1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
But the Illusive Man is the one who first told Shepard of the connection. But this is also the same Illusive Man who leaked the location of the VS on Horizon to lure the Collectors there. I know, I know, “the ends justify the means”. I’m sure Lilith would be glad to know that when she was processed into Reaper Food, that it was because the Illusive Man thought he might get some strategic advantage from the gambit. How very noble of the Illusive Man to sacrifice civilians for his own purposes. That’s sarcasm, by the way.[/quote]I never said I agreed with it but your "meta" gaming we didn't know about that fact until after Horizon not before we met the VS. 

Anyway to answer your rhetoric directly I make no claim in defense of TIM, I don't agree with his actions.  What does this have to do with Shepard ?  You seem to be grasping at straws.  No one has claimed Cerberus to be anything but what they are.[/quote]

What does it have to do with Shepard? TIM is the source of virtually ALL of Shepard's intel, through dossiers and through direct face-to-face communication. So by doing everything that TIM asks her to, Shepard is supporting Cerberus and being an instrument of the Illusive Man's will. I can't believe that wasn't obvious.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Because you see Cerberus as just another faction, just another resource, just another employer. THEY’RE NOT. They’re an ANTI-ALLIANCE CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION. That whole “anti-Alliance” part by definition makes them more than just another resource. Insert list of Cerberus atrocities here. [/quote]I don't consider them an Employer but I do consider them a resource and as I pointed out earlier Paragon shepard does as well.  I'm not trying to defend Cerberus stop pretending that I was.[/quote]

Well, "you" might not have been defending Cerberus per se, but Shepard was defending them to the VS. Naturally the VS would balk at swallowing such a bitter pill. And you can't say somebody is a "resource" if you're basically doing everything they're telling you to do. When somebody tells you what to do, and you do it, then you are THEIR resource.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
I dunno, Blood Magic? Oh wait, that was a rhetorical question, wasn’t it. You don’t come up with arguments based on the VS’ point of view, you simply dismiss them as invalid when other people point them out.[/quote] Right that's why despite emotional your response are or subjective their content,  I always respond with a Logical rebuttal. Try it sometime.[/quote]

I have. Plenty of it. But it seems to sail right over your head.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Well, you would think that. Because to you, Shepard being with Cerberus is no big deal. To you, Shepard should be able to do whatever he wants, because later in the game in turns out he was right all along. That is not logical. That is not rational.[/quote]Who said it was no big deal ?  I said Shepard has no choice if he wants to combat the threat, what other options are presented to fight the threat ?  I pointed out why.  Are you even reading the posts or are you doing this on purpose because you can't bring up a good point ?[/quote]

What other options INDEED? Does Shepard even bother to find out? Does Shepard ever bother to verify anything that Cerberus is telling her? Nope, she just does whatever TIM says, even AFTER she finds out he lured the Collectors to Horizon, even AFTER she learns that TIM knew that the Collector Ship was a trap, even AFTER she finds out what Cerberus did to Jack when she was a child. Even after all of that, and everything that happened in the first game, Shepard never once considers that she may have picked the wrong horse in the race, or that there are things she doesn't know about regarding TIM's agenda.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
I missed a few wall-of-text posts, that’s true, but tell me, what pearls of wisdom did I overlook? What game-changers did you offer up that clearly show that the VS was smoking crack and that Shepard is bulletproof? Because I would really like you to repost those. [/quote]No.  If your trying to argue I have no proof or I've made weak arguments the burden of proof is on you.[/quote]

Because you'll spend 30 minutes typing a wall of text, but won't spend 30 seconds copying a link to an earlier post, or simply quoting it?

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
You think you have the power to “bother” me, child? Dream on.[/quote] Then why the derogatory response ?  I could go further into and provide you an actual assestment but no worries I'll drop it. 
[/quote][/quote]

Like many people of your generation, you assume everyone thinks the same way you do, you assume you know what motivates a person because you feel you've got a good handle on what motivates YOU. T'ain't necessarily so, Sunshine. Your perceptions have been so wildly off the mark it's laughable. That whole "man hating" business is a perfect example. You accuse me of some sort of agenda against men, when I am defending a character who could be either male or female (Kaidan/Ashley) against a character who could be either male or female (Shepard). Yeah, real sharp there, Chief.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 août 2011 - 04:26 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Siansonea II wrote...

In the interest of having smaller walls of texts, I'll respond to these in parts.

How convient to avoid points you have no argument for but refuse to admit.

Siansonea II wrote...
Just because you don't have to follow the rules doesn't mean you should break every rule you come across, or toss loyalties aside just because you 'can'.

You said he betrayed the alliance.  My question to you is how does a spectre betray their homeworld or military when they act in response of their mission which was given to them to complete any way they see fit ? I'll save you the trouble.  The authority given to Spectres comes from the Citadel Council a council humanity and the alliance is part of.  If the alliance submits itself to the council's governance how can a Spectre betray the alliance in maintaining galactic stability and preservation ? 

But Shepard's a alliance soldier you say ?  Fine, but you haven't proven that his association with Cerberus is a Chargable alliance offense.  Let's be clear he wasn't with Cerberus they funded his mission.

Siansonea II wrote...
 So, because the game has a railroad plot, Shepard is Just and Right to follow the railroad without question?

What choice does he have ?  On a more serious note I examined each step he could have taken maybe more exist but given the lack of support from the Council and the alliance what choice does he have to complete his mission and protect the human colonies.  How does defense of human colonies constitute betrayal ?

Siansonea II wrote...
Who knows? Shepard never tries to find out.

agree to disagree.

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, if Shepard had articulated anything like that to the VS, I could see somebody calling the VS obstinate. But Shepard does not explain herself well at all to the VS, and it's no wonder the VS isn't too receptive to what she's saying.

What could be said to someone who had already made up their mind about the situation.  If the VS hadn't already made up their mind I'm sure their would have been a bit of shock at seeing him not the anger, not initially.  Instead the VS walks out cooly talking him up then attacks him.  Instantly.

Siansonea II wrote...
Any number of scenarios can fit these circumstances. The Reapers wanted Shepard's body, but Cerberus took it. Maybe they rebuilt Shepard with all those handy dandy cybernetic implants to use as a bargaining chip with the Reapers. But anyone who trusts Cerberus is a fool, and Shepard clearly trusts them to some extent, she buys their story hook, line, and sinker. She doesn't ever strike out on her own and verify anything TIM says.

Notice how you didn't answer the questions I presented ?  Why am I surpprised most of your responses are like this.

Siansonea II wrote...
And yet, I think that if there truly was something earthshakingly profound, you'd simply copy and paste it here. Or link to the post in question. By vaguely gesturing toward some "other post" you're just trying to distract me, while cheaply stealing some "credibility" for your argument. It's easy to say "Oh, I refuted everything already in another post. You didn't read it? You should read it. Go find it." How about you point to the exact post in question?

No.  the burden of proof is on you.  You aren't even directly answering the questions I present in the recent posts.  Why am I going to go digging up threads and posts for you ?  If your so confident have at it.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 02 août 2011 - 07:47 .

[Siansonea]

[quote]whywhywhywhy wrote...

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...

In the interest of having smaller walls of texts, I'll respond to these in parts.

[/quote]How convient to avoid points you have no argument for but refuse to admit.[/quote]

Oh, I still addressed them all. I just did them in three different posts instead of one. Now don't you feel silly?

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Just because you don't have to follow the rules doesn't mean you should break every rule you come across, or toss loyalties aside just because you 'can'.[/quote]You said he betrayed the alliance.  My question to you is how does a spectre betray their homeworld or military when they act in response of their mission which was given to them to complete any way they see fit ? I'll save you the trouble.  The authority given to Spectres comes from the Citadel Council a council humanity and the alliance is part of.  If the alliance submits itself to the council's governance how can a Spectre betray the alliance in maintaining galactic stability and preservation? 

But Shepard's a alliance soldier you say?  Fine, but you haven't proven that his association with Cerberus is a Chargable alliance offense.  Let's be clear he wasn't with Cerberus they funded his mission.[/quote]

How can a Spectre betray the council? Well, Saren did. Saren allied with an anti-Council faction: the geth. And was stripped of his Spectre status as a result. Just because you're a Spectre doesn't mean you don't have to answer to anyone. And it's not like the Council didn't give Shepard some leeway, just in case she was on the up and up. They told her to go play with Cerberus in the Traverse. They were more than accommodating to Shepard, even though working with Cerberus is still a betrayal. Cerberus stands against the Council and the Alliance. But just in case Shepard knows something the Council doesn't, they allowed her to do what she needed to do. But it doesn't make it less of a betrayal. The Council is just allowing for extenuating circumstances and incomplete information. Unfortunately, the VS doesn't even have as much information as the Council and Anderson have, they're pretty much completely in the dark about everything.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
 So, because the game has a railroad plot, Shepard is Just and Right to follow the railroad without question?[/quote]
What choice does he have ?  On a more serious note I examined each step he could have taken maybe more exist but given the lack of support from the Council and the alliance what choice does he have to complete his mission and protect the human colonies.  How does defense of human colonies constitute betrayal ?[/quote]

Defending human colonies isn't the issue. Working for Cerberus is the issue. You're confusing one for the other. Shepard could be rescuing kittens from trees, but as long as he's doing it from a Cerberus ship with a Cerberus crew and a Cerberus boss, it's still a betrayal. The problem is WORKING FOR CERBERUS, not the tasks Cerberus is sending Shepard to do. You're trying to cloud the issue.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Who knows? Shepard never tries to find out.[/quote] agree to disagree.

