1476 réponses à ce sujet

[SSJ5]

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...
*snip*
No one tried to arrest Sheppard. In many scenarios he's never reinstated to Spectre status, and no one is going after him. So, that's not something to be bragging about. No one's about to arrest the guy who saved the galaxy (except if he kills 305.000 Batarians). I just don't think that the VS is the kind of a person that Shep would total trust in ME3. They better make it believable or I will shoot them in the face the moment the talking ends. The OP has a good scenario, and it could work, but it needs to be expanded a lot in order to work fully.

It's Shepard. Not Sheppard.

So you've just decided that disagreeing with you is an offense worthy of "shooting in the face". Ashley/Kaidan calls you out for working with Cerberus, and instead of seeing that they have a right to be concerned, you just see them as "a person you can't trust". What a childish attitude.

Thank you Grammar ****. The VS left Horizon without giving him a chance to sit down, talk and explain himself. You just saved a colony and they are just like "I don't care, you are working for Cerberus". Why didn't Tali just leave? Cerberus has done worse to Quarians then to the Alliance. And please, if you are going to make an argument don't try to augment it by calling my one (made in humor) remark in the previous post childish, and disregarding my point.

Actually, Cerberus has done far worse things to the Alliance than they ever did to the quarians. The quarians are mad at Cerberus over a single incident, whereas the Alliance has MANY beefs with Cerberus. Cerberus murdered an Alliance Admiral. Cerberus was responsible for the deaths of many Marines on Akuze and Edolus. Cerberus tortured and experimented on Alliance Marine Corporal Toombs. Cerberus carried on all sorts of sick experiments on Binthu and Nepheron. Cerberus isn't just some "shady" para-military organization, they've actively undermined the Alliance for years. People can whitewash Cerberus' reputation all they want, but it doesn't change what they did.

Hmm, you have a point there. But, they went all guns ablazing into a flotila ship. That was a major incident. Experimenting was performed very often on aliens too as far as I recall, escpecially during the early years of Cerberus. And Cerberus is an anti-alien organization. I don't think that the Quarians hate them any less than the Alliance.

[Siansonea]

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...
*snip*
No one tried to arrest Sheppard. In many scenarios he's never reinstated to Spectre status, and no one is going after him. So, that's not something to be bragging about. No one's about to arrest the guy who saved the galaxy (except if he kills 305.000 Batarians). I just don't think that the VS is the kind of a person that Shep would total trust in ME3. They better make it believable or I will shoot them in the face the moment the talking ends. The OP has a good scenario, and it could work, but it needs to be expanded a lot in order to work fully.

It's Shepard. Not Sheppard.

So you've just decided that disagreeing with you is an offense worthy of "shooting in the face". Ashley/Kaidan calls you out for working with Cerberus, and instead of seeing that they have a right to be concerned, you just see them as "a person you can't trust". What a childish attitude.

Thank you Grammar ****. The VS left Horizon without giving him a chance to sit down, talk and explain himself. You just saved a colony and they are just like "I don't care, you are working for Cerberus". Why didn't Tali just leave? Cerberus has done worse to Quarians then to the Alliance. And please, if you are going to make an argument don't try to augment it by calling my one (made in humor) remark in the previous post childish, and disregarding my point.

Actually, Cerberus has done far worse things to the Alliance than they ever did to the quarians. The quarians are mad at Cerberus over a single incident, whereas the Alliance has MANY beefs with Cerberus. Cerberus murdered an Alliance Admiral. Cerberus was responsible for the deaths of many Marines on Akuze and Edolus. Cerberus tortured and experimented on Alliance Marine Corporal Toombs. Cerberus carried on all sorts of sick experiments on Binthu and Nepheron. Cerberus isn't just some "shady" para-military organization, they've actively undermined the Alliance for years. People can whitewash Cerberus' reputation all they want, but it doesn't change what they did.

Hmm, you have a point there. But, they went all guns ablazing into a flotila ship. That was a major incident. Experimenting was performed very often on aliens too as far as I recall, escpecially during the early years of Cerberus. And Cerberus is an anti-alien organization. I don't think that the Quarians hate them any less than the Alliance.

Well, the quarians hated the geth just for saying "am I alive?", so quarian hate doesn't seem to be too hard to create. Just look at Daro'Xen.

But the fact is, just because Cerberus also experiments on aliens, doesn't mean the Alliance would despise them less. If anything, it should make them despise Cerberus more. After all, Cerberus is a human organization, and the actions of rogue human groups like Cerberus reflect poorly on humanity as a whole in the galactic community. The batarians aren't going to distinguish between the actions of Cerberus and the actions of the Alliance, all they see is human. Same goes for the Council to some extent. I'm sure the Council wishes humanity would get groups like Cerberus and Terra Firma under control, the way the Council races police their own individual peoples.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 22 juillet 2011 - 03:46 .

[SSJ5]

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, the quarians hated the geth just for saying "am I alive?", so quarian hate doesn't seem to be too hard to create. Just look at Daro'Xen.

I don't think that anyone is taking Cerberus' actions and pinning them on Alliance. Except for as you noted, Batarians, but they are just asking for a war in retrospective. The fact that murder, mercenaries, vile experiments (such as Garrus' loyalty mission in ME1), etc were common even before humanity was on the galatic scene tells us that the galaxy can differentiate acts of individuals and acts of a species. What I'm trying to argue here is that both quarians and the Alliance have reasons to have Cerberus, and that VS didn't care enough to let Shep explain himself, and that Tali jump aboard the Cerberus train, just because Shepard was there at the time.

Modifié par SSJ5, 22 juillet 2011 - 05:45 .

[ashlover mark 2]

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, the quarians hated the geth just for saying "am I alive?", so quarian hate doesn't seem to be too hard to create. Just look at Daro'Xen.

I don't think that anyone is taking Cerberus' actions and pinning them on Alliance. Except for as you noted, Batarians, but they are just asking for a war in retrospective. What I'm trying to argue here is that both quarians and the Alliance have reasons to have Cerberus, and that VS didn't care enough to let Shep explain himself, and that Tali jump aboard the Cerberus train, just because Shepard was there at the time.

VS arent  tali,three totaly diffrent ppl. im glad ash dosent behave like tali or garrus when it comes to shepard.like i posted before VS belive in the alliance its their personal view, they should not compromise their view just because shepard tells them its the right thing to do.

