1476 réponses à ce sujet

[whywhywhywhy]

iakus wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...
To answer your second question, based on what we know about the VS they have not encountered any type of reaper technology. Although that isn't saying much considering the fact that WE DON'T HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THE VS HAS BEEN UP TO THESE PAST TWO YEARS, THANKS FOR THAT BIOWARE.

I agree about this part the writing is horrid, I discussed that with iakus .

I think this is the post you're referring too:

whywhywhywhy wrote...

While I agree the writing sucked and the storyline is horrid in ME2, I can't write it off the VS's (ash in my case) actions so simply.  One thing is clear despite the player not being able to actually decide anything meaningful in me2, the point of the scene is that Ash doesn't give you a Chance to explain.  Regardless how the scene is handle this is what Ashley's character is now and Sheperd was blindsighted.  When he woke up the first thing he did was ask about his team, when Ash first sees him she greets then attacks him.  Why Should Sheperd be the one to convince Her she's wrong ?  Even if better written and I could convince her I don't know if I would if Traitor is part of her dialog.

Exactly.  The entire scene takes on an air of unreality.  I can't understand why the VS goes off on Shepard the way he/she does when they already know from firsthand experience what carzy sh...stuff Shepard has done in the past to save the galaxy.  The only way I feel it can be resolved in a way that makes any sense at all is if something else is going on that Shepard (and maybe the VS) don't know about.  Otherwise, it's  simply bad, bad writing.

And to all the others saying people who don't like the VS are "butthurt" or wanted her/him to "bow down" you couldn't be further from the truth.  It isn't about Sheperd at all it's about the reapers an the VS survivor knows that but goes crazy because Cerberus wants to fight the Collectors/Reapers.  They've shown that they are unreliable and since I never considered Ash a LI but liked her as a Soldier her now questionable judgement she's useless to me.

As I've said

I have no problem with the VS not being recruitable
I have no problem with them disapproving of working with Cerberus
I DO have a problem with them freaking out and calling me a traitor.

But at the same time, Bioware's attempt to drive a wedge between Shepard and the VS is so pathetically obvious I am instinctively digging my heels in

yes this is the post.  Excellent reasoning.  Thanks for reposting it.  GN for real this time, lol.

[Iakus]

[quote]whywhywhywhy wrote...

[/quote]I think people are forgetting how unsettling it would be to wake up with two years of your life gone.  I haven't seen anything in the game that as a result of my choices or something shown in a cut scene that would lend me to believe that he would want to explain himself in the apologetic way most people seem to want from him on Horizon.  To me, Shepards response was normal for that condition.  He answered the questions, that'll all the VS can ask of him, it's up to them to believe him or not.  They chose not to.
[/quote]

Forget apologetic.  What about insulted?  Shepard doesn't have to say "Sorry I'm working for Cerberus"  Shepard could/should have said "I don't like this any more than you do.  But I already tried talking to the Alliance and the Council (A/N: Oh, wait, no I didn't!)  These terrorists are the only ones trying to stop the abductions.  They'll probably turn on me at some point, but for the moment at least, they're pointed in the right direction"

No apology needed.  A coherant explanation is, however, and was sadly lacking.

[Made Nightwing]

jreezy wrote...

Not just the word count. whywhywhywhy's explanation of the whole VS situation seems pretty logical.

So do many other explanations, and most of them make more sense than why's. The trouble is, he has been repeatedly asked to try and place himself in the VS's shoes, to see things the same way they are seeing them. He has not, and has continued to repeat the same wall of text reasoning as before. He uses the exact same argument every single time. It does not get any more original, and does not adapt to any of the other arguments.

[trobbins777]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...
You can't make the argument that a certain character's action or inaction really has anything to do with their state of mind.

