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[Made Nightwing]

darkness reborn wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

I'm sorry, but that's how it goes. I'd lay a hundred to one odds that Liara will retain her plot armour from previous games.

[ slams door and plays Metallica ]

Stop sulking and come back to the forum immediately!

[Made Nightwing]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...


I'm sorry, but that's how it goes. I'd lay a
hundred to one odds that Liara will retain her plot armour from previous
games.

Finally something we can agree on. I think they might be planning to use her in spin off games in some capacity. Kind of like Flemeth in the DA series.

Wasn't Flemeth voiced by Captain Janeway from Star Trek: Voyager?

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...


There's a difference between saying "you betrayed the Alliance" and calling someone a "traitor". Kaidan never said the word "traitor". And Shepard IS betraying the Alliance by working for an avowed enemy of the Alliance, i.e., Cerberus.

 Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we believed in. You betrayed the Alliance. You betrayed me.
     Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we stood for!

Perhaps not "traitor" in so many words.  But that's essentially the definition

Yeah, SHepard (and maybe Garrus) show up with Cerberus personell and equipment  But they're shooting at the scary aliens hauing the colonists off!  and their husk minions!  And they get the gun emplacement working and drive off their ship!  They saved teh colony!  The first one in two years not to get completely stripped!  This is not the reputation Cerberus has.  They destroy colonies with their mad scientist experiments, not save them!  

Seeing this would be like unto seeing Superman and Lex Luthor working together to stop an alien invasion.  Are Lois and Jimmy going to assume Supes has gone Dark Side?  Or will they wonder if there's something else going on?

Now we're comparing Shepard to Superman? 

1) Wears a distinct costume
2) Often in the presence of other superheroic beings in gaudy and/or skintight outfits
3) Saves worlds, if not the whole galaxy, on a semiregular basis
4) Is stronger, faster, and tougher than any ordinary human being
5) has died at least once
Fail to see the problem here 

Still need a reason why Shepard shooting at the BEMs making off with the colonists and not assisting them was conveniently overlooked.

Kaidan never says "You're a traitor who's forgotten your loyalties". If you're going to be mad at somebody, be mad at what they actually said, not your worse-sounding paraphrase.

But Kaidan does say "You betrayed everything we stood for"  Ergo "traitor"
Kaidan also says "You've changed, but I still know where my loyalties lay"  Strongly implying that Kaidan is still loyal to the Alliance, but Shepard is not.

SO what I said is a combination of two lines.  But they are in fact, what Kaidan (and Ashley) said.

.

Well, Anderson and Hackett don't JOIN Cerberus either. Tali and Garrus aren't Alliance, so they can do whatever they want. But Kaidan and Ashley are Alliance soldiers. So just ditching the Alliance and joining Shepard is a much trickier proposition than it is for Tali and Garrus. Which Shepard knows perfectly well, yet extends the ridiculous invitation anyway. 

Shepard (my Shepard, at least) did not join Cerberus either.  He tells Garrus he fully expects Cerberus to betray him at some point.  He tells Miranda "This isn't a Cerberus project" when she comments on how this is the best Cerberus Project she's been on.  Others seem to understand that Shep is working with Cerberus under duress, but the VS is conveniently kept in the dark about that, thanks largely to Plot Hammer.

The invitation is ridiculous, and I've said many times I have no problem with them not signing on.  Or even disapproving of working with Cerberus.  I do disapprove of them leapoing to the conclusion that SHepard has betrayed the Alliance and joined Cerberus, when Shepard can so zero inclination to be anything but hostile towards Cerberus all through ME1 and even some sections of ME2.  It's only when talking to certain individuals, like the VS, that SHep suddenly gets all "they're not so bad"

Modifié par iakus, 01 août 2011 - 10:44 .

[whywhywhywhy]

iakus wrote...

 Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we believed in. You betrayed the Alliance. You betrayed me.
     Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we stood for!

Perhaps not "traitor" in so many words.  But that's essentially the definition

Betray
1. to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.
2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.
3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

Traitor
1.a person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust.
2. a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country.

