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[Made Nightwing]

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote...

I don't know how many times I have to say this.

THIS IS NOT A ****ING THREAD TO **** ABOUT THE VS!

But since you insist on derailment:[/quote]

[quote] No, it is a thread to discuss your opinion of them and subsequent revival of trust. I stated why many of my Shepards would be weary of doing so based upon their poor reaction on Horizon. You dislike this and sparked a debate, wherein I bolstered my position and you now see fit to go on a tirade, all caps no less.[quote]

Negative, I don't have anything against people having different perspective on the VS. But this IS a thread to discuss revival of trust, no matter what the view is of the VS. What you did was to simply say that the dialogue my Shepard had simply showed my Shepard was submissive and a pansy. Never mind that what Shepard was saying had absolutely no impact on what was going on.


[quote] Alright, show me. Where is the scene depicting this? If they were brought behind Lilith, how did they not only escape the pod but fight through a wave of Collectors prior to abruptly appearing "behind some crates?" See, you have absolutely nothing and are making rather bold and baseless assumptions. Now before you retort about not having to see everything or provide some example to the contrary. What you have described is significant to the lore and to our understanding of the events as they unfolded. It is as much a requirement for this to be on full display as was Mordin handing us the plot device (from his ass.) By not having presented this, we cannot determine anything you said happened. The theory is simply that, a theory, with no greater relevance than people who argue Shepard's body could have survived impact with a planet yet have no information to support it.[quote]

I stuck with the established lore, but I will concede that it is just a theory.


[quote]Remember, Ash has received a genetic upgrades package as part of her Alliance service. Strength is enhanced. Kaidan is one of the most powerful biotics in the Alliance, can't see any reason why either of them wouldn't have been able to break out. That means they were trapped, with a limited view of the surrounding area, trying to figure out what the hell was going on.[/quote]

[quoteAn interesting contradict, in one instance you claim they were dragged away along with the colonists and escaped, which would suggest they saw what the Collectors do in their entirely, You then cite they have an obscured view. So which of the two would it be? Furthermore both scenarios bode a conundrum, how did they conveniently reach Shepard at the conclusion of Horizon? If they were so disoriented and confused as you continue to perpetuate. How did they fight though since the colony was littered with Collectors? Remember, the Collectors primary target was VS. I would build an argument pertaining to them guarding VS however they seemed to have forgotten about them regardless of the scenario. So we will just maintain it was poor writing.[quote]

Obscured view for the first part. All they could have seen was chitinous brown aliens, quite possibly the product of a Cerberus bio-engineering project (not my opinion, but a speculative option that would have made sense to the VS, considering the intel they had that Cerberus might have been behind the colony abductions. I still wonder why they didn't throw in an option for the dialogue to change depending on whether or not you had talked to Anderson and told him about the Collectors. For Anderson not to pass this on to the VS is stupidity incarnate) Also, by this time most of the Collectors are either dead, evacuating, or focused on fighting Shepard. The VS is no longer the priority, Shepard is.


[quote]Cerberus have proven themselves more than capable of highly illogical moves in the past. They have attacked Alliance installations, and even turned an early colony on Chasca into husks. For the VS, a surprise attack on a colony might be something the Reapers instigated, but it might equally be one of Cerberus' stupid plans.[/quote]

[quote]... really? Your defense for VS and Horizon is actually Cerberus may in fact be this mind numbingly incompetent as to attack themselves? Well alright then... They are in possession of a Mountain for a warship, abduct colonies and then send in their one number field expert to kill them all before completion. We can just disregard Shepard rescueing half the colony. Yep, all makes perfect sense.[quote]

It might not even be a case of Cerberus being incompetent. Instead, Cerberus could be playing the long con. Remember, they have assasinated pro-human politicians, just to replace them with ones who are more malleable. Hitting a colony with one head, while protecting it with another, is a possibility. With the intel the VS has been given by Anderson, 'It might be Cerberus', they have to consider this possibility first and foremost. If Cerberus had been responsible, they would have gotten away with half a colony's worth of potential recruits/test subjects/slaves, while trying to be Villains with Good Publicity, by sending in Shepard to save the other half. Again, it doesn't make much sense on close observation, but the VS is one person, operating on their own, trying to think everything through.