"I've had enough of this colony" lends itself to a reasonable estimate as to what he's feeling.  The tone and inflection give further credence of this.  Also the dialog options he gets when he speaks to Kelly and Joker are telling, why have those dialog options if he isn't disapponted, angry and or hurt ?  Thank you.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the bolded part. However, With those conversations with Joker and Kelly, we signify whether we want to continue to pursue a relationship with the VS or if we've moved on, and if we are angry, sad or indifferent. The beautiful thing is we can make these decisions for any reason we want. Maybe you stayed with Ash because you respect that she had the courage to stand up to her friend/lover. Maybe you broke up with Kaiden because you can't respect a man who wears white and pink armor in emergency situations.  

trobbins777 wrote...
For example you may see that Shepard not responding to the VS email is a sign that they are still angry with them. I could however see it as Shepard not willing to become distracted in preparing for a suicide mission, or not wanting to give the VS false hope that they will make it back from the suicide mission. [/quote]It's a sign that he doesn't find it worth the time to respond despite having plenty of time to respond.  He doesn't message them or seek them out after the SM, he doesn't have a reunion with her an no DLC has been made for them. 
That's telling.  Thank you.

Once again you cannot assume that this is the case. Maybe Shepard doesn't know what to say to the VS. Or looks for them after the SM and can't find them. It's anyone's guess.

Modifié par trobbins777, 28 juillet 2011 - 06:16 .

[GoG ToXiC]

I made the mistake of leaving Kaidan behind in my canon playthrough.  I don't want her loyalty.  Makes it harder to leave her on an asteroid somewhere, and fly off into the sunset with the rest of my team.

Modifié par GoG ToXiC, 28 juillet 2011 - 07:40 .

[demonic_cookie]

Shepard is not canonically angry. trobbins is right, you have multiple ways you can express your feelings toward VS in-game, and only one of the options given to you is 'I never want to see that b*tch again!'

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 28 juillet 2011 - 11:15 .

[Made Nightwing]

GoG ToXiC wrote...

I made the mistake of leaving Kaidan behind in my canon playthrough.  I don't want her loyalty.  Makes it harder to leave her on an asteroid somewhere, and fly off into the sunset with the rest of my team.

Could you please go troll somewhere else?

[whywhywhywhy]

Siansonea II wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...

AVPen wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to just "trust Shepard" hero of this, savior of that, when he says "oh yeah, I've uh, been dead for two years, yeah, that's it, and I uh, was rebuilt by Cerberus by Miracle Science, yeah, that's the ticket..."

Soooo.... you don't trust yourself? 

yeah seems a bit dysfunctional lol:D

Au contraire, mon frère. What's dysfunctional is over-identifying with the player character's point of view, to the point where other character's points of view are completely dismissed/devalued.

You aren't really Commander Shepard, you know. You're playing the character, it's not you. And in any case, the VS isn't Playing Mass Effect 2™, the VS is confronting a long-dead friend (maybe) who is working with the enemy.

If you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes, then you're the one who's dysfunctional, pure and simple. I can look at the situation from the VS point of view, because I'm not Shepard. I'm a player of a game. I can see other character's points of view, including characters like Tela Vasir (one of the best adversaries in the entire game), who also calls out Shepard on working with Cerberus. That was an awesome moment. Really, the most unrealistic thing about ME2 (other than Magic Science Resurrection and Puree O' Humans Reaper Chow) is that more people don't call out Shepard for working with Cerberus.

calm down I think you and red are getting too worked up.

I am perfectly calm. Clearly you can't put yourself in my shoes well enough to recognize that my statements aren't emotionally vehement, but rather intellectually resolute. Not exactly a fine line, I'm surprised you missed it.

Well it was a joke and it seemed you missed that. Not really something I expected a response to unless with another joke. I agree with the thing about Tela Vasir though it's impact was lost because the player had no choice in the matter of working with Cerberus. 

I also don't like that I couldn't save her she just wanted the SB info to help do her job better.  I'm sure she could have been convinced to work with him after she awoke from the sedatitives Mordin would have given her will we went to take down the SB.  Strong ally lost.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 28 juillet 2011 - 02:34 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Made Nightwing wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Not just the word count. whywhywhywhy's explanation of the whole VS situation seems pretty logical.

So do many other explanations, and most of them make more sense than why's. The trouble is, he has been repeatedly asked to try and place himself in the VS's shoes, to see things the same way they are seeing them. He has not, and has continued to repeat the same wall of text reasoning as before. He uses the exact same argument every single time. It does not get any more original, and does not adapt to any of the other arguments.

Lies, I have placed myself in the VS's shoes and approached this from the VS's pov the problem is it's a weak position.  The vs had many rational options or course of actions they could have taken before and after horizon.  It's the VS supporters of horizon that refuse to look at the situation as a whole and not taking sides.  I look at the situation from a whole.  Period.

