1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

If I was Ashley, I sure wouldn't trust that Cerberus lapdog Shepard. I mean, faking his own death and then working for Cerberus for two years? W. T. Freakin' F. And then that whole "I was in a coma and Cerberus rebuilt me" song and dance. This isn't some bad sci-fi vid, Shepard, this is real life. I'm not an idiot. You faked your death so you could join Cerberus, and that just tells me that I never knew you at all. Everything about you is shady. So yeah, trust? Out the window.

Wait, this is a thread about the VS restoring trust with SHEPARD? *spittake* Shepard is the one who needs to eat crow here, what with working with CERBERUS and all. Shepard is the one whose "loyalty" is questionable.

Can I just say, I love your posts. So many people assume the meta-gaming position, with all the knowledge that Shepard has. You tackle it from the completely opposite side. It's refreshing, to say the least.

Meta knowledge or not, we have every right to be pissed at the VS for not even giving us a chance to explain.

Then again, I couldn't care less about the VS trusting me or me trusting them, the VS is garbage to me.

[Made Nightwing]

Zjarcal wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

If I was Ashley, I sure wouldn't trust that Cerberus lapdog Shepard. I mean, faking his own death and then working for Cerberus for two years? W. T. Freakin' F. And then that whole "I was in a coma and Cerberus rebuilt me" song and dance. This isn't some bad sci-fi vid, Shepard, this is real life. I'm not an idiot. You faked your death so you could join Cerberus, and that just tells me that I never knew you at all. Everything about you is shady. So yeah, trust? Out the window.

Wait, this is a thread about the VS restoring trust with SHEPARD? *spittake* Shepard is the one who needs to eat crow here, what with working with CERBERUS and all. Shepard is the one whose "loyalty" is questionable.

Can I just say, I love your posts. So many people assume the meta-gaming position, with all the knowledge that Shepard has. You tackle it from the completely opposite side. It's refreshing, to say the least.

Meta knowledge or not, we have every right to be pissed at the VS for not even giving us a chance to explain.

Then again, I couldn't care less about the VS trusting me or me trusting them, the VS is garbage to me.

Thank you for your completely original, and not in any way repetetive post about your opinion of the VS.

[Siansonea]

Zjarcal wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

If I was Ashley, I sure wouldn't trust that Cerberus lapdog Shepard. I mean, faking his own death and then working for Cerberus for two years? W. T. Freakin' F. And then that whole "I was in a coma and Cerberus rebuilt me" song and dance. This isn't some bad sci-fi vid, Shepard, this is real life. I'm not an idiot. You faked your death so you could join Cerberus, and that just tells me that I never knew you at all. Everything about you is shady. So yeah, trust? Out the window.

Wait, this is a thread about the VS restoring trust with SHEPARD? *spittake* Shepard is the one who needs to eat crow here, what with working with CERBERUS and all. Shepard is the one whose "loyalty" is questionable.

Can I just say, I love your posts. So many people assume the meta-gaming position, with all the knowledge that Shepard has. You tackle it from the completely opposite side. It's refreshing, to say the least.

Meta knowledge or not, we have every right to be pissed at the VS for not even giving us a chance to explain.

Then again, I couldn't care less about the VS trusting me or me trusting them, the VS is garbage to me.

We may not always agree, Zjar, but we can't ever truly be fighting as long as you have an Applejack avatar.

[King Gigglez]

Here is my question... what if you never trusted the VS to begin with?

[Siansonea]

Metopholus wrote...

Everyone of Shepard's former allies has cause to call him/her into question. yet only really Ash/Kaiden does? why? not Anderson.

He knows things Ashley/Kaidan doesn't. And doesn't share that info. Instead, he "stonewalls" them. Yeah, blame the VS.

not Hacket.

See Anderson.

not Garrus.

Ah, yes, Garrus. Who's he getting revenge on this week? Garrus only cares about "not following rules" and "settling scores". He doesn't give two shets about Cerberus.

not Tali.