[quote]No person would ever reach that conclusion barring loss of brain functions? Congratulations, I didn't realise you were an expert on tactical and strategic analysis and the way in which soldiers are taught these things. The VS was trying to consider all the possibilities. On one hand, the VS has NEVER encountered the Collectors before (few humans have). On the other, the VS HAS encountered plenty of Cerberus experiments. Cerberus has ****ed around with Reaper tech and using alien soldiers as shock troopers before. These brown things that are wondering around could be the next generation of Cerberus experimentation.[/quote]

[quote]I do not have to be since any human with proper brain function would not make the conclusions the VS did. Most do not adhere to logic suggesting 'enemy' organizations attack themselves. No, they were pretty adamant on a single possibility; Cerberus is involved and thus undeniably everything their fault. Your squad mates even blatantly state they are blinded by hatred for Cerberus, and no Miranda is only one of them; Zaeed makes a remark about even Garrus, who is their former colleague reprimands them for not seeing the bigger picture. They refuse to listen to any alternative where Cerberus is not not to blame to such an extent when offered an opportunity to board the Normandy instead of agreeing under the pretense of completing their mission to collect data and reaffirming they will not join Cerberus. VS sees fit to call Shepard a traitor and storm off in a huff. One would imagine they could afford the (wo)man who was their former Commander, possible lover, someone they mutinied with and who just rescued their lives, ten minutes.[quote]

VS doesn't know ANY of the teammembers working with Shepard, except Garrus. Cerberus occasionally contracts out jobs to other parties, and for Garrus to work with them is surprising, but not unheard of. Refer to my above paragraph, where I suggest that Cerberus has shown themselves capable of working the long con. As to why the VS was over-emotional? I can only speculate on that, but I hope that there was a good reason. Something I hope Bioware throws in ME3. Maybe the VS had a grudge against Cerberus, compounded by the shock of seeing Shepard, (to use your words) their former Commander, possible lover, someone they mutinied with and trust above all others, come back and they're working with the enemy. Yes, there might be a good explanation, but the VS is understandbly outraged and upset by this. Maybe even humiliated slightly, if you were there former lover. Shepard states the facts, but he doesn't break them down enough. Instead of saying, 'Joker and Chakwas are with me too. Talk with them, get their perspectives', Shepard says 'Come with me, it'll be just like old times.' These are the old times that the VS has spent two years getting over.


[quote]The VS has to weigh up a thousand different scenarios, take all the facts into account and try to hit on the right one. TEAMS of military analysts regularly struggle to do this, using far more information than the Vs had available.[/quote]

[quote]No, this is what VS should of done. What actually happens is they fail miserly by virtue of their petulant anti-Cerberus rant, ignore any alternative possibility, disregarding their actual assignment in process.[quote]

You say anti-Cerberus like it's a bad thing. Like a good soldier, they focus their rage and frustration on the enemy. And to them, the enemy is Cerberus and the Reapers. From their POV, Cerberus is ALWAYS the bad guy. It's like if Al-Qaeda released a statement saying they are battling a coming apocalypse. It just doesn't make sense to the frontline soldier.


[quote]So, in other words, stop assuming that just because YOU, in your almight meta-gaming position, with all the facts at your fingertips, could make the right call. Start picturing the situation through the highly limited scope that the VS had available.[/quote]

[quote]Pot meet kettle.

I am asking for fact. You on the other hand continuously seem to provide only those aforementioned assumptions. While people may have been angry, felt betrayed or any number of emotions. Most, especially trained soldiers, would not fall into a childish rant, spew absolute nonsense for no adequately explained reason, completely ignore any alternative scenario beyond faulting an organization they vehemently despise and ultimately not allow their former Commander even five minutes to explain despite everything they have been through. Likewise, they would also have the good sense not to think organizations attack themselves but now I am just reiterating. [quote]

I agree, the burden of proof was on me. I am hampered by lack of Youtube access to be able to provide clips showing the VS was highly emotional from what they just went through. But the rant was anything but childish. Nor was it a rant. Somebody has posted the dialogue options around here, and while neither Shepard nor the VS has particularly shining dialogue, the VS doesn't sound  totally illogical.

