enough evidence to support any one point of view as "fact".
Concerning the topic of this thread I already posted what I thought could work. 

Modifié par ZeroDragon980, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:37 .

[Goneaviking]

Bah, I think both parties should feel crappy about the fight.

Shepard botched his persuasion check and just made himself look like a tool working for a group that he (probably) knew from ME1 was a terrorist group because they brought him back to life and told him they wanted to go after the same enemies.

VS was acting on faulty intel, she couldn't know for sure that Shepard had really died as opposed to simply gone AWOL, she couldn't know that he'd tried to find her when he became active again and couldn't know about Cerberus' role in fighting off the Collectors as she was paralysed somewhere off to the side and didn't see anything more important than paralysing bugs. On the contrary she's investigating rumours that Shepard has signed on with known terrorists whose activities seem to have become even nastier and more provocative in the two years that Shep spent being a corpse.

Both sides have reason to feel cut, and both sides probably feel crappy about the outcome of the confrontation.

Anyway it'll take more than one cut scene to work out the differences between the two of them and they should both do a bit of apologising in the way of it.

Here's what I'd like:
*Good character reference at trial
*Conversation where they talk about what happened, they can either accept each other's apologies or antagonise each other some more depending on Shep's choices
*Crisis where one party (I'd prefer VS but wouldn't mind overmuch if it were the other way around) saves the other's life (like post mission explosion suggested earlier in thread)
*Two person mission, something in the vein of Kasumi's heist where the two spectres (or spectre and drop out) have a particular mission they need to do together and have the chance to relate on a few small points during.

Anyway, I'd like the option for a convincing reconciliation because life's too short to carry a grudge. It'd also be nice if the reconciliation wasn't mandatory, for the sake of those who just can't bring themselves to forgive.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:53 .

[omghelpcmonahhh]

 i don't like ashley, she was so mean on that one mission, i don't like her anymore.


i hope she dies in mass effect 3.    i should have saved kaiden, but apparently he is the same way.


i guess i just have to try to get her killed in Mass Effect 3, she shouldn't have been so nasty with me.


jk.      anyway, i don't like her personality in ME2

Modifié par omghelpcmonahhh, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:55 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Made Nightwing wrote...

I don't know how many times I have to say this.

THIS IS NOT A ****ING THREAD TO **** ABOUT THE VS!

But since you insist on derailment:

No, it is a thread to discuss your opinion of them and subsequent revival of trust. I stated why many of my Shepards would be weary of doing so based upon their poor reaction on Horizon. You dislike this and sparked a debate, wherein I bolstered my position and you now see fit to go on a tirade, all caps no less.

THEY WERE STUNG IN ****ING PLAIN SIGHT, SURROUNDED BY OTHER WHO HAD BEEN STUNG. It is not just insinuated that they were placed in a pod and moved toward the ship IT IS PRETTY. ****ING. OBVIOUS. They didn't 'fall behind some crates and then get ignored by the Collectors, they were probably right behind Lilith and the others in the group for loading onto the Collector ship. I always assumed that they were able to break out after the Collector ship left and the stasis field was powered off.

Alright, show me. Where is the scene depicting this? If they were brought behind Lilith, how did they not only escape the pod but fight through a wave of Collectors prior to abruptly appearing "behind some crates?" See, you have absolutely nothing and are making rather bold and baseless assumptions. Now before you retort about not having to see everything or provide some example to the contrary. What you have described is significant to the lore and to our understanding of the events as they unfolded. It is as much a requirement for this to be on full display as was Mordin handing us the plot device (from his ass.) By not having presented this, we cannot determine anything you said happened. The theory is simply that, a theory, with no greater relevance than people who argue Shepard's body could have survived impact with a planet yet have no information to support it.

Remember, Ash has received a genetic upgrades package as part of her Alliance service. Strength is enhanced. Kaidan is one of the most powerful biotics in the Alliance, can't see any reason why either of them wouldn't have been able to break out. That means they were trapped, with a limited view of the surrounding area, trying to figure out what the hell was going on.

An interesting contradict, in one instance you claim they were dragged away along with the colonists and escaped, which would suggest they saw what the Collectors do in their entirely, You then cite they have an obscured view. So which of the two would it be? Furthermore both scenarios bode a conundrum, how did they conveniently reach Shepard at the conclusion of Horizon? If they were so disoriented and confused as you continue to perpetuate. How did they fight though since the colony was littered with Collectors? Remember, the Collectors primary target was VS. I would build an argument pertaining to them guarding VS however they seemed to have forgotten about them regardless of the scenario. So we will just maintain it was poor writing.

