1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Xarathox]

I have to call into question Ashley's loyalty to the Alliance here.

This is the same group that had railroaded her father and her, because of the stigma surrounding her grandfathers surrender to the turians. Hell, she wouldn't have received a promotion in the first place (let alone become a specter, if she really is one) if not for her roll during the events in ME1.

Her blind allegiance to a military that didn't give a rats ass about her is just...retarded.

[HTTP 404]

whats there to talk about? there's a freakin reaper invasion!

The only thing my Shepard would say to Ash is

Shepard:  soo we might not make it out alive.....

Ash:  what are you getting at?

Shepard:  Why don't you come up to my cabin...?

Ash:   Liara didn't want to sleep with you?

Shepard:  yeaaaah 

Ash:  alright

Shepard: Score!

Modifié par HTTP 404, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:31 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Siansonea II wrote...

Metopholus wrote...

I distinctly remember Tali saying 'I'm here for you. not for them" when asked to join on Freedom's Progress i got "i want to, but i can't". import bonus maybe but it doesn't change the fact that it happened. I'll give you Anderson. but Hacket? it's never stated that he know anything about Shepard's current activity other than he/she is alive and possibly working for Cerberus. i'm not going by what Anderson *might* have told him. only the facts that are present. if i'm wrong correct me.
also you didn't mention Bioware providing bad dialogue seemingly on purpose. how else can you explain it? again if the plot didn't require the VS to stay out of Shepard's squad i can't see them reacting the same way. the least they could do is sit down for five minutes and give Shep a little more time to explain everything.

i appreciate you taking the time to point out anything that i might be mistaken on. i don't want to carry anger unjustifiably. though it's unlikely i'll change my views on the matter stranger things have happened before.

BioWare most certainly gave Shepard Derpitis on Horizon on purpose. The story requirement was for Kaidan/Ashley to Go Away For Now, so the dialog was written so that they took issue with what Shepard was doing, and refused to join. It was the same for Tali, but because they were bringing her in later, it was a 'softer' refusal. But those are metagame considerations. The fact is, Shepard DID act the way he/she did on Horizon, and the VS wasn't having any of it. For good reason. Unfortunately, other than Tela Vasir and one or two other people in the game, almost no one calls Shepard on the beyond questionable decision to work with Cerberus. If Shepard can't see why people might not just automatically go "okay, Cerberus, whatever", then Shepard is stupid. Cerberus isn't Robin Hood and His Merry Men, they're murderers, and they torture people for "science". They murdered an Alliance Admiral. They're not the lovable rogues their Marketing department would like you to believe they are.

The point with Tali is she talks with him and doesn't flip out and call him a traitor.  And like you I applaud her stance on being their for Sheperd and not Cerberus.  Just like a few other people on the ship.

If Ash's rejection to joining was more like Tali's I doubt anyone would have a issue.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:03 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Metopholus wrote...

Everyone of Shepard's former allies has cause to call him/her into question. yet only really Ash/Kaiden does? why? not Anderson. not Hacket. not Garrus. not Tali. they all might not trust Cerberus but they do trust Shepard. Bioware intentionally gave the player bad dialogue to explain things to the VS. because then it's easier to justify their over the top reactions. if there were no plot requirements the VS would likely have joined Shep. the situation on Horizon called for "caution" on their part. not "irrational anger".

I will put zero effort into "restoring trust" with the VS if it becomes a issue.

Yes, they do question him.

Garrus: But Cerberus, Shepard?
Shepard: I know their reputation, that's why I need you here. Someone I can trust. (paraphrased)

Tali has an even more hostile reaction. She states her  intentions toward Cerberus, RIGHT IN FRONT OF JACOB.

What is frustrating in this instance, is that Shepard doesn't say ANYTHING to the VS like what he says to Garrus and Tali to allay their fears.

But despite that they are there for Sheperd they trust him.

[whywhywhywhy]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

If I was Ashley, I sure wouldn't trust that Cerberus lapdog Shepard. I mean, faking his own death and then working for Cerberus for two years? W. T. Freakin' F. And then that whole "I was in a coma and Cerberus rebuilt me" song and dance. This isn't some bad sci-fi vid, Shepard, this is real life. I'm not an idiot. You faked your death so you could join Cerberus, and that just tells me that I never knew you at all. Everything about you is shady. So yeah, trust? Out the window.

Wait, this is a thread about the VS restoring trust with SHEPARD? *spittake* Shepard is the one who needs to eat crow here, what with working with CERBERUS and all. Shepard is the one whose "loyalty" is questionable.

Which is another reason I dislike the Horizon scene so much.  My Shepard despises Cerberus every bit as much as the VS does.  If it would have smoothed things over, he's have

Handed over copies of every file he supplied to Jack,
Hand over every Lazarus Project document he could swipe,
Had Chakwas and Mordin run scans on him to verify his identity and show just what "extra parts" he has.
He'd have had the VS help herself to any Collector tissue and technology they could haul away,
Given copies of Veetor's rcordings (heck originals if they really wanted) of Freedom's Progress
Give recordings of every mission Shepard's been on, every scrap of information he's leaned about the Collectors,

All complete with a bow and a ribbon 

But no, Shepard, no matter how paragon, no matter how loyal to the Alliance or to the VS, just stands there like a doofus.  This is why the whole "How willing Shepard was working alongside Cerberus is up to the player"  is so laughable.  And why I think some sort of mind control is not entirely implausible.

This was exactly how I felt when I played the game 1st run through, it was very hard to play the game.  My Paragon Sheperd became Renegade but nothing I could do would end the hell it was to work with Cerberus.  And I don't like the dialog that states he's working for them or incinuates it, I think Sheperd should have been adamant about Cerberus Working for him and funding the mission only.  It wasn't said enough and lacked hostility.  Especially after learning of Horizon and the collector ship trap. 