Just because they didn't use the word traitor doesn't mean the VS didn't call him one.  If Shepard is accused of betraying the VS, the alliance and etc.  Then he's a traitor by definition according to the VS, put in context the VS did in fact call him a traitor.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 01 août 2011 - 11:33 .

[Siansonea]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Siansonea, making some good points. But as much as I agree with them, I believe you also understand that we're all RPing as as individuals. @whywhywhywhy's logic chain makes sense for his Shepards, your logic makes sense for yours. There is no one perfect scenario.

But that's the thing, I'm not looking at the situation from Shepard's point of view, I'm looking at it from the perspective of a third party, not involved in the situation. Each of my Shepards have a different response to the VS, some are conciliatory, others are argumentative, depending on the Shepard. My take on the dynamics between the characters is independent of the point of view of my Shepards.

[Siansonea]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
I'm still waiting for you to make a legitimate point.
When you construct an actual logical scenario, I'll respond, but pretty much everything you say is a haphazard collection of misquotes, assumptions and false conclusions based on false perceptions.

Then you should have a easy time ripping me a new one, that you haven't is evidence of the contrary.

The absence of a thing is not evidence of its opposite. Please don’t try that logic in school.

Siansonea II wrote...
Those things are self-evident, I certainly don't need to point them out again. Especially since you just ignore all the perfectly rational observations made by people who have disagreed with you in this thread. All your arguments boil down to a simple "but it's Shepard!!!!"

No. You've simply convinced yourself of that.

Hmmm, something tells me there’s an example of "but it's Shepard!!!! syndrome in the very next section...

Siansonea II wrote...
And you can stop with the innuendo any time.

innuendo ? You make it sound dirty they were just jabs at you for these comments "In any case, stop speculating about my psychological profile, because I can pretty much guarantee that you'll be off the mark. You simply don't have enough information. " and "Gee, and usually you're so rational and objective."  If we look at your Shepard comments they do carry a hint of man hate.  They certainly lack rationale of the situation from Shepard's perspective.

There it is. The situation from Shepard’s perspective. I understand Shepard’s perspective just fine. And so do you. And so does everyone. But I’m not looking at the situation through Shepard’s eyes, or Kaidan’s eyes or Ashley’s eyes, I’m looking at the situation with my OWN eyes. I consider EACH of the characters’ individual point of view, and I’ve determined that the VS is unjustly crucified for what they’re saying on Horizon. All this “airlock” business, for merely stating the obvious: that Shepard, in the company of an anti-Alliance criminal organization, is BETRAYING THE ALLIANCE. But when you look at it from Shepard’s point of view, and ONLY Shepard’s point of view, it becomes the variations on a theme of “b¡tches be hasslin’ me, man” and “but it’s Shepard!!!!!!”

You said I was off the mark that my conclusion was false. I didn't think it would bother you unless it was true.
I'll stop since I know it bothers you.

Siansonea II wrote...
You're just making yourself look like an ass.

Sorry. Defense mechanism to make sure noone likes me.

Whatever, that’s your problem. But whatever psychological crosses we each must bear, I’m pretty sure they’re all off-topic.

[Siansonea]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

iakus wrote...

 Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we believed in. You betrayed the Alliance. You betrayed me.
     Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we stood for!

Perhaps not "traitor" in so many words.  But that's essentially the definition

Betray
1. to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.
2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.
3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

Traitor
1.a person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust.
2. a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country.

Just because they didn't use the word traitor doesn't mean the VS didn't call him one.  If Shepard is accused of betraying the VS, the alliance and etc.  Then he's a traitor by definition according to the VS, put in context the VS did in fact call him a traitor.

Reaching
1. What you're doing.
2. Using definitions to illustrate a point is condescending and dumb.

And none of this addresses the point that Shepard, you know, IS betraying the Alliance. Or did you think the Alliance doesn't care if their people fake their deaths to work with anti-Alliance criminal organizations? Because that's what it looks like. No one with a brain is going to buy Shepard's "resurrection" story, no matter how "true" it is from the player's third-person-omniscient viewpoint. Anyone who buys that story without proof is either drunk on the Shepard Kool-Aid or just gullible in general. It's refreshing that the VS shows neither of these tendencies on Horizon. It's a shame more people don't appreciate that the VS has backbone that other characters don't have. As much as I'm not a Tali fan, the one thing I do appreciate about her is that even though she does join Shepard's crew, she does not just gloss over the whole Cerberus business.