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Well, if Shepard had articulated anything like that to the VS, I could see somebody calling the VS obstinate. But Shepard does not explain herself well at all to the VS, and it's no wonder the VS isn't too receptive to what she's saying.[/quote]What could be said to someone who had already made up their mind about the situation.  If the VS hadn't already made up their mind I'm sure their would have been a bit of shock at seeing him not the anger, not initially.  Instead the VS walks out cooly talking him up then attacks him.  Instantly.[/quote]

Well, to be fair, Shepard is there working for CERBERUS. The VS is all too familiar with Cerberus. Of COURSE his/her mind is made up about Cerberus. Last time the VS checked, so was Shepard's. But now Shepard is defending Cerberus. Something's fishy here, and it's not the VS' job to take a leap of faith, it's Shepard's job to explain the situation in a way that is believable and persuasive. Shepard does neither. 

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Any number of scenarios can fit these circumstances. The Reapers wanted Shepard's body, but Cerberus took it. Maybe they rebuilt Shepard with all those handy dandy cybernetic implants to use as a bargaining chip with the Reapers. But anyone who trusts Cerberus is a fool, and Shepard clearly trusts them to some extent, she buys their story hook, line, and sinker. She doesn't ever strike out on her own and verify anything TIM says.[/quote]Notice how you didn't answer the questions I presented ?  Why am I surpprised most of your responses are like this.[/quote]

What question did I not answer? You're fond of these very vague accusations that I'm ignoring some epic win question of yours, but you don't cite the questions themselves. If it were me, I would come back with "I asked you X, Y and Z, and you didn't respond to those points."

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
And yet, I think that if there truly was something earthshakingly profound, you'd simply copy and paste it here. Or link to the post in question. By vaguely gesturing toward some "other post" you're just trying to distract me, while cheaply stealing some "credibility" for your argument. It's easy to say "Oh, I refuted everything already in another post. You didn't read it? You should read it. Go find it." How about you point to the exact post in question?[/quote]No.  the burden of proof is on you.  You aren't even directly answering the questions I present in the recent posts.  Why am I going to go digging up threads and posts for you ?  If your so confident have at it.
[/quote]

No it isn't. You want an answer to a question, you need to ask the damn question. Not just make some claim that you asked a question earlier and I should spend an hour and a half of my valuable time trying to track down which one it was. Because chances are, I wouldn't be able to tell which of your extremely long-winded diatribes contained these alleged questions. What's wheat, what's chaff? I have no idea. It all sounds like egocentric drivel to me. If I don't answer a question to your satisfaction, the proper response is this: "I asked you X, Y, and Z, and you dodged the question." Try THAT next time, otherwise you look like you're just trying to create the illusion of being a good debater, rather than actually debating well.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 août 2011 - 08:09 .

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

My big problem is that Shepard believes everything the Illusive Man says, even though he has "I'm a bastard, don't trust me" written all over his face. When Ashley/Kaidan asks Shepard "What if they're manipulating you?" I wanted Shepard to wonder the same thing, but she doesn't. Even after Shepard finds out all the shenanigans the Illusive Man pulls on Horizon and the Collector Ship, she still stays on the Cerberus Railroad Plot. The Illusive Man WAS manipulating Shepard, and even though she could see several examples of it, she still didn't bother to do anything about it, or even question TIM's motives and agenda. How could she possibly think that she could know everything she needs to know about Cerberus, or trust that they're sending her where she needs to go? For all Shepard knows, the creepy guy with the freaky Husk eyes and the cigarettes is doing all of this just to keep her busy on some fool's errand, while the Reapers are planning something even more sinister somewhere else. Maybe they "brought her back" to be a tool for the Reapers. Maybe all those "upgrades" are just like Saren's, something that will allow a Reaper to "assume direct control" of her body at the right moment. But that never occurs to Shepard, she just does whatever TIM says. Because she's Shepard, I guess. Because she just "automatically knows" what the best course of action is. Or because she has a control chip that turns off her ability to reason as soon as something blatantly obvious happens.

Believe me, I'm with you on the Cerberus bit.  It's just another reason why Horizon fails so bad.  I would have found it incredibly ironic if at the end of ME2 you learn that TIM's been working for the Reapers the whole time and the Collectors were actually trying to save the colonies and hide them from Cerberus.

But at the same time, Shepard really is caught in a bind.  Cerberus, however you slice it, is the only chance to stop the colonies form being taken.  And the Collectors really are working with teh Reapers (though that was eerily precient of TIM to know that so far in advance)

And the VS is calling Shepard a traitor (excuse me, accusing Shepard of "betraying everything they stood for") as well as forgetting his loyalties (excuse me, reminding Shepard that "I still know where my loyalties are") for trying to save a colony.  Using questionable allies, sure.  But barring some truly disturbing rumors, there's no evidence whatsoever that Shepard has done anything more than hitch a ride to Horizon on a Cerberus ship.

But remember, this person helped steal the Alliance's most advanced warship from the Citadel.  Throwing away a career and becoming a fugitive based on nothing more than SHepard's visions.  And Ash, at least, should understand what it's like to be blacklisted for events that spiraled out of control.

Modifié par iakus, 02 août 2011 - 08:27 .

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

My big problem is that Shepard believes everything the Illusive Man says, even though he has "I'm a bastard, don't trust me" written all over his face. When Ashley/Kaidan asks Shepard "What if they're manipulating you?" I wanted Shepard to wonder the same thing, but she doesn't. Even after Shepard finds out all the shenanigans the Illusive Man pulls on Horizon and the Collector Ship, she still stays on the Cerberus Railroad Plot. The Illusive Man WAS manipulating Shepard, and even though she could see several examples of it, she still didn't bother to do anything about it, or even question TIM's motives and agenda. How could she possibly think that she could know everything she needs to know about Cerberus, or trust that they're sending her where she needs to go? For all Shepard knows, the creepy guy with the freaky Husk eyes and the cigarettes is doing all of this just to keep her busy on some fool's errand, while the Reapers are planning something even more sinister somewhere else. Maybe they "brought her back" to be a tool for the Reapers. Maybe all those "upgrades" are just like Saren's, something that will allow a Reaper to "assume direct control" of her body at the right moment. But that never occurs to Shepard, she just does whatever TIM says. Because she's Shepard, I guess. Because she just "automatically knows" what the best course of action is. Or because she has a control chip that turns off her ability to reason as soon as something blatantly obvious happens.

Believe me, I'm with you on the Cerberus bit.  It's just another reason why Horizon fails so bad.  I would have found it incredibly ironic if at the end of ME2 you learn that TIM's been working for the Reapers the whole time and the Collectors were actually trying to save the colonies and hide them from Cerberus.

But at the same time, Shepard really is caught in a bind.  Cerberus, however you slice it, is the only chance to stop the colonies form being taken.  And the Collectors really are working with teh Reapers (though that was eerily precient of TIM to know that so far in advance)

And the VS is calling Shepard a traitor (excuse me, accusing Shepard of "betraying everything they stood for") as well as forgetting his loyalties (excuse me, reminding Shepard that "I still know where my loyalties are") for trying to save a colony.  Using questionable allies, sure.  But barring some truly disturbing rumors, there's no evidence whatsoever that Shepard has done anything more than hitch a ride to Horizon on a Cerberus ship.

But remember, this person helped steal the Alliance's most advanced warship from the Citadel.  Throwing away a career and becoming a fugitive based on nothing more than SHepard's visions.  And Ash, at least, should understand what it's like to be blacklisted for events that spiraled out of control.