Uh, yeah she does. On Freedom's Progress. But there's stuff to do. And then guess what? When Shep tries that Winning Smile routine, Tali refuses to go with him. It's only after Shepard rescues her from Haestrom (and Tali knows a lot more about what's going on) does she join up with Shepard. And when she does, she's an Epic B¡tch to Jacob and basically tells Shepard that Cerberus can eff off. Tali's finest moments, if you ask me.

they all might not trust Cerberus but they do trust Shepard. Bioware intentionally gave the player bad dialogue to explain things to the VS. because then it's easier to justify their over the top reactions. if there were no plot requirements the VS would likely have joined Shep. the situation on Horizon called for "caution" on their part. not "irrational anger".

I will put zero effort into "restoring trust" with the VS if it becomes a issue.

Shepard's Derp Moment on Horizon isn't the VS' fault. The VS, from their own point of view, is being perfectly rational. Shepard was the shiznit two years ago, but there's been a lot of water under the bridge, and the situation Looks Really Bad For Shepard. And Shepard's casual, devil-may-care attitude in the face of the VS' very real concerns about him being there with Cerberus only add to the problem.

[Siansonea]

Metopholus wrote...

I distinctly remember Tali saying 'I'm here for you. not for them" when asked to join on Freedom's Progress i got "i want to, but i can't". import bonus maybe but it doesn't change the fact that it happened. I'll give you Anderson. but Hacket? it's never stated that he know anything about Shepard's current activity other than he/she is alive and possibly working for Cerberus. i'm not going by what Anderson *might* have told him. only the facts that are present. if i'm wrong correct me.
also you didn't mention Bioware providing bad dialogue seemingly on purpose. how else can you explain it? again if the plot didn't require the VS to stay out of Shepard's squad i can't see them reacting the same way. the least they could do is sit down for five minutes and give Shep a little more time to explain everything.

i appreciate you taking the time to point out anything that i might be mistaken on. i don't want to carry anger unjustifiably. though it's unlikely i'll change my views on the matter stranger things have happened before.

BioWare most certainly gave Shepard Derpitis on Horizon on purpose. The story requirement was for Kaidan/Ashley to Go Away For Now, so the dialog was written so that they took issue with what Shepard was doing, and refused to join. It was the same for Tali, but because they were bringing her in later, it was a 'softer' refusal. But those are metagame considerations. The fact is, Shepard DID act the way he/she did on Horizon, and the VS wasn't having any of it. For good reason. Unfortunately, other than Tela Vasir and one or two other people in the game, almost no one calls Shepard on the beyond questionable decision to work with Cerberus. If Shepard can't see why people might not just automatically go "okay, Cerberus, whatever", then Shepard is stupid. Cerberus isn't Robin Hood and His Merry Men, they're murderers, and they torture people for "science". They murdered an Alliance Admiral. They're not the lovable rogues their Marketing department would like you to believe they are.

[Tommy6860]

Siansonea II wrote...


Uh, yeah she does. On Freedom's Progress. But there's stuff to do. And then guess what? When Shep tries that Winning Smile routine, Tali refuses to go with him. It's only after Shepard rescues her from Haestrom (and Tali knows a lot more about what's going on) does she join up with Shepard. And when she does, she's an Epic B¡tch to Jacob and basically tells Shepard that Cerberus can eff off. Tali's finest moments, if you ask me.

That isn't what happens on FP according to the script (and even moreso if Shep's save carried over more info from ME1). Tali doesn't even make a rejection of Shep's appearance with Cerberus as much as her cohorts do,  after acknowledging it is actually Shepard. Tali only refuses to go with Shep because she's on a mission that's more important than what Shep's mission is, and goes on to say (paraphrasing here) that she will see what happens in the future if they meet again (of which we know what happens).

Shepard's Derp Moment on Horizon isn't the VS' fault. The VS, from their own point of view, is being perfectly rational. Shepard was the shiznit two years ago, but there's been a lot of water under the bridge, and the situation Looks Really Bad For Shepard. And Shepard's casual, devil-may-care attitude in the face of the VS' very real concerns about him being there with Cerberus only add to the problem.