I use many facets of arguments while yours and others remain the same.  I respond to each and every point you and others bring up while most of mine are "overlooked" for covience in your arguments.  Or glossed over and never directly addressed.  Most who respond to me pick and choose which portion or post to respond to.  You simply disagree and that's fine but don't push your views of me on me as truth.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 28 juillet 2011 - 02:44 .

[Made Nightwing]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Not just the word count. whywhywhywhy's explanation of the whole VS situation seems pretty logical.

So do many other explanations, and most of them make more sense than why's. The trouble is, he has been repeatedly asked to try and place himself in the VS's shoes, to see things the same way they are seeing them. He has not, and has continued to repeat the same wall of text reasoning as before. He uses the exact same argument every single time. It does not get any more original, and does not adapt to any of the other arguments.

Lies, I have placed myself in the VS's shoes and approached this from the VS's pov the problem is it's a weak position.  The vs had many rational options or course of actions they could have taken before and after horizon.  It's the VS supporters of horizon that refuse to look at the situation as a whole and not taking sides.  I look at the situation from a whole.  Period.

I use many facets of arguments while yours and others remain the same.  I respond to each and every point you and others bring up while most of mine are "overlooked" for covience in your arguments.  Or glossed over and never directly addressed.  Most who respond to me pick and choose which portion or post to respond to.  You simply disagree and that's fine but don't push your views of me on me as truth.

I have never pushed my views on you as truth. I didn't even start this thread to say that the VS made the right choice on Horizon. I made no offensive statements in my OP, and hoped that I'd just have a chance to discuss this with Ashley/Kaidan fans, maybe get some suggestions from those who aren't fans, but are still open to getting the old team back together. I assumed that we'd think up some scenarios that would make sense but wouldn't demean the characters in any way, maybe throw in some dialogue suggestions for good measure.

Since starting this thread, I have been trolled, called a wuss and a 'screaming VS fanboy', and am now seemingly locked in an endless argument with you.

If this was a thread meant to talk specifically about Horizon and the VS's choice, I would gladly debate you till the end of time. But since it is not, stop wasting my time and get the **** off the thread. I have no interest in engaging in a debate that neither of us is ever going to win. If you don't like the VS, GOOD FOR YOU! I hope you get the chance to 'get them off your ship via the airlock' that you so desperately desire. It has no bearing on what I and others hope that the gameplay and story will be. If you want to talk about the VS's dialogue on Horizon, create your own damn thread and talk about it there. Stop cluttering up mine.

[ScotGaymer]

I felt after Horizon that Asley/Kaidan definately owed Shepard a HUGE apology. Because they were being rather unreasonable.

I understood why; for gameplay reasons, and for story reasons.

Didnt change my annoyance at it.

The email mollified me a bit tho.

[whywhywhywhy]

trobbins777 wrote...
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the bolded part. However, With those conversations with Joker and Kelly, we signify whether we want to continue to pursue a relationship with the VS or if we've moved on, and if we are angry, sad or indifferent. The beautiful thing is we can make these decisions for any reason we want. Maybe you stayed with Ash because you respect that she had the courage to stand up to her friend/lover. Maybe you broke up with Kaiden because you can't respect a man who wears white and pink armor in emergency situations. 

I accept your disagreement.  I'm curious however as to what you think he had enough of when he was ready to leave.  And yes when you get to direct Shepard to have a different emotional response on the ship but we have no control over what he said when he left horizon.  So again given his tone and inflection what do you think he's feeling ?

As far as kaiden he dies everytime, I always send Ash with the salarians makes sense she's the lower ranked soldier and needed the experience.  And I refuse to sacrifice the Salarians because I love the "hold the line speech" he's a good leader.  So I elect to save the many STG agents and Ash vs Kaiden(shrugs) just how it works out.

trobbins777 wrote...
Once again you cannot assume that this is the case. Maybe Shepard doesn't know what to say to the VS. Or looks for them after the SM and can't find them. It's anyone's guess.