I haven't forgotten any of that. It's just that situation doesn't add up, if you're on the outside looking in. Cerberus showing up on Horizon is exactly what the VS was told to expect. Then the attack happens, the VS is frozen in stasis by the seeker swarms, and comes out of stasis only after the attack is over. Obviously they see the Collector ship taking off, but what else did they see before they arrive at the clearing where Shepard is talking with Delan? The VS sees a very suspicious situation, and Shepard's right smack in the middle of it. Yet people seem to think that the VS is supposed to believe everything Shepard says even though Shepard has been out of contact for two years. Two years is a long time. Shepard's body was never recovered over Alchera, at least, not by the Alliance. The VS doesn't know where Shepard has been for the last two years, only that Shepard hasn't communicated with the VS. The VS would naturally be skeptical of any "Cerberus rebuilt me while I was in a coma" story, because it sounds like a bad soap opera plotline. And the VS is so mild in his/her rebuke of Shepard it's not even funny, yet people are acting like the VS is some kind of jerk. Shepard SHOULD be called out on working with Cerberus. Shepard DID "betray what they stood for" and appears to have forgotten where her loyalties should lie. That's the way the situation looks if you don't know what Shepard knows. And Shepard could have explained all that. But she doesn't. She just makes the situation worse by adding insult to injury. She's expecting too much from the VS, and I can't figure out why she would. Does she really think everyone's just supposed to believe everything she says, even when it sounds impossible? Does she expect people to overlook something as egregious as working with Cerberus just because she says "you can trust me"? Who does she think she is?  That "Hero of the Citadel" business was really epic—two years ago. You're not a god, Shepard, you're just a woman, and you need to explain yourself. Not just dismiss legitimate questions like "what if Cerberus is manipulating you?"

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 août 2011 - 09:08 .

[paul165]

But it is surely fairly self evident that Shepard is not working with the Collectors on the grounds of not having 4 glowing eyes - no matter how traumatised the VS is by their experiences (read abject failure to complete the assigned task) (s)he should be able to notice that.

Having worked out that Shepard is not a collector looking at the battlefield and the decomposing corpses of the enemy forces on the battlefield and the ship fleeing under fire from ground defenses should be enough to at least eliminate the Cerberus is working with the Collectors theory.

If they managed to get that far by using their eyes the whole tone of the conversation changes from 'Cerberus is evil and launched the attack!' to 'what the hell is going on?'

Regarding the attitude of the Council to Shepard - yes they distrust their former Spectre for extremely good reasons but if the Turian Councillor is willing to take more on faith than the VS something very strange is going on - something not excused by 'you have to look at it from the point of view of the VS'.

[whywhywhywhy]

Siansonea II wrote...
And what bearing do these “hints and clues” have on what Kaidan/Ashley knows on Horizon at that moment when he/she runs into Shepard?

I can't even guess at what you're trying to say here. I'm sure it made sense in your head, but the words on the page in this order in this context don't make any sense to me. You think this is some kind of awesome rebuttal, you think it's reasonable, and rational and logical, but it's incoherent. Who is "they"? How about using names instead of pronouns? It starts out sounding like you're talking about the VS, but the last line sounds like you're talking about Shepard—it's a mess.

I've made no secret of being ill and as I type this I was falling asleep because well it doesn't take much effort to respond to you.  Anyway to answer your question:
Who are They ? The VS.  Isn't that what we are discussing ?  Despite how I typed it, if you used the Contextual hints and clues you would have found the answer to your question. It's simple.  It's how you take into account the VS's view.

Siansonea II wrote...
From the events of the first game. From Admiral Kahoku, in life and in death. From all the data found on Edolus, Binthu and Nepheron. From Corporal Toombs. From every thing and every person touched by Cerberus in the first game. From the Council when Shepard arrives there early in ME2 before Horizon. From Captain Anderson. From everything in the game. That's where I get the FACT that working for CERBERUS is a BETRAYAL. You can try to construct some fuzzy logic ends-justify-the-means badass douchebag Renegade fantasy that Cerberus is "misunderstood", but the rest of the galaxy ain't buyin' it.

Not only do you fail to make a point against what I said, fail to give an answer you still atempt to push your view on me as my argument.(I've bolded your comments that apply)   You little paragraph may make you warm and fuzzy defiant even but you just didn't manage to get a answer in there.^  I'm no talking about emotional responses that's infinite, What I want here is it defined in the Alliance that Cerberus funding a mission, heck ALL of what he did, is listed as an alliance crime ? Given how you harped on about cerbie this cerbie that it should be very easy to point out where in the story he was accused of a crime by the alliance.  The only thing that comes remotely close is a request to detain him for interrogation and it was denied.  Just like your argument.

Siansonea II wrote...
Wouldn't surprise me. He's a massive douche. He sent Shepard on all sorts of questionable missions in the first game, and the whole Arrival mission was fishy from the word "go". Seriously, Shepard had to go alone? WTF?

We aren't discussing arrival.  Moving along.

Siansonea II wrote...
When Shepard shows up on the Citadel, there is a quite tense exchange between Shepard and the Council, and Captain Anderson is rather reticent with Shepard too. He won't tell her anything about what Kaidan/Ashley is doing, for instance. Not exactly the same level of camaraderie that they shared in the first game. Anderson is keeping Shepard at arm's length. Shepard isn't immediately clapped in irons because of her erstwhile Spectre status and her role in saving the Council from Sovereign, but they are very suspicious of her and basically tell Shepard to stay out of Council space if she wants to play nice with Cerberus.

I think the council does a vey good job of presenting their position.  Which is the colonies are in the Terminus systems and they can't help when asked about it, this is their response to a renegade or Paragon Shepard.  That's 1 point that matters that you can't argue against.  The next is no matter how you go about it Anderson supports you.  It doesn't matter new council, old council, Councilor or advisor he speaks to Shepard's defense.  He makes it clear he doesn't trust Cerberus but who does ? As one of two points of contact you get(the third is barred) from the Alliance I'd say your ok with the Alliance.  The Council tries to reinstate you no matter what, why reinstate a criminal ?  All the rest of it doesn't matter (as well as being incorrectly characterized) when your earlier position was to solicit help from the Council as an alternative to working with Cerberus.  I think we can both admit it's pointless to try.
So:
Alliance
Council
Cerberus resources
Got any proof or theories to the alliance offering resources ?

Siansonea II wrote...
So, even though the Alliance thinks Shepard is dead, they're supposed to know that Cerberus has been experimenting on Shepard, bringing her back to life using who-knows-what technology for who-knows-what ultimate purpose, then "approach" the reawakened Shepard and tell her "don't you dare work for Cerberus?" The Alliance doesn't even know that Shepard is alive until her working with Cerberus is established.

Your off track.  The original contested view was that no reason was good enough to accept Cerberus's resources.  I said not good enough for you but no Alliance personel arrested Shepard for being a traitor.  Then you posted this.  The reason the posts are growing in size is because you can't stay on topic and your reaching and branching out trying to convert many of the points within the argument into something you can "win."  Problem is I don't debate to win.

Siansonea II wrote...
They don't have a chance to make a pitch to her. And I think that the Council, Captain Anderson and Tali make it VERY clear to Shepard that showing up in the company of Cerberus does NOT look good for her.

And do we see how she handled it ?  Tali's a classy lady.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 02 août 2011 - 11:40 .

[young fox]

Siansonea II wrote...

My big problem is that Shepard believes everything the Illusive Man says, even though he has "I'm a bastard, don't trust me" written all over his face. When Ashley/Kaidan asks Shepard "What if they're manipulating you?" I wanted Shepard to wonder the same thing, but she doesn't. Even after Shepard finds out all the shenanigans the Illusive Man pulls on Horizon and the Collector Ship, she still stays on the Cerberus Railroad Plot. The Illusive Man WAS manipulating Shepard, and even though she could see several examples of it, she still didn't bother to do anything about it, or even question TIM's motives and agenda. How could she possibly think that she could know everything she needs to know about Cerberus, or trust that they're sending her where she needs to go? For all Shepard knows, the creepy guy with the freaky Husk eyes and the cigarettes is doing all of this just to keep her busy on some fool's errand, while the Reapers are planning something even more sinister somewhere else. Maybe they "brought her back" to be a tool for the Reapers. Maybe all those "upgrades" are just like Saren's, something that will allow a Reaper to "assume direct control" of her body at the right moment. But that never occurs to Shepard, she just does whatever TIM says. Because she's Shepard, I guess. Because she just "automatically knows" what the best course of action is. Or because she has a control chip that turns off her ability to reason as soon as something blatantly obvious happens.

Nowhere is it mentioned that Shepard believes every word that The Illusive Man says. For the most part, he's just a means to an end: when everyone abandons the threat of the Reapers except Cerberus, where else should he turn? It is not a task a single man can complete without any sort of company behind him.

Also, in the end, Shepard has the choice to completely disregard TIM's opinion; because he knows, if that action is taken, that it's straying too far from his own agenda - an agenda that TIM up untill that point so far has furthered in as many ways as possible.

Cerberus are imperfect, and Shepard would be the first to acknowledge it. But when everyone else turns their back on you, where else are you gonna go?

[whywhywhywhy]

Siansonea II wrote...
What does it have to do with Shepard? TIM is the source of virtually ALL of Shepard's intel, through dossiers and through direct face-to-face communication. So by doing everything that TIM asks her to, Shepard is supporting Cerberus and being an instrument of the Illusive Man's will. I can't believe that wasn't obvious.