If Sheperd knew it was a trap he could have looked to disabled the collector ship's engine/reactor core and had a Allied fleet show up to tug it away.  They could have gathered a lot of secrets that way.

HTTP 404 wrote...

whats there to talk about? there's a
freakin reaper invasion!

The only thing my Shepard would say to
Ash is

Shepard:  soo we might not make it out alive.....

Ash: 
what are you getting at?

Shepard:  Why don't you come up to my
cabin...?

Ash:   Liara didn't want to sleep with you?

Shepard: 
yeaaaah  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png

Ash: 
alright

Shepard: Score!

lol

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:21 .

[Tommy6860]

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, Shepard should fully understand other people's objection to seeing him with Cerberus, don't you think? Shepard should have said all sorts of things to the VS to ally their concerns. Instead, it was "It's been too long, how have you
been?"

Well, I wasn't expecting total expository convos for that scene considering, But I played that game more than a half dozen times and Shep appealed to their sensibilties to what happened, without them accepting that. Consider, me, as the PC, chose those options and they reject it anyway, so where is the opposing view?

REALLY SHEPARD. And expecting anyone to actually believe that Shepard was "rebuilt by Cerberus", well, that's just silly. Shepard shouldn't believe it either! I know I wouldn't. Waking up in a Cerberus facility, talking to nothing but Cerberus people, and being pretty much railroaded into deciding to work for the Illusive Man, it's all too pat, and Shepard was a fool to play along. Especially since Shepard later learns that the Illusive Man lured the Collectors to Horizon, and allowed Shepard to walk into the Collector's trap on the "disabled" Collector Ship. Yeah, I wouldn't take ANYTHING the Illusive Man says at face value, but what does Shepard do? Just go along with everything. Doesn't verify a thing. Doesn't tell TIM to get stuffed until the very end. I would have taken my chances with the Alliance and the Council after Freedom's Progress, and only AFTER getting stonewalled/dismissed by them would I even CONSIDER working with Cerberus. But Shepard falls in line like a good little boy, and is all hurt because the VS calls them on it? The VS is right, based on what they know. The VS doesn't know what happened on Freedom's Progress. The VS hasn't been debriefed by Anderson on Shepard's activities. The VS can only act on what they personally know and observe. And the appearances don't make Shepard's situation look like anything but a rogue agent working for terrorists. After Saren's betrayal of the Council, Shepard being with Cerberus would be particularly galling to me, and if I was Ashley/Kaidan, all sorts of things would be going through my mind. Is it indoctrination? Did Shiala's mindmeld thingie warp Shepard's mind somehow with Thorian mind voodoo? Is Liara controlling Shepard (never did trust that gal)? But "Shepard died and was brought back to life via heretofore unknown and seemingly magical resurrection technology and has good reasons and ample evidence that he is somehow not mentioning for working with Cerberus" would not be the first thing that comes to mind.

Well, it is a sci-fi fantasy game, so suspension of disbelief should be the norm in the re-animating of Shep. It is the story, whether you believe it or not, doesn't mean that within the writing of the game, lies your alternate script; it is what it is outside of what you want to make of it. The collector ship plot was weak, I agree, and the ending was atrocious with the teminator reaper. But overall, I thought the rest was OK as it seemed to fit the ME ending (where Shep claims the reapers are coming and that s/he is going to find a way to stop them) going through ME2. In any case, you adding contingencies to what "may"  and "should" have happened with the plots is jsut your idea of how the game plot and story should have evolved. But they are not part of the game and therefore, that's what we got. If you don't like it, then that is what it is, but I don't dismiss you because of that :-); many others didn't like it as well. The main thing I didn't like about ME2 was how it watered down what was already watered down RPG elements in ME, but that is me. I liked ME a lot and it was good enough in story to make ME2 replayable for me as well, since it carried over well.

Oh, and I am a  big Liara fan .

Modifié par Tommy6860, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:07 .

[Siansonea]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, Shepard should fully understand other people's objection to seeing him with Cerberus, don't you think? Shepard should have said all sorts of things to the VS to ally their concerns. Instead, it was "It's been too long, how have you
been?"

Well, I wasn't expecting total expository convos for that scene considering, But I played that game more than a half dozen times and Shep appealed to their sensibilties to what happened, without them accepting that. Consider, me, as the PC, chose those options and they reject it anyway, so where is the opposing view?

REALLY SHEPARD. And expecting anyone to actually believe that Shepard was "rebuilt by Cerberus", well, that's just silly. Shepard shouldn't believe it either! I know I wouldn't. Waking up in a Cerberus facility, talking to nothing but Cerberus people, and being pretty much railroaded into deciding to work for the Illusive Man, it's all too pat, and Shepard was a fool to play along. Especially since Shepard later learns that the Illusive Man lured the Collectors to Horizon, and allowed Shepard to walk into the Collector's trap on the "disabled" Collector Ship. Yeah, I wouldn't take ANYTHING the Illusive Man says at face value, but what does Shepard do? Just go along with everything. Doesn't verify a thing. Doesn't tell TIM to get stuffed until the very end. I would have taken my chances with the Alliance and the Council after Freedom's Progress, and only AFTER getting stonewalled/dismissed by them would I even CONSIDER working with Cerberus. But Shepard falls in line like a good little boy, and is all hurt because the VS calls them on it? The VS is right, based on what they know. The VS doesn't know what happened on Freedom's Progress. The VS hasn't been debriefed by Anderson on Shepard's activities. The VS can only act on what they personally know and observe. And the appearances don't make Shepard's situation look like anything but a rogue agent working for terrorists. After Saren's betrayal of the Council, Shepard being with Cerberus would be particularly galling to me, and if I was Ashley/Kaidan, all sorts of things would be going through my mind. Is it indoctrination? Did Shiala's mindmeld thingie warp Shepard's mind somehow with Thorian mind voodoo? Is Liara controlling Shepard (never did trust that gal)? But "Shepard died and was brought back to life via heretofore unknown and seemingly magical resurrection technology and has good reasons and ample evidence that he is somehow not mentioning for working with Cerberus" would not be the first thing that comes to mind.