[SSJ5]

ashlover mark 2 wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, the quarians hated the geth just for saying "am I alive?", so quarian hate doesn't seem to be too hard to create. Just look at Daro'Xen.

I don't think that anyone is taking Cerberus' actions and pinning them on Alliance. Except for as you noted, Batarians, but they are just asking for a war in retrospective. What I'm trying to argue here is that both quarians and the Alliance have reasons to have Cerberus, and that VS didn't care enough to let Shep explain himself, and that Tali jump aboard the Cerberus train, just because Shepard was there at the time.

VS arent  tali,three totaly diffrent ppl. im glad ash dosent behave like tali or garrus when it comes to shepard.like i posted before VS belive in the alliance its their personal view, they should not compromise their view just because shepard tells them its the right thing to do.

Then obviously they are more loyal to the Alliance/Council than to Shepard. But hey, you got your opinion. I see that you like Ash. I don't. For all the reasons that I stated. And I think that as characters they are very bland, and Jacob isn't much of an improvement. I hope Vega does better.

[Siansonea]

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, the quarians hated the geth just for saying "am I alive?", so quarian hate doesn't seem to be too hard to create. Just look at Daro'Xen.

I don't think that anyone is taking Cerberus' actions and pinning them on Alliance. Except for as you noted, Batarians, but they are just asking for a war in retrospective. The fact that murder, mercenaries, vile experiments (such as Garrus' loyalty mission in ME1), etc were common even before humanity was on the galatic scene tells us that the galaxy can differentiate acts of individuals and acts of a species. What I'm trying to argue here is that both quarians and the Alliance have reasons to have Cerberus, and that VS didn't care enough to let Shep explain himself, and that Tali jump aboard the Cerberus train, just because Shepard was there at the time.

I understand what you're saying, but let's be fair, the VS couldn't just drop everything and join Cerberus at that moment. The VS is an Alliance operative. They took oaths. They have a mission. They are loyal to the Alliance. Cerberus represents everything the Alliance is against. For them to just drop everything, break their oath, and join Cerberus just because Shepard asked them to, well, that's pushing credibility even for this game. Shepard has ample opportunity to explain what he's doing with Cerberus, but doesn't. You and I can blame the writers for that. You can say that the VS doesn't ask for an explanation, but really, do they even have to ask? Does Shepard not understand how really really bad it looks for him to be on Horizon at all, especially in the company of Cerberus? From the limited vantage point of the VS, it's certainly a little too coincidental that Cerberus is there right as the Collectors are attacking. And sure enough, we later find out that Cerberus manipulated the situation to lure the Collectors to Horizon, so the fact that the Collectors picked that colony at that time is 100% because of Cerberus. So why wouldn't the VS  be suspicious, even though "it's Shepard"? And why wouldn't Shepard also be suspicious of Cerberus' role in the situation? Shepard should be falling all over himself making the VS understand why he feels he has to work with Cerberus for the time being, but instead he's Mr. Casual. That's just weird, and the VS knows it.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

I understand what you're saying, but let's be fair, the VS couldn't just drop everything and join Cerberus at that moment. The VS is an Alliance operative. They took oaths. They have a mission. They are loyal to the Alliance. Cerberus represents everything the Alliance is against. For them to just drop everything, break their oath, and join Cerberus just because Shepard asked them to, well, that's pushing credibility even for this game. Shepard has ample opportunity to explain what he's doing with Cerberus, but doesn't. You and I can blame the writers for that. You can say that the VS doesn't ask for an explanation, but really, do they even have to ask? Does Shepard not understand how really really bad it looks for him to be on Horizon at all, especially in the company of Cerberus? From the limited vantage point of the VS, it's certainly a little too coincidental that Cerberus is there right as the Collectors are attacking. And sure enough, we later find out that Cerberus manipulated the situation to lure the Collectors to Horizon, so the fact that the Collectors picked that colony at that time is 100% because of Cerberus. So why wouldn't the VS  be suspicious, even though "it's Shepard"? And why wouldn't Shepard also be suspicious of Cerberus' role in the situation? Shepard should be falling all over himself making the VS understand why he feels he has to work with Cerberus for the time being, but instead he's Mr. Casual. That's just weird, and the VS knows it.

I agree with everything but the bolded sentence.  Yes, the VS has to ask.  And exactly because it looks so bad.

This is the same Commander Shepard who is the big herof the Alliance:  Captain of the Normandy, first human Spectre, savior of the Citadel.  This Shepard may also be the Survivor of Akuze, may even know that Cerberus was behind that.  This Shepard is also likely to have seen the actions of Cerberus across ME1, raided several of their bases, seen their experiments, killed their personnel.  And this is optional content.  Shep goes out of his way to do these things

Now here is Shepard, amazingly not-dead, but working for Cerberus now.  Even if this is an upsetting turn of events, it's also a very curious one.  Why is Shepard working with them, knowing who and what they are?  Particularly is ME1 Shepard was especially pro-Alliance or pro-Council?  Thus, bad writing

[SerraAdvocate]

My Shepard is a Spacer/Sole Survivor, and thus is fervently loyal to the Alliance AND intensely anti-Cerberus. And even HE'S working for them. Ashley is absolutely right to assume he's gone off the deep end. It's a complete character reversal.

[AVPen]

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, the quarians hated the geth just for saying "am I alive?", so quarian hate doesn't seem to be too hard to create. Just look at Daro'Xen.

1. The Quarians do not hate the Geth because they asked "Am I alive?".... no, their hatred for the Geth came from the fact that after the Quarians tried to shut them down because they were becoming sentient, the Geth naturally rebelled and went to war with the Quarians with the end result being that the Quarians were driven in to exile from their home planet and all of their colonies and have been forced to wander the galaxy in the Migrant Fleet for 200-300 years, along with their entire race becoming a galactic pariah to the universe.

2. Daro'Xen does not hate the Geth - she just wants to enslave them all under their "natural masters". 

Modifié par AVPen, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:21 .

[SSJ5]

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, the quarians hated the geth just for saying "am I alive?", so quarian hate doesn't seem to be too hard to create. Just look at Daro'Xen.