It's obvious that you continue to attempt to redirect the conversation into meaingless points.  We were talking about what Shepard knows, witnessed first hand.  Like Veetor's recording.  Not the intel provided to him by TIM.  He has zero bearing on this issue.  After all how could he take info from the infamous cerberus at face value ? We have to view it with the same sceptism you have against... well everything that makes sense.  So in discounting TIM and his intel as unreliable considering the source.  We only included what Shepard KNOWS from first hand experience.

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, "you" might not have been defending Cerberus per se, but Shepard was defending them to the VS. Naturally the VS would balk at swallowing such a bitter pill. And you can't say somebody is a "resource" if you're basically doing everything they're telling you to do. When somebody tells you what to do, and you do it, then you are THEIR resource.

He was not.  He said they weren't the enemy in the fight to protect the colonists and guess what ?  He was right!  Shepard his resource ?  Nah.  TIM is the one with the intel network and contacts....wait that sounds oddly familiar someone said that.  Oh yeah!  Paragon Shepard says that

Siansonea II wrote...I have. Plenty of it. But it seems to sail right over your head.

Actually I've been been batting down your emotional responses one after the other.  Your only issue is that I disagree with you.  You respond with nothing that ties back into anything but your own feelings.  My views are based on the game.

Siansonea II wrote...
What other options INDEED? Does Shepard even bother to find out? Does Shepard ever bother to verify anything that Cerberus is telling her? Nope, she just does whatever TIM says, even AFTER she finds out he lured the Collectors to Horizon, even AFTER she learns that TIM knew that the Collector Ship was a trap, even AFTER she finds out what Cerberus did to Jack when she was a child. Even after all of that, and everything that happened in the first game, Shepard never once considers that she may have picked the wrong horse in the race, or that there are things she doesn't know about regarding TIM's agenda.

I think it's pretty clear he has no other options. I think I've been pretty generous in my attempts to limit my discussions to the aspects you presented but you keep flip flopping.  I thought the approach was only things the VS would know ?  "Meta" gaming and all that.  You break your own rules so why shoud I follow them ?  That said I don't want to talk about any new subjects until you start directly answering questions.  Countering them so we can then move on to the next point and no your emotional responses don't count.  Opinions based on the events in the game that prove or disprove the point in question are welcomed.

Siansonea II wrote...
Because you'll spend 30 minutes typing a wall of text, but won't spend 30 seconds copying a link to an earlier post, or simply quoting it?

Not GONNA happen.  Clear enough ?  You do it.

Siansonea II wrote...
Like many people of your generation, you assume everyone thinks the same way you do, you assume you know what motivates a person because you feel you've got a good handle on what motivates YOU. T'ain't necessarily so, Sunshine. Your perceptions have been so wildly off the mark it's laughable. That whole "man hating" business is a perfect example. You accuse me of some sort of agenda against men, when I am defending a character who could be either male or female (Kaidan/Ashley) against a character who could be either male or female (Shepard). Yeah, real sharp there, Chief.

Blah blah blah.  blahblahblah.  I'm not touching this I've repeatily said I'm not continuing with this.  Why do you insist ?  If I don't bother you why do you continue ?  Just drop it.

[lumen11]

Yeah, I'm with Ashley/Kaiden on this one. We all know there was no other way - Bioware wouldn't let us - but to everybody else it must have looked like Sheppard sold his soul to the devil (the devil being Cerberus... . I don't blame them for not trusting Sheppard.

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...

But it is surely fairly self evident that Shepard is not working with the Collectors on the grounds of not having 4 glowing eyes - no matter how traumatised the VS is by their experiences (read abject failure to complete the assigned task) (s)he should be able to notice that.

Having worked out that Shepard is not a collector looking at the battlefield and the decomposing corpses of the enemy forces on the battlefield and the ship fleeing under fire from ground defenses should be enough to at least eliminate the Cerberus is working with the Collectors theory.

If they managed to get that far by using their eyes the whole tone of the conversation changes from 'Cerberus is evil and launched the attack!' to 'what the hell is going on?'

Regarding the attitude of the Council to Shepard - yes they distrust their former Spectre for extremely good reasons but if the Turian Councillor is willing to take more on faith than the VS something very strange is going on - something not excused by 'you have to look at it from the point of view of the VS'.

The Turian Councilor's agenda is "go away, Shepard".

The VS agenda is "what's going on, Shepard".

So as you can see, less faith is required for the Turian Councilor.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

I haven't forgotten any of that. It's just that situation doesn't add up, if you're on the outside looking in. Cerberus showing up on Horizon is exactly what the VS was told to expect. Then the attack happens, the VS is frozen in stasis by the seeker swarms, and comes out of stasis only after the attack is over. Obviously they see the Collector ship taking off, but what else did they see before they arrive at the clearing where Shepard is talking with Delan? The VS sees a very suspicious situation, and Shepard's right smack in the middle of it. Yet people seem to think that the VS is supposed to believe everything Shepard says even though Shepard has been out of contact for two years. Two years is a long time. Shepard's body was never recovered over Alchera, at least, not by the Alliance. The VS doesn't know where Shepard has been for the last two years, only that Shepard hasn't communicated with the VS. The VS would naturally be skeptical of any "Cerberus rebuilt me while I was in a coma" story, because it sounds like a bad soap opera plotline. And the VS is so mild in his/her rebuke of Shepard it's not even funny, yet people are acting like the VS is some kind of jerk. Shepard SHOULD be called out on working with Cerberus. Shepard DID "betray what they stood for" and appears to have forgotten where her loyalties should lie. That's the way the situation looks if you don't know what Shepard knows. And Shepard could have explained all that. But she doesn't. She just makes the situation worse by adding insult to injury. She's expecting too much from the VS, and I can't figure out why she would. Does she really think everyone's just supposed to believe everything she says, even when it sounds impossible? Does she expect people to overlook something as egregious as working with Cerberus just because she says "you can trust me"? Who does she think she is?  That "Hero of the Citadel" business was really epic—two years ago. You're not a god, Shepard, you're just a woman, and you need to explain yourself. Not just dismiss legitimate questions like "what if Cerberus is manipulating you?"

If I'm on the outside looking in, what I'm seeing is:

Commander Shepard, Alliance hero, Savior of the Citadel, who very well may have stormed a half dozen or so Cerberus bases, killing dozens of their operatives, saw firsthand the horrific experiments they have performed.  Now inexplicably back from the dead and working for Cerberus.  This is a disturbing event, don't get me wrong on this.  But assuming the Shepard from ME1 was someone who held Cerberus in contempt, what is the logical possibilities?

1)  This isn't the Commander.  This is a lookalike, a clone, perhaps a Terminator-style robot wearing Shepard's face (the latter seems the most likely of the three)

2) This is the Commander, but working under duress.  There's a control chip, loved ones are threatened, Perhaps he's under some sort of mind control

3) This is the Commander, but he's being duped.  this is all an elaborate hoax perpetrated by Cerberus somehow.  The VS actually has one line suggesting this.

4) It is the Commander and he and he is working with Cerberus under ulterior motives.  He's infiltrating them, using them for some reason.  Maybe he's twisting the collective arm of a bunch of Cerberus operatives and is actually runnin ght show.  Or perhaps they've formed a temporary alliance against an even worse foe (crazy, huh?)

4) This is Commander Shepard, who has in two years decided to wholeheartedly throw in with an organization which  just two short years ago he was gunning down with glee due to all the sick experiments they performed.  He turns his back on everything he fought for and has gone terrorist.

If you're not certain which possibility to go with, ask questions?

"Have you turned your back on the Alliance"?  "Where are your loyalties?" "Why are you working with Cerberus now?" (a  much better question than "Why haven't you called?  imo)  Even "What the frak just happened here?"

The VS did act like a jerk.  Tossing about accusations of betrayal and broken loyalties is not a minor rebuke.  No, Shepard's not off the hook completely  Shep should have given a better explanation, but the VS should have asked for one too.  Shep deserved that much, given their past.  Not for the VS to automatically assume that the rumors were all true because Shepard was on Horizon. 

[Siansonea]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

I've made no secret of being ill and as I type this I was falling asleep because well it doesn't take much effort to respond to you.  Anyway to answer your question:
Who are They ? The VS.  Isn't that what we are discussing ?  Despite how I typed it, if you used the Contextual hints and clues you would have found the answer to your question. It's simple.  It's how you take into account the VS's view.

Would have been so much easier just to restate the original idea without ambiguity.