Cerberus have proven themselves more than capable of highly illogical moves in the past. They have attacked Alliance installations, and even turned an early colony on Chasca into husks. For the VS, a surprise attack on a colony might be something the Reapers instigated, but it might equally be one of Cerberus' stupid plans.

... really? Your defense for VS and Horizon is actually Cerberus may in fact be this mind numbingly incompetent as to attack themselves? Well alright then... They are in possession of a Mountain for a warship, abduct colonies and then send in their one number field expert to kill them all before completion. We can just disregard Shepard rescueing half the colony. Yep, all makes perfect sense.

No person would ever reach that conclusion barring loss of brain functions? Congratulations, I didn't realise you were an expert on tactical and strategic analysis and the way in which soldiers are taught these things. The VS was trying to consider all the possibilities. On one hand, the VS has NEVER encountered the Collectors before (few humans have). On the other, the VS HAS encountered plenty of Cerberus experiments. Cerberus has ****ed around with Reaper tech and using alien soldiers as shock troopers before. These brown things that are wondering around could be the next generation of Cerberus experimentation.

I do not have to be since any human with proper brain function would not make the conclusions the VS did. Most do not adhere to logic suggesting 'enemy' organizations attack themselves. No, they were pretty adamant on a single possibility; Cerberus is involved and thus undeniably everything their fault. Your squad mates even blatantly state they are blinded by hatred for Cerberus, and no Miranda is only one of them; Zaeed makes a remark about even Garrus, who is their former colleague reprimands them for not seeing the bigger picture. They refuse to listen to any alternative where Cerberus is not not to blame to such an extent when offered an opportunity to board the Normandy instead of agreeing under the pretense of completing their mission to collect data and reaffirming they will not join Cerberus. VS sees fit to call Shepard a traitor and storm off in a huff. One would imagine they could afford the (wo)man who was their former Commander, possible lover, someone they mutinied with and who just rescued their lives, ten minutes.

The VS has to weigh up a thousand different scenarios, take all the facts into account and try to hit on the right one. TEAMS of military analysts regularly struggle to do this, using far more information than the Vs had available.

No, this is what VS should of done. What actually happens is they fail miserly by virtue of their petulant anti-Cerberus rant, ignore any alternative possibility, disregarding their actual assignment in process.

So, in other words, stop assuming that just because YOU, in your almight meta-gaming position, with all the facts at your fingertips, could make the right call. Start picturing the situation through the highly limited scope that the VS had available.

Pot meet kettle.

I am asking for fact. You on the other hand continuously seem to provide only those aforementioned assumptions. While people may have been angry, felt betrayed or any number of emotions. Most, especially trained soldiers, would not fall into a childish rant, spew absolute nonsense for no adequately explained reason, completely ignore any alternative scenario beyond faulting an organization they vehemently despise and ultimately not allow their former Commander even five minutes to explain despite everything they have been through. Likewise, they would also have the good sense not to think organizations attack themselves but now I am just reiterating.
-----------

On the actual topic, I suppose I shall repeat my earlier preference. They need to rebuild lost trust with Shepard, challenging his/her command, while an intriguing possibility, is counterproductive as the Normandy will be Shepard's regardless of the logo on the haul. Frankly, I would rather they not dwell on the past, the Reapers have arrived and the primary concern ought to be our imminent destruction if we do not thwart them. The dialogue exchange are liable to hastily become tired and redundant if Horizon, Cerberus and everything is frequently reiterated. Put bluntly though, I would sooner place Miranda, Garrus or Jacob in command rather then either Ashley or Kaidan. Say what you will about the cheerleader but when push came to shove, she chose Shepard over TIM, whereas VS chose the Alliance when the identical choice came up.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 18 juillet 2011 - 01:46 .

[Nozybidaj]

marshalleck wrote...

I think Shepard should prove he or she is still loyal to them, not the other way around. They weren't the ones who who mysteriously turned up two years after supposedly dying, working for a terrorist organization.

This.  Ash/Kaidan were about the only two people who came back in ME2 and acted in a way that even resembled their ME1 persona (well maybe Garrus too).  Shep should be the one regaining their trust not the other way around.

Malanek999 wrote...
Well actually the Collectors targetted Horizon specifically because the VS was there. Cerberus deliberately released intel which the collectors used to discover that. But Cerberus was not doing the abduction and was actually trying to stop it.

