1476 réponses à ce sujet

[AVPen]

Siansonea II wrote...

AVPen wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, I'm glad you were all amused by the dialog, because its only value is as a joke. It certainly has no other value other than to demonstrate that it's author has the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old. Ashley had the nerve to stand up to Shepard, so naturally she's just a "stupid b¡tch". No, it couldn't be that the player character might actually need to take a look at herself and reevaluate her actions. No, it couldn't be that. It's Shepard!!!!!! <_<

Actions which I'd like to remind you - and which you have convienently ignored throughout your numerous pages of arguements that you've had with other individuals in this thread - that the player has no say whatsoever in any capacity to doing or not doing in the "Mass Effect 2" video game. <_<

Right. Because the game not giving you the option to do something means that whatever the game DOES let you do is automatically The Right Thing To Do. Is that about right?

I'm not talking about the "Right Thing To Do" (nice way of deflecting the arguement to another topic that has no revelance, btw...), I'm talking about the simple ability to decide how Shepard reacts and interacts with the VS, and by extent the Alliance, in ME2.

Do you honestly believe that the player character is solely responsible for the non-choices and inactions that BioWare chose not to give Shepard for the second game? Do you truly think that Shepard's inability to contact the Alliance, further explain his/her situation to the VS, etc., is the fault and responsibility of Shepard i.e. the player himself/herself and not the writers of BioWare who deliberately decided and chose what Shepard can and can not do in the course of the video game's plot? Do you truthfully believe that if BioWare had given us these choices from the very beginning in ME2, that the many individuals who play the game and who may/may not be fans of the VS would be this upset over the events of Horizon or this concerned over the nature of the VS's role in ME3 and whether or not Shepard will this time have a real choice as to how to handle the VS?

[jeweledleah]

I haven't found that dialogue funny either because it makes too many absolutely baseless assumptions and skews the events far too much.

may I remind you again about something that VS tells you when you just meet them on Horizon? "Alliance got a tip that cerberus was behind abductions and that this colony was going to be hit next" and what does shepard do in the very next sentence? confirm their connection to Cerberus, the very Organization, whom VS was investigation in relation to abductions. right!.

also - allow me to remind you about something that Anderson says after horizon, EVEN if you have spoken to him prior to it. "why didn't you tell me that Kaidan/Ash were on Horizon" to which he replies something like we didn't know about you at the time, but even if we did, I couln't tell you either, it could compromise the mission. the report confirmed the collectors, but they haven't found anything to connect them to the reapers. since husks was the only connection that I could think of - that means that husk bodies were gone, do they disintegrate after short time or something? its possible. I'm currently trying to find some sort of free software to splice 2 30 seconds vids that my free version of fraps allows me to make, in case you all want video proof.

[AVPen]

jeweledleah wrote...

may I remind you again about something that VS tells you when you just meet them on Horizon? "Alliance got a tip that cerberus was behind abductions and that this colony was going to be hit next" and what does shepard do in the very next sentence? confirm their connection to Cerberus, the very Organization, whom VS was investigation in relation to abductions. right!.

My Shepard never did that - he chose the middle dialogue option, which more or less goes "Building the Defense towers was just a cover story. The Alliance sent you here to investigate me, didn't they?" (which doesn't really confirm or deny his involvement with Cerberus in that sentence)

Modifié par AVPen, 04 août 2011 - 04:10 .

[jeweledleah]

AVPen wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

may I remind you again about something that VS tells you when you just meet them on Horizon? "Alliance got a tip that cerberus was behind abductions and that this colony was going to be hit next" and what does shepard do in the very next sentence? confirm their connection to Cerberus, the very Organization, whom VS was investigation in relation to abductions. right!.