[Dazaster Dellus]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Also, remember that Kaidan has only heard rumours. Anderson hasn't told him jack about whether Shepard is really alive. As far as Kaidan is concerned, Shepard never died. Then comes the bit about Cerberus, again, Cerberus is the bad guy. They are more than capable of manipulating Shepard, and from Kaidan's perspective, that's more than likely.

Shepard comes up with the ****** poor line: You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of facts.

What facts? All Kaidan knows is that he's been stung and put in an artificial stasis field, then moved about by some big brown bug like creatures. Who could just as easily be Cerberus creations. Remember, it's a mad science organisation we're talking about. Their 'history', is not history for Kaidan. It's something he's had to actively fight against. Shepard's accusatory tone doesn't help matters.

So yeah, Shepard may have stated the facts, but he made zero effort to break them down to fit Kaidan's perspective. Kaidan doesn't cut corners, and to him, it looks like Shepard is either cutting them big time, or swerving onto the other side of the road.

I have to agree with AVPen. Everything you are saying is based on assumptions and your personal praise of how the VS(more specifically Kaidan in this instance) is in your eyes .  Kaidan even says "I thought you were dead Commander!...." yet you say  "As far as Kaidan is concerned, Shepard never died". SMH!

Edit: Also, I Shepard stated the facts and asked VS to come back to the ship with him. VS was the one that turned down Shepards facts, reasoning and invites to learn more out of pure blinding hatred for Cerberus. Sorry Shep didn't drop everything to "break it down" to Kaidan or Ashley toddler style.

Modifié par Dazaster Dellus, 18 juillet 2011 - 10:58 .

[Varus Praetor]

m00nsh1ne wrote...

The whole trust thing will get resolved the first conversation you have with the VS. They would want something like that out of the way early so they can focus on more important things. And besides unless you were a major a-hole towards them on Horizon it didn't end as badly as some people make it out to be. And a lot of the tension was created from the shock of seeing somebody that the VS watch die and suddenly reappear. Nobody in their right mind can handle that like it was the most normal thing in the world.

Yeah, b/c the first thing I'd say to a loved one (if VS is a LI) who just came back from the dead is **** about who they've been hanging out with in the week since they were resurected....that's normal behavior.

[whywhywhywhy]

Badpie wrote...

I think we have bigger issues than a heart to heart about a five minute conversation where both people were jerks. I hope they touch on it, but I'd like it to be minimal. Like - okay that happened but whatever. Now let's kick some ass (and kiss and stuff, if the VS was your romance...ha.).

that's the wost solution

[whywhywhywhy]

laecraft wrote...

It's not that I don't trust VS to follow Alliance orders - quite the opposite, VS already proved that they're very good at following Alliance orders, even if it means betraying Shepard and humanity. Problem is, what if Alliance's orders interfere with my plans for saving the galaxy - again? It already happened in the past, and you know what VS did. What is the situation repeats itself, but this time, something crucial depends on VS? Would you really want a sleeper enemy on your ship? Someone who stabs you in the back in the vital moment?

Of course, many people would say to see it from VS perspective, and I can. The Reapers' agent, for example, who works with me, wins my trust, only to get closer to me and stab me in the back when everything is at stake, is indoctrinated. I can see why the agent is doing what he is, and the reasons behind his actions. That doesn't mean I have to rely on him when the galaxy is at stake.

Whatever VS does, I will always question their motives. Are they doing it to win my trust, to get closer to me? Are they trying to infiltrate my inner circle, only to undermine my efforts at fighting the Reapers? Are they going to sacrifice the Earth and the galaxy, because they're under orders to do something else, something more important than saving all life in the galaxy - like bring down Cerberus?

Simply put, my trust was already given, and it was broken. VS already had an opportunity to show that they have faith in Shepard and would follow him into hell itself. For some reason, every other former teammate was capable of overcoming everything to help Shepard. Only VS turns their back on Shepard and humanity in their darkest hour. No one else does.

Trust issues aside, I can't imagine what must happen for me to like VS again. Even if they testify on trial for Shepard, even if they save Shepard's life, even if they die making some heroic sacrifice - none of that can overwrite Horizon. I don't even dislike VS. I just don't want anything to do with VS. Let them serve somewhere on Alliance ship - far away from me.