It isn't  Shep's fault either. S/he didn't ask to be reanimated and didn't have a choice who reanimated her/him. It is perfectly reasonable for Shep to do what s/he does after being revived to life after seeing the Council and they reject even the slightest notion that the Reapers really exist. Even the VS states they know they are real, but their loyalties lie elsewhere. Shep knows the real threat and since the Council abandoned the idea of a Reaper existence, it is perfectly reasonable for Shep to use or side with a faction that is after the same thing. Even then, during the whole of the game, Shep doesn't trust Cerberus making that clear in many dialogue events with her/his squadies and other NPCs. Shep also has the choice at the end of the SM to reject TIM's request regarding the Collector Home base.

I guess ME3 has a lot to resolve with its many fans and their varying ideas.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 21 juillet 2011 - 02:29 .

[Siansonea]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


Uh, yeah she does. On Freedom's Progress. But there's stuff to do. And then guess what? When Shep tries that Winning Smile routine, Tali refuses to go with him. It's only after Shepard rescues her from Haestrom (and Tali knows a lot more about what's going on) does she join up with Shepard. And when she does, she's an Epic B¡tch to Jacob and basically tells Shepard that Cerberus can eff off. Tali's finest moments, if you ask me.

That isn't what happens on FP according to the script (and even moreso if Shep's save carried over more info from ME1). Tali doesn't even make a rejection of Shep's appearance with Cerberus as much as her cohorts do,  after acknowledging it is actually Shepard. Tali only refuses to go with Shep because she's on a mission that's more important than what Shep's mission is, and goes on to say (paraphrasing here) that she will see what happens in the future if they meet again (of which we know what happens).

Shepard's Derp Moment on Horizon isn't the VS' fault. The VS, from their own point of view, is being perfectly rational. Shepard was the shiznit two years ago, but there's been a lot of water under the bridge, and the situation Looks Really Bad For Shepard. And Shepard's casual, devil-may-care attitude in the face of the VS' very real concerns about him being there with Cerberus only add to the problem.

It isn't  Shep's fault either. S/he didn't ask to be reanimated and didn't have a choice who reanimated her/him. It is perfectly reasonable for Shep to do what s/he does after being revived to life after seeing the Council and they reject even the slightest notion that the Reapers really exist. Even the VS states they know they are real, but their loyalties lie elsewhere. Shep knows the real threat and since the Council abandoned the idea of a Reaper existence, it is perfectly reasonable for Shep to use or side with a faction that is after the same thing. Even then, during the whole of the game, Shep doesn't trust Cerberus making that clear in many dialogue events with her/his squadies and other NPCs. Shep also has the choice at the end of the SM to reject TIM's request regarding the Collector Home base.

I guess ME3 has a lot to resolve with its many fans and their varying ideas.

Well, Shepard should fully understand other people's objection to seeing him with Cerberus, don't you think? Shepard should have said all sorts of things to the VS to ally their concerns. Instead, it was "It's been too long, how have you been?" REALLY SHEPARD. And expecting anyone to actually believe that Shepard was "rebuilt by Cerberus", well, that's just silly. Shepard shouldn't believe it either! I know I wouldn't. Waking up in a Cerberus facility, talking to nothing but Cerberus people, and being pretty much railroaded into deciding to work for the Illusive Man, it's all too pat, and Shepard was a fool to play along. Especially since Shepard later learns that the Illusive Man lured the Collectors to Horizon, and allowed Shepard to walk into the Collector's trap on the "disabled" Collector Ship. Yeah, I wouldn't take ANYTHING the Illusive Man says at face value, but what does Shepard do? Just go along with everything. Doesn't verify a thing. Doesn't tell TIM to get stuffed until the very end. I would have taken my chances with the Alliance and the Council after Freedom's Progress, and only AFTER getting stonewalled/dismissed by them would I even CONSIDER working with Cerberus. But Shepard falls in line like a good little boy, and is all hurt because the VS calls them on it? The VS is right, based on what they know. The VS doesn't know what happened on Freedom's Progress. The VS hasn't been debriefed by Anderson on Shepard's activities. The VS can only act on what they personally know and observe. And the appearances don't make Shepard's situation look like anything but a rogue agent working for terrorists. After Saren's betrayal of the Council, Shepard being with Cerberus would be particularly galling to me, and if I was Ashley/Kaidan, all sorts of things would be going through my mind. Is it indoctrination? Did Shiala's mindmeld thingie warp Shepard's mind somehow with Thorian mind voodoo? Is Liara controlling Shepard (never did trust that gal)? But "Shepard died and was brought back to life via heretofore unknown and seemingly magical resurrection technology and has good reasons and ample evidence that he is somehow not mentioning for working with Cerberus" would not be the first thing that comes to mind.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 21 juillet 2011 - 02:43 .