I'm not assuming it's the case he does not send a response.  This again isn't a option given to us we can't respond to the VS's letter, your reason for it not happening could be just as probable as mine.   But he doesn't look for the VS if we look at the timeline we should have seen something about it in Arrival.  Of course it can be added in by bw if they want to soften the player up to the VS but as it is now Shepard didn't have a reunion with the VS immediately or shortly after the SM.  Nor do they have a DLC to hash it out.  Maybe they'll release something soon ?

demonic_cookie wrote...
Shepard is not canonically angry.
trobbins is right, you have multiple ways you can express your feelings toward VS in-game, and only one of the options given to you is 'I never want to see that b*tch again!'

Yeah, I said angry and/or hurt.  You are wrong.  When he asks joker for a pick up his tone and inflection cannot be denied this is not something you can argue against and be correct.   Thanks.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:24 .

[Siansonea]

Lots of playercharacteritis in this thread. It's narcissistic to expect everyone to automatically agree with you and trust you. If you lie down with dogs, you're going to get fleas. And Cerberus is a dog, a big, BAD dog. Don't expect everyone to just shrug and say "I still wuv you Sheppypookins!". Not gonna happen, not in real life, and not in a good video game.

[demonic_cookie]

When he asks joker for a pick up his tone and inflection cannot be denied this is not something you can argue against and be correct.

He's angry/hurt at the moment. But after that, like any normal person, he thinks about it and has an option to change his mind. You can talk to Joker after Horizon, and you can talk to Kelly, and you have multiple options to choose from, including "I understand his/her side, I don't blame him/her."

Before you start pronouncing the inarguable truth check your facts. Thanks.

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:55 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Made Nightwing wrote...

I have never pushed my views on you as truth.

I said "You simply disagree and that's fine but don't push your views of me on me as truth." 

Your comment "The trouble is, he has been repeatedly asked to try and place himself in the VS's shoes, to see things the same way they are seeing them. He has not, and has continued to repeat the same wall of text reasoning as before. He uses the exact same argument every single time."

That's your view of me but it's not the truth.  I respond to the questions asked if I have a position on a certain event I'm suppose to abandon it because it hasn't been refuted ?  If I was using the same argument how can I respond to every post's question of my posts in context ?  How did I go from never dealing with the VS to doing a playthrough where I'd interact with the VS so long as groveling isn't involved ?  Am I the one being closed minded ? I think not.  I agree with people, disagree with people and I think your problem is I disagree with you.  At one point you didn't even want to discuss Horizon.  How do you restore anything without discussing how to handle the root problem?

Made Nightwing wrote...
I didn't even start this thread to say that the VS made the right choice on Horizon. I made no offensive statements in my OP, and hoped that I'd just have a chance to discuss this with Ashley/Kaidan fans, maybe get some suggestions from those who aren't fans, but are still open to getting the old team back together. I assumed that we'd think up some scenarios that would make sense but wouldn't demean the characters in any way, maybe throw in some dialogue suggestions for good measure.

I responded to those sharing views I disagreed with or agreed with, if you truly wanted suggestions to fix something you have to listen to what people consider the problem.  Otherwise you'd resolve nothing, the Ashley/Kaiden fans wouldn't post suggestions that would appease the majority of the those who have issue with the VS. 

The feedback of the thread is proof of this.  And as thoroughly as I've highlighted many different issues the VS faces from different perspectives you should be thanking me.  But no you attack me and that causes me to question your assertions as genuine as you've never suggested a way the VS could overcome what I feel are problems but only questioned their validity while failing to disprove them.

Made Nightwing wrote...
Since starting this thread, I have been trolled, called a wuss and a 'screaming VS fanboy', and am now seemingly locked in an endless argument with you.

Maybe that's because you choose to see it as a argument and respond as such instead of simply taking it as constructive criticism or differing viewpoints.

Made Nightwing wrote...
If this was a thread meant to talk specifically about Horizon and the VS's choice, I would gladly debate you till the end of time. But since it is not, stop wasting my time and get the **** off the thread. I have no interest in engaging in a debate that neither of us is ever going to win.

Maybe that's the problem, I'm not looking to win anything.  Maybe you are and that's the source of your frustration.  And to answer your question, no.

Made Nightwing wrote...
If you don't like the VS, GOOD FOR YOU! I hope you get the chance to 'get them off your ship via the airlock' that you so desperately desire. It has no bearing on what I and others hope that the gameplay and story will be. If you want to talk about the VS's dialogue on Horizon, create your own damn thread and talk about it there. Stop cluttering up mine.