[K_Tabris]

Restoring trust?

One of my Shepards will probably be single at the end of ME3 unless VS makes a damn good case for Horizon. There was no room for discussion at all; only stubborn ignorance.

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


There's a difference between saying "you betrayed the Alliance" and calling someone a "traitor". Kaidan never said the word "traitor". And Shepard IS betraying the Alliance by working for an avowed enemy of the Alliance, i.e., Cerberus.

 Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we believed in. You betrayed the Alliance. You betrayed me.
     Kaidan: You turned your back on everything we stood for!

Perhaps not "traitor" in so many words.  But that's essentially the definition

Yeah, SHepard (and maybe Garrus) show up with Cerberus personell and equipment  But they're shooting at the scary aliens hauing the colonists off!  and their husk minions!  And they get the gun emplacement working and drive off their ship!  They saved teh colony!  The first one in two years not to get completely stripped!  This is not the reputation Cerberus has.  They destroy colonies with their mad scientist experiments, not save them!  

Seeing this would be like unto seeing Superman and Lex Luthor working together to stop an alien invasion.  Are Lois and Jimmy going to assume Supes has gone Dark Side?  Or will they wonder if there's something else going on?

Now we're comparing Shepard to Superman? 

1) Wears a distinct costume
2) Often in the presence of other superheroic beings in gaudy and/or skintight outfits
3) Saves worlds, if not the whole galaxy, on a semiregular basis
4) Is stronger, faster, and tougher than any ordinary human being
5) has died at least once
Fail to see the problem here 

Still need a reason why Shepard shooting at the BEMs making off with the colonists and not assisting them was conveniently overlooked.

Kaidan never says "You're a traitor who's forgotten your loyalties". If you're going to be mad at somebody, be mad at what they actually said, not your worse-sounding paraphrase.

But Kaidan does say "You betrayed everything we stood for"  Ergo "traitor"
Kaidan also says "You've changed, but I still know where my loyalties lay"  Strongly implying that Kaidan is still loyal to the Alliance, but Shepard is not.

SO what I said is a combination of two lines.  But they are in fact, what Kaidan (and Ashley) said.

.

Well, Anderson and Hackett don't JOIN Cerberus either. Tali and Garrus aren't Alliance, so they can do whatever they want. But Kaidan and Ashley are Alliance soldiers. So just ditching the Alliance and joining Shepard is a much trickier proposition than it is for Tali and Garrus. Which Shepard knows perfectly well, yet extends the ridiculous invitation anyway. 

Shepard (my Shepard, at least) did not join Cerberus either.  He tells Garrus he fully expects Cerberus to betray him at some point.  He tells Miranda "This isn't a Cerberus project" when she comments on how this is the best Cerberus Project she's been on.  Others seem to understand that Shep is working with Cerberus under duress, but the VS is conveniently kept in the dark about that, thanks largely to Plot Hammer.

The invitation is ridiculous, and I've said many times I have no problem with them not signing on.  Or even disapproving of working with Cerberus.  I do disapprove of them leapoing to the conclusion that SHepard has betrayed the Alliance and joined Cerberus, when Shepard can so zero inclination to be anything but hostile towards Cerberus all through ME1 and even some sections of ME2.  It's only when talking to certain individuals, like the VS, that SHep suddenly gets all "they're not so bad"

Yeah, it's unfortunate that the Plot Hammer falls on the just and the unjust alike. My whole point all along has been that Shepard really bungled the diplomacy check on Horizon. Kaidan mildly rebukes Shepard for betraying what they stood for (let's face it, it's not like weapons were drawn or something), and strongly implies that Shepard's loyalties are misplaced (which they ARE). And yet people are throwing the VS out of airlocks, shooting them in the face, and all sorts of ridiculous things, all because they had the audacity to point out that Shepard is doing something extremely out of character and ethically questionable (to say the least). Playercharacteritis. They can't see Shepard as just another character in the story, everything is filtered through that over-identification with Shepard.