Siansonea II wrote...
From the events of the first game. From Admiral Kahoku, in life and in death. From all the data found on Edolus, Binthu and Nepheron. From Corporal Toombs. From every thing and every person touched by Cerberus in the first game. From the Council when Shepard arrives there early in ME2 before Horizon. From Captain Anderson. From everything in the game. That's where I get the FACT that working for CERBERUS is a BETRAYAL. You can try to construct some fuzzy logic ends-justify-the-means badass douchebag Renegade fantasy that Cerberus is "misunderstood", but the rest of the galaxy ain't buyin' it.

Not only do you fail to make a point against what I said, fail to give an answer you still atempt to push your view on me as my argument.(I've bolded your comments that apply)   You little paragraph may make you warm and fuzzy defiant even but you just didn't manage to get a answer in there.^  I'm no talking about emotional responses that's infinite, What I want here is it defined in the Alliance that Cerberus funding a mission, heck ALL of what he did, is listed as an alliance crime ? Given how you harped on about cerbie this cerbie that it should be very easy to point out where in the story he was accused of a crime by the alliance.  The only thing that comes remotely close is a request to detain him for interrogation and it was denied.  Just like your argument.

Yes, clearly most people in the game have short memories. Cerberus is the enemy. Anderson might gloss over it because of Shepard’s history, but if anything that makes me think less of Anderson than think better of Shepard. Hey Councilor Anderson, how’s Admiral Kahoku’s widow these days? She doing alright?

Siansonea II wrote...
When Shepard shows up on the Citadel, there is a quite tense exchange between Shepard and the Council, and Captain Anderson is rather reticent with Shepard too. He won't tell her anything about what Kaidan/Ashley is doing, for instance. Not exactly the same level of camaraderie that they shared in the first game. Anderson is keeping Shepard at arm's length. Shepard isn't immediately clapped in irons because of her erstwhile Spectre status and her role in saving the Council from Sovereign, but they are very suspicious of her and basically tell Shepard to stay out of Council space if she wants to play nice with Cerberus.

I think the council does a vey good job of presenting their position.  Which is the colonies are in the Terminus systems and they can't help when asked about it, this is their response to a renegade or Paragon Shepard.  That's 1 point that matters that you can't argue against.  The next is no matter how you go about it Anderson supports you.  It doesn't matter new council, old council, Councilor or advisor he speaks to Shepard's defense.  He makes it clear he doesn't trust Cerberus but who does ? As one of two points of contact you get(the third is barred) from the Alliance I'd say your ok with the Alliance.  The Council tries to reinstate you no matter what, why reinstate a criminal ?  All the rest of it doesn't matter (as well as being incorrectly characterized) when your earlier position was to solicit help from the Council as an alternative to working with Cerberus.  I think we can both admit it's pointless to try.
So:
Alliance
Council
Cerberus resources
Got any proof or theories to the alliance offering resources ?

We won’t ever know what the Alliance would have or could have offered, because Shepard was already with Cerberus when she showed up to talk to Anderson. Clearly the Alliance was doing something, because they sent Ashley/Kaidan to Horizon, and they probably sent other operatives to other colonies. So the Alliance wasn’t doing nothing. But regardless of what the Alliance could have, should have, or would have done, Shepard could have at least had the courtesy to let them be “the first bidder”. But Shepard just decided that Cerberus was the way to go, before even talking to anyone outside of Cerberus except for Tali, Prazza and Veetor. I don’t think any of those quarians is really an advocate for or expert on the Alliance.

Siansonea II wrote...
So, even though the Alliance thinks Shepard is dead, they're supposed to know that Cerberus has been experimenting on Shepard, bringing her back to life using who-knows-what technology for who-knows-what ultimate purpose, then "approach" the reawakened Shepard and tell her "don't you dare work for Cerberus?" The Alliance doesn't even know that Shepard is alive until her working with Cerberus is established.

Your off track.  The original contested view was that no reason was good enough to accept Cerberus's resources.  I said not good enough for you but no Alliance personel arrested Shepard for being a traitor.  Then you posted this.  The reason the posts are growing in size is because you can't stay on topic and your reaching and branching out trying to convert many of the points within the argument into something you can "win."  Problem is I don't debate to win.

If I get off track, it’s because I’m trying to figure out what you’re asking, and responding to what I think you’re saying. It’s easy to get off track.

Siansonea II wrote...
They don't have a chance to make a pitch to her. And I think that the Council, Captain Anderson and Tali make it VERY clear to Shepard that showing up in the company of Cerberus does NOT look good for her.

And do we see how she handled it ?  Tali's a classy lady.

I’m not generally a Tali fan, but I do at least appreciate the hard line she takes against Cerberus.

[Siansonea]

su66otnik wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

My big problem is that Shepard believes everything the Illusive Man says, even though he has "I'm a bastard, don't trust me" written all over his face. When Ashley/Kaidan asks Shepard "What if they're manipulating you?" I wanted Shepard to wonder the same thing, but she doesn't. Even after Shepard finds out all the shenanigans the Illusive Man pulls on Horizon and the Collector Ship, she still stays on the Cerberus Railroad Plot. The Illusive Man WAS manipulating Shepard, and even though she could see several examples of it, she still didn't bother to do anything about it, or even question TIM's motives and agenda. How could she possibly think that she could know everything she needs to know about Cerberus, or trust that they're sending her where she needs to go? For all Shepard knows, the creepy guy with the freaky Husk eyes and the cigarettes is doing all of this just to keep her busy on some fool's errand, while the Reapers are planning something even more sinister somewhere else. Maybe they "brought her back" to be a tool for the Reapers. Maybe all those "upgrades" are just like Saren's, something that will allow a Reaper to "assume direct control" of her body at the right moment. But that never occurs to Shepard, she just does whatever TIM says. Because she's Shepard, I guess. Because she just "automatically knows" what the best course of action is. Or because she has a control chip that turns off her ability to reason as soon as something blatantly obvious happens.

Nowhere is it mentioned that Shepard believes every word that The Illusive Man says. For the most part, he's just a means to an end: when everyone abandons the threat of the Reapers except Cerberus, where else should he turn? It is not a task a single man can complete without any sort of company behind him.

Also, in the end, Shepard has the choice to completely disregard TIM's opinion; because he knows, if that action is taken, that it's straying too far from his own agenda - an agenda that TIM up untill that point so far has furthered in as many ways as possible.

Cerberus are imperfect, and Shepard would be the first to acknowledge it. But when everyone else turns their back on you, where else are you gonna go?

Yes, Shepard can consider TIM to be a "means to an end", but Shepard would do well to recognize that the "end" has been provided by TIM as well. Shepard isn't running the show at all, she's just running around. Everything she does is at TIM's behest. And TIM might be stating a noble goal of stopping the colony abductions, but let's not kid ourselves, TIM's no altruist. Whatever it looks like on the outside, he has some kind of angle.

[lumen11]

Siansonea II wrote...


Yes, Shepard can consider TIM to be a "means to an end", but Shepard would do well to recognize that the "end" has been provided by TIM as well. Shepard isn't running the show at all, she's just running around. Everything she does is at TIM's behest. And TIM might be stating a noble goal of stopping the colony abductions, but let's not kid ourselves, TIM's no altruist. Whatever it looks like on the outside, he has some kind of angle.

I second.

It would be interesting to know how Bioware sees all this. Whether they've been purposefully trying to seduce us to Cerberus' point of view in ME2 to make a point about morality or whether they honestly wanted to show us that Cerberus and TIM aren't just bad people.

iakus wrote...


The VS did act like a jerk.
 Tossing about accusations of betrayal and broken loyalties is not a
minor rebuke.  No, Shepard's not off the hook completely  Shep should
have given a better explanation, but the VS should have asked for
one too.  Shep deserved that much, given their past.  Not for the VS to
automatically assume that the rumors were all true because Shepard was
on Horizon. 

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.
What would be the fun if everyone always did the sensible and proper thing.

Modifié par lumen11, 03 août 2011 - 01:09 .

[Siansonea]

[quote]whywhywhywhy wrote...