Your childish rants and outburst are what clutters up the thread.  If not for my discussions along with some notable others this thread would have been dead and gone.  I found it interesting enough to post and will continue to do so when I find a interesting enough post to respond to.  I find it interesting your attacking me yet trying to play the victim.  Much like you attacked me in the "Is Ashley still your girl" thread.  If you really care about the thread you need to go over to that corner (points) and take a time out.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 28 juillet 2011 - 04:23 .

[whywhywhywhy]

demonic_cookie wrote...

When he asks joker for a pick up his tone and inflection cannot be denied this is not something you can argue against and be correct.

He's angry/hurt at the moment.

Yes I agree.  And the rest of it was unimportant as it was just a supporting point that shepard anger and hurt was in fact real given his dialog options but since you agree that they were angry/hurt at Horizon(my original point) we are in agreement.  And I concede the rest.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 28 juillet 2011 - 04:31 .

[Terastar]

Ashley has been molded by her Grandfathers actions her whole life. Shepard comes along and gives her self respect. Then Shepard dies. Ashley moves on as best she can becoming a Spectre and she hears things like Shepard is alive and Shepard has been with Cerberus the whole time you have thought she was dead. You finally see her on Horizon and wham she is with Cerberus like you were told. So everything Shepard has to say( at least for the time being) has to be a lie as far as Ashley is concerned. Ashley will not have her life ruined by someone else again (thinking of her Grandfather) she worked too hard to overcome that stigma. Shepard is a traitor just plain and simple from her point of view and she tells you like she see's it. Deal with it. After awhile Ashley does apologies by her email to Shepard.

[whywhywhywhy]

Terastar wrote...

Ashley has been molded by her Grandfathers actions her whole life. Shepard comes along and gives her self respect. Then Shepard dies. Ashley moves on as best she can becoming a Spectre and she hears things like Shepard is alive and Shepard has been with Cerberus the whole time you have thought she was dead. You finally see her on Horizon and wham she is with Cerberus like you were told. So everything Shepard has to say( at least for the time being) has to be a lie as far as Ashley is concerned. Ashley will not have her life ruined by someone else again (thinking of her Grandfather) she worked too hard to overcome that stigma. Shepard is a traitor just plain and simple from her point of view and she tells you like she see's it. Deal with it. After awhile Ashley does apologies by her email to Shepard.

I agree with you, the question is where does the VS go after this ?  They obviously know they were wrong on Horizon and apologized for it but since the players seem to be more disturbed by this then they characters (as far as we know) Should bioware just have a short "my bad, let's move on scene" or something more complex in with the VS proves themselves through a series of actions to satisfy the gamer ? 

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 28 juillet 2011 - 05:37 .

[Terastar]

I don't see them having to prove anything to Shepard. Ashley will do everything to make sure your mission will succeed. Ashley will be totally loyal and would give her life for you/and/or mission nothing has changed for her in that regard. The Alliance and the Citadel Council wants smooth sailing when the storm is at the coast. Ashley had no authority as either a Spectre or as an Alliance officer do anything to Shepard at Horizon she did the best option and that was to walk away and report her findings. Where Ashley goes and if their can be a friendship or romance is entirely up to Shepard. Everyone's Shepard will have to determine this.Personally I'm easy. Just ask me if I got your email and are we okay? I would say something like you really hurt me but I understand where you were coming from. I would like to see us get closer again.

[AVPen]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Terastar wrote...

Ashley has been molded by her Grandfathers actions her whole life. Shepard comes along and gives her self respect. Then Shepard dies. Ashley moves on as best she can becoming a Spectre and she hears things like Shepard is alive and Shepard has been with Cerberus the whole time you have thought she was dead. You finally see her on Horizon and wham she is with Cerberus like you were told. So everything Shepard has to say( at least for the time being) has to be a lie as far as Ashley is concerned. Ashley will not have her life ruined by someone else again (thinking of her Grandfather) she worked too hard to overcome that stigma. Shepard is a traitor just plain and simple from her point of view and she tells you like she see's it. Deal with it. After awhile Ashley does apologies by her email to Shepard.