[redbaron76]

People seem to go over the fact that Shepard is betraying alliance by working for cerberus or with cerberus. Either way you like it shepard is in a way traitor. So blaming VS for their attitude on horizon is illogical and childish. Seems to me that Siansonea II and I have been trying to get this point across many people who try to blabe vs for saying what is the truth, and being in denial that from any point of view be it Third person, VS or SHepard's it is very clear that shepard is commiting treason even if it is for a good cause. And it seems to stem from the fact that they believe that cerebrus was black ops oof alliance. And as we can see fom comic books The illusive man was lone survivor of a black ops that left alliance and formed cerberus. There fore cerberus was never part of alliance.

[Siansonea]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Restoring trust?

One of my Shepards will probably be single at the end of ME3 unless VS makes a damn good case for Horizon. There was no room for discussion at all; only stubborn ignorance.

Stubborn ignorance ≠ disagreeing with you because you're WRONG.

"You betrayed everything we stood for!"

You did.

"I know where my loyalties lie."

He does. Your loyalty is to Cerberus? Really? Something tells me the Illusive Man is going to betray YOU in 3...2...1...

[K_Tabris]

Never said that Shepard wasn't partially a traitor. Unlike Anderson in ME:Retribution, however, Shepard is able to look at the bigger picture and work with a temporary ally s/he'd rather not.

Ashley (and Kaidan) seem to be 'too noble' to work with terrorists, and like Anderson would rather not dirty their hands. This is what differentiates Shepard from others, and why Shepard is the hero of the story, not anyone else.

Not every game or Shepard is going to have the same flavor. In the case of a renegadized Kaidan, for example, I would expect an opportunity of dialogue between the two, providing Kaidan with a chance to see a different point of view. All I can expect is for VS and Shepard to agre to disagree and move on with mutual respect. But I hesitate to refrain from blaming the VS in part for the lousy exchange on Horizon.

Edit: @ Siam.. I am not necesarily disagreeign with you nor am I one of those Cerberus apologists.

Modifié par NovinhaShepard, 02 août 2011 - 12:15 .

[redbaron76]

You can not excuse treason. No mather how noble the cause was. And yes both shepard and VS are responsible on how the whole horizon thing came out. For me personaly I think it came out that way becaude vs had direct orders from anderson to say that to shepard.

[K_Tabris]

Treason can become a minor issue when the extinction of the entire galaxy is a possibility.

Or I could throw in the civil disobedience argument, but that doesn't seem necessary.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it's unfortunate that the Plot Hammer falls on the just and the unjust alike. My whole point all along has been that Shepard really bungled the diplomacy check on Horizon. Kaidan mildly rebukes Shepard for betraying what they stood for (let's face it, it's not like weapons were drawn or something), and strongly implies that Shepard's loyalties are misplaced (which they ARE). And yet people are throwing the VS out of airlocks, shooting them in the face, and all sorts of ridiculous things, all because they had the audacity to point out that Shepard is doing something extremely out of character and ethically questionable (to say the least). Playercharacteritis. They can't see Shepard as just another character in the story, everything is filtered through that over-identification with Shepard.

I submit that the rebuke is much more than "mild", and I (with Ash at least) got the impression that guns may have been drawn if the odds weren't 3-1 against the VS.  As I've been saying on this and other threads, I really hope there's more to the story than "The Plot demands it".  It's not just Shep's Diplomacy check.  The whole scene is fail.

Depending on your RP style, Shepard's loyalties are not misplaced and may only be working with Cerberus because there is literally no other option.  Loyalty is not misplaced if you're operating under duress.

RE:  Shepard is acting out of character:  YES!  Shepard is acting out of character in working with Cerberus (unless Shepard in ME1 was a stone cold renegade)!  That's the whole point!  That's Superman working with Lex Luthor!  How does that happen?  Why are they teaming up?  Why is Cerberus saving a colonoy?  Why isn't the VS asking questions?  Why isn't Shepard providing answers?  The VS is one of maybe six or seven individuals in the entire galaxy Shepard can trust to know and understand what's going on here!