Well, it is a sci-fi fantasy game, so suspension of disbelief should be the norm in the re-animating of Shep. It is the story, whether you believe it or not, doesn't mean that within the writing of the game, lies your alternate script; it is what it is outside of what you want to make of it. The collector ship plot was weak, I agree, and the ending was atrocious with the teminator reaper. But overall, I thought the rest was OK as it seemed to fit the ME ending (where Shep claims the reapers are coming and that s/he is going to find a way to stop them) going through ME2. In any case, you adding contingencies to what "may"  and "should" have happened with the plots is jsut your idea of how the game plot and story should have evolved. But they are not part of the game and therefore, that's what we got. If you don't like it, then that is what it is, but I don't dismiss you because of that :-); many others didn't like it as well. The main thing I didn't like about ME2 was how it watered down what was already watered down RPG elements in ME, but that is me. I liked ME a lot and it was good enough in story to make ME2 replayable for me as well, since it carried over well.

Oh, and I am a  big Liara fan .

My point isn't that the Lazarus Project shouldn't have happened (but yeah, it was stupid), it's that regardless of whether it happened, NPCs should respond to such a thing in a believable way. In real life, if there was a miraculous resurrection technology, it would be a Really Big Deal. In real life, if you woke up and were told you had died and come back to life, you would Not Automatically Believe It. Because as far as you know, such a thing is impossible. But Shepard doesn't question it, no one else questions it, and it's treated as if it doesn't matter. That's unrealistic, and it has nothing to do with "suspension of disbelief", because I've already suspended my disbelief that the resurrection was possible in the first place. Disbelief fully suspended. Okay, now what? Oh, everyone else in the game is going to act like it's not the greatest discovery of the century? They're not going to acknowledge it AT ALL?? Now wait just a minute there...

It is unreasonable to expect the VS to believe that Shepard was dead for two years and brought back to life by Cerberus. Because as far as they know, it's not possible to do that. And because Cerberus is known for many things, but telling the truth ain't one of them. I'm not trying to dictate what the plot should be, but if the plot is going to dictate that Event A occurs, people in the game should respond to Event A in a manner that is consistent with their world view, and not artificially dismiss such an event because "it's a sci-fi game". The player is encouraged to suspend disbelief about biotics, eezo, the Lazarus Project, and other such fabrications, but the other characters should not artificially suspend disbelief because the writers don't want to finish what they started. If you're going to do a ridiculous resurrection storyline, well, you have to go all the way with it. But BioWare wanted to have Shepard die/come back to life in the game for gameplay reasons, but not for story reasons, and that's BS. You can't have your cake and eat it too, BioWare.<_<

[Estelindis]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm not trying to dictate what the plot should be, but if the plot is going to dictate that Event A occurs, people in the game should respond to Event A in a manner that is consistent with their world view, and not artificially dismiss such an event because "it's a sci-fi game". The player is encouraged to suspend disbelief about biotics, eezo, the Lazarus Project, and other such fabrications, but the other characters should not artificially suspend disbelief because the writers don't want to finish what they started. If you're going to do a ridiculous resurrection storyline, well, you have to go all the way with it. But BioWare wanted to have Shepard die/come back to life in the game for gameplay reasons, but not for story reasons, and that's BS. You can't have your cake and eat it too, BioWare.<_<

Well said, Siansonea.  I agree completely.  Internal consistency is key.   We suspend belief (about what should be scientifically possible) as players, but characters internal to the story should not have to suspend belief.  They don't know they're in a sci-fi story.  Something like the Lazarus Project should totally revolutionise galactic society, as opposed to being used as a cheap justification for changing some of Shepard's abilities and forcing her or him into Cerberus's arms.  (Er.  Paws?  Claws?)

[Varus Praetor]

Siansonea II, all I can say is I'm really REALLY glad that the fate of humanity isn't in your hands.  If I knew for a fact that an entire armada (army???) of giant genocidal machines were coming to wipe out my species and every single legitimate authority that I had previously BEGGED to help me (and been repeatedly rejected) was still refusing to even accept their existence, I would work with Al Queda if there were the only people actually trying to stop it.

We worked with Stalin against Hitler in WWII because there wasn't another way and it was considered to be the lesser of two evils (the other being National Socialist world domination).  It got Eastern Europe 40+ years of misery, but at least we saved some of what was being destroyed.  I'm sorry that your moral compass appears to be glued in position, but Shepard working with Cerberus was the right call.

[Siansonea]

Varus Praetor wrote...

Siansonea II, all I can say is I'm really REALLY glad that the fate of humanity isn't in your hands.  If I knew for a fact that an entire armada (army???) of giant genocidal machines were coming to wipe out my species and every single legitimate authority that I had previously BEGGED to help me (and been repeatedly rejected) was still refusing to even accept their existence, I would work with Al Queda if there were the only people actually trying to stop it.

We worked with Stalin against Hitler in WWII because there wasn't another way and it was considered to be the lesser of two evils (the other being National Socialist world domination).  It got Eastern Europe 40+ years of misery, but at least we saved some of what was being destroyed.  I'm sorry that your moral compass appears to be glued in position, but Shepard working with Cerberus was the right call.