[Siansonea]

Metopholus wrote...

I'm a writer myself (not a good one mind you) so that's why the main reason i'm irked the writing here.i would have preferred Ash/Kaiden tell Shepard some horrible truth about Cerberus that he/she might not have known before. as it is i never got the impression they knew much more about Cerberus than most of Sheps team. it might not have bothered me so much if others called Shep out on the Cerberus thing like you mentioned. it would have been common then. the way they did it just really stuck out for me though.

my feelings haven't changed really. but to be fair my issue was Bioware's writing here. what the VS is angry about i totally beyond Shep/the player's control. so because he/she was involuntarily resurrected by Cerberus he/she now has to bend over backwards to "prove themselves"? i'll explain the facts but i'm not going to "apologize " for something that was totally out of my hands from the start. so no i won't be "restoring trust" with the VS beyond stating the facts to them.

Well, Ashley, Kaidan and Shepard ALL know that Cerberus killed Admiral Kahoku and tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the results, and lured the Alliance Marines into the thresher maw trap on Akuze in the first place. Cerberus later placed a distress beacon on another thresher maw nest on Edolus, resulting in the deaths of MORE Alliance Marines. Shepard and the VS also know that Cerberus was doing sick experiments on rachni and Thorian creepers on Binthu and Nepheron. And SHEPARD knows that Cerberus held Jack in captivity when she was a child, and even though he learns the gory details after Horizon, he should know that Cerberus' reputation is 100% abominable. That should make Shepard much more understanding when others don't immediately understand the necessity of Shepard's working with Cerberus. Especially gung-ho Alliance types like Alenko and Williams. Kaidan is the most Paragon of the squad mates in ME1, it would be VERY out of character for him to just shrug his shoulders when he sees Shepard working with Cerberus. And Ashley is extremely loyal to the Alliance, and you don't get much more anti-Alliance than Cerberus. The WTF factor of Shepard with Cerberus is HUGE, and it's bizarre that more people don't comment on it in the game.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 21 juillet 2011 - 03:22 .

[Agamo45]

I'm not interesting in earning back their trust. I'm saving the galaxy, they can either get behind me or otherwise get the hell out of my way.

[Siansonea]

Agamo45 wrote...

I'm not interesting in earning back their trust. I'm saving the galaxy, they can either get behind me or otherwise get the hell out of my way.

Yeah, because you don't need ALLIES or anything. You're just going to fight the Reapers all by yourself! You'll duke it out with them one at a time if you have to. Good luck with that.

[Made Nightwing]

Metopholus wrote...

Everyone of Shepard's former allies has cause to call him/her into question. yet only really Ash/Kaiden does? why? not Anderson. not Hacket. not Garrus. not Tali. they all might not trust Cerberus but they do trust Shepard. Bioware intentionally gave the player bad dialogue to explain things to the VS. because then it's easier to justify their over the top reactions. if there were no plot requirements the VS would likely have joined Shep. the situation on Horizon called for "caution" on their part. not "irrational anger".