I agree with you, the question is where does the VS go after this ?  They obviously know they were wrong on Horizon and apologized for it but since the players seem to be more disturbed by this then they characters (as far as we know) Should bioware just have a short "my bad, let's move on scene" or something more complex in with the VS proves themselves through a series of actions to satisfy the gamer?

Honestly, I'm for the latter option - the level of mistrust, anger, and/or disloyalty that BW created between Shepard and the VS on Horizon can't just be swept away in a single "Right or wrong, we gotta move on" exchange.

My biggest fear right now with ME3 (both for this VS issue and for other character/story gameplay elements) is that our ability to chose and decide how our Shepards react and interact with other characters - something that has always strongly defined the ME series apart from other video game series - is going to be swept aside in favor of pre-scripted storylines and character developments by BioWare writers where we have no choices or decisions to make. Kinda hard to say why I'm so nervous about this (perhaps partly due to the writing of the Arrival DLC and also from BioWare's incredible tight-lipness when it comes the squadmate situation of ME3), but I was recently reminded of just how much the player's choice can define who Shepard is and how he/she reacts... ironically enough, it came from something that is not generally known for having much in way of ME player choices: the "Lair of the Shadow Broker" DLC.

In LotSB, after you invite Liara up to see the new Normandy and she gives Shepard his/her tags, she proceeds to asks Shepard how he/she is really doing, not what he/she says to the squad but how he/she is really feeling. On previous playthroughs, I had always chosen either the top or middle dialogue options (where Shepard says he's worried or hopeful on what's next in store for him and his squad), but for this new canon Shepard run I'm doing, I decided to try out the bottom option of "I'm frustrated". I was more than a little amazed when my Shepard looked at Liara and told her that he was "tired" - tired of having to deal with Cerberus, tired of the Council ignoring him and his warnings, and lastly (and with a hint of anger to his voice), tired of his closest friends not believing a word he says. To this, Liara says that she had heard what the VS (Kaidan, in my game) said to Shepard on Horizon and that she was sorry that he didn't believe Shepard. For the first time in one of my playthroughs, my Shepard was saying the things that I had wanting him to say about his situation, venting the same frustrations that I had for these individuals and organizations throughout the ME2 story.

I guess what I'm saying is, Bioware needs to give our Shepards the choice/s in ME3 as to how to deal with the VS situation: for those Shepards that want to forgive and forget the Horizon situation and accept the VS back into the squad, for those Shepards like mine who lost complete trust in the VS and want little to do with them, the player should have the ability to make those choices on his/her own without being forced to accept or deny a character due to BioWare's personal preferences.

Modifié par AVPen, 28 juillet 2011 - 07:05 .

[outmane]

laecraft wrote...

The question I want answered is this: why does VS join with Shepard in ME3?

Nothing's changed. There are no major revelations between Horizon and the invasion. The Reapers are still the enemy. Shepard is still a traitor. In fact, he's even a bigger traitor now, after what happened in the Arrival. What's happened to VS' unshakable principles? Why would someone so loyal to the Alliance, so independent and so moral as VS lower themselves to working with a traitor?

Please let it not be "but he doesn't work with Cerberus anymore." Shepard's still the same person who did those choices in ME2. He's still the person who "turned his back on everything the Alliance stands for." He would save those colonies again. But now it's suddenly okay to aid him, when he doesn't need support now as much as he needed it back in ME2.

I agree that since the writers have decided that the VS be angry with Shep (VS calms down in the letter but still belives Shep is making a mistake), they shouldnt retcon it at the first occasion. The VS losing trust in Shepard bothered me but then joining back for no good reason would be even more annoying. I can (reluctantly) accept that Shep discovered a new side of the VS on Horizon but if ME3 brings the VS right back to "sheep" status it will kill their character. 

[whywhywhywhy]

Terastar wrote...

I don't see them having to prove anything to Shepard. Ashley will do everything to make sure your mission will succeed. Ashley will be totally loyal and would give her life for you/and/or mission nothing has changed for her in that regard. The Alliance and the Citadel Council wants smooth sailing when the storm is at the coast. Ashley had no authority as either a Spectre or as an Alliance officer do anything to Shepard at Horizon she did the best option and that was to walk away and report her findings. Where Ashley goes and if their can be a friendship or romance is entirely up to Shepard. Everyone's Shepard will have to determine this.Personally I'm easy. Just ask me if I got your email and are we okay? I would say something like you really hurt me but I understand where you were coming from. I would like to see us get closer again.