That would make a lot of sense, if Shepard actually did beg (or even ASK) somebody outside of Cerberus for help BEFORE joining up with Cerberus. But nope, Shepard just hopped on board the Cerberus train without a fare-the-well for the Alliance or the Council. Shepard only contacts the Council AFTER he's already taken over the Normandy 2 and signed on the dotted line with the Illusive Man. And before landing on the Citadel, the only person outside of Cerberus that Shepard has even talked to is Tali. Did Shepard make an effort to verify anything the Illusive Man was telling him before agreeing to help him? No. Did Shepard make a sincere effort to get the Alliance and the Council on board, using data gathered from Freedom's Progress to convince them of the Collector threat? No. Shepard just accepted everything the Illusive Man said at face value, and other than some minor squawking, didn't object to working with Cerberus. He later checked in with the Council and got the "ah yes, Reapers" line, but that should have come BEFORE agreeing to work with Cerberus, not AFTER.

Now if things happened as you claimed, if Shepard had gone to the Council and the Alliance first, well, then you'd have a point.

[ShepardsIdol]

Siansonea II wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...

Siansonea II, all I can say is I'm really REALLY glad that the fate of humanity isn't in your hands.  If I knew for a fact that an entire armada (army???) of giant genocidal machines were coming to wipe out my species and every single legitimate authority that I had previously BEGGED to help me (and been repeatedly rejected) was still refusing to even accept their existence, I would work with Al Queda if there were the only people actually trying to stop it.

We worked with Stalin against Hitler in WWII because there wasn't another way and it was considered to be the lesser of two evils (the other being National Socialist world domination).  It got Eastern Europe 40+ years of misery, but at least we saved some of what was being destroyed.  I'm sorry that your moral compass appears to be glued in position, but Shepard working with Cerberus was the right call.

That would make a lot of sense, if Shepard actually did beg (or even ASK) somebody outside of Cerberus for help BEFORE joining up with Cerberus. But nope, Shepard just hopped on board the Cerberus train without a fare-the-well for the Alliance or the Council. Shepard only contacts the Council AFTER he's already taken over the Normandy 2 and signed on the dotted line with the Illusive Man. And before landing on the Citadel, the only person outside of Cerberus that Shepard has even talked to is Tali. Did Shepard make an effort to verify anything the Illusive Man was telling him before agreeing to help him? No. Did Shepard make a sincere effort to get the Alliance and the Council on board, using data gathered from Freedom's Progress to convince them of the Collector threat? No. Shepard just accepted everything the Illusive Man said at face value, and other than some minor squawking, didn't object to working with Cerberus. He later checked in with the Council and got the "ah yes, Reapers" line, but that should have come BEFORE agreeing to work with Cerberus, not AFTER.

Now if things happened as you claimed, if Shepard had gone to the Council and the Alliance first, well, then you'd have a point.

Well in Shep's defense, he didnt really have much of a chance to ask for help until after Cerberus recruited him. Not like he can just contact the council or alliance from a classified Cerberus facility. If you tried that you would either: 1. be detained by the Illusive Man. 2. Be pimp slapped by Miranda, or 3. Try to leave the facility to mull over the decision, but do you honestly think that the illusive man would let his pet project run loose to make decisions without Cerberus authority being involved? Its not realistic thinking so the WWII analogy still applies. Shep still made the best decision with the info he had available at the time.

[Varus Praetor]

Siansonea II wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...

Siansonea II, all I can say is I'm really REALLY glad that the fate of humanity isn't in your hands.  If I knew for a fact that an entire armada (army???) of giant genocidal machines were coming to wipe out my species and every single legitimate authority that I had previously BEGGED to help me (and been repeatedly rejected) was still refusing to even accept their existence, I would work with Al Queda if there were the only people actually trying to stop it.

We worked with Stalin against Hitler in WWII because there wasn't another way and it was considered to be the lesser of two evils (the other being National Socialist world domination).  It got Eastern Europe 40+ years of misery, but at least we saved some of what was being destroyed.  I'm sorry that your moral compass appears to be glued in position, but Shepard working with Cerberus was the right call.

That would make a lot of sense, if Shepard actually did beg (or even ASK) somebody outside of Cerberus for help BEFORE joining up with Cerberus. But nope, Shepard just hopped on board the Cerberus train without a fare-the-well for the Alliance or the Council. Shepard only contacts the Council AFTER he's already taken over the Normandy 2 and signed on the dotted line with the Illusive Man. And before landing on the Citadel, the only person outside of Cerberus that Shepard has even talked to is Tali. Did Shepard make an effort to verify anything the Illusive Man was telling him before agreeing to help him? No. Did Shepard make a sincere effort to get the Alliance and the Council on board, using data gathered from Freedom's Progress to convince them of the Collector threat? No. Shepard just accepted everything the Illusive Man said at face value, and other than some minor squawking, didn't object to working with Cerberus. He later checked in with the Council and got the "ah yes, Reapers" line, but that should have come BEFORE agreeing to work with Cerberus, not AFTER.

Now if things happened as you claimed, if Shepard had gone to the Council and the Alliance first, well, then you'd have a point.