See, VS is just like every other servicemen on the Alliance. They're one of those who wanted to bring Shepard into custody when the Collectors were harvesting human colonies. The little difference is, VS was slightly better informed - they knew about the Reapers, knew who Shepard was - so their choice was an informed betrayal, rather than simply "doing my job." Why would I feel anything for VS except for mild distrust? Fact is, a new character has much better chances at winning my interest.

Exactly.  I'll never use the VS unless forced to and even then I'll ust send her off to get killed then 2 man team it to the objective.  Heck I do that now with Jacob when I do play him but that's because I believe him to be a alliance Corsair spy.  And he doesn't look for a friendship with maleshep when a brother doesn't want to bond with another brother something's wrong with that (jacob) brother. 

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 19 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Made Nightwing wrote...
Trust is a two way street. VS has their own mission, there's a rumour going around that they're responsible for the destruction of the batarian orbital mirror system (mentioned in news flashes in ME2), something the batarians were cooking up to make life unpleasant for human colonies.

Let me guess she couldn't tell you that because he was working with a PRO-Human group to do the same thing.  Save human colonies from a threat only his threat was bigger. 

Sheperd: So you were acting like a ***** because of your loyalty mission ?
Ash: uhm huh.
Sheperd: Ash, What system is this mirror in ? Because I need to find a big Rock and attach boosters to it before we get there.

Made Nightwing wrote...
Liara also refuses to acompany Shepard, because she has her own commitments and responsibilities, some of them threaten galactic peace (aka Shadowbroker and his alliance with the Collectors). Wrex also turns down the opportunity to join you because he has his own goals to pursue. Liara is significantly better informed and Wrex just doesn't see the world the way a human soldier would. Anderson, your best friend and mentor, says he can't come because of his responsibilities to humanity and the Alliance.

Wouldn't exactly be around without Liara so she gets a little leeway but I yelled at her and banged Jack in retaliation.  But before you tell me how stupid I am calm down it's cool, she took me back.  Sheperd encouraged Wrex or at least put the idea in his head in me1, but check that greeting when he sees him.

Made Nightwing wrote...
Sacrificing Earth and all life in the Galaxy? Just to take down Cerberus? Whatever weed you're smoking, I want some. The VS is loyal to the Alliance, but they're also loyal to you. At the moment of truth at Horizon, they had a choice. Go the unshaky route with a man you trusted, but who has been dead and is now working with a terrorist organisation, or stay the course with the organisation that has been their way of life since they were very young. Unsurprisingly, they chose that which was familiar, just like you and I would have done.

I disagree that the Vs is loyal to you.

Made Nightwing wrote...
The other characters didn't have that kind of divided loyalty. Tali's team had just been killed on a mission which she doesn't think was important enough to justify their sacrifice, she was mildly angry at the Admiralty Board and had no problems serving with Shepard. Garrus had abandoned his C-Sec post, searching for something to believe in, when his old friend came and saved his life. To put it quite succintly, every other character had a black and white view that put Shepard squarely in the right. Ashley/Kaidan was slightly more complicated.

No Tali simply trusted you if you betray her at her hearing she lays into you and tells you exactly that. 

Garrus simply understands he questions you "but cerberus sheperd ?" Sheperd says something about needing people he trusts in response.

I disagree about the complication of the VS.

[Bnol]

whywhywhywhy wrote...
Exactly.  I'll never use the VS unless forced to and even then I'll ust send her off to get killed then 2 man team it to the objective.  Heck I do that now with Jacob when I do play him but that's because I believe him to be a alliance Corsair spy.  And he doesn't look for a friendship with maleshep when a brother doesn't want to bond with another brother something's wrong with that (jacob) brother. 

For a Paragon Shepard Jacob forms a friendship, even declaring that they will "get loud and spill some drinks on the Citadel" once the collectors are dealt with.

[whywhywhywhy]

Taritu wrote...

It's all BS. On the one hand after the events of ME1, yeah, anyone sane would wonder WTF Shepard is doing with Cerberus. Kotaku, etc...