My Shepard never did that - he chose the middle dialogue option, which more or less goes "Building the Defense towers was just a cover story. The Alliance sent you here to investigate me, didn't they?" (which doesn't really confirm or deny his involvement with Cerberus in that sentence)

and here's the reply you get to that, at least from Kaidan (I don't have Ash's transcript ready, Kaidan's is actualy in this thread, but I'm pretty sure she says the same thing)  I actualy mixed up the order of what you say a little, sorry about that, but all the options that you can possibly have confirm your direct involvement with Cerberus.
that's what triggers the whole "you're with Cerberus now"  walking away.


  

Shepard: Building the defense towers was just a cover story. The Alliance sent you here to investigate me, didn't they?
     Kaidan: I was here for Cerberus. You were just a rumor.

and then of course that's that conversation with Anderson

Modifié par jeweledleah, 04 août 2011 - 04:20 .

[Sabet]

Siansonea II wrote...

DJRackham wrote...

Hmmm... In that joke exchange between the Virmire Survivor and Anderson.  Anderson neglected to mention that Shepard (and crew) were also responsible for getting those Alliance supplied "lasers" functional, which was supposedly the official reason that the VS was on Horizon.

Yeah, how about that Alliance technology, huh? I suppose we're going to blame the VS for that too?

Of course. The colonist would have thrown the VS off their planet as soon as those defensive towers were online because they don't trust or even hate the Alliance. So the VS has to buy as much time as possible.

Modifié par Sabet, 04 août 2011 - 04:22 .

[AVPen]

Sabet wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

DJRackham wrote...

Hmmm... In that joke exchange between the Virmire Survivor and Anderson.  Anderson neglected to mention that Shepard (and crew) were also responsible for getting those Alliance supplied "lasers" functional, which was supposedly the official reason that the VS was on Horizon.

Yeah, how about that Alliance technology, huh? I suppose we're going to blame the VS for that too?

Of course. The colonist would have thrown the VS off their planet as soon as those defensive towers were online because they don't trust or even hate the Alliance. So the VS has to buy as much time as possible.

Except, if I recall correctly, the VS was the one most eager to get the Defense Towers online and working, while the colonists were more concerned with getting their Comm Systems working and considered that a higher priority over the Defense Towers (at least, according to Lilith).

Modifié par AVPen, 04 août 2011 - 04:31 .

[paul165]

Just for fun

A different idea for the post Horizon conversation Anderson and the VS

As they seem effectively interchangeable in ME2 I won’t
specify during the dialogue but for the record my ‘canon’ Shep is female and
saved Ash on Virmire

Incidentally I hate writing dialogue, give me a narrative
piece any time

VS: Reporting back from Horizon sir.

Anderson: Good, glad to have you back heard it got rough out
there.

VS: Yes sir, I confirmed Horizon was a target but it doesn’t
appear Cerberus was behind it not unless the snakes are being even twister than
usual anyway.

Anderson: …Go on.

VS: The ship that hit us was the same design as the one that
came after the Normandy two years ago and the crew were these….insect things
with four glowing eyes. I found out how no-one manages to get a distress call
off as well as the ship swung over the colony it released this cloud of insects
that sting everyone and everyone who was stung was paralysed. Might be some of
stasis field felt sort of similar to what Liara hit me with after I pushed her
a bit too hard about moving on after…..

Anyway, something for the scientists to worry about.

Anderson: I see so you managed to evade them and then what?

VS: Evade them sir? I was one of the first hit stayed behind
to cover the civilians heading to the shelters for all the good that did. Shepard
came hit the bugs where they lived and the last I saw of them the alien ship
was retreating under fire from the ground defences.

Anderson: You’re absolutely certain it was Shepard? No
possibility of a clone?

VS: If it was a clone I didn’t see any signs of it. Shepard
claims that Cerberus spent two years rebuilding her and that the aliens were
called Collectors but all I saw was that Shepard was back in the game and there
was an operative there who looked like they were holding the strings pretty
tight. If I can have a look at what Alliance has on them I might be able to ID
her; it’s not much but at least it’s a start.

Looks like Shepard isn’t the only one crawling out of the
wood work, Garrus was there as well looking like the last couple of years hasn’t
been good for his health either.