I don't think that anyone is taking Cerberus' actions and pinning them on Alliance. Except for as you noted, Batarians, but they are just asking for a war in retrospective. The fact that murder, mercenaries, vile experiments (such as Garrus' loyalty mission in ME1), etc were common even before humanity was on the galatic scene tells us that the galaxy can differentiate acts of individuals and acts of a species. What I'm trying to argue here is that both quarians and the Alliance have reasons to have Cerberus, and that VS didn't care enough to let Shep explain himself, and that Tali jump aboard the Cerberus train, just because Shepard was there at the time.

I understand what you're saying, but let's be fair, the VS couldn't just drop everything and join Cerberus at that moment. The VS is an Alliance operative. They took oaths. They have a mission. They are loyal to the Alliance. Cerberus represents everything the Alliance is against. For them to just drop everything, break their oath, and join Cerberus just because Shepard asked them to, well, that's pushing credibility even for this game. Shepard has ample opportunity to explain what he's doing with Cerberus, but doesn't. You and I can blame the writers for that. You can say that the VS doesn't ask for an explanation, but really, do they even have to ask? Does Shepard not understand how really really bad it looks for him to be on Horizon at all, especially in the company of Cerberus? From the limited vantage point of the VS, it's certainly a little too coincidental that Cerberus is there right as the Collectors are attacking. And sure enough, we later find out that Cerberus manipulated the situation to lure the Collectors to Horizon, so the fact that the Collectors picked that colony at that time is 100% because of Cerberus. So why wouldn't the VS  be suspicious, even though "it's Shepard"? And why wouldn't Shepard also be suspicious of Cerberus' role in the situation? Shepard should be falling all over himself making the VS understand why he feels he has to work with Cerberus for the time being, but instead he's Mr. Casual. That's just weird, and the VS knows it.

We can atribute many things in ME to bad writing, but I like to think that some can be explained rationally. All throughout the game we see Alliance soldiers who broke their oaths in order to serve in Cerberus, so  I commend the VS for being loyal to the Alliance, but I do think they could have done more in order to examine Shep's current situation. As for suspicion ... VS had every right to be suspicious, but that is Shepard after all. Mine is the hero of the Skyllian Blitz, savior of the Council, savior of the Citadel, etc ... He's got a helluva credibility to burn. And it weird that the VS could't have taken that leap of faith. Ffs Admiral Hackett asks him for help, and he knows for sure he's affiliated with Cerberus, and of the events on Horizon.

Modifié par SSJ5, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:08 .

[Xarathox]

Sepewrath wrote...

Xarathox wrote...

I have to call into question Ashley's loyalty to the Alliance here.

This is the same group that had railroaded her father and her, because of the stigma surrounding her grandfathers surrender to the turians. Hell, she wouldn't have received a promotion in the first place (let alone become a specter, if she really is one) if not for her roll during the events in ME1.

Her blind allegiance to a military that didn't give a rats ass about her is just...retarded.

Its because of those things, that she is so gungho about the Alliance, she has something to prove for her family. Remember what she said about her father, how he never got anywhere, despite his devotion? Her family has basically taking the stand that they aren't going to let the Alliance break them, if she was going to turn her back on the Alliance, she would have never joined in the first place. Remember that whole "Better than the best" business, she is out to redeem her families honor and that is that is far more important to her than Shepard, at least I would hope. Throwing away your lifes goals, your families goals for your boyfriend, is probably not a good way to live.

Eh, from my perspective I see it as an abusive relationship.

~She made it as high as gunney, which isn't really impressive.
~She was assigned a **** posting on a colony that was seen at the time as somplace trouble would never rear it's ugly head. If not for the beacon, it never would have. "Her superiors' prejudice against her family meant she had mostly been
stuck on groundside garrison posts — preventing her from gaining actual
combat experience — despite her exemplary technical scores. She
repeatedly requested a transfer to a shipboard posting, but each request
had been denied, without explicit reasons."
~It's unclear if she was the actual leader of her unit, who all died at Geth hands. However, had Anderson not explicitly assigned her to the Normandy under Shepards command there's a high probability she would have been discharged from service, or possibly worse.

So, yeah. She lucked out that a beacon was found. Was even more lucky that shepard was there to save the day. And luckier still that the person responsible for the attack, shared an unpleasant history with Anderson, who blindsided by his hatred for him swept Ash up into the brewing storm.

Prior to Saren, Ash let the Alliance beat her, repeatedly.

[Siansonea]

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, the quarians hated the geth just for saying "am I alive?", so quarian hate doesn't seem to be too hard to create. Just look at Daro'Xen.

I don't think that anyone is taking Cerberus' actions and pinning them on Alliance. Except for as you noted, Batarians, but they are just asking for a war in retrospective. The fact that murder, mercenaries, vile experiments (such as Garrus' loyalty mission in ME1), etc were common even before humanity was on the galatic scene tells us that the galaxy can differentiate acts of individuals and acts of a species. What I'm trying to argue here is that both quarians and the Alliance have reasons to have Cerberus, and that VS didn't care enough to let Shep explain himself, and that Tali jump aboard the Cerberus train, just because Shepard was there at the time.

I understand what you're saying, but let's be fair, the VS couldn't just drop everything and join Cerberus at that moment. The VS is an Alliance operative. They took oaths. They have a mission. They are loyal to the Alliance. Cerberus represents everything the Alliance is against. For them to just drop everything, break their oath, and join Cerberus just because Shepard asked them to, well, that's pushing credibility even for this game. Shepard has ample opportunity to explain what he's doing with Cerberus, but doesn't. You and I can blame the writers for that. You can say that the VS doesn't ask for an explanation, but really, do they even have to ask? Does Shepard not understand how really really bad it looks for him to be on Horizon at all, especially in the company of Cerberus? From the limited vantage point of the VS, it's certainly a little too coincidental that Cerberus is there right as the Collectors are attacking. And sure enough, we later find out that Cerberus manipulated the situation to lure the Collectors to Horizon, so the fact that the Collectors picked that colony at that time is 100% because of Cerberus. So why wouldn't the VS  be suspicious, even though "it's Shepard"? And why wouldn't Shepard also be suspicious of Cerberus' role in the situation? Shepard should be falling all over himself making the VS understand why he feels he has to work with Cerberus for the time being, but instead he's Mr. Casual. That's just weird, and the VS knows it.