I will put zero effort into "restoring trust" with the VS if it becomes a issue.

Yes, they do question him.

Garrus: But Cerberus, Shepard?
Shepard: I know their reputation, that's why I need you here. Someone I can trust. (paraphrased)

Tali has an even more hostile reaction. She states her  intentions toward Cerberus, RIGHT IN FRONT OF JACOB.

What is frustrating in this instance, is that Shepard doesn't say ANYTHING to the VS like what he says to Garrus and Tali to allay their fears.

[Agamo45]

I destroyed the Collectors while all Kaiden did was **** and moan about Cerberus. I think I can do without him.

[Siansonea]

Metopholus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Metopholus wrote...

I'm a writer myself (not a good one mind you) so that's why the main reason i'm irked the writing here.i would have preferred Ash/Kaiden tell Shepard some horrible truth about Cerberus that he/she might not have known before. as it is i never got the impression they knew much more about Cerberus than most of Sheps team. it might not have bothered me so much if others called Shep out on the Cerberus thing like you mentioned. it would have been common then. the way they did it just really stuck out for me though.

my feelings haven't changed really. but to be fair my issue was Bioware's writing here. what the VS is angry about i totally beyond Shep/the player's control. so because he/she was involuntarily resurrected by Cerberus he/she now has to bend over backwards to "prove themselves"? i'll explain the facts but i'm not going to "apologize " for something that was totally out of my hands from the start. so no i won't be "restoring trust" with the VS beyond stating the facts to them.

Well, Ashley, Kaidan and Shepard ALL know that Cerberus killed Admiral Kahoku and tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the results, and lured the Alliance Marines into the thresher maw trap on Akuze in the first place. Cerberus later placed a distress beacon on another thresher maw nest on Edolus, resulting in the deaths of MORE Alliance Marines. Shepard and the VS also know that Cerberus was doing sick experiments on rachni and Thorian creepers on Binthu and Nepheron. And SHEPARD knows that Cerberus held Jack in captivity when she was a child, and even though he learns the gory details after Horizon, he should know that Cerberus' reputation is 100% abominable. That should make Shepard much more understanding when others don't immediately understand the necessity of Shepard's working with Cerberus. Especially gung-ho Alliance types like Alenko and Williams. Kaidan is the most Paragon of the squad mates in ME1, it would be VERY out of character for him to just shrug his shoulders when he sees Shepard working with Cerberus. And Ashley is extremely loyal to the Alliance, and you don't get much more anti-Alliance than Cerberus. The WTF factor of Shepard with Cerberus is HUGE, and it's bizarre that more people don't comment on it in the game.

But when you say these things all i can think of is Boiware's lackluster writing. almost nobody questions Shep on Cerberus. and on Horizon they give Shep crap dialogue to explain it. they could just as easilly have given Shep the propper dialogue and had the VS understand and leave to go file their report. thus removing them for the remainder of the game. just seemed like an excuse to have tension to fit their "dark second chapter" vide for ME2. just like the changes to Liara's character.

Oh, you won't get any argument from me on this. The way BioWare wrote Shepard's lines on Horizon really makes me wonder if Shepard "came back wrong", like something out of "Pet Sematary" or something. Or that Miranda lied about him not having a control chip in his brain...

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

I'm not interesting in earning back their trust. I'm saving the galaxy, they can either get behind me or otherwise get the hell out of my way.

Yeah, because you don't need ALLIES or anything. You're just going to fight the Reapers all by yourself! You'll duke it out with them one at a time if you have to. Good luck with that.

Yes of course because the VS is the only one on Shep's squad. 

[PauseforEffect]

I don't doubt that Kaiden/Ashley will do something for Shepard that will make it harder for players to hate them in ME3. The fact that they're confirmed to be on the team that picks Shepard up from earth is proof that they'll be offering support for Shepard.
The relationship thing is a coin toss for me. Depending on how diplomatic Kaiden is written will determine whether I'm wishing for the drop-kick interrupt.