Anderson: ‘Health either’ you think Shepard was unwell?

VS: Shepard was working for or with or whatever Cerberus
sir, don’t get much sicker than that. But yes Shepard seemed sort of pale, I
mean she was always pale too much time wearing full armour or in transit, but
this was different it looked like she was almost grey and when we started
arguing her eyes starting…glowing red.

 It was like something out of a damn horror vid and it looked
like she’d taken a hit from some kind of beam weapon. Any human I know would
have been rolling around on the floor screaming or passing out, gene mods or
not, but she just sort of ignored it. The worst part was that the burn mark was
disappearing as we talked and all three of them just treated it as normal!

Shepard was always casual about injuries but not that casual
and whatever happened over those two years I’m not sure it was better than her
staying dead.

Anderson: Hmm. This operative you were talking about dark
hair, pretty in a sort of bite your head off kind of way, rather umm well
endowed?

VS: Well I’m not the connoisseur that you appear to be but
yes. Sir how did you know?

Anderson: Miranda Lawson, one of Cerberus’ finest. I know
because she turned up on the Citadel trailing behind Shepard along with Garrus
just like Horizon.

VS: Shepard was on the Citadel? Doing what? Is she on the
run from Cerberus? Did the Council order her to appear? Or -

Anderson: The Council reinstated her Spectre status despite
her working for Cerberus. She told the Council that the Collectors were behind
everything as well. Nice to know that she’s consistent.

You said that Lawson was holding the strings pretty tight;
was there any evidence that Shepard was under some kind of compulsion?

Maybe Lawson was using more old fashioned methods, she did
seem pretty eager to keep Shepard under her eye and Shepard was bringing her
along everywhere.

VS: Sir, I don’t even know where to start. With respect my
evidence of compulsion is that two years ago Shepard shot anyone wearing that
logo and now she’s trusting them at her back! As regards ‘old fashioned methods’
there is just no way Shepard of all people would fall for that. What ever she
had with Liara is a long way from switching sides because someone pretty bats
their eyes at you!

With respect, sir.

And if I had known she was still a Spectre then -

Anderson: Careful, the question had to be asked regardless
of what you or I may personally feel about it. And if you had known she was
still a Spectre then what?

You would have ridden off into the sunset with your old
commander? Relived the glory days? Changed the logo on your armour or maybe
just swapped it out for something fancier as I understand that Cerberus doesn’t
have the budget issues that we’re dealing with?

VS: I am still a loyal Alliance soldier Councillor and I
resent that you implied otherwise.

Anderson: Someone was going to ask you, better it was me in
a nice well light Presidium office than some grey man in a closet with a lie
detector hooked up to you measuring every involuntary movement and abnormal
brain wave.

You don’t understand what Shepard has done and getting
Spectre status again has only made it worse. Shepard spent most of her career
in various bits of Alliance black ops – exactly the things Cerberus is
interested in and now she’s back openly wearing their uniform and got the
Council to sign off on it. You know as well as I do that Spectre status is only
one step from a Council seat, imagine what message that sends to all the aliens
looking at how fast humanity is gaining power. Now even our terrorist groups
are getting preferential status!

Not to mention what message it sends to the Cerberus
operatives and sympathisers inside the Alliance who are all moving a little
more boldly, whispering a little more loudly. Cerberus has far too much
influence inside the Alliance as it is having Shepard on their side, however
temporary and involuntary, is making it worse.

But that’s not the best part, the best part is that we can’t
do anything about it because Shepard is right. Cerberus are the only people
doing anything about the Reapers and if Shepard wins.. if she and her motley
crew of terrorists, mercs and defectors stop the abductions and save the day
imagine what that will do to the Alliance.

Hell it’s already happening Hackett sent Shepard on a job
already and there are rumours of another black op that Shepard’s deniable
status would be ‘just perfect for’.