We can atribute many things in ME to bad writing, but I like to think that some can be explained rationally. All throughout the game we see Alliance soldiers who broke their oaths in order to serve in Cerberus, so  I commend the VS for being loyal to the Alliance, but I do think they could have done more in order to examine Shep's current situation. As for suspicion ... VS had every right to be suspicious, but that is Shepard after all. Mine is the hero of the Skyllian Blitz, savior of the Council, savior of the Citadel, etc ... He's got a helluva credibility to burn. And it weird that the VS could't have taken that leap of faith. Ffs Admiral Hackett asks him for help, and he knows for sure he's affiliated with Cerberus, and of the events on Horizon.

Yeah, I know, Shepard is All That, but you have to remember, two years have passed since the VS last saw Shepard. The VS has to assume that Shepard survived the destruction of the Normandy when they're reunited on Horizon, rather than think that Shepard was dead/unconscious for much of that time. From the VS's point of view, Shepard appears to have been with Cerberus for two years. That's quite a bitter pill. And "credibility to burn"? I don't think so. If you look at Shepard as just another person in this fictional world, rather than as the Main Protagonist And Hero Of This Game, you realize that not everyone in the game idolizes Shepard just because he's the Hero of this or the Savior of that. Some people expect Shepard to play by the rules. So regardless of how awesome Shepard was two years ago, the VS should naturally be very hurt and angry that Shepard gave up being a Spectre and gave up on all of his old team (except Joker, Chakwas, and Garrus, that is) to join Cerberus. There is no way the VS should know or believe that Shepard is working with Cerberus "for good reasons", because Shepard has already done a lot of things that the VS might have thought were questionable, especially a very Renegade Shepard. People tend to think of Shepard as some golden boy who can do no wrong, because he's the player character and people identify with him. That's fine, but in-universe that shouldn't be the case. People should call Shepard out when he does things they don't like. And other than the VS, Tela Vasir, Tali and Samara, not many people do.

[jamesp81]

If there's any trust restoring needing to be done, it needs to be Shepard restoring trust with his former comrades.

He's the one that showed up after supposedly being dead working for Al Qaeda in space.

[Made Nightwing]

Xarathox wrote...

Eh, from my perspective I see it as an abusive relationship.

~She made it as high as gunney, which isn't really impressive.
~She was assigned a **** posting on a colony that was seen at the time as somplace trouble would never rear it's ugly head. If not for the beacon, it never would have. "Her superiors' prejudice against her family meant she had mostly been
stuck on groundside garrison posts — preventing her from gaining actual
combat experience — despite her exemplary technical scores. She
repeatedly requested a transfer to a shipboard posting, but each request
had been denied, without explicit reasons."
~It's unclear if she was the actual leader of her unit, who all died at Geth hands. However, had Anderson not explicitly assigned her to the Normandy under Shepards command there's a high probability she would have been discharged from service, or possibly worse.

So, yeah. She lucked out that a beacon was found. Was even more lucky that shepard was there to save the day. And luckier still that the person responsible for the attack, shared an unpleasant history with Anderson, who blindsided by his hatred for him swept Ash up into the brewing storm.

Prior to Saren, Ash let the Alliance beat her, repeatedly.

Well, Gunnery Chief (Call it...Staff Sergeant/Gunnery Sergeant/Sergeant First class, depending on whether you're American, Australian or British military) isn't bad for eight years of service. That's generally how long it takes to make a good NCO. But with the amount of work she put in, along with positive assessments by her training NCOs and good feedback from from her squad, she should have qualified for a shipboard posting. In the Australian military she would have been dragged (kicking and screaming) out of her unit and sent to the Royal Military College (Officer Candidate School).

So yeah, the Alliance backbenchers suck. Good call.

[SSJ5]

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, the quarians hated the geth just for saying "am I alive?", so quarian hate doesn't seem to be too hard to create. Just look at Daro'Xen.

I don't think that anyone is taking Cerberus' actions and pinning them on Alliance. Except for as you noted, Batarians, but they are just asking for a war in retrospective. The fact that murder, mercenaries, vile experiments (such as Garrus' loyalty mission in ME1), etc were common even before humanity was on the galatic scene tells us that the galaxy can differentiate acts of individuals and acts of a species. What I'm trying to argue here is that both quarians and the Alliance have reasons to have Cerberus, and that VS didn't care enough to let Shep explain himself, and that Tali jump aboard the Cerberus train, just because Shepard was there at the time.

I understand what you're saying, but let's be fair, the VS couldn't just drop everything and join Cerberus at that moment. The VS is an Alliance operative. They took oaths. They have a mission. They are loyal to the Alliance. Cerberus represents everything the Alliance is against. For them to just drop everything, break their oath, and join Cerberus just because Shepard asked them to, well, that's pushing credibility even for this game. Shepard has ample opportunity to explain what he's doing with Cerberus, but doesn't. You and I can blame the writers for that. You can say that the VS doesn't ask for an explanation, but really, do they even have to ask? Does Shepard not understand how really really bad it looks for him to be on Horizon at all, especially in the company of Cerberus? From the limited vantage point of the VS, it's certainly a little too coincidental that Cerberus is there right as the Collectors are attacking. And sure enough, we later find out that Cerberus manipulated the situation to lure the Collectors to Horizon, so the fact that the Collectors picked that colony at that time is 100% because of Cerberus. So why wouldn't the VS  be suspicious, even though "it's Shepard"? And why wouldn't Shepard also be suspicious of Cerberus' role in the situation? Shepard should be falling all over himself making the VS understand why he feels he has to work with Cerberus for the time being, but instead he's Mr. Casual. That's just weird, and the VS knows it.

We can atribute many things in ME to bad writing, but I like to think that some can be explained rationally. All throughout the game we see Alliance soldiers who broke their oaths in order to serve in Cerberus, so  I commend the VS for being loyal to the Alliance, but I do think they could have done more in order to examine Shep's current situation. As for suspicion ... VS had every right to be suspicious, but that is Shepard after all. Mine is the hero of the Skyllian Blitz, savior of the Council, savior of the Citadel, etc ... He's got a helluva credibility to burn. And it weird that the VS could't have taken that leap of faith. Ffs Admiral Hackett asks him for help, and he knows for sure he's affiliated with Cerberus, and of the events on Horizon.