[Siansonea]

I remember the first time I played Horizon. I was SHOCKED by what happened. I was playing my goody-two-shoes Boy Scout choirboy Liaramancer Vanguard, Devon Shepard, who had saved Kaidan on Virmire. I made all the "Paragon" dialog choices. Here’s how I recall that playthrough:

Delan: No! Don't let them get away!
Shepard: There's nothing we can do. They're gone.
Delan: Half the colony's in there! They took Egan and Sam and... and Lilith! Do something!
Shepard: I didn't want it to end this way. I did what I could.
Miranda: (consoles Shepard)
Delan: Shepard? Wait. I know that name. Sure, I remember you. You're some type of big Alliance hero.
Kaidan: Commander Shepard. Captain of the Normandy. The first human Spectre. Savior of the Citadel. You're in the presence of a legend, Delan. And a ghost.
Delan: All the good people we lost, and you get left behind. Figures. Screw this. I'm done with you Alliance types.
Kaidan: I thought you were dead, Commander. We all did.
Shepard: It's been too long, Kaidan. How've you been?
Siansonea [to TV screen]: You did NOT just say that Shepard.
Kaidan: Is that all you have to say? You show up after two years and just act like nothing happened. I would've followed you anywhere, Commander. Thinking you were gone... it was like losing a limb. Why didn't you try to contact me? Why didn't you let me know you were alive?
Shepard: I was out for two years. You've moved on with your career and your life. Why reopen old wounds?
Siansonea [to TV screen]: YOU DID NOT JUST SAY THAT SHEPARD.
Kaidan: I did move on. At least, I thought I did. But now we've got reports about you and Cerberus.
Miranda: (questions reports)
Kaidan: Alliance intel thought that Cerberus might be behind the missing human colonies. They got a tip this colony might be the next one to get hit. Anderson stonewalled me, but there were rumors that you weren't dead. That you were working for the enemy.
Shepard: Our colonies are disappearing. The Alliance turned its back on them. Cerberus is the only group willing to do something about it.
Siansonea [to TV screen]: WHEN DID YOU BECOME PRO-CERBERUS, SHEPARD?
Kaidan: You can't really believe that! We both know what Cerberus is like. What they're capable of. I wanted to believe the rumors that you were alive, but I never expected anything like this. You turned your back on everything we stood for!
Shepard: Kaidan, you know me. You know I'd only do this for the right reason. You saw it yourself. The Collectors are targetting human colonies and they're working with the Reapers.
Siansonea [to TV screen]: This would be a good time to mention the husks, Kaidan was in stasis, there’s no telling what he actually witnessed.
Kaidan: I want to believe you, Shepard. But I don't trust Cerberus. They could be using the threat of a Reaper to manipulate you. What if they're behind it? What if they're working with the Collectors?
Party Member: (comment about Kaidan's doubts)
Shepard: You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of the facts.
Siansonea [to TV screen]: And you're letting Cerberus' version of the facts get in the way of what you KNOW about Cerberus’ history, Shepard!
Kaidan: Maybe. Or maybe you feel like you owe Cerberus because they saved you. Maybe you're the one who's not thinking straight. You've changed. But I still know where my loyalties lie. I'm an Alliance solider. Always will be. I've got to report back to the Citadel. They can decide if they believe your story or not.
Siansonea [to TV screen]: I’m thinkin’ NOT.
Shepard: I could use someone like you in my crew, Kaidan. It'll be just like old times.
Siansonea [throws controller at TV screen]: YOU DID NOT JUST SAY THAT SHEPARD!
Kaidan: No, it won't. I'll never work for Cerberus. Goodbye, Shepard. And be careful.
Siansonea [to TV screen]: Good for you, Kaidan.
Shepard: Joker — send the shuttle to pick us up. I've had enough of this colony.
Siansonea [to TV screen]: Who is this person and what did they do with Shepard? Hey Miranda, about that control chip you “didn’t” put in...

[AVPen]

redbaron76 wrote...

You can not excuse treason. No mather how noble the cause was.