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
What does it have to do with Shepard? TIM is the source of virtually ALL of Shepard's intel, through dossiers and through direct face-to-face communication. So by doing everything that TIM asks her to, Shepard is supporting Cerberus and being an instrument of the Illusive Man's will. I can't believe that wasn't obvious.[/quote] It's obvious that you continue to attempt to redirect the conversation into meaingless points.  We were talking about what Shepard knows, witnessed first hand.  Like Veetor's recording.  Not the intel provided to him by TIM.  He has zero bearing on this issue.  After all how could he take info from the infamous cerberus at face value ? We have to view it with the same sceptism you have against... well everything that makes sense.  So in discounting TIM and his intel as unreliable considering the source.  We only included what Shepard KNOWS from first hand experience.[/quote]

I do like that at least Shepard goes to Freedom’s Progress, but I don’t like that Cerberus keeps Shepard on a short leash until after she agrees to work for Cerberus.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Well, "you" might not have been defending Cerberus per se, but Shepard was defending them to the VS. Naturally the VS would balk at swallowing such a bitter pill. And you can't say somebody is a "resource" if you're basically doing everything they're telling you to do. When somebody tells you what to do, and you do it, then you are THEIR resource.[/quote] He was not.  He said they weren't the enemy in the fight to protect the colonists and guess what ?  He was right!  Shepard his resource ?  Nah.  TIM is the one with the intel network and contacts....wait that sounds oddly familiar someone said that.  Oh yeah!  Paragon Shepard says that [/quote]

Which is why I think Shepard must have some kind of control chip. The Paragon Shepard I remember from the first game wouldn’t just jump on the Cerberus train unless she had exhausted every other option.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...I have. Plenty of it. But it seems to sail right over your head.[/quote]
Actually I've been been batting down your emotional responses one after the other.  Your only issue is that I disagree with you.  You respond with nothing that ties back into anything but your own feelings.  My views are based on the game. [/quote]

Your view seems to be that is perfectly okay for Shepard to climb into bed with Cerberus, and that nobody in the game should question Shepard’s decision to do so.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
What other options INDEED? Does Shepard even bother to find out? Does Shepard ever bother to verify anything that Cerberus is telling her? Nope, she just does whatever TIM says, even AFTER she finds out he lured the Collectors to Horizon, even AFTER she learns that TIM knew that the Collector Ship was a trap, even AFTER she finds out what Cerberus did to Jack when she was a child. Even after all of that, and everything that happened in the first game, Shepard never once considers that she may have picked the wrong horse in the race, or that there are things she doesn't know about regarding TIM's agenda. [/quote] I think it's pretty clear he has no other options. I think I've been pretty generous in my attempts to limit my discussions to the aspects you presented but you keep flip flopping.  I thought the approach was only things the VS would know ?  "Meta" gaming and all that.  You break your own rules so why shoud I follow them ?  That said I don't want to talk about any new subjects until you start directly answering questions.  Countering them so we can then move on to the next point and no your emotional responses don't count.  Opinions based on the events in the game that prove or disprove the point in question are welcomed.[/quote]

When you ask what other options Shepard has, you have to explore all those hypothetical situations. The game doesn’t show us what Shepard’s options are, because Shepard doesn’t ask for any, she just signs up with Cerberus after watching some video and talking to a flaky quarian. And a bunch of Cerberus operatives.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Because you'll spend 30 minutes typing a wall of text, but won't spend 30 seconds copying a link to an earlier post, or simply quoting it? [/quote] Not GONNA happen.  Clear enough ?  You do it.[/quote]

You’re the one who wants answers, but I guess you don’t them that badly. I don’t care about those questions. I don’t even know what the subtopic was. So yeah, you get nothing on that front.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Like many people of your generation, you assume everyone thinks the same way you do, you assume you know what motivates a person because you feel you've got a good handle on what motivates YOU. T'ain't necessarily so, Sunshine. Your perceptions have been so wildly off the mark it's laughable. That whole "man hating" business is a perfect example. You accuse me of some sort of agenda against men, when I am defending a character who could be either male or female (Kaidan/Ashley) against a character who could be either male or female (Shepard). Yeah, real sharp there, Chief.[/quote]Blah blah blah.  blahblahblah.  I'm not touching this I've repeatily said I'm not continuing with this.  Why do you insist ?  If I don't bother you why do you continue ?  Just drop it.
[/quote]
Now who’s bothered? Is it because of your relationship with your mother? Is it because you were traumatized by clowns on your 11th birthday? Perhaps the first girl you had a crush on turned out to be a killer robot from outer space?

Those are jokes, by the way. I don’t really think those things have anything to do with anything.

[whywhywhywhy]

Siansonea II wrote...
Oh, I still addressed them all. I just did them in three different posts instead of one. Now don't you feel silly?

No, should I ?

Siansonea II wrote...
Just because you don't have to follow the rules doesn't mean you should break every rule you come across, or toss loyalties aside just because you 'can'.

Post made by WHYWHYWHYWHY....You said he betrayed the alliance.  My question to you is how does a spectre betray their homeworld or military when they act in response of their mission which was given to them to complete any way they see fit ? I'll save you the trouble.  The authority given to Spectres comes from the Citadel Council a council humanity and the alliance is part of.  If the alliance submits itself to the council's governance how can a Spectre betray the alliance in maintaining galactic stability and preservation? 

But Shepard's a alliance soldier you say?  Fine, but you haven't proven that his association with Cerberus is a Chargable alliance offense.  Let's be clear he wasn't with Cerberus they funded his mission.

Siansonea II wrote...
How can a Spectre betray the council?

ROFL ^ wow....just wow.  I left that post of mine up there so you could see what I see.

Siansonea II wrote...  Well, Saren did. Saren allied with an anti-Council faction: the geth.

Run away look over here whywhywhywhy I know we were talking about the Alliance and how Shepard as a Spectre could have betrayed the alliance.  But I'll talk about Saren as if that was the issue and I can draw parellels from it.  FYI he was stripped for the events of Eden prime Tali's recording proved he was there which meant the dock worker's testimony of him killing Nihlus was true.  He killed a fellow spectre. Had nothing to do with only his sole involvement with the geth but that he used the geth to attack eden prime.  Not going any further into it then that it's pointless.

Siansonea II wrote...
And was stripped of his Spectre status as a result. Just because you're a Spectre doesn't mean you don't have to answer to anyone. And it's not like the Council didn't give Shepard some leeway, just in case she was on the up and up. They told her to go play with Cerberus in the Traverse. They were more than accommodating to Shepard, even though working with Cerberus is still a betrayal. Cerberus stands against the Council and the Alliance. But just in case Shepard knows something the Council doesn't, they allowed her to do what she needed to do. But it doesn't make it less of a betrayal. The Council is just allowing for extenuating circumstances and incomplete information. Unfortunately, the VS doesn't even have as much information as the Council and Anderson have, they're pretty much completely in the dark about everything.

We don't know everything the VS knows.

Siansonea II wrote...
Defending human colonies isn't the issue. Working for Cerberus is the issue. You're confusing one for the other. Shepard could be rescuing kittens from trees, but as long as he's doing it from a Cerberus ship with a Cerberus crew and a Cerberus boss, it's still a betrayal. The problem is WORKING FOR CERBERUS, not the tasks Cerberus is sending Shepard to do. You're trying to cloud the issue.

He can only defend the human colonies by using Cerberus Resources.  Tim says the collectors are attacking Horizon Shepard goes to check it out to see for himself and finds the Collectors attacking the colony and deals with it.  Using Cerberus resources to do this.  I recall you saying it wasn't worth it no matter the cost, so your shepard and the Vs wouldn't have helped the colonies ?

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, to be fair, Shepard is there working for CERBERUS. The VS is all too familiar with Cerberus. Of COURSE his/her mind is made up about Cerberus. Last time the VS checked, so was Shepard's. But now Shepard is defending Cerberus. Something's fishy here, and it's not the VS' job to take a leap of faith, it's Shepard's job to explain the situation in a way that is believable and persuasive. Shepard does neither.

Shepard doesn't defend Cerberus he blames the party responsible for the attacks he's trying to defend against.  In essence correcting the VS from making the mistake of blaming Cerberus for the attacks on the colony.  As evil as they can be Cerberus isn't responsible for every bad thing that happens.

Siansonea II wrote...
What question did I not answer? You're fond of these very vague accusations that I'm ignoring some epic win question of yours, but you don't cite the questions themselves. If it were me, I would come back with "I asked you X, Y and Z, and you didn't respond to those points."

You can provide an answer like a politican in which you respond when asked a question.  that doesn't mean you've answered the question.  Clear enough ?  Example ? Ok You claim Shepard a traitor to the alliance.  I ask you how they betrayed the ALLIANCE and you talk about Saren and the Council.  And what you said about that was wrong.  We clear ?  You never touched upon anything that explains how Shepard has betrayed the Alliance according to the alliance.  The only indication that anything was done was the request to interrogate him on his relationship with Cerberus and it was denied.  How can it be denied if he's a traitor ?

Siansonea II wrote...
No it isn't. You want an answer to a question, you need to ask the damn question. Not just make some claim that you asked a question earlier and I should spend an hour and a half of my valuable time trying to track down which one it was. Because chances are, I wouldn't be able to tell which of your extremely long-winded diatribes contained these alleged questions. What's wheat, what's chaff? I have no idea. It all sounds like egocentric drivel to me. If I don't answer a question to your satisfaction, the proper response is this: "I asked you X, Y, and Z, and you dodged the question." Try THAT next time, otherwise you look like you're just trying to create the illusion of being a good debater, rather than actually debating well.

Take your pick on the last few posts you responded to.  I've even provided examples were you either gloss over with an emotional response not supported by or based on the game's events or answer with something completely offtopic.  Their are no illusions you just fail to maintain an argument or support it.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 03 août 2011 - 01:15 .