Yeah, I know, Shepard is All That, but you have to remember, two years have passed since the VS last saw Shepard. The VS has to assume that Shepard survived the destruction of the Normandy when they're reunited on Horizon, rather than think that Shepard was dead/unconscious for much of that time. From the VS's point of view, Shepard appears to have been with Cerberus for two years. That's quite a bitter pill. And "credibility to burn"? I don't think so. If you look at Shepard as just another person in this fictional world, rather than as the Main Protagonist And Hero Of This Game, you realize that not everyone in the game idolizes Shepard just because he's the Hero of this or the Savior of that. Some people expect Shepard to play by the rules. So regardless of how awesome Shepard was two years ago, the VS should naturally be very hurt and angry that Shepard gave up being a Spectre and gave up on all of his old team (except Joker, Chakwas, and Garrus, that is) to join Cerberus. There is no way the VS should know or believe that Shepard is working with Cerberus "for good reasons", because Shepard has already done a lot of things that the VS might have thought were questionable, especially a very Renegade Shepard. People tend to think of Shepard as some golden boy who can do no wrong, because he's the player character and people identify with him. That's fine, but in-universe that shouldn't be the case. People should call Shepard out when he does things they don't like. And other than the VS, Tela Vasir, Tali and Samara, not many people do.

I just don't see how is that any different for Garrus or Tali ... Escpecially Garrus who was ready to help Shepard right away, no questions asked. I know that its kinda different for the VS because they are part of the Allaince ... But that's kind of a part of the problem, isn't it? If their loyalites lie elsewhere that it perfectly unterstandable, but I don't want them coming back to me and saying how everything is ok now, cause that would kind break their charaters, from what we've seen in ME2. Shep was recognized as hero of the galaxy so he has a lot of credibility. I don't think that can be omitted easily. Wether Shep will make good or bad choices is up to the player, but my Shep always went 100% Paragon, and the VS should have sit down, and listened what he has to say for himself. They owed him that much.

Modifié par SSJ5, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:26 .

[Varus Praetor]

Siansonea II wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...
*snip*

Maybe you were the Council's b¡tch, but then again you've shown yourself to be about as staunch a Paragon as any I've seen on this board, so it's unsurprising.  I, however, did whatever it took to preserve humanity and the other races while refusing to be held back by the morons on the Council (remember "Reapers....we have dismissed that claim").  If it were up to you, the Collectors would have succeeded in completing the human Reaper and Shepard would be playing with himself in a Cerberus prison due to non-cooperation while the galaxy burned down around him.

Spectre's are given complete discretion with respect to completing their mission.  They don't submit mission plans, and they don't have to take advice.  If YOU played the first game you would have noticed the obvious lack of orders received from the Council other than the broad goal of "stop the bad guys."   Shepard has no responsibility to check in like a good little boy if he feels it will negatively impact his progress (which, as you admitted, it would have).

As for Cerberus being considered a terrorist organization, I don't dispute that.  Good, bad, or indifferent, they are the only confirmed group actively fighting the Reapers during ME2.  Again, terrorists < planet killing alien robots.

Following orders, A+ and a gold star for you.  Thinking critically and showing initiative to accomplish a goal in the face of opposition, not so much.

Ah yes, "the ends justify the means", how typical. You go, you badassss Renegade you. Make sure you kick some puppies while you're at it. I hear the Reapers HATE that.

For what it's worth, if "I" was Shepard, I would have ended up working with Cerberus...eventually. But I would have done so with the Alliance's blessing and with the Council's blessing. Allies are important, and so is verifying the claims of people like the Illusive Man. But Shepard doesn't verify squat, he just says "thank you Illusive Man, may I have another." Yeah, that's brilliant strategy. It works in a railroad-plot video game, in the real world, not so much.

Yes, when the alternative is the extinction of ALL sentient life in the galaxy, option B is ALWAYS the right choice.  If you can't see that, you should turn in your humanity club membership.  I'm not saying that the ends always justify the means, my world isn't black and white.  It depends totally on the particular end.  Most people are capable of grasping this concept.  It's the whole reason so many people are willing to both die and kill to protect their country, despite having no desire for either of those outcomes.

If I thought that it would somehow save Humanity, there wouldn't be an un-kicked puppy in sight.  From what you've said it sounds like you would be kicking puppies with me.  The difference being, of course, that you'd go run to the Council and the Alliance to petition for puppy kicking privileges.  When they denied your request (due to both their love of puppies and disbelief that puppy kicking is in any way necessary, despite direct evidence to the contrary) you'd have sat back and watched Earth burn until you couldn't stand it anymore and could somehow bring your tear stained soul to kick some puppies for the greater good.  That's the difference between us.  I'm not willing to sacrifice innocent people just so I can get a warm fuzzy feeling for getting consensus and approval from the interplanetary U.N.

I also LOVE how you state here that the Council would have EVENTUALLY given you their blessing to work with Cerberus, when you earlier had flat out stated that they would never approve of Shepard working with a terrorist organization.  I'd love to hear how you managed to metagame Council and Alliance approval for Shep working with Cerberus in the face of direct opposition from representatives of both organizations.

[Siansonea]

Varus Praetor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...
*snip*

Maybe you were the Council's b¡tch, but then again you've shown yourself to be about as staunch a Paragon as any I've seen on this board, so it's unsurprising.  I, however, did whatever it took to preserve humanity and the other races while refusing to be held back by the morons on the Council (remember "Reapers....we have dismissed that claim").  If it were up to you, the Collectors would have succeeded in completing the human Reaper and Shepard would be playing with himself in a Cerberus prison due to non-cooperation while the galaxy burned down around him.

Spectre's are given complete discretion with respect to completing their mission.  They don't submit mission plans, and they don't have to take advice.  If YOU played the first game you would have noticed the obvious lack of orders received from the Council other than the broad goal of "stop the bad guys."   Shepard has no responsibility to check in like a good little boy if he feels it will negatively impact his progress (which, as you admitted, it would have).

As for Cerberus being considered a terrorist organization, I don't dispute that.  Good, bad, or indifferent, they are the only confirmed group actively fighting the Reapers during ME2.  Again, terrorists < planet killing alien robots.