Again.... just like when Shepard mutinied and stole the Normandy from the Council and Alliance and the VS was perfectly fine to go along with it? <_<

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, it's unfortunate that the Plot Hammer falls on the just and the unjust alike. My whole point all along has been that Shepard really bungled the diplomacy check on Horizon. Kaidan mildly rebukes Shepard for betraying what they stood for (let's face it, it's not like weapons were drawn or something), and strongly implies that Shepard's loyalties are misplaced (which they ARE). And yet people are throwing the VS out of airlocks, shooting them in the face, and all sorts of ridiculous things, all because they had the audacity to point out that Shepard is doing something extremely out of character and ethically questionable (to say the least). Playercharacteritis. They can't see Shepard as just another character in the story, everything is filtered through that over-identification with Shepard.

I submit that the rebuke is much more than "mild", and I (with Ash at least) got the impression that guns may have been drawn if the odds weren't 3-1 against the VS.  As I've been saying on this and other threads, I really hope there's more to the story than "The Plot demands it".  It's not just Shep's Diplomacy check.  The whole scene is fail.

Depending on your RP style, Shepard's loyalties are not misplaced and may only be working with Cerberus because there is literally no other option.  Loyalty is not misplaced if you're operating under duress.

RE:  Shepard is acting out of character:  YES!  Shepard is acting out of character in working with Cerberus (unless Shepard in ME1 was a stone cold renegade)!  That's the whole point!  That's Superman working with Lex Luthor!  How does that happen?  Why are they teaming up?  Why is Cerberus saving a colonoy?  Why isn't the VS asking questions?  Why isn't Shepard providing answers?  The VS is one of maybe six or seven individuals in the entire galaxy Shepard can trust to know and understand what's going on here!

Well, regardless of Shepard's motivations, the end result is the same. Shepard is working with Cerberus. For whatever reason. And that is a BIG DEAL. It's not like Shepard switched car insurance companies. Shepard switched sides. At least, that's what it looks like. And nothing Shepard says really does anything to dispel that notion.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 août 2011 - 12:38 .

[Siansonea]

AVPen wrote...

redbaron76 wrote...

You can not excuse treason. No mather how noble the cause was.

Again.... just like when Shepard mutinied and stole the Normandy from the Council and Alliance and the VS was perfectly fine to go along with it? <_<

I'm pretty sure all of the individuals involved in that escapade faced some sort of judgment from the Alliance brass after it was all said and done. And the ringleader of that effort was Captain Anderson, either the new Councilor, or advisor to the Councilor.

[K_Tabris]

This is what makes the idea of the trial so interesting. Assuming we will get to see any of the trial, at the very least, we will get to see Earth's perceptions of Shepard at the beginning of the game. At some point, VS must find a reason to overlook the alliance with Cerberus. Perhaps the benefit of time and retrospect makes VS realize how impulsive and ignorant their snap judgement on Horizon was.

The letter from Kaidan, at least gives some hope that he won't be stuck on his principles, and will see why Shepard acted the way she did.

[Siansonea]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

This is what makes the idea of the trial so interesting. Assuming we will get to see any of the trial, at the very least, we will get to see Earth's perceptions of Shepard at the beginning of the game. At some point, VS must find a reason to overlook the alliance with Cerberus. Perhaps the benefit of time and retrospect makes VS realize how impulsive and ignorant their snap judgement on Horizon was.

The letter from Kaidan, at least gives some hope that he won't be stuck on his principles, and will see why Shepard acted the way she did.

Or Shepard will get a medical scan and realize that there was a control chip in place the whole time, causing the epic case of Derpitis she had in ME2.

[K_Tabris]

Or, you know the writing of certain lines. And scenes. And end bosses for that matter.