And you think it unlikely I’m asking about your loyalty –
intel reports that Shepard is going round trying to recruit her old crew again.
Garrus you already met, Wrex gave her free permission to move around Tuchanka
and almost no aliens get that, no-one knows precisely what happened with Liara
but we know she’s a serious player on Ilium – paid Shepard’s docking fees when
she visited as well.

So that leaves only you and the quarian and Cerberus has
always recruited a lot of its most experienced personnel from disaffected Alliance
soldiers.

But none of that is your problem is it? That’s all a problem
for the old men in suits like me.

I’ll clear for records of the conversation Shepard had with
the Council put it together with what you got on Horizon and see what you can
dig up. At this point I’ll take anything you can get. Dismissed.

VS: Yes sir, I’m sure Shepard didn’t mean to – I mean I’ll
get right on it.

Modifié par paul165, 04 août 2011 - 04:35 .

[Siansonea]

AVPen wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

AVPen wrote...
*snip*


Actions which I'd like to remind you - and which you have convienently ignored throughout your numerous pages of arguements that you've had with other individuals in this thread - that the player has no say whatsoever in any capacity to doing or not doing in the "Mass Effect 2" video game.

Right. Because the game not giving you the option to do something means that whatever the game DOES let you do is automatically The Right Thing To Do. Is that about right?

I'm not talking about the "Right Thing To Do" (nice way of deflecting the arguement to another topic that has no revelance, btw...), I'm talking about the simple ability to decide how Shepard reacts and interacts with the VS, and by extent the Alliance, in ME2.


Do you honestly believe that the player character is solely responsible for the non-choices and inactions that BioWare chose not to give Shepard for the second game?

Yes. YES. 


Shepard is absolutely responsible for her actions, regardless of the game options. The options that BioWare gives the player are the options available to Shepard, limited by Shepard's circumstances, imagination, and perception. If other options don't exist, then from within the story that means that Shepard doesn't have the imagination or perception to pursue them, or she's limited by other circumstances. That's on her, and to some extent her circumstances. It's certainly not the fault of the other NPCs in the game that Shepard doesn't approach things differently. 

Do you truly think that Shepard's inability to contact the Alliance, further explain his/her situation to the VS, etc., is the fault and responsibility of Shepard i.e. the player himself/herself and not the writers of BioWare who deliberately decided and chose what Shepard can and can not do in the course of the video game's plot?

Yes. Because it's easy to blame BioWare for bad writing, but from a non-meta perspective, this is how the story goes. If Shepard doesn't contact the Alliance, within the story that's Shepard's fault. If Anderson doesn't brief the VS on Cerberus, that's Anderson's fault. If the VS doesn't ask the right questions, that's the VS' fault. In-universe, you have to evaluate what each character does without resorting to the meta-perspective of the game and the writers. The characters do things or don't do them, and they should be judged on that basis. Shepard doesn't do a lot of things that if she were a real person she could have done. BioWare didn't let her. We could say as players that it's BioWare's "bad", but inside the story the responsibility is Shepard's. Shepard can't tell the VS "I'm sorry, but I would have contacted the Alliance but the game wouldn't let me." She either didn't think to do that, or she felt she couldn't for some reason. But dismissing it as bad writing doesn't unring the bell.

Do you truthfully believe that if BioWare had given us these choices from the very beginning in ME2, that the many individuals who play the game and who may/may not be fans of the VS would be this upset over the events of Horizon or this concerned over the nature of the VS's role in ME3 and whether or not Shepard will this time have a real choice as to how to handle the VS?

Dunno. That's pretty hypothetical. I can say that I would be a lot more sympathetic toward Shepard if she had shown a little more empathy for the VS' point of view. The situation looks really bad from the VS' perspective, but instead of doing everything she can to allay the VS' concerns, she just expects the VS to trust her just because she's Shepard, and I think that's asking too much of ANYONE. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 août 2011 - 04:44 .

[Siansonea]

Sabet wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

DJRackham wrote...