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I haven't forgotten any of that. It's just that situation doesn't add up, if you're on the outside looking in. Cerberus showing up on Horizon is exactly what the VS was told to expect. Then the attack happens, the VS is frozen in stasis by the seeker swarms, and comes out of stasis only after the attack is over. Obviously they see the Collector ship taking off, but what else did they see before they arrive at the clearing where Shepard is talking with Delan? The VS sees a very suspicious situation, and Shepard's right smack in the middle of it. Yet people seem to think that the VS is supposed to believe everything Shepard says even though Shepard has been out of contact for two years. Two years is a long time. Shepard's body was never recovered over Alchera, at least, not by the Alliance. The VS doesn't know where Shepard has been for the last two years, only that Shepard hasn't communicated with the VS. The VS would naturally be skeptical of any "Cerberus rebuilt me while I was in a coma" story, because it sounds like a bad soap opera plotline. And the VS is so mild in his/her rebuke of Shepard it's not even funny, yet people are acting like the VS is some kind of jerk. Shepard SHOULD be called out on working with Cerberus. Shepard DID "betray what they stood for" and appears to have forgotten where her loyalties should lie. That's the way the situation looks if you don't know what Shepard knows. And Shepard could have explained all that. But she doesn't. She just makes the situation worse by adding insult to injury. She's expecting too much from the VS, and I can't figure out why she would. Does she really think everyone's just supposed to believe everything she says, even when it sounds impossible? Does she expect people to overlook something as egregious as working with Cerberus just because she says "you can trust me"? Who does she think she is? That "Hero of the Citadel" business was really epic—two years ago. You're not a god, Shepard, you're just a woman, and you need to explain yourself. Not just dismiss legitimate questions like "what if Cerberus is manipulating you?"

If I'm on the outside looking in, what I'm seeing is:

Commander Shepard, Alliance hero, Savior of the Citadel, who very well may have stormed a half dozen or so Cerberus bases, killing dozens of their operatives, saw firsthand the horrific experiments they have performed.  Now inexplicably back from the dead and working for Cerberus.  This is a disturbing event, don't get me wrong on this.  But assuming the Shepard from ME1 was someone who held Cerberus in contempt, what is the logical possibilities?

1)  This isn't the Commander.  This is a lookalike, a clone, perhaps a Terminator-style robot wearing Shepard's face (the latter seems the most likely of the three)

2) This is the Commander, but working under duress.  There's a control chip, loved ones are threatened, Perhaps he's under some sort of mind control

3) This is the Commander, but he's being duped.  this is all an elaborate hoax perpetrated by Cerberus somehow.  The VS actually has one line suggesting this.

4) It is the Commander and he and he is working with Cerberus under ulterior motives.  He's infiltrating them, using them for some reason.  Maybe he's twisting the collective arm of a bunch of Cerberus operatives and is actually runnin ght show.  Or perhaps they've formed a temporary alliance against an even worse foe (crazy, huh?)

4) This is Commander Shepard, who has in two years decided to wholeheartedly throw in with an organization which  just two short years ago he was gunning down with glee due to all the sick experiments they performed.  He turns his back on everything he fought for and has gone terrorist.

If you're not certain which possibility to go with, ask questions?

"Have you turned your back on the Alliance"?  "Where are your loyalties?" "Why are you working with Cerberus now?" (a  much better question than "Why haven't you called?  imo)  Even "What the frak just happened here?"

The VS did act like a jerk.  Tossing about accusations of betrayal and broken loyalties is not a minor rebuke.  No, Shepard's not off the hook completely  Shep should have given a better explanation, but the VS should have asked for one too.  Shep deserved that much, given their past.  Not for the VS to automatically assume that the rumors were all true because Shepard was on Horizon.

I understand what you’re saying, but let’s face it, Shepard is the one who has the explaining to do. It’s been two years. Where has Shepard been that whole time? I’m sorry, but if somebody tried to feed me a death-and-resurrection story, I’d laugh in their face. I think the VS showed admirable restraint on that score.

Shepard and the VS were Alliance Marines together, the VS is understandably upset that this person that they looked up to is sleeping with the enemy, for whatever reason. The VS does give Shepard an opportunity to say her piece, and she seems to downplay Cerberus or seemingly support Cerberus. That’s not okay. That’s a betrayal, that’s a shift in loyalty. But Shepard  is somehow supposed to be given a free pass for defecting to a criminal organization, and yet the VS is a huge jerk for saying “working for a criminal organization is a betrayal of everything we stood for” and “I know where my loyalties lie”. That seems disproportionate to me.

And regardless of whatever is going through the VS mind (and I’m sure many of your points had to occur to him/her) it’s clear that this person standing before the VS is not the Commander Shepard the VS once knew. That Shepard would never be so sanguine about ditching the Alliance and the Council. That Shepard would have turned to Cerberus only after exhausting every other avenue of support.

[whywhywhywhy]

I won't be available to post for a while.  I need to focus on getting better.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 03 août 2011 - 01:25 .

[Siansonea]

[quote]whywhywhywhy wrote...
*snip*
Post made by WHYWHYWHYWHY....You said he betrayed the alliance.  My question to you is how does a spectre betray their homeworld or military when they act in response of their mission which was given to them to complete any way they see fit ? I'll save you the trouble.  The authority given to Spectres comes from the Citadel Council a council humanity and the alliance is part of.  If the alliance submits itself to the council's governance how can a Spectre betray the alliance in maintaining galactic stability and preservation? 

But Shepard's a alliance soldier you say?  Fine, but you haven't proven that his association with Cerberus is a Chargable alliance offense.  Let's be clear he wasn't with Cerberus they funded his mission.[/quote]

I don’t know what Alliance law is, but I’m pretty sure they frown upon an Alliance soldier working for the guy that ordered the death of an Alliance Admiral, ordered the deaths of Alliance Marines on Akuze, ordered the deaths of Alliance Marines on Edolus, and tortured an Alliance Marine Corporal with thresher maw acid. Or maybe they don’t care. Maybe the VS and I are the only ones who care. I’m perfectly willing to accept that version of events. I think it’s a betrayal, and so does the VS. But hey, maybe the Alliance doesn’t mind people killing their personnel, I dunno, I’m not in the Alliance.

And yes, LET’S BE CLEAR. Cerberus did more than “fund her mission”. They GAVE HER THE MISSION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
How can a Spectre betray the council? [/quote] ROFL ^ wow....just wow.  I left that post of mine up there so you could see what I see.[/quote]

Am I missing something?

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...  Well, Saren did. Saren allied with an anti-Council faction: the geth.[/quote]
Run away look over here whywhywhywhy I know we were talking about the Alliance and how Shepard as a Spectre could have betrayed the alliance.  But I'll talk about Saren as if that was the issue and I can draw parellels from it.  FYI he was stripped for the events of Eden prime Tali's recording proved he was there which meant the dock worker's testimony of him killing Nihlus was true.  He killed a fellow spectre. Had nothing to do with only his sole involvement with the geth but that he used the geth to attack eden prime.  Not going any further into it then that it's pointless.[/quote]

You asked, I answered. And Saren didn’t mention killing Nihlus on Tali’s recording. The Council didn’t mention anything about Nihlus when they passed judgment on Saren. So it WAS Saren’s allegiance with the geth—NOT Nihlus’ death—that was the line Saren crossed with the Council.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
And was stripped of his Spectre status as a result. Just because you're a Spectre doesn't mean you don't have to answer to anyone. And it's not like the Council didn't give Shepard some leeway, just in case she was on the up and up. They told her to go play with Cerberus in the Traverse. They were more than accommodating to Shepard, even though working with Cerberus is still a betrayal. Cerberus stands against the Council and the Alliance. But just in case Shepard knows something the Council doesn't, they allowed her to do what she needed to do. But it doesn't make it less of a betrayal. The Council is just allowing for extenuating circumstances and incomplete information. Unfortunately, the VS doesn't even have as much information as the Council and Anderson have, they're pretty much completely in the dark about everything.[/quote] We don't know everything the VS knows.[/quote]

You’re right, we don’t. But we do know some things that he/she doesn’t know. The VS doesn’t know where Shepard has been for the last two years, doesn’t know why Shepard is working for Cerberus, or how long Shepard has been working for Cerberus. And every attempt that the VS makes to learn what’s going on is met with inane or downright idiotic responses from Shepard. Shepard is asking the VS to take a HUGE leap of faith, and I don’t blame the VS for not taking it.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Defending human colonies isn't the issue. Working for Cerberus is the issue. You're confusing one for the other. Shepard could be rescuing kittens from trees, but as long as he's doing it from a Cerberus ship with a Cerberus crew and a Cerberus boss, it's still a betrayal. The problem is WORKING FOR CERBERUS, not the tasks Cerberus is sending Shepard to do. You're trying to cloud the issue.[/quote]He can only defend the human colonies by using Cerberus Resources.[/quote]

According to who? Cerberus?