OTOH, I don't recall the narrative ever giving me a choice to not work with Cerberus. Frankly, I'm about 50/50 that when I found out I was on a Cerberus base at the beginning, I would have just killed the Cerb ops, and made my escape on my own (when they turn their back to get on the shuttle, bang, bang.) Or when talking to Anderson, propose to go undercover and break Cerberus, or... any number of other opportunities. Shep was on a railroad, so people feel blamed by the VS for something that wasn't their choice. No way my Sole Survivor would have worked with Cerberus, even if he'd played along, he would have betrayed first opportunity.

The story never made much sense. Not so much that it was on rails (ME1 was on rails), but that it seemed to against everything an even slightly Paragon Shep stood for in the original game.

So, my lost trust isn't for the VS, it's for the Devs. Obviously I'll still play the game, I'm still a fan. But ME2's story was crap compared to ME1, and DA2's ending was crap, and if Bioware can't tell coherent stories, they're just another game developer, and not one with the best gameplay.

So the trust I want to see restored is my trust in the Bioware writing team. Tell an awesome story that feels coherent.

I agree almost completely but I still think Sheperd not the VS has been through a trauma. DEATH.  Yet Sheperd is in the unfortuned position of trying to defend his action, not to questioning but a attack.  So given that the VS has a long road ahead imo to regain trust and it should be prompted contiually from the VS.  Travel time across the galaxy isn't instant (storywise) plenty of time to get drama resolved.  Sheperd is not at fault at all.  The Horizon incident did suffer from bad writing.

[Iakus]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Exactly.  I'll never use the VS unless forced to and even then I'll ust send her off to get killed then 2 man team it to the objective.  Heck I do that now with Jacob when I do play him but that's because I believe him to be a alliance Corsair spy.  And he doesn't look for a friendship with maleshep when a brother doesn't want to bond with another brother something's wrong with that (jacob) brother. 

I'm not going to let one moment of really really bad writing wreck the character for me.  I'm going to wait and see what happens in ME3.

Though I really hope something is done to resolve the issue.

[Sepewrath]

lol restore trust, it has nothing to do with trust, people were just butt hurt that the VS dared to not bow down to Shepard.

[Hydrosphere]

The conversation in my mind needs to have the VS owning up their words and explain their side better. And to allow Shepard to rebuttal or agree etc. I was angry at the VS at Horizon. But I also realize it was a great scene and it made me respect the VS in some aspects.Too many people drink the Shepard koolaid. There also needs to be dialogue in there for those that romance them.

In short it needs to do a few things for me.

* Have the VS own up to their words. Some of it was uncall for due to shock/emotions.

* Have dialogue in there for those that romance Shepard. This could be to further the relationship or to destroy it.


You know I actually wouldn't mind a Friend/Rival system. One good thing about DA2.

[AcidGlow]

I will never trust the VS after what happened at Horizon they can get out of my way but if they get in my way i will have no problem shooting them down if it comes to that in ME3 whether i romanced them or not

[Malanek]

Sepewrath wrote...

lol restore trust, it has nothing to do with trust, people were just butt hurt that the VS dared to not bow down to Shepard.

Didn't the VS say something... like "First human spectre, Saviour of the Citadel. You're in the prescence of a god Delan, back from the dead." I don't recall anyone else in the game bowing down, kissing your feet, quite like that.

VS was just emotionally charged and very slow to appraise the situation. I would have thought that given what they witnessed in ME1 with the reapers and lack of trust they recieved from the council, that they would at least be prepared to keep an open mind. I think they would have realised pretty soon after horizon, that their accusations were wrong and their report should high light that.

[Sepewrath]

^Amazingly, that's not good enough, Whenever I see people talk about that situation, its always just about how the VS had no right to be angry at Shepard, how they should have just taken what Shepard said and accepted it without hesitation. And of course how the planned punishment in ME3 of instant death, is more than deserved. Come on, granted they were being emotional and when people are emotional, they don't think straight and they don't listen. But that in no way should impact how much you trust someone. "They have an attitude with me, I can never trust them again and I will kill them" That's a pretty big leap in my humble opinion.

[Ryzaki]

So them not trusting Shepard is okay but Shepard shouldn't dare do the same?

Okay then.

[Made Nightwing]

Ryzaki wrote...

So them not trusting Shepard is okay but Shepard shouldn't dare do the same?

Okay then.

The dichotomy is enchanting, isn't it?