They were?  I thought the end made it pretty clear it was never about stoping the Collectors from abducting humans, the entire mission from the start was about TIM getting his hands on the base.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 18 juillet 2011 - 02:07 .

[AVPen]

Made Nightwing wrote...
Equally, no offense intended AVpen, but I like to think Bioware assumes that the players have a brain and can reach a logical conclusion with the facts presented. Assuming that the VS was ignored because they 'fell behind some crates' is spectacularly incorrect, as we SEE them fall out in the open. Now, once you start getting toward the middle of the colony, there are fewer people standing around in stasis. Given the time between the Collector attack and Shepard's arrival that disrupts the loading, it is logical to assume that the VS was loaded just behind Lilith and the other colonists in that area, and was transported toward the Collector ship.

It is then logical to assume that the stasis fields probably wore off when the Collector Ship came under fire from the GARDIAN turrets. This is about halfway through the fight with the Praetorian. VS has enough time to bust out of the pod, get their bearings, and head toward the sound of battle. They arrive to find a man that they thought was DEAD, wearing the uniform of the enemy.

Remember, Cerberus is not the good guy for the Alliance. They kidnap and murder Alliance personnel whenever is necessary. They instigate terrorist attacks, and experiment on humans and aliens alike for whatever project they're working on. More than likely that the VS had to fight Cerberus cells during the time between ME1 and 2.

Again... those are all assumptions and speculations that have no evidence, information, or fact of ever occuring in the story because they were not presented to the player in the ME games. I also believe that Bioware respects the intellegence of its gamers (for the most part), but the things you are describing are not facts, but your own opinion of what you believe occured after the VS was stung by the seeker swarm (in effect, it's the equivalent of fanfiction trying to explain something that the writers chose not reveal to viewers of a story).

Made Nightwing wrote...

I don't feel it's a case of the VS owing Shepard, or Shepard owing the VS. I think both sides need to look at the situation, agree that they both screwed up, and move on.

Ok... how the heck did my Shepard "screw up" in this situation? He stated the facts and his situation as they were to the VS, only for the VS to angrily accuse him of numerous things that my Shepard knew he was not and took off in a huff.

For references sake, here's an exact copy of the dialogue my canon Shepard had with Kaidan on Horizon:

Kaidan: "I thought you were dead, Commander. We all did...."
Shepard: "It's been too long, Kaidan. How have you been?"
Kaidan: "Is that all you have to say? You show up after two years and act like nothing has happened. I would've followed you anywhere, Commander! Thinking you were gone, it was like losing a limb.... Why didn't you try to contact me? Why did you let me you were alive?!"
Shepard: "Not my choice. I spent the last two years in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me."
Kaidan: ".... You're with Cerberus now.... Garrus too? I can't believe the reports were right."
Garrus: "Reports? You mean you already knew?"
Kaidan: "Alliance intel thought Cerberus might be behind the missing  human colonies. I got a tip this colony might be the next one to get hit. Anderson stonewalled me, but there were rumors you weren't dead, that you were working for the enemy. "
Shepard: "Building the defense towers was just a cover story. The Alliance sent you here to investigate me, didn't they?"
Kaidan: "I was here for Cerberus! You were just a rumor. I wanted to believe you were alive, but I never expected anything like this.... You've turned your back on everything we stood for!"
Shepard: "Kaidan, you know me, you know that I'd only do this for the right reason. You saw it yourself. The Collectors are targeting human colonies and they're working with the Reapers."
Kaidan: "I want to believe you, Shepard, but I don't trust Cerberus. They could be using the threat of a Reaper to manipulate you. What if they're behind it? What if they're working with the Collectors?"
Garrus: "Damn it, Kaidan, you're so focus on Cerberus that you're ignoring the real threat!"
Shepard: "You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of facts."
Kaidan: "Maybe.... or maybe you feel like you owe Cerberus because they saved you... maybe you're the one who's not thinking straight... You've changed. But I still know where my loyalties lie. I'm an Alliance soldier, always will be. I've got to report back to the Citadel, they can decide if they believe your story or not..."
Shepard: "I could really use someone like you in my crew, Kaidan. It'll be just like old times."
Kaidan: "No it won't, I'll never work for Cerberus. Goodbye, Shepard.... be careful."


Now tell me, how in that exact conversation listed above - using dialogue supplied directly from Bioware themselves, who wrote the game and who create all the replies that Shepard is capable of giving to other characters - did Shepard "screw up" his encounter with Kaidan of Horizon? <_<

Modifié par AVPen, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:23 .