I do have an excellent point.  Before Shepard died (and yes, I would believe I had been resurrected if I had actually watched as I fell into a planet's atmosphere and later woke up in a medical bay with cybernetics poking out of my face and boosted physical abilities), he was hunting Geth because the Council and Alliance were already waffling over the Reaper issue.  The first Cerberus mission is to investigate the scene of a recent attack on human colonists....how dastardly of the terrorist organization!  I then at the first opportunity went to the Citadel to look up Anderson, who proceeded to tell me how the New Boss was just as dumb as the Old Boss, and that nothing useful was being done to prevent another galactic extinction.  So yes, other than a benign investigative mission, I did check with the "good guys" before helping Cerberus do anything even remotely morally objectionable.  To hear you talk you'd think Cerberus recruited Shepard to make baby stew or something.

The whole point of the SPECTRE is to have an agent able to operate independently, with initiative and an eye towards getting results.  To think that Shepard would run and ask for "permission" really sells his character short.  He's not a common foot soldier.  It's also not clear if he even knows enough about Cerberus to be greatly concerned before the first mission.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I kind of want the reunion dialogue with the VS to go like this...
VS: Well it looks like we're working together again.
Shep: *Paragon* Well it's good to have you back, I'm willing to let the whole Horizon thing go if you are.
Shep: *Neutral* I'm still a little mad that you didn't believe me but I understand.
And Shep: *Renegade* *laughs* You honestly think I want you around? *laughs again* There are HUSKS I'd rather spend time with.

[Siansonea]

Varus Praetor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...

Siansonea II, all I can say is I'm really REALLY glad that the fate of humanity isn't in your hands.  If I knew for a fact that an entire armada (army???) of giant genocidal machines were coming to wipe out my species and every single legitimate authority that I had previously BEGGED to help me (and been repeatedly rejected) was still refusing to even accept their existence, I would work with Al Queda if there were the only people actually trying to stop it.

We worked with Stalin against Hitler in WWII because there wasn't another way and it was considered to be the lesser of two evils (the other being National Socialist world domination).  It got Eastern Europe 40+ years of misery, but at least we saved some of what was being destroyed.  I'm sorry that your moral compass appears to be glued in position, but Shepard working with Cerberus was the right call.

That would make a lot of sense, if Shepard actually did beg (or even ASK) somebody outside of Cerberus for help BEFORE joining up with Cerberus. But nope, Shepard just hopped on board the Cerberus train without a fare-the-well for the Alliance or the Council. Shepard only contacts the Council AFTER he's already taken over the Normandy 2 and signed on the dotted line with the Illusive Man. And before landing on the Citadel, the only person outside of Cerberus that Shepard has even talked to is Tali. Did Shepard make an effort to verify anything the Illusive Man was telling him before agreeing to help him? No. Did Shepard make a sincere effort to get the Alliance and the Council on board, using data gathered from Freedom's Progress to convince them of the Collector threat? No. Shepard just accepted everything the Illusive Man said at face value, and other than some minor squawking, didn't object to working with Cerberus. He later checked in with the Council and got the "ah yes, Reapers" line, but that should have come BEFORE agreeing to work with Cerberus, not AFTER.

Now if things happened as you claimed, if Shepard had gone to the Council and the Alliance first, well, then you'd have a point.

I do have an excellent point.  Before Shepard died (and yes, I would believe I had been resurrected if I had actually watched as I fell into a planet's atmosphere and later woke up in a medical bay with cybernetics poking out of my face and boosted physical abilities), he was hunting Geth because the Council and Alliance were already waffling over the Reaper issue.  The first Cerberus mission is to investigate the scene of a recent attack on human colonists....how dastardly of the terrorist organization!  I then at the first opportunity went to the Citadel to look up Anderson, who proceeded to tell me how the New Boss was just as dumb as the Old Boss, and that nothing useful was being done to prevent another galactic extinction.  So yes, other than a benign investigative mission, I did check with the "good guys" before helping Cerberus do anything even remotely morally objectionable.  To hear you talk you'd think Cerberus recruited Shepard to make baby stew or something.

The whole point of the SPECTRE is to have an agent able to operate independently, with initiative and an eye towards getting results.  To think that Shepard would run and ask for "permission" really sells his character short.  He's not a common foot soldier.  It's also not clear if he even knows enough about Cerberus to be greatly concerned before the first mission.

Well, if you had played the first game, you would know that Cerberus is an organization that is considered terrorists by the Council. They're Bad, Mmmmkay? And if you're playing the Spectre card, that means you're the Council's b¡tch. Spectres aren't free agents, they're Council operatives. The right hand of the Council, instruments of their will. And I'm pretty sure the Council does NOT look kindly on a Spectre colluding with an enemy organization like Cerberus. I know this because the asari councilor says that flat out. Shepard should have contacted the Council first thing if he was so worried about hanging onto that Spectre status. And Shepard SHOULD have asked for all sorts of medical scans to verify Miranda's claims about the Lazarus Project, because it is DUMB to believe in resurrection.

[Varus Praetor]

Siansonea II wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...

Siansonea II, all I can say is I'm really REALLY glad that the fate of humanity isn't in your hands.  If I knew for a fact that an entire armada (army???) of giant genocidal machines were coming to wipe out my species and every single legitimate authority that I had previously BEGGED to help me (and been repeatedly rejected) was still refusing to even accept their existence, I would work with Al Queda if there were the only people actually trying to stop it.

We worked with Stalin against Hitler in WWII because there wasn't another way and it was considered to be the lesser of two evils (the other being National Socialist world domination).  It got Eastern Europe 40+ years of misery, but at least we saved some of what was being destroyed.  I'm sorry that your moral compass appears to be glued in position, but Shepard working with Cerberus was the right call.