Following orders, A+ and a gold star for you.  Thinking critically and showing initiative to accomplish a goal in the face of opposition, not so much.

Ah yes, "the ends justify the means", how typical. You go, you badassss Renegade you. Make sure you kick some puppies while you're at it. I hear the Reapers HATE that.

For what it's worth, if "I" was Shepard, I would have ended up working with Cerberus...eventually. But I would have done so with the Alliance's blessing and with the Council's blessing. Allies are important, and so is verifying the claims of people like the Illusive Man. But Shepard doesn't verify squat, he just says "thank you Illusive Man, may I have another." Yeah, that's brilliant strategy. It works in a railroad-plot video game, in the real world, not so much.

Yes, when the alternative is the extinction of ALL sentient life in the galaxy, option B is ALWAYS the right choice.  If you can't see that, you should turn in your humanity club membership.  I'm not saying that the ends always justify the means, my world isn't black and white.  It depends totally on the particular end.  Most people are capable of grasping this concept.  It's the whole reason so many people are willing to both die and kill to protect their country, despite having no desire for either of those outcomes.

If I thought that it would somehow save Humanity, there wouldn't be an un-kicked puppy in sight.  From what you've said it sounds like you would be kicking puppies with me.  The difference being, of course, that you'd go run to the Council and the Alliance to petition for puppy kicking privileges.  When they denied your request (due to both their love of puppies and disbelief that puppy kicking is in any way necessary, despite direct evidence to the contrary) you'd have sat back and watched Earth burn until you couldn't stand it anymore and could somehow bring your tear stained soul to kick some puppies for the greater good.  That's the difference between us.  I'm not willing to sacrifice innocent people just so I can get a warm fuzzy feeling for getting consensus and approval from the interplanetary U.N.

I also LOVE how you state here that the Council would have EVENTUALLY given you their blessing to work with Cerberus, when you earlier had flat out stated that they would never approve of Shepard working with a terrorist organization.  I'd love to hear how you managed to metagame Council and Alliance approval for Shep working with Cerberus in the face of direct opposition from representatives of both organizations.

To: Councilor Tevos, Asari Embassy, Council Suite, Citadel
From: Commander Shepard

Councilor, we have a situation. As you know, human colonies have been going missing for some time now. Cerberus, actually the Illusive Man himself, told me that they were investigating the disappearances. Why was I listening to Cerberus? I'm glad you asked. As you know, the Normandy SR1 was destroyed over Alchera. In the course of that attack, I was spaced, and I lost consciousness. I regained consciousness on a Cerberus station while it was under attack. I fought my way off the station with the aid of Cerberus operatives. One of these operatives, Miranda Lawson [see data file for dossier] claims that I was killed in action over Alchera and that they "rebuilt" me, but I haven't verified that claim. It sounds preposterous to me too, and I hope to submit myself to intensive medical scans at my earliest opportunity to discover what actually happened. [See data file for preliminary medical scan data from my omni-tool and hardsuit] In any case, there is a two-year gap in my memory, and there's nothing I can do about that, but I thought you should know that.

Subsequent to my awakening and escape from the Cerberus facility, and before I could contact anyone outside of the organization, Cerberus sent me to Freedom's Progress, which as you know is one of the human colonies that was recently abducted. I investigated the colony with Miranda Lawson and Jacob Taylor, a former Alliance operative [see dossier]. We arrived shortly after the attack, and we found a quarian who had survived the attack. I also encountered my onetime crew member, the quarian engineer Tali'Zorah vas Neema nar Rayya [see her attached statement about the events in question]. The quarian colonist, Veetor, was mentally and emotionally compromised, but he had taken extensive readings and camera footage of the attack as it was happening. [See data file] This information showed that the Collectors were behind the attack, and I've forwarded all this data through channels to you already, and I urge you to verify my findings independently.

Cerberus claims to be actively seeking to defeat the Collectors and stop the attacks on human colonies in the Traverse. So I put it to you, Councilor. As a Spectre, I know I do not have to ask permission to accomplish goals as I see fit, but these are special circumstances. I was out of action for two years, and Cerberus is an organization that actively opposes the Council and the Alliance under normal circumstances. There is tremendous bad blood between Cerberus and the Alliance especially, and if you review my record, you know that I've actively opposed Cerberus on a number of occasions, most notably on Edolus, Binthu, and Nepheron. I would never ask for Cerberus' help if I saw any other way to accomplish the goal of stopping the human colony disappearances. If you and the other Councilors believe that the Collectors can be stopped without Cerberus' help, then I will abide by that mandate. But if like me you recognize that this situation calls for an unusual temporary working relationship with Cerberus, then I will utilize the resources and intel that they're offering me. In any case, a working relationship with Cerberus would be undertaken with the greatest caution and will full knowledge that there is a significant likelihood that much intel is being withheld. I appeal to you directly, Councilor Tevos, because I know you are better equipped to explain the situation to the other Councilors than I am, especially since your turian colleague seems to take issue with my actions more often than not. I understand that this request is highly unusual and if you can provide workable alternatives to this course of action, I would welcome them. I await your response.

Sincerely, Commander Shepard

[Labrev]

I do hope that I can set the record straight and everything with the VS, and that whole scene isn't just forgotten or they pretend like it didn't happen. I didn't get an e-mail, and it shouldn't be assumed that it's worked out already.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

To: Councilor Tevos, Asari Embassy, Council Suite, Citadel
From: Commander Shepard

Councilor, we have a situation. As you know, human colonies have been going missing for some time now. Cerberus, actually the Illusive Man himself, told me that they were investigating the disappearances. Why was I listening to Cerberus? I'm glad you asked. As you know, the Normandy SR1 was destroyed over Alchera. In the course of that attack, I was spaced, and I lost consciousness. I regained consciousness on a Cerberus station while it was under attack. I fought my way off the station with the aid of Cerberus operatives. One of these operatives, Miranda Lawson [see data file for dossier] claims that I was killed in action over Alchera and that they "rebuilt" me, but I haven't verified that claim. It sounds preposterous to me too, and I hope to submit myself to intensive medical scans at my earliest opportunity to discover what actually happened. [See data file for preliminary medical scan data from my omni-tool and hardsuit] In any case, there is a two-year gap in my memory, and there's nothing I can do about that, but I thought you should know that.