[Arppis]

Sheppard-Commander wrote...

Well, I have issue with your Shepard. It seems he has lost his sack. Even if you regain your Spectre status, when was the last time you heard Shepard address a council member in such a subordinate manner? And my Renegade/former Spectre sure as hell wont be kissing Udina's ass like that.

Udina is a councilor, not an Admiral. Him barking orders at Shepard with what to do with (presumably) now a ship that is Alliance property doesnt jive. It also should be mentioned that the SR2 became Shepard's property at the end of ME3.

While not inaccurate or anything...From those conversation I got the strong urge to beat Kaidan and Vega.

Good thing we don't HAVE to play as renegade Shepard and we can be more diplomatic.

[Estelindis]

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. 

Honestly, given this beginning, everything that follows reads to me like Anderson is trolling the VS massively.  Not to be funny, but he could've told the VS these things before the mission instead of keeping them in the cold.  I expect the VS would have liked to know.  Of course they reacted emotionally to seeing Shepard alive and working with Cerberus.  They would have been more prepared to deal with it if Anderson had filled them in on what he already knew.  Instead, both Shepard and Ashley/Kaidan are being used by Anderson and the Illusive Man on Horizon, with the colonists as innocent fallout.  The whole situation is unspeakably morally repugnant and the one time I really felt let down by Anderson.

[Iakus]

[quote]AVPen wrote...

For references sake, here's an exact copy of the dialogue my canon Shepard had with Kaidan on Horizon:

Kaidan: "I thought you were dead, Commander. We all did...."
Shepard: "It's been too long, Kaidan. How have you been?"
Kaidan: "Is that all you have to say? You show up after two years and act like nothing has happened. I would've followed you anywhere, Commander! Thinking you were gone, it was like losing a limb.... Why didn't you try to contact me? Why did you let me you were alive?!"[/quote]

Here Kaidan has a point.  This is an awful response form Shepard.  Particularly if  he's a friend or LI.

[quote]
Shepard: "Not my choice. I spent the last two years in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me."
Kaidan: ".... You're with Cerberus now.... Garrus too? I can't believe the reports were right."[/quote]

Stupidest.  Response.  Ever.

A renegade interrupt should have been put here:  ::facepalm:: "Yes, Kaidan, the super-secret human-advancement-at-any-cost quasi-terrorist organization has expanded its recruitment to include turians.  And Garrus, knowing full well what we encountered when I personally stormed several Cerberus bases and gunned down their operatives, decided to join up.  Brilliant deduction!  You're a good kid, you know that?"

[quote]
Garrus: "Reports? You mean you already knew?"
Kaidan: "Alliance intel thought Cerberus might be behind the missing  human colonies. I got a tip this colony might be the next one to get hit. Anderson stonewalled me, but there were rumors you weren't dead, that you were working for the enemy. "
Shepard: "Building the defense towers was just a cover story. The Alliance sent you here to investigate me, didn't they?"
Kaidan: "I was here for Cerberus! You were just a rumor. I wanted to believe you were alive, but I never expected anything like this.... You've turned your back on everything we stood for!"[/quote]

Hello?  Saved a colony here.  Well, part of it, anyway.  This is the first time they've failed to leave without taking the entire colony.  If Cerberus was behind this, why are we talking?  Why aren't you in the way to an underground lab somewhere?  Oh, by the way, here's a recording of Freedom's Progress.  A quarian there named Veetor managed to get some footage.  See if you can contact Tali.  She'll verify its authenticity.

[quote]
Shepard: "Kaidan, you know me, you know that I'd only do this for the right reason. You saw it yourself. The Collectors are targeting human colonies and they're working with the Reapers."[/quote]

Remember all those bases I destroyed?  Yeah, Cerberus and I would need a really really good reason to work together.  Imminent end of the galaxy fits.

[quote]
Kaidan: "I want to believe you, Shepard, but I don't trust Cerberus. They could be using the threat of a Reaper to manipulate you. What if they're behind it? What if they're working with the Collectors?"
Garrus: "Damn it, Kaidan, you're so focus on Cerberus that you're ignoring the real threat!"

"And that's exactly why I need people I can trust watching my back.  I don't trust Cerberus or the Illusive Man.  But for the moment, the Reapers are the bigger threat."

[quote]
Shepard: "You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of facts."[/quote]

Weaksauce, Shepard, I like my response better.  Cerberus does have a pretty horrific history.