[thatguy212]

When i read the title i thought this would be a thread about Shepard having to get the VS to trust him again, disappointed that its just another thread about the Horizon argument

[rapscallioness]

thatguy212 wrote...

When i read the title i thought this would be a thread about Shepard having to get the VS to trust him again, disappointed that its just another thread about the Horizon argument

Yeah.. well, I think the argument is about who betrayed the trust.

I betcha BW didn't see this coming. They were just looking for a way to get the LI out b4 some idiot gamer got them killed.

[rapscallioness]

Hey, it was our first lover's quarrel. Bound to happen. If BW does it right, it could add some nice depth to the relationship.

I do believe that was the point of the thread. How would you resolve it if you were writing it for BW?

[Made Nightwing]

thatguy212 wrote...

When i read the title i thought this would be a thread about Shepard having to get the VS to trust him again, disappointed that its just another thread about the Horizon argument

I truly meant it to be about re-establishing the bond between them. Haters gonna hate and derailers gonna derail.

[Made Nightwing]

rapscallioness wrote...

Hey, it was our first lover's quarrel. Bound to happen. If BW does it right, it could add some nice depth to the relationship.

I do believe that was the point of the thread. How would you resolve it if you were writing it for BW?

Spot on.

[rapscallioness]

@nightwing..wtf kinda text wall was that a few posts ago? Are you making some kinda artistic statement about the futile nature of this argument?

[Goneaviking]

rapscallioness wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

When i read the title i thought this would be a thread about Shepard having to get the VS to trust him again, disappointed that its just another thread about the Horizon argument

Yeah.. well, I think the argument is about who betrayed the trust.

I betcha BW didn't see this coming. They were just looking for a way to get the LI out b4 some idiot gamer got them killed.

That's my take on it, it would have been nice if there'd been some friction and hurt feelings but they'd parted company with mutual understanding.

What's so irritating about it is that it wasn't necessary to make them angry to keep them separate from the SR-2, VS is a soldier and can't just pick up sticks and go wherever the old boss wants to take them. They've got to go where the Alliance brass wants them, and the Alliance has every reason to want to keep Shepherd's team at arm's length for political reasons.

[Ryzaki]

Look I don't care if there's a kiss and make up scene with the VS as long as it's optional and my Shep can choose to be as frigid as Miranda was during the first few scenes. As long as I have a *choice* about being friends/just coworkers I'm happy.

[Iakus]

rapscallioness wrote...

Hey, it was our first lover's quarrel. Bound to happen. If BW does it right, it could add some nice depth to the relationship.

I do believe that was the point of the thread. How would you resolve it if you were writing it for BW?

If I were writing, some possibilities could be (roughly in order of seriousness):

1) the "Rumors" the VS heard were truly frightening and horrific.  Shepard had been committing terrible acts for Cerberus.  Stuff they simply don't want to believe, but Shepard's presence on Horizon somehow made these rumors a lot more credible.  In essence, TIM is deliberately driving a wedge between them so Shepard will be all teh more dependant on him. In ME3, Shepard learns of these rumors and is able to put them to rest (maybe)

2) The Alliance (or maybe the Council) for as yet unspecified reasons, have ordered the VS to not make contact with Shepard.  Once the initial shock of meeting Shepard wore off, the VS quickly fabricated a reason to get off Horizon asap In essence, the VS blew Shep off on purpose, but does not seriously doubt Shep's loyalty.  The reason behind the instructions will be made clear in ME3

3) Shepard was concussed form the praetorian fight.  The VS was still dazed from the stasis field.  Thus they both said really stupid things they both regret.  Both sides enjoy a nervous laugh after having a good sit-down and put it behind them

4) Shepard and /or the VS actually do have a control chip implanted in them at some point.  TIM manipulated the conversation (perhaps as a variation of #1) Use of the chip is judicious to preserve cognitive functions.  The chip will play a greater role in the conflict against Cerberus in ME3

5) TIM threatened the friends and family of the VS.  Back off from Shepard or else.  This will come to light as part of the "Cerberus is the enemy...again..." storyline in ME3

6) Whatever cybernetics were holding Shepard's brain together had a temporary short.  Hearing, mental processing, and speech centers were all affected.  Shep and VS will look back at this later and laugh.