Subsequent to my awakening and escape from the Cerberus facility, and before I could contact anyone outside of the organization, Cerberus sent me to Freedom's Progress, which as you know is one of the human colonies that was recently abducted. I investigated the colony with Miranda Lawson and Jacob Taylor, a former Alliance operative [see dossier]. We arrived shortly after the attack, and we found a quarian who had survived the attack. I also encountered my onetime crew member, the quarian engineer Tali'Zorah vas Neema nar Rayya [see her attached statement about the events in question]. The quarian colonist, Veetor, was mentally and emotionally compromised, but he had taken extensive readings and camera footage of the attack as it was happening. [See data file] This information showed that the Collectors were behind the attack, and I've forwarded all this data through channels to you already, and I urge you to verify my findings independently.

Cerberus claims to be actively seeking to defeat the Collectors and stop the attacks on human colonies in the Traverse. So I put it to you, Councilor. As a Spectre, I know I do not have to ask permission to accomplish goals as I see fit, but these are special circumstances. I was out of action for two years, and Cerberus is an organization that actively opposes the Council and the Alliance under normal circumstances. There is tremendous bad blood between Cerberus and the Alliance especially, and if you review my record, you know that I've actively opposed Cerberus on a number of occasions, most notably on Edolus, Binthu, and Nepheron. I would never ask for Cerberus' help if I saw any other way to accomplish the goal of stopping the human colony disappearances. If you and the other Councilors believe that the Collectors can be stopped without Cerberus' help, then I will abide by that mandate. But if like me you recognize that this situation calls for an unusual temporary working relationship with Cerberus, then I will utilize the resources and intel that they're offering me. In any case, a working relationship with Cerberus would be undertaken with the greatest caution and will full knowledge that there is a significant likelihood that much intel is being withheld. I appeal to you directly, Councilor Tevos, because I know you are better equipped to explain the situation to the other Councilors than I am, especially since your turian colleague seems to take issue with my actions more often than not. I understand that this request is highly unusual and if you can provide workable alternatives to this course of action, I would welcome them. I await your response.

Sincerely, Commander Shepard

Love it, love it, love it.

And if the Council withheld aid after that, then "working for the bad guys" becomes a viable option.

The only change I'd make would be to cc Admiral Hackett that document.

[whywhywhywhy]

Siansonea II wrote...

To: Councilor Tevos, Asari Embassy, Council Suite, Citadel
From: Commander Shepard

Councilor, we have a situation. As you know, human colonies have been going missing for some time now. Cerberus, actually the Illusive Man himself, told me that they were investigating the disappearances. Why was I listening to Cerberus? I'm glad you asked. As you know, the Normandy SR1 was destroyed over Alchera. In the course of that attack, I was spaced, and I lost consciousness. I regained consciousness on a Cerberus station while it was under attack. I fought my way off the station with the aid of Cerberus operatives. One of these operatives, Miranda Lawson [see data file for dossier] claims that I was killed in action over Alchera and that they "rebuilt" me, but I haven't verified that claim. It sounds preposterous to me too, and I hope to submit myself to intensive medical scans at my earliest opportunity to discover what actually happened. [See data file for preliminary medical scan data from my omni-tool and hardsuit] In any case, there is a two-year gap in my memory, and there's nothing I can do about that, but I thought you should know that.

Subsequent to my awakening and escape from the Cerberus facility, and before I could contact anyone outside of the organization, Cerberus sent me to Freedom's Progress, which as you know is one of the human colonies that was recently abducted. I investigated the colony with Miranda Lawson and Jacob Taylor, a former Alliance operative [see dossier]. We arrived shortly after the attack, and we found a quarian who had survived the attack. I also encountered my onetime crew member, the quarian engineer Tali'Zorah vas Neema nar Rayya [see her attached statement about the events in question]. The quarian colonist, Veetor, was mentally and emotionally compromised, but he had taken extensive readings and camera footage of the attack as it was happening. [See data file] This information showed that the Collectors were behind the attack, and I've forwarded all this data through channels to you already, and I urge you to verify my findings independently.

Cerberus claims to be actively seeking to defeat the Collectors and stop the attacks on human colonies in the Traverse. So I put it to you, Councilor. As a Spectre, I know I do not have to ask permission to accomplish goals as I see fit, but these are special circumstances. I was out of action for two years, and Cerberus is an organization that actively opposes the Council and the Alliance under normal circumstances. There is tremendous bad blood between Cerberus and the Alliance especially, and if you review my record, you know that I've actively opposed Cerberus on a number of occasions, most notably on Edolus, Binthu, and Nepheron. I would never ask for Cerberus' help if I saw any other way to accomplish the goal of stopping the human colony disappearances. If you and the other Councilors believe that the Collectors can be stopped without Cerberus' help, then I will abide by that mandate. But if like me you recognize that this situation calls for an unusual temporary working relationship with Cerberus, then I will utilize the resources and intel that they're offering me. In any case, a working relationship with Cerberus would be undertaken with the greatest caution and will full knowledge that there is a significant likelihood that much intel is being withheld. I appeal to you directly, Councilor Tevos, because I know you are better equipped to explain the situation to the other Councilors than I am, especially since your turian colleague seems to take issue with my actions more often than not. I understand that this request is highly unusual and if you can provide workable alternatives to this course of action, I would welcome them. I await your response.

Sincerely, Commander Shepard

Here's the problem with your "theory" letter that I see,  Shepard would never write this letter.  This letter would be written by a operative Shepard or commander Shepard but not 1st human Spectre Shepard.  The first human Spectre Commander Shepard after defeating sovereign knew the Reaper threat was still a problem.  He vowed to the council he was going to find a way to stop them and walked off, he didn't ask permission.  Now from here the bad writing for the game retrofit to accommodate the addition of traditional fps gameplay plagued me2.  The direct reaper threat is gone until they released the arrival dlc, it makes no sense but we have to work with it.

Shepard was sent to finish off the heretic geth I think because of the nature of synthetics they do pose a threat but someone else should have ben tasked to deal with it.  Nevertheless our hero finds himself dying then waking up in the middle of a attack.  Now here's where your view starts to break down, the likelihood of surviving reentry into a planet atmosphere with only a spacesuit is nil.  While unbelievable Cerberus claims of rebuilding you makes more sense then you just surviving.