[whywhywhywhy]

[quote]whywhywhywhy wrote...
[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
I'm still waiting for you to make a legitimate point.
When you construct an actual logical scenario, I'll respond, but pretty much everything you say is a haphazard collection of misquotes, assumptions and false conclusions based on false perceptions. [/quote] Then you should have a easy time ripping me a new one, that you haven't is evidence of the contrary.[/quote]
[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
The absence of a thing is not evidence of its opposite. Please don’t try that logic in school.[/quote]It was a assertion and a challenge feel free to go back a few pages and take me up on it.  I doubt you can or will, your technique is avoidance and misdirection and it's very plain to see.
[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Those things are self-evident, I certainly don't need to point them out again. Especially since you just ignore all the perfectly rational observations made by people who have disagreed with you in this thread. All your arguments boil down to a simple "but it's Shepard!!!!"[/quote] No. You've simply convinced yourself of that.[/quote]
[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Hmmm, something tells me there’s an example of "but it's Shepard!!!! syndrome in the very next section...[/quote] Let's examine what you've said here first.  "but it's shepard!!!" what does this mean ?  If you had any grasp on the situation you'd understand I look at the situation as a whole and simply disagree with you.  It should be evident because I can point out flaws in the rationale of the VS and defend the position of Shepard because I find no flaws in his position given the flow of the game.  Shepard even says something similiar to Jack that supports my claims(and others) of why he works with them if you talk to her after taking Miranda's side.   Choose the paragon option.  That's a big hint as to why he doesn't run off, who will fund his mission ?

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
And you can stop with the innuendo any time.
[/quote]innuendo ? You make it sound dirty they were just jabs at you for these comments "In any case, stop speculating about my psychological profile, because I can pretty much guarantee that you'll be off the mark. You simply don't have enough information. " and "Gee, and usually you're so rational and objective."  If we look at your Shepard comments they do carry a hint of man hate.  They certainly lack rationale of the situation from Shepard's perspective.[/quote]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
There it is. The situation from Shepard’s perspective. I understand Shepard’s perspective just fine. And so do you.
And so does everyone. [/quote] I take it your in agreement ? Then we have nothing further to discuss.  If not ? Feel free to dive right in to my posts on the past pages. 

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
But I’m not looking at the situation through Shepard’s eyes, or Kaidan’s eyes or Ashley’s eyes, I’m looking at the situation with my OWN eyes. I consider EACH of the characters’ individual point of view, and I’ve determined that the VS is unjustly crucified for what they’re saying on Horizon.[/quote] your pov comes across incredibly subjective when viewed in the full context of the game's story and events that happen up to and including Horizon.  Not to mention the events that happen afterwards.

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
All this “airlock” business, for merely stating the obvious: that Shepard, in the company of an anti-Alliance criminal organization, is BETRAYING THE ALLIANCE. But when you look at it from Shepard’s point of view, and ONLY Shepard’s point of view, it becomes the variations on a theme of “b¡tches be hasslin’ me, man” and “but it’s Shepard!!!!!!” [/quote]You keep saying all these emotional outbursts as if that will make you right. But all I see is the lack of a rational argument concisely ordered by logic based on the events and contextual hints and clues the story presents within itself. 

You consider him a traitor, I ask how ?  While I contend giving them classified info, detail talks of alliance military structural weaknesses and capabilities, revealing top secret plans and all that to be a betrayal.  Shpard did none of this and gave no indication he would be willing to.   In your mind simply being with Cerberus is a betrayal. Working to stop the collectors from abducting further colonies is not a good enough reason.  Working with them to defeat agents of the reapers is not a good enough reason.  Yes Shepard was made aware of the connection to the reapers on horizon.  Saving the lives of the colonists on horizon is not a good enough reason.   Saving Ash's life wasn't a good enough reason for Shepard to work with Cerberus.  How could he have possibly been there if he didn't use their resource(the only thing he's guilty of) Spectres aren't funded, the alliance only cared after they found out Cerberus was involved.  What was his alternative ?  Send a letter and wait for the reapers ?  I consider the Cerberus debacle laid to rest.

As far as the VS point of view ? How do I come up with so many reasons in this thread and the other ashely thread if I'm not considering the VS's pov.  I've considered it and feel they are in the wrong and their stance makes little sense.  How can one scrutinize anything without critiquing it ?  I've laid out my critisms you've yet to respond to them. 

Well with something other then “but it’s Shepard!!!!!!” and "[i]b¡tches be hasslin’ me, man.” and all the other emotional drivel.

[quote]You said I was off the mark that my conclusion was false. I didn't think it would bother you unless it was true.
I'll stop since I know it bothers you.

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
You're just making yourself look like an ass.[/quote] Sorry. Defense mechanism to make sure noone likes me.