[quote]
Kaidan: "Maybe.... or maybe you feel like you owe Cerberus because they saved you... maybe you're the one who's not thinking straight... You've changed. But I still know where my loyalties lie. I'm an Alliance soldier, always will be. I've got to report back to the Citadel, they can decide if they believe your story or not..."
Shepard: "I could really use someone like you in my crew, Kaidan. It'll be just like old times."
Kaidan: "No it won't, I'll never work for Cerberus. Goodbye, Shepard.... be careful."[/quote]

Another awful response from Shepard.

Replace with:  Joker and Dr Chakwas are with me, Kaidan.  You can speak to them if you'd like.  Have all of us changed?  I'm trying to stop the Reapers, and right now Cerberus is the only arrow I have in my quiver.  What would you have me do?  

[quote]
Now tell me, how in that exact conversation listed above - using dialogue supplied directly from Bioware themselves, who wrote the game and who create all the replies that Shepard is capable of giving to other characters - did Shepard "screw up" his encounter with Kaidan of Horizon? <_<
[/quote]


The writing for both Shepard and the VS was absolutely abysmal, designed with no other purpose than to cause an artificial rift between Shepard and the VS.  I put in my own thoughts on the dialogue.  Snark added for laughter to keep from crying.

[Iakus]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turnsto leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Sums up Horizon perfectly.

Yes.  Yes it does.  

Every time I read that I get a smile on my face.  Someone out there gets it.:happy:

[SafetyShattered]

I wouldn't mind if their was some tension between Ashley and shep but i'd be pissed if she was constantly scrutinizing all my actions. If she does that....she'll either be staying in the ship, or kicked out of my crew as soon a possible.

[Made Nightwing]

Goneaviking wrote...

Bah, I think both parties should feel crappy about the fight.

Shepard botched his persuasion check and just made himself look like a tool working for a group that he (probably) knew from ME1 was a terrorist group because they brought him back to life and told him they wanted to go after the same enemies.

VS was acting on faulty intel, she couldn't know for sure that Shepard had really died as opposed to simply gone AWOL, she couldn't know that he'd tried to find her when he became active again and couldn't know about Cerberus' role in fighting off the Collectors as she was paralysed somewhere off to the side and didn't see anything more important than paralysing bugs. On the contrary she's investigating rumours that Shepard has signed on with known terrorists whose activities seem to have become even nastier and more provocative in the two years that Shep spent being a corpse.

Both sides have reason to feel cut, and both sides probably feel crappy about the outcome of the confrontation.

Anyway it'll take more than one cut scene to work out the differences between the two of them and they should both do a bit of apologising in the way of it.

Here's what I'd like:
*Good character reference at trial
*Conversation where they talk about what happened, they can either accept each other's apologies or antagonise each other some more depending on Shep's choices
*Crisis where one party (I'd prefer VS but wouldn't mind overmuch if it were the other way around) saves the other's life (like post mission explosion suggested earlier in thread)
*Two person mission, something in the vein of Kasumi's heist where the two spectres (or spectre and drop out) have a particular mission they need to do together and have the chance to relate on a few small points during.

Anyway, I'd like the option for a convincing reconciliation because life's too short to carry a grudge. It'd also be nice if the reconciliation wasn't mandatory, for the sake of those who just can't bring themselves to forgive.

Perfectly sums up how most VS fans feel. Even has the option to opt out of reconciliation for those who don't want it.

[Made Nightwing]

AVPen wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
Equally, no offense intended AVpen, but I like to think Bioware assumes that the players have a brain and can reach a logical conclusion with the facts presented. Assuming that the VS was ignored because they 'fell behind some crates' is spectacularly incorrect, as we SEE them fall out in the open. Now, once you start getting toward the middle of the colony, there are fewer people standing around in stasis. Given the time between the Collector attack and Shepard's arrival that disrupts the loading, it is logical to assume that the VS was loaded just behind Lilith and the other colonists in that area, and was transported toward the Collector ship.

It is then logical to assume that the stasis fields probably wore off when the Collector Ship came under fire from the GARDIAN turrets. This is about halfway through the fight with the Praetorian. VS has enough time to bust out of the pod, get their bearings, and head toward the sound of battle. They arrive to find a man that they thought was DEAD, wearing the uniform of the enemy.

Remember, Cerberus is not the good guy for the Alliance. They kidnap and murder Alliance personnel whenever is necessary. They instigate terrorist attacks, and experiment on humans and aliens alike for whatever project they're working on. More than likely that the VS had to fight Cerberus cells during the time between ME1 and 2.