Cool, but do you feel that this part

Terastar wrote...  Personally I'm easy. Just ask me if I got your email and are we okay? I
would say something like you really hurt me but I understand where you
were coming from. I would like to see us get closer again.

Must happen or isn't necssary ?  Just curious.  Thanks for your posts.

AVPen wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Terastar wrote...

Ashley has been molded by her Grandfathers actions her whole life. Shepard comes along and gives her self respect. Then Shepard dies. Ashley moves on as best she can becoming a Spectre and she hears things like Shepard is alive and Shepard has been with Cerberus the whole time you have thought she was dead. You finally see her on Horizon and wham she is with Cerberus like you were told. So everything Shepard has to say( at least for the time being) has to be a lie as far as Ashley is concerned. Ashley will not have her life ruined by someone else again (thinking of her Grandfather) she worked too hard to overcome that stigma. Shepard is a traitor just plain and simple from her point of view and she tells you like she see's it. Deal with it. After awhile Ashley does apologies by her email to Shepard.

I agree with you, the question is where does the VS go after this ?  They obviously
know they were wrong on Horizon and apologized for it but since the players seem to be more disturbed by this then they characters (as far as we know) Should bioware just have a short "my bad, let's move on scene" or something more complex in with the VS proves themselves through a series of actions to satisfy the gamer?

Honestly, I'm for the latter option - the level of mistrust, anger, and/or disloyalty that BW created between Shepard and the VS on Horizon can't just be swept away in a single "Right or wrong, we gotta move on" exchange.  My biggest fear right now with ME3 (both for this VS issue and for other character/story gameplay elements) is that our
ability to chose and decide how our Shepards react and interact with other characters - something that has always strongly defined the ME series apart from other video game series - is going to be swept aside in favor of pre-scripted storylines and character developments by BioWare writers where we have no choices or decisions to make. Kinda hard to say why I'm so nervous about this (perhaps partly due to the writing of the Arrival DLC and also from BioWare's incredible tight-lipness when it comes the squadmate situation of ME3), but I was recently reminded of just how much the player's choice can define who Shepard is and how he/she reacts... ironically enough, it came from something that is not generally known for having much in way of ME player choices: the "Lair of the Shadow Broker" DLC.

In LotSB, after you invite Liara up to see the new Normandy and she gives Shepard his/her tags, she proceeds to asks Shepard how he/she is really doing, not what he/she says to the squad but how he/she is really feeling. On
previous playthroughs, I had always chosen either the top or middle dialogue options (where Shepard says he's worried or hopeful on what's next in store for him and his squad), but for this new canon Shepard run I'm doing, I decided to try out the bottom option of "I'm frustrated". I was more than a little amazed when my Shepard looked at Liara and told her that he was "tired" - tired of having to deal with Cerberus, tired of the Council ignoring him and his warnings, and lastly (and with a hint of anger to his voice), tired of his closest friends not believing a word he says. To this, Liara says that she had heard what the VS (Kaidan, in my game) said to Shepard on Horizon and that she was sorry that he didn't believe Shepard. For the first time in one of my playthroughs, my Shepard was saying the things that I had wanting him to say about his situation, venting the same frustrations that I had for these individuals and organizations throughout the ME2 story.

I guess what I'm saying is, Bioware needs to give our Shepards the choice/s in ME3 as to how to deal with the VS situation: for those Shepards that want to forgive and forget the Horizon situation and accept the VS back into the squad, for those Shepards like mine who lost complete trust in the VS and want little to do with them, the player
should have the ability to make those choices on his/her own without being forced to accept or deny a character due to BioWare's personal preferences.

Excellent observation AVPen the same thing happened to me recently too that's what led me to go back to Horizon and what Shepards reactions a bit more closely.  And notice that he actually that he was anger, it's not exactly hidden ust sort of overlooked.  And I think you nailed it when you say

AVPen wrote... For the first time in one of my playthroughs, my Shepard was saying the things that I had wanting him to say about his situation, venting the same frustrations that I had for these individuals and organizations throughout the ME2 story.