That would make a lot of sense, if Shepard actually did beg (or even ASK) somebody outside of Cerberus for help BEFORE joining up with Cerberus. But nope, Shepard just hopped on board the Cerberus train without a fare-the-well for the Alliance or the Council. Shepard only contacts the Council AFTER he's already taken over the Normandy 2 and signed on the dotted line with the Illusive Man. And before landing on the Citadel, the only person outside of Cerberus that Shepard has even talked to is Tali. Did Shepard make an effort to verify anything the Illusive Man was telling him before agreeing to help him? No. Did Shepard make a sincere effort to get the Alliance and the Council on board, using data gathered from Freedom's Progress to convince them of the Collector threat? No. Shepard just accepted everything the Illusive Man said at face value, and other than some minor squawking, didn't object to working with Cerberus. He later checked in with the Council and got the "ah yes, Reapers" line, but that should have come BEFORE agreeing to work with Cerberus, not AFTER.

Now if things happened as you claimed, if Shepard had gone to the Council and the Alliance first, well, then you'd have a point.

I do have an excellent point.  Before Shepard died (and yes, I would believe I had been resurrected if I had actually watched as I fell into a planet's atmosphere and later woke up in a medical bay with cybernetics poking out of my face and boosted physical abilities), he was hunting Geth because the Council and Alliance were already waffling over the Reaper issue.  The first Cerberus mission is to investigate the scene of a recent attack on human colonists....how dastardly of the terrorist organization!  I then at the first opportunity went to the Citadel to look up Anderson, who proceeded to tell me how the New Boss was just as dumb as the Old Boss, and that nothing useful was being done to prevent another galactic extinction.  So yes, other than a benign investigative mission, I did check with the "good guys" before helping Cerberus do anything even remotely morally objectionable.  To hear you talk you'd think Cerberus recruited Shepard to make baby stew or something.

The whole point of the SPECTRE is to have an agent able to operate independently, with initiative and an eye towards getting results.  To think that Shepard would run and ask for "permission" really sells his character short.  He's not a common foot soldier.  It's also not clear if he even knows enough about Cerberus to be greatly concerned before the first mission.

Well, if you had played the first game, you would know that Cerberus is an organization that is considered terrorists by the Council. They're Bad, Mmmmkay? And if you're playing the Spectre card, that means you're the Council's b¡tch. Spectres aren't free agents, they're Council operatives. The right hand of the Council, instruments of their will. And I'm pretty sure the Council does NOT look kindly on a Spectre colluding with an enemy organization like Cerberus. I know this because the asari councilor says that flat out. Shepard should have contacted the Council first thing if he was so worried about hanging onto that Spectre status. And Shepard SHOULD have asked for all sorts of medical scans to verify Miranda's claims about the Lazarus Project, because it is DUMB to believe in resurrection.

Maybe you were the Council's b¡tch, but then again you've shown yourself to be about as staunch a Paragon as any I've seen on this board, so it's unsurprising.  I, however, did whatever it took to preserve humanity and the other races while refusing to be held back by the morons on the Council (remember "Reapers....we have dismissed that claim").  If it were up to you, the Collectors would have succeeded in completing the human Reaper and Shepard would be playing with himself in a Cerberus prison due to non-cooperation while the galaxy burned down around him.

Spectre's are given complete discretion with respect to completing their mission.  They don't submit mission plans, and they don't have to take advice.  If YOU played the first game you would have noticed the obvious lack of orders received from the Council other than the broad goal of "stop the bad guys."   Shepard has no responsibility to check in like a good little boy if he feels it will negatively impact his progress (which, as you admitted, it would have).

As for Cerberus being considered a terrorist organization, I don't dispute that.  Good, bad, or indifferent, they are the only confirmed group actively fighting the Reapers during ME2.  Again, terrorists < planet killing alien robots.

Following orders, A+ and a gold star for you.  Thinking critically and showing initiative to accomplish a goal in the face of opposition, not so much.

[Siansonea]

Varus Praetor wrote...
*snip*

Maybe you were the Council's b¡tch, but then again you've shown yourself to be about as staunch a Paragon as any I've seen on this board, so it's unsurprising.  I, however, did whatever it took to preserve humanity and the other races while refusing to be held back by the morons on the Council (remember "Reapers....we have dismissed that claim").  If it were up to you, the Collectors would have succeeded in completing the human Reaper and Shepard would be playing with himself in a Cerberus prison due to non-cooperation while the galaxy burned down around him.

Spectre's are given complete discretion with respect to completing their mission.  They don't submit mission plans, and they don't have to take advice.  If YOU played the first game you would have noticed the obvious lack of orders received from the Council other than the broad goal of "stop the bad guys."   Shepard has no responsibility to check in like a good little boy if he feels it will negatively impact his progress (which, as you admitted, it would have).

As for Cerberus being considered a terrorist organization, I don't dispute that.  Good, bad, or indifferent, they are the only confirmed group actively fighting the Reapers during ME2.  Again, terrorists < planet killing alien robots.

Following orders, A+ and a gold star for you.  Thinking critically and showing initiative to accomplish a goal in the face of opposition, not so much.

Ah yes, "the ends justify the means", how typical. You go, you badassss Renegade you. Make sure you kick some puppies while you're at it. I hear the Reapers HATE that.

For what it's worth, if "I" was Shepard, I would have ended up working with Cerberus...eventually. But I would have done so with the Alliance's blessing and with the Council's blessing. Allies are important, and so is verifying the claims of people like the Illusive Man. But Shepard doesn't verify squat, he just says "thank you Illusive Man, may I have another." Yeah, that's brilliant strategy. It works in a railroad-plot video game, in the real world, not so much.

[ashlover mark 2]

Siansonea II wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...
*snip*

Maybe you were the Council's b¡tch, but then again you've shown yourself to be about as staunch a Paragon as any I've seen on this board, so it's unsurprising.  I, however, did whatever it took to preserve humanity and the other races while refusing to be held back by the morons on the Council (remember "Reapers....we have dismissed that claim").  If it were up to you, the Collectors would have succeeded in completing the human Reaper and Shepard would be playing with himself in a Cerberus prison due to non-cooperation while the galaxy burned down around him.