[Iakus]

[quote]Varus Praetor wrote...

Seriously?  There are people who actually consider "VS was mind controlled into being an ass" and "Shep just imagined they were an ass" as acceptable resolutions to the conflict?  
[/quote]

More like "the writing on Horizon was so bad I'd be willing to settle for that as an explanation" 

{quote]Having said that, I'm not sure that the conflict has to be "explained" away.  Why can't it just be resolved instead?  Would it be too inconceivable for the VS to say to Shepard "hey, I should have given you the benefit of the doubt in light of our history and your service.  I realize now that the Alliance was falling woefully short of its responsibilities to resolve the missing colonist issue."[/quote]

I don't know about explained away, but it does have to be dealt with in some way.  I'm not one of those advocating sending the VS out the airlock at the first opportunity.  But it does have to be addressed in a mature, grownup matter, not like petulant children, like on Horizon.  Or like some are acting right now. 

Modifié par iakus, 21 juillet 2011 - 04:58 .

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

If I was Ashley, I sure wouldn't trust that Cerberus lapdog Shepard. I mean, faking his own death and then working for Cerberus for two years? W. T. Freakin' F. And then that whole "I was in a coma and Cerberus rebuilt me" song and dance. This isn't some bad sci-fi vid, Shepard, this is real life. I'm not an idiot. You faked your death so you could join Cerberus, and that just tells me that I never knew you at all. Everything about you is shady. So yeah, trust? Out the window.

Wait, this is a thread about the VS restoring trust with SHEPARD? *spittake* Shepard is the one who needs to eat crow here, what with working with CERBERUS and all. Shepard is the one whose "loyalty" is questionable.

Which is another reason I dislike the Horizon scene so much.  My Shepard despises Cerberus every bit as much as the VS does.  If it would have smoothed things over, he's have

Handed over copies of every file he supplied to Jack,
Hand over every Lazarus Project document he could swipe,
Had Chakwas and Mordin run scans on him to verify his identity and show just what "extra parts" he has.
He'd have had the VS help herself to any Collector tissue and technology they could haul away,
Given copies of Veetor's rcordings (heck originals if they really wanted) of Freedom's Progress
Give recordings of every mission Shepard's been on, every scrap of information he's leaned about the Collectors,

All complete with a bow and a ribbon 

But no, Shepard, no matter how paragon, no matter how loyal to the Alliance or to the VS, just stands there like a doofus.  This is why the whole "How willing Shepard was working alongside Cerberus is up to the player"  is so laughable.  And why I think some sort of mind control is not entirely implausible.

[Iakus]

Metopholus wrote...

But when you say these things all i can think of is Boiware's lackluster writing. almost nobody questions Shep on Cerberus. and on Horizon they give Shep crap dialogue to explain it. they could just as easilly have given Shep the propper dialogue and had the VS understand and leave to go file their report. thus removing them for the remainder of the game. just seemed like an excuse to have tension to fit their "dark second chapter" vide for ME2. just like the changes to Liara's character.

Agreed, Bioware really put the concept of "kinder, gentler Cerberus" into overdrive to make them a more palatable group to work with.

But the real flaw here is Shepard doesn't give a good explanation on Horizon, and the VS doesn't stick around to demand one.  It's like the second act to a romantic comedy, only without the romance.  Or the comedy.

I wrote this on another thread, and easier way to get rid of the VS without having them freak out:

Ash:  I'm sorry Shepard.  I know you think you're doing the right thing here.  But I can't follow you this time.  I'm still an Alliance soldier, with duties and obligations I can't just put aside.  I have to report this to Anderson.  I'll tell him what I saw here.  And what you said about the Collectors.  Maybe he can get something done on a higher level.  In the meantime... be careful...  You know what the road to Hell is paved with, right?

Shepard:  Good intentions

Ash:  Exactly.  Take care, skipper.  Stay alive out there.  Someday soon I want to hear the whole story about what went on here.