[quote]Tim says the collectors are attacking Horizon Shepard goes to check it out to see for himself and finds the Collectors attacking the colony and deals with it.  Using Cerberus resources to do this.  I recall you saying it wasn't worth it no matter the cost, so your shepard and the Vs wouldn't have helped the colonies ?[/quote]

You seem to think that I think Shepard shouldn’t work for Cerberus under any circumstances. You’re almost right, if that’s what you think. I think Cerberus is a court of last resort, not Plan A. Shepard doesn’t explore any other options before working with Cerberus. My only real issue in THIS situation is that Shepard expects the VS to just shrug his/her shoulders when he/she learns that Shepard is working with Cerberus. That the VS should just “trust” Shepard, because of all this stuff she did two years ago. I think it’s unreasonable of Shepard or anyone else to expect the VS to fall in line so easily, given all that we know about what Cerberus has done in the past. I think the reason I have so much respect for the VS is because they said the EXACT things I was saying to my TV screen when I played the game for the first time. I kept waiting for the game to give me the “find someone else to work for” option and “tell Cerberus to go to hell” option. But it never came. Even after TIM manipulates and endangers Shepard, conceals information, and generally shows himself to be an awful person, my perfect Paragon choirboy Vanguard STILL did his bidding. That left a bad taste in my mouth. That wasn’t the Shepard I remembered in the first game. That guy was a hero. Then along comes Kaidan and pretty much says the same thing, and I just wanted to say “THANK YOU!!!” I thought the game was just going to retcon Cerberus, but Kaidan’s attitude reassured me that I wasn’t the only one who thought Shepard’s actions were wildly out of character.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Well, to be fair, Shepard is there working for CERBERUS. The VS is all too familiar with Cerberus. Of COURSE his/her mind is made up about Cerberus. Last time the VS checked, so was Shepard's. But now Shepard is defending Cerberus. Something's fishy here, and it's not the VS' job to take a leap of faith, it's Shepard's job to explain the situation in a way that is believable and persuasive. Shepard does neither. [/quote]Shepard doesn't defend Cerberus he blames the party responsible for the attacks he's trying to defend against.  In essence correcting the VS from making the mistake of blaming Cerberus for the attacks on the colony.  As evil as they can be Cerberus isn't responsible for every bad thing that happens.[/quote]

And yet, we learn just after this scene that the whole reason the Collectors picked Horizon in the first place was because TIM leaked the info that the VS was stationed there. So actually, Cerberus IS responsible for what happened to the colonists on Horizon. And Shepard has to already be suspicious of this very thing as the battle is raging on Horizon. But she still just downplays how awful Cerberus is, because “that’s not important right now”. Hello, Shepard, the battle is over, how about answering the tough questions about why you’re there with Cerberus, mmmkay? Don’t try to deflect it by saying that they’re not responsible for the attack on THAT colony because they were responsible for attacks on plenty of other human settlements. Shepard may have forgotten about all those, but the VS didn’t.

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
What question did I not answer? You're fond of these very vague accusations that I'm ignoring some epic win question of yours, but you don't cite the questions themselves. If it were me, I would come back with "I asked you X, Y and Z, and you didn't respond to those points."[/quote]You can provide an answer like a politican in which you respond when asked a question.  that doesn't mean you've answered the question.  Clear enough ?  Example ? Ok You claim Shepard a traitor to the alliance.  I ask you how they betrayed the ALLIANCE and you talk about Saren and the Council.  And what you said about that was wrong.  We clear ?  You never touched upon anything that explains how Shepard has betrayed the Alliance according to the alliance.  The only indication that anything was done was the request to interrogate him on his relationship with Cerberus and it was denied.  How can it be denied if he's a traitor ?[/quote]

I don’t know how I can make it more clear how Shepard betrayed the Alliance.

She went to work for Cerberus.
She went to work for CERBERUS.
SHE WENT TO WORK FOR CERBERUS.
SHE WENT TO WORK FOR CERBERUS.

That’s it, in a nutshell. That was how she betrayed the Alliance. Whatever statutes or protocols or codicils she may have violated are immaterial. What is relevant is that Cerberus is a group who has:

• Murdered Alliance Rear Admiral Kahoku.
• Murdered numerous Alliance Marines on Akuze by luring them to a thresher maw nest.
• Murdered numerous Alliance Marines on Edolus by luring them to a thresher maw nest.
• Tortured an Alliance Marine, Corporal Toombs, by injecting him with thresher maw acid after he survived the thresher maw attack on Akuze.
• Conducted sick experiments on rachni and Thorian creepers on Binthu and Nepheron.
• Raised Jack in an abusive environment and performed sick experiments on her. (And of course we learn more details about this AFTER Horizon, but Jack's pre-Horizon conversations are pretty damning of Cerberus.)

So, regardless of what the lawyers have to say on this issue, to my way of thinking if you work for the guy who ordered/condoned/perpetrated all of the atrocities listed, then you have betrayed the people who died or suffered as a result of those atrocities. Anderson can look the other way, Hackett can look the other way, but Shepard’s not getting off that easily with me or the VS. Or Corporal Toombs, I might add. I can’t WAIT for that reunion.

So. DID I ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?

[quote][quote]Siansonea II wrote...
No it isn't. You want an answer to a question, you need to ask the damn question. Not just make some claim that you asked a question earlier and I should spend an hour and a half of my valuable time trying to track down which one it was. Because chances are, I wouldn't be able to tell which of your extremely long-winded diatribes contained these alleged questions. What's wheat, what's chaff? I have no idea. It all sounds like egocentric drivel to me. If I don't answer a question to your satisfaction, the proper response is this: "I asked you X, Y, and Z, and you dodged the question." Try THAT next time, otherwise you look like you're just trying to create the illusion of being a good debater, rather than actually debating well.[/quote]Take your pick on the last few posts you responded to.  I've even provided examples were you either gloss over with an emotional response not supported by or based on the game's events or answer with something completely offtopic.  Their are no illusions you just fail to maintain an argument or support it.
[/quote]

Modifié par Siansonea II, 03 août 2011 - 02:04 .

[AVPen]

Can someone tell me what this thread was originally about again? 
Cause it seems to have devolved into a "Shepard is/isn't a Traitor" thread. <_<

[breakdown71289]

I don't know AVPen, but i hope trust with the VS is restored somehow during the course of ME3 lol.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

ME3 better have at least one or two talking scenes with the VS where we have a chance to talk about what happened on Horizon and they had better back down and say they were wrong... if they don't than I hope Ashley likes sitting on the Normandy watching me save the galaxy... then again she did that in ME1.

[MyOpinionSucks]

I don't think it's fair to dismiss Shepard's reasons out of hand. You could argue that the Alliance betrayed Shepard first, after all. Did a 180 on the Reaper issue, spent two years calling him delusional and then left the Terminus colonies largely to their fate despite Shepard's vocal and insistant warnings about the Collectors (they did build those defence towers, but not only were they inoperable, but I get the feeling they were only given to Horizon as a cover story for the VS' investigation. I don't remember any on Freedom's Progress, after all).

Even if by a literal definition Shepard's alliance of convenience with Cerberus is a betrayal (which I'm not sure about, considering he actually died so I think it's fair to say his service ended from a legal perspective), the circumstances of his cooperation more than alleviate any negative connotations of the word. He was given no option, and he did nothing immoral himself. Didn't murder any alliance admirals, or lure any marines into Thresher Maw nests. He didn't twirl his evil little moustache and cackle while stealing nuclear warheads and holding the world to ransom. He just used their resources to combat a very real threat to the galaxy. He just did his job. It's not his fault Cerberus was the only group that let him do it.

To be honest I think it's mostly the VS' gut reaction rather than any level-headed observation. The council offers to reinstate Spectre status to 'show support of [Shepard] personally', despite acknowledging that Cerberus is 'an avowed enemy of the council'. Anderson trusts Shepard enough that he promises to keep the Alliance off his back, and then there's Hackett's 'I don't like Cerberus or the way they do things. But they brought you back to life, and they're actually doing something about the state of the galaxy.'

In my case it was Ashley as opposed to Kaidan, and her exact words were 'You betrayed the Alliance, Anderson... you betrayed me.' That's not somebody pointing out the legal technicalities of a situation, but rather a... pretty vitriolic admonition of Shepard himself. And that, at the very least, is unjustified. It's completely understandable given the VS' ignorance of all the salient facts, but it's an incorrect and totally subjective assesment of the situation.

Frankly I think given everything Shepard knows the real betrayal would have been to go back to the Alliance and let the Collectors do what they want just because they're not bothering anyone in the Alliance's jurisdiction. A Spectre's job is to protect the galaxy at any cost. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to do that. Which is exactly what Shepard did. A necessary evil.