Again... those are all assumptions and speculations that have no evidence, information, or fact of ever occuring in the story because they were not presented to the player in the ME games. I also believe that Bioware respects the intellegence of its gamers (for the most part), but the things you are describing are not facts, but your own opinion of what you believe occured after the VS was stung by the seeker swarm (in effect, it's the equivalent of fanfiction trying to explain something that the writers chose not reveal to viewers of a story).

Made Nightwing wrote...

I don't feel it's a case of the VS owing Shepard, or Shepard owing the VS. I think both sides need to look at the situation, agree that they both screwed up, and move on.

Ok... how the heck did my Shepard "screw up" in this situation? He stated the facts and his situation as they were to the VS, only for the VS to angrily accuse him of numerous things that my Shepard knew he was not and took off in a huff.

For references sake, here's an exact copy of the dialogue my canon Shepard had with Kaidan on Horizon:

Kaidan: "I thought you were dead, Commander. We all did...."
Shepard: "It's been too long, Kaidan. How have you been?"
Kaidan: "Is that all you have to say? You show up after two years and act like nothing has happened. I would've followed you anywhere, Commander! Thinking you were gone, it was like losing a limb.... Why didn't you try to contact me? Why did you let me you were alive?!"
Shepard: "Not my choice. I spent the last two years in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me."
Kaidan: ".... You're with Cerberus now.... Garrus too? I can't believe the reports were right."
Garrus: "Reports? You mean you already knew?"
Kaidan: "Alliance intel thought Cerberus might be behind the missing  human colonies. I got a tip this colony might be the next one to get hit. Anderson stonewalled me, but there were rumors you weren't dead, that you were working for the enemy. "
Shepard: "Building the defense towers was just a cover story. The Alliance sent you here to investigate me, didn't they?"
Kaidan: "I was here for Cerberus! You were just a rumor. I wanted to believe you were alive, but I never expected anything like this.... You've turned your back on everything we stood for!"
Shepard: "Kaidan, you know me, you know that I'd only do this for the right reason. You saw it yourself. The Collectors are targeting human colonies and they're working with the Reapers."
Kaidan: "I want to believe you, Shepard, but I don't trust Cerberus. They could be using the threat of a Reaper to manipulate you. What if they're behind it? What if they're working with the Collectors?"
Garrus: "Damn it, Kaidan, you're so focus on Cerberus that you're ignoring the real threat!"
Shepard: "You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of facts."
Kaidan: "Maybe.... or maybe you feel like you owe Cerberus because they saved you... maybe you're the one who's not thinking straight... You've changed. But I still know where my loyalties lie. I'm an Alliance soldier, always will be. I've got to report back to the Citadel, they can decide if they believe your story or not..."
Shepard: "I could really use someone like you in my crew, Kaidan. It'll be just like old times."
Kaidan: "No it won't, I'll never work for Cerberus. Goodbye, Shepard.... be careful."


Now tell me, how in that exact conversation listed above - using dialogue supplied directly from Bioware themselves, who wrote the game and who create all the replies that Shepard is capable of giving to other characters - did Shepard "screw up" his encounter with Kaidan of Horizon? <_<

Just seeing that dialogue up there, damn, almost makes me weep There HAD to have been another way for BW to keep Ash/Kaidan out of ME2 without THAT.

But, to answer your question: I can't see a single one of Kaidan's options that is not justified. Shepard just says 'it's been too long, how have you been?' Considering that Kaidan was Shepard's lover/best friend on the Normandy, and has been absent for two years, this really just doesn't click. It might even make Kaidan think, 'Is this really Commander Shepard? Surely he'd have more to say than that?'

Also, remember that Kaidan has only heard rumours. Anderson hasn't told him jack about whether Shepard is really alive. As far as Kaidan is concerned, Shepard never died. Then comes the bit about Cerberus, again, Cerberus is the bad guy. They are more than capable of manipulating Shepard, and from Kaidan's perspective, that's more than likely.

Shepard comes up with the ****** poor line: You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of facts.

What facts? All Kaidan knows is that he's been stung and put in an artificial stasis field, then moved about by some big brown bug like creatures. Who could just as easily be Cerberus creations. Remember, it's a mad science organisation we're talking about. Their 'history', is not history for Kaidan. It's something he's had to actively fight against. Shepard's accusatory tone doesn't help matters.

So yeah, Shepard may have stated the facts, but he made zero effort to break them down to fit Kaidan's perspective. Kaidan doesn't cut corners, and to him, it looks like Shepard is either cutting them big time, or swerving onto the other side of the road.