I guess what I'm saying is, Bioware needs to give our Shepards the choice/s in ME3 as to how to deal with the VS situation: for those Shepards that want to forgive and forget the Horizon situation and accept the VS back into the squad, for those Shepards like mine who lost complete trust in the VS and want little to do with them, the player
should have the ability to make those choices on his/her own without being forced to accept or deny a character due to BioWare's personal preferences.

That is spot on and I think a lot of people who have issue with the VS feel this way and don't just want it swept under the rug or not addressed.  Excellent contribution.  Thanks

laecraft wrote...

The question I want answered is this:
why does VS join with Shepard in ME3?

Nothing's changed. There are no major revelations between Horizon and the invasion. The Reapers are still the enemy. Shepard is still a traitor. In fact, he's even a bigger traitor now, after what happened in the Arrival. What's happened to VS' unshakable principles? Why would someone so loyal to the Alliance, so independent and so moral as VS lower themselves to working with a traitor?

Please let it not be "but he doesn't work with Cerberus anymore." Shepard's still the same person who did those choices in ME2. He's still the person who "turned his back on everything the Alliance stands for." He would save those colonies again. But now it's suddenly okay to aid him, when he doesn't need support now as much as he
needed it back in ME2.

What can I say Laecraft you always seem to hone in on what I personally consider the heart of the matter for the VS in ME3.  Even if Bioware gives us a options to make things right with the VS, the VS makes things right with us or some combination of the two the WhY(no pun intended) has to be explained.  Otherwise no matter how well the reunion scene(s) they'll be cheapen by the absence of a proper explaination of the VS's actions on Horizon and the mission that kept them away as well as the 180 by everyone else.  As always you raise a very significant issue, I'll look forward to your future posts.  Thanks.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 28 juillet 2011 - 08:16 .

[Siansonea]

laecraft wrote...

The question I want answered is this: why does VS join with Shepard in ME3?

Nothing's changed. There are no major revelations between Horizon and the invasion. The Reapers are still the enemy. Shepard is still a traitor. In fact, he's even a bigger traitor now, after what happened in the Arrival. What's happened to VS' unshakable principles? Why would someone so loyal to the Alliance, so independent and so moral as VS lower themselves to working with a traitor?

Please let it not be "but he doesn't work with Cerberus anymore." Shepard's still the same person who did those choices in ME2. He's still the person who "turned his back on everything the Alliance stands for." He would save those colonies again. But now it's suddenly okay to aid him, when he doesn't need support now as much as he needed it back in ME2.

Simple. Anderson actually clues them in.

Part of the problem on Horizon is that the VS is completely in the dark, "Anderson stonewalled me". But after Horizon, the proverbial cat is out of the bag, and after a chat with Anderson (which almost certainly happens) the VS has more information upon which to base their assessment of the situation. If Anderson tells the VS about Shepard's convo with the Council/Spectre reinstatement, and tells them that the Alliance is tacitly supporting Shepard, then the VS might have an "oh, I may have been too harsh" moment. But based on what the VS knows in the moment on Horizon, there's no way they could be expected to just be 100% onboard with Shepard regardless of past history. A nice long debrief from Anderson would go a loooooong way towards resolving the conflict between the VS and Shepard.

And let's face it, the exchange on Horizon isn't that heated, nobody pulled a gun on anyone else, and no one threatened anyone else with violence. The VS simply told Shepard that they don't trust Cerberus, and that their loyalty is to the Alliance. If Shepard can't see that working with Cerberus IS a betrayal, then Shepard is just as narcissistic and oblivious as your average BSN member.

[outmane]

Siansonea II wrote...
And let's face it, the exchange on Horizon isn't that heated, nobody pulled a gun on anyone else, and no one threatened anyone else with violence. The VS simply told Shepard that they don't trust Cerberus, and that their loyalty is to the Alliance. If Shepard can't see that working with Cerberus IS a betrayal, then Shepard is just as narcissistic and oblivious as your average BSN member.

That is why it would be very hard to justify why the VS would jump into Shep's arms at the beginning of ME3. I hope it doesnt happen.

"Anderson explained everything to me" is one thing but that doesnt mean the VS should suddenly be sorry he didnt join Shepard on Horizon. That would be very out of character.