Spectre's are given complete discretion with respect to completing their mission.  They don't submit mission plans, and they don't have to take advice.  If YOU played the first game you would have noticed the obvious lack of orders received from the Council other than the broad goal of "stop the bad guys."   Shepard has no responsibility to check in like a good little boy if he feels it will negatively impact his progress (which, as you admitted, it would have).

As for Cerberus being considered a terrorist organization, I don't dispute that.  Good, bad, or indifferent, they are the only confirmed group actively fighting the Reapers during ME2.  Again, terrorists < planet killing alien robots.

Following orders, A+ and a gold star for you.  Thinking critically and showing initiative to accomplish a goal in the face of opposition, not so much.

Ah yes, "the ends justify the means", how typical. You go, you badassss Renegade you. Make sure you kick some puppies while you're at it. I hear the Reapers HATE that.

For what it's worth, if "I" was Shepard, I would have ended up working with Cerberus...eventually. But I would have done so with the Alliance's blessing and with the Council's blessing. Allies are important, and so is verifying the claims of people like the Illusive Man. But Shepard doesn't verify squat, he just says "thank you Illusive Man, may I have another." Yeah, that's brilliant strategy. It works in a railroad-plot video game, in the real world, not so much.

i agree, i think shepard was lucky not to be arrested the minute he walked on the citadel to talk with the council. ppl sore about horizon complain ash and kai cant be trusted cause how they behave.

it should be noted that the VS dosent attempt to arrest you if you werent reinstated into the spectres, further proof to me that deep down inside they want to belive you.

working for or with cerberus would have been much more acceptable for me personaley if the alliance and council would given me their belssing.

Modifié par ashlover mark 2, 22 juillet 2011 - 03:24 .

[SSJ5]

ashlover mark 2 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...
*snip*

Maybe you were the Council's b¡tch, but then again you've shown yourself to be about as staunch a Paragon as any I've seen on this board, so it's unsurprising.  I, however, did whatever it took to preserve humanity and the other races while refusing to be held back by the morons on the Council (remember "Reapers....we have dismissed that claim").  If it were up to you, the Collectors would have succeeded in completing the human Reaper and Shepard would be playing with himself in a Cerberus prison due to non-cooperation while the galaxy burned down around him.

Spectre's are given complete discretion with respect to completing their mission.  They don't submit mission plans, and they don't have to take advice.  If YOU played the first game you would have noticed the obvious lack of orders received from the Council other than the broad goal of "stop the bad guys."   Shepard has no responsibility to check in like a good little boy if he feels it will negatively impact his progress (which, as you admitted, it would have).

As for Cerberus being considered a terrorist organization, I don't dispute that.  Good, bad, or indifferent, they are the only confirmed group actively fighting the Reapers during ME2.  Again, terrorists < planet killing alien robots.

Following orders, A+ and a gold star for you.  Thinking critically and showing initiative to accomplish a goal in the face of opposition, not so much.

Ah yes, "the ends justify the means", how typical. You go, you badassss Renegade you. Make sure you kick some puppies while you're at it. I hear the Reapers HATE that.

For what it's worth, if "I" was Shepard, I would have ended up working with Cerberus...eventually. But I would have done so with the Alliance's blessing and with the Council's blessing. Allies are important, and so is verifying the claims of people like the Illusive Man. But Shepard doesn't verify squat, he just says "thank you Illusive Man, may I have another." Yeah, that's brilliant strategy. It works in a railroad-plot video game, in the real world, not so much.

i agree, i think shepard was lucky not to be arrested the minute he walked on the citadel to talk with the council. ppl sore about horizon complain ash and kai cant be trusted cause how they behave.

it should be noted that the VS dosent attempt to arrest you if you werent reinstated into the spectres, further proof to me that deep down inside they want to belive you.

working for or with cerberus would have been much more acceptable for me personaley if the alliance and council would given me their belssing.

No one tried to arrest Sheppard. In many scenarios he's never reinstated to Spectre status, and no one is going after him. So, that's not something to be bragging about. No one's about to arrest the guy who saved the galaxy (except if he kills 305.000 Batarians). I just don't think that the VS is the kind of a person that Shep would total trust in ME3. They better make it believable or I will shoot them in the face the moment the talking ends. The OP has a good scenario, and it could work, but it needs to be expanded a lot in order to work fully.

Modifié par SSJ5, 22 juillet 2011 - 03:55 .

[ashlover mark 2]

if they really thouight he was a traitor, you dont think they would have gone after him? regardless of what he did in the past if they thought he had gone 100% bad VS,council and alliance wouldnt let him run around helping their enemy.

Modifié par ashlover mark 2, 22 juillet 2011 - 04:06 .

[Siansonea]

SSJ5 wrote...
*snip*
No one tried to arrest Sheppard. In many scenarios he's never reinstated to Spectre status, and no one is going after him. So, that's not something to be bragging about. No one's about to arrest the guy who saved the galaxy (except if he kills 305.000 Batarians). I just don't think that the VS is the kind of a person that Shep would total trust in ME3. They better make it believable or I will shoot them in the face the moment the talking ends. The OP has a good scenario, and it could work, but it needs to be expanded a lot in order to work fully.

It's Shepard. Not Sheppard.

So you've just decided that disagreeing with you is an offense worthy of "shooting in the face". Ashley/Kaidan calls you out for working with Cerberus, and instead of seeing that they have a right to be concerned, you just see them as "a person you can't trust". What a childish attitude.