[/quote]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Whatever, that’s your problem. But whatever psychological crosses we each must bear, I’m pretty sure they’re all off-topic. [/quote] Was sarcasm, didn't notice ?

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 02 août 2011 - 01:32 .

[MyOpinionSucks]

Siansonea II wrote...

Stubborn ignorance ≠ disagreeing with you because you're WRONG.

"You betrayed everything we stood for!"

You did.

"I know where my loyalties lie."

He does. Your loyalty is to Cerberus? Really? Something tells me the Illusive Man is going to betray YOU in 3...2...1...

I'm afraid I take exception to that, unless you'd care to define exactly what your Shepard stood for.

As an Alliance marine my Shepard stood for the defence of humanity and her interests, and as a Spectre it was to 'preserve and protect galactic stability at all costs'.

And frankly, I'm having a hard time trying to see how he turned his back on that. I think the key difference between the VS and Shepard is scale. The VS is loyal to the Alliance whereas Shepard is loyal to what the Alliance (or more broadly the Council, I think) is supposed to represent. If the Alliance is supposed to be protecting these colonies and they're not managing to do it, then Shepard is going to go and take care of it himself.

Garrus puts it nicely, actually; 'When it comes down to it I don't think I'm a very good Turian. When a good Turian hears a bad order he follows it. He might complain, but he knows his place. I just don't see the point in staying quiet and polite, not when the galaxy's at stake.'

The logical conclusion to this, as I see it, is that no party's really in the wrong. At the very least it's not black and white, and for that reason I don't think trust is real crux of the issue. I think even the most spiteful Shepard knows that if they go into combat together the VS has his back and vice versa. The real problem is just personality. Can Shepard bring himself to like the VS on a personal level after they justifiably (if not quite accurately) called him a traitor? That's something that every player has to decide for themself because it's totally subjective. I also don't think it'll be an issue for the VS, as I imagine they'll have been filled in by ME3.

For my part I thought it was kind of a slap in the face, even if Shepard did do a remarkably ****** poor job of explaining himself. I think the VS had every reason to ask Shepard what the hell he thought he was playing at and I'd by no means expect them to swallow whatever Shepard tells them without question (if they did so they wouldn't be the same characters that made ME1 so great, especially given the pretty suspect company Shepard now keeps), but I thought it was pretty out of order not to at least give Shepard the benefit of the doubt given their history and the immediate circumstances of their reunion. Doubly so when you consider that literally every other person in the galaxy does. Hell, you can blow up an entire star system and Hackett just says 'Hey bro it's cool, you gotta do what you gotta do'.

In the end though I think it's rather childish to expect either side to apologise. It's an issue that needs to be resolved (mostly because it's drama, and drama makes a story rather than any in-universe operational problems the schism could create) but an apology is not the way to do it; rather the overt demonstration that both parties are still the same people they used to be and the realisation of that fact on both parts. Which is something I don't think can feasibly happen in a single conversation. Actions speak louder than words.

Apologies if I let myself ramble on a little there. I'm a perennial lurker but this topic is so ripe for discussion it's hard to keep things brief.

[jeweledleah]

whywhywhy... you do realize that shepard is either a man OR a woman. its still shepard though with the same lines and same options for actions. implying man hate, just because someone finds fault with Shepard's actions? consider thinking that one through, please.

you know have read the transcript without the voice behind it, VS's words actually sounds a lot more reasonable and not over emotional at all. in Kaidan's case I'm almost starting to wonder if all those Carth accusations ended up with giving him a bit too much of Carth like direction? Shepard gives more of an explanation to Tali and Garrus then to VS. Shepard has a choice to specify that Cerberus is not trusted, but they are necessary evil. Shepard on horizon instead either outright defends Cerberus or goes "but you know me! just trust me!"

and paraphrases don't help. at all. you think you are about to say something that actualy makes sence but what comes out of Shepard's mouth? it does make you wonder about control chips, because for the first few times I played through that scene, the only thing I could think was - what the hell did Shepard just say? that's not what I thought that paraphrase meant?

paraphrase issue though is prevalent through entire game, not just horizon :/