We have to know they at least did something to him good or bad you have no idea what they did to Shepard or put in him.  So Sheperd bides his time he hears the story of Cerberus bring him back and immediately asks about his crew.  Now while you ignored this, it tells me he doesn't exactly believe them but if anyone can get Shepard back up to speed on what's what is his crew.  Shepard bides his time, why ? Because it's sound strategy to keep your enemies closer, I hated Cerberus and if Shepard hates Cerberus why would he flip out ? A surprise attack is a lot effective then one that kicks open the guarded front door.

If they are telling the truth about the collectors then you view it as the enemy of my enemies is my friend.  At the moment he has no resources to get it done himself.  Despite all this the first thing my Shepard does is visit the Citadel and the council reinstates my Spectre status.  And that Scanner in the Citadel the one that says Shepard's dead kind of makes Cerberus a little more believable.  And helps us realize that he might not have any control hardware installed in him.  Now Shepard can start planning his attack if we were allowed to attack.  But saving the colonies comes first and the Alliance doesn't seem to be of much help.  Hackett is the only one who's reliable and he doesn't care about Cerberus only getting the job done.


Your letter shows a interesting belief you think because the council(old especially) will help if they knew the human colonies were under attack.  Last time you presented them proof they only made you a spectre to solve the problem and this time when you come to them they reinstate your Spectre status and tell you to stay within the terminus
systems, that anywhere closer would be "problematic."  The council doesn't care because they don't want to believe in the reaper threat.  They have pieces of sovereign and it's written off as advance geth tech, they don't care or
don't want to care.  Shepard wouldn't sit around and wait for approval.

Anderson says that it might be Cerberus behind the attacks on the colony.  Cerberus doesn't get a free pass but
if they are going to be attacked it shoud be on things they have actually commited.  Ash is sent to verify it and again she failed her mission until Shepard saved her life so she could report back.  Once that happens where were the alliance troops to help hunt the collectors ?  One ship ? No, not 1 ship was sent.

Despite this, on horizon the VS doesn't care about anything that's happen to you only how it affects them.  Then the moment you mention Cerberus that the effective end of the conversation, why ?  Because the VS, especially Ashley cares more about their careers then they do the reaper threat.  If they didn't they would have asked more questions or taken you in custody, because we know Cerberus does nasty experiments. (Maybe Hackett's order prevents this but that also should say something in shepard's favor) 

The VS heard rumors the extent of which we don't know but everything that was said to the VS was accepted as truth(Imagine how the alliance record the information) about Shepard.  If Ash can't ask the questions she doesn't deserve the answers, remember the "2 year memory gap" that makes Shepard's requirement for the burden of proof a contradiction.  How can he tell them what he doesn't know ?  And what he does know She/he won't listen to.

Something, more then what happened should have happened.  I mean if you romanced them you get a apologetic email...you can't retore the trust so easily after that.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 27 juillet 2011 - 04:09 .

[demonic_cookie]

I am very interested in how Bioware is going to handle it. I for one abhor the terrible writing on Horizon, I wanted to Shake my Shepard and scream "Explain, you nitwit! Explain like a normal person, don't just stand there derping!" So I will expect at least some of my more Paragon Sheps to apologize, and my jerk Shepards to roll their eyes and go: "Come on, VS, Reaper invasion! Share and care another time!"

A surprising amount of people somehow thinks that Shepard being a nitwit doesn't count, and the VS should apologize.

How Bioware is going to satisfy both camps... Well, I hope they will.

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 27 juillet 2011 - 07:41 .

[Quole]

Why would you ever want to do that?

[whywhywhywhy]

demonic_cookie wrote...

I am very interested in how Bioware is going to handle it. I for one abhor the terrible writing on Horizon, I wanted to Shake my Shepard and scream "Explain, you nitwit! Explain like a normal person, don't just stand there derping!" So I will expect at least some of my more Paragon Sheps to apologize, and my jerk Shepards to roll their eyes and go: "Come on, VS, Reaper invasion! Share and care another time!"

A surprising amount of people somehow thinks that Shepard being a nitwit doesn't count, and the VS should apologize.

How Bioware is going to satisfy both camps... Well, I hope they will.

I just don't see how the burden falls on shepard to fix it if the VS wasn't willing to listen at all.

[Made Nightwing]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

demonic_cookie wrote...

I am very interested in how Bioware is going to handle it. I for one abhor the terrible writing on Horizon, I wanted to Shake my Shepard and scream "Explain, you nitwit! Explain like a normal person, don't just stand there derping!" So I will expect at least some of my more Paragon Sheps to apologize, and my jerk Shepards to roll their eyes and go: "Come on, VS, Reaper invasion! Share and care another time!"

A surprising amount of people somehow thinks that Shepard being a nitwit doesn't count, and the VS should apologize.

How Bioware is going to satisfy both camps... Well, I hope they will.

I just don't see how the burden falls on shepard to fix it if the VS wasn't willing to listen at all.

Because, if Shepard is the responsible adult in this situation, the burden IS on him to fix things up.

And BTW, in response to your earlier post, after Horizon, the Alliance detatches ships to try and protect the colonies. Trouble is, there are a lot of human colonies, and not enough ships. Hackett tells you after Arrival that ships that came into contact with the Collectors (probably frigates and light cruisers) were destroyed.

[whywhywhywhy]

Made Nightwing wrote...
Because, if Shepard is the responsible adult in this situation, the burden IS on him to fix things up.

Takes two to tango, make drinks with mangos and order tickets using fandango.   If the VS isn't responsible enough to be in a relationship with a responsible adult that's all the more reason to move on and forget about them.

Made Nightwing wrote...
And BTW, in response to your earlier post, after Horizon, the Alliance detatches ships to try and protect the colonies. Trouble is, there are a lot of human colonies, and not enough ships. Hackett tells you after Arrival that ships that came into contact with the Collectors (probably frigates and light cruisers) were destroyed.

I can neither confirm nor deny I haven't bought arrival and never plan to.  Still the alliance always seem to be too little too late.  Especially considering how much Sheperd and his lone ship, limited crew and resources accomplished. 

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 27 juillet 2011 - 10:17 .