[Sepewrath]

Xarathox wrote...

I have to call into question Ashley's loyalty to the Alliance here.

This is the same group that had railroaded her father and her, because of the stigma surrounding her grandfathers surrender to the turians. Hell, she wouldn't have received a promotion in the first place (let alone become a specter, if she really is one) if not for her roll during the events in ME1.

Her blind allegiance to a military that didn't give a rats ass about her is just...retarded.

Its because of those things, that she is so gungho about the Alliance, she has something to prove for her family. Remember what she said about her father, how he never got anywhere, despite his devotion? Her family has basically taking the stand that they aren't going to let the Alliance break them, if she was going to turn her back on the Alliance, she would have never joined in the first place. Remember that whole "Better than the best" business, she is out to redeem her families honor and that is that is far more important to her than Shepard, at least I would hope. Throwing away your lifes goals, your families goals for your boyfriend, is probably not a good way to live.

[ashlover mark 2]

Sepewrath wrote...

Xarathox wrote...

I have to call into question Ashley's loyalty to the Alliance here.

This is the same group that had railroaded her father and her, because of the stigma surrounding her grandfathers surrender to the turians. Hell, she wouldn't have received a promotion in the first place (let alone become a specter, if she really is one) if not for her roll during the events in ME1.

Her blind allegiance to a military that didn't give a rats ass about her is just...retarded.

Its because of those things, that she is so gungho about the Alliance, she has something to prove for her family. Remember what she said about her father, how he never got anywhere, despite his devotion? Her family has basically taking the stand that they aren't going to let the Alliance break them, if she was going to turn her back on the Alliance, she would have never joined in the first place. Remember that whole "Better than the best" business, she is out to redeem her families honor and that is that is far more important to her than Shepard, at least I would hope. Throwing away your lifes goals, your families goals for your boyfriend, is probably not a good way to live.

for ash the alliance is the better of the two,its a family tradition,family is important to her. ash wants to serve humanity but she dosent like cerberus's brutal and extreme methods.

its all personal perspective and personal belife.

Modifié par ashlover mark 2, 22 juillet 2011 - 04:39 .

[Ghost-621]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I think Shepard should prove he or she is still loyal to them, not the other way around. They weren't the ones who who mysteriously turned up two years after supposedly dying, working for a terrorist organization.

Well Shepard wasn't the one casting false accusations and spying on the VS. The lack of trust was on the VS's part. I think reviewing what happened on horizon should have actually cleared that up for them though. They were just slow to evaluate the situation.

I think everyone on horizon especially Shepard were infected by DERP.  

This.


Also, I want to see Vega go all  when he realizes how Shepard and co. does things.

[SSJ5]

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...
*snip*
No one tried to arrest Sheppard. In many scenarios he's never reinstated to Spectre status, and no one is going after him. So, that's not something to be bragging about. No one's about to arrest the guy who saved the galaxy (except if he kills 305.000 Batarians). I just don't think that the VS is the kind of a person that Shep would total trust in ME3. They better make it believable or I will shoot them in the face the moment the talking ends. The OP has a good scenario, and it could work, but it needs to be expanded a lot in order to work fully.

It's Shepard. Not Sheppard.

So you've just decided that disagreeing with you is an offense worthy of "shooting in the face". Ashley/Kaidan calls you out for working with Cerberus, and instead of seeing that they have a right to be concerned, you just see them as "a person you can't trust". What a childish attitude.

Thank you Grammar ****. The VS left Horizon without giving him a chance to sit down, talk and explain himself. You just saved a colony and they are just like "I don't care, you are working for Cerberus". Why didn't Tali just leave? Cerberus has done worse to Quarians then to the Alliance. And please, if you are going to make an argument don't try to augment it by calling my one (made in humor) remark in the previous post childish, and disregarding my point.

Modifié par SSJ5, 22 juillet 2011 - 03:10 .

[Siansonea]

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...
*snip*
No one tried to arrest Sheppard. In many scenarios he's never reinstated to Spectre status, and no one is going after him. So, that's not something to be bragging about. No one's about to arrest the guy who saved the galaxy (except if he kills 305.000 Batarians). I just don't think that the VS is the kind of a person that Shep would total trust in ME3. They better make it believable or I will shoot them in the face the moment the talking ends. The OP has a good scenario, and it could work, but it needs to be expanded a lot in order to work fully.

It's Shepard. Not Sheppard.

So you've just decided that disagreeing with you is an offense worthy of "shooting in the face". Ashley/Kaidan calls you out for working with Cerberus, and instead of seeing that they have a right to be concerned, you just see them as "a person you can't trust". What a childish attitude.

Thank you Grammar ****. The VS left Horizon without giving him a chance to sit down, talk and explain himself. You just saved a colony and they are just like "I don't care, you are working for Cerberus". Why didn't Tali just leave? Cerberus has done worse to Quarians then to the Alliance. And please, if you are going to make an argument don't try to augment it by calling my one (made in humor) remark in the previous post childish, and disregarding my point.

Actually, Cerberus has done far worse things to the Alliance than they ever did to the quarians. The quarians are mad at Cerberus over a single incident, whereas the Alliance has MANY beefs with Cerberus. Cerberus murdered an Alliance Admiral. Cerberus was responsible for the deaths of many Marines on Akuze and Edolus. Cerberus tortured and experimented on Alliance Marine Corporal Toombs. Cerberus carried on all sorts of sick experiments on Binthu and Nepheron. Cerberus isn't just some "shady" para-military organization, they've actively undermined the Alliance for years. People can whitewash Cerberus' reputation all they want, but it doesn't change what they did.