Hmmm... In that joke exchange between the Virmire Survivor and Anderson.  Anderson neglected to mention that Shepard (and crew) were also responsible for getting those Alliance supplied "lasers" functional, which was supposedly the official reason that the VS was on Horizon.

Yeah, how about that Alliance technology, huh? I suppose we're going to blame the VS for that too?

Of course. The colonist would have thrown the VS off their planet as soon as those defensive towers were online because they don't trust or even hate the Alliance. So the VS has to buy as much time as possible.

Well, at least jumping to conclusions is a form of exercise. <_<

[Siansonea]

@paul165: Now that sounds like the Anderson I know.

[Estelindis]

Paul165, I enjoyed your version of the VS/Anderson conversation a lot more than the other one that's floating around. It actually sounds like something Anderson and Kaidan would say. Maybe Ash too? I don't know; I heard the VS lines in Kaidan's voice when I read it.

[paul165]

>>Yes. Because it's easy to blame BioWare for bad writing, but from a
non-meta perspective, this is how the story goes. If Shepard doesn't
contact the Alliance, within the story that's Shepard's fault. If
Anderson doesn't brief the VS on Cerberus, that's Anderson's fault. If
the VS doesn't ask the right questions, that's the VS' fault.
In-universe, you have to evaluate what each character does without
resorting to the meta-perspective of the game and the writers. The
characters do things or don't do them, and they should be judged on that
basis. Shepard doesn't do a lot of things that if she were a real
person she could have done. BioWare didn't let her. We could say as
players that it's BioWare's "bad", but inside the story the
responsibility is Shepard's. Shepard can't tell the VS "I'm sorry, but I
would have contacted the Alliance but the game wouldn't let me." She
either didn't think to do that, or she felt she couldn't for some
reason. But dismissing it as bad writing doesn't unring the bell.<<

Exactly!

>>Dunno. That's pretty hypothetical. I can say that I would be a lot more
sympathetic toward Shepard if she had shown a little more empathy for
the VS' point of view. The situation looks really bad from the VS'
perspective, but instead of doing everything she can to allay the VS'
concerns, she just expects the VS to trust her just because she's
Shepard, and I think that's asking too much of ANYONE. <<

Except that it obviously wasn't asking too much of the Council, Anderson, Garrus, Tali, Liara or Hackett in fact of Shepard's significant allies from ME the only one who resorts to burning bridges is the VS. And in order to explain that people including me have to resort to various exotic theories from the meta (bad writing, the VS wasn't supposed to join the squad), to the psychological (PTSD, Survivor's Guilt, Cold War Syndrome) to the down right uncomplimentary (gold digging , indoctrination). Obviously different people have different favourites but almost everyone in this thread, yes absolutely including me, is forced to reach for one or more of them to explain the encounter on Horizon.

>>Yeah, how about that Alliance technology, huh? I suppose we're going to blame the VS for that too?<<

We can go down that route but I don't think it helps very much /understatement.

Edit: Thank you to Siansonea and Estelindis I rather enjoy writing Anderson but always find the VS really hard to write (probably why most of it was Anderson)

Modifié par paul165, 04 août 2011 - 04:57 .

[Sabet]

AVPen wrote...
Except, if I recall correctly, the VS was the one most eager to get the Defense Towers online and working, while the colonists were more concerned with getting their Comm Systems working first over the Defense Towers (at least, according to Lilith).

Oh don't get me wrong. I do belive the VS really wanted to get those towers online in the end especially when the Comm Systems stopped working (thanks to the Collectors) but he/she also had to buy time otherwise the VS had to left the colony.

Modifié par Sabet, 04 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[ubermensch007]

AVPen wrote...

iakus wrote...

Where's that post of the hypothetical conversation between Ash and Anderson, post Horizon?  I need to read that again...

I hope you thank me for searching through this thread for this one: 

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?
VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?
VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?
VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?
VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?
VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.
Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...
Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.
Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?
VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.
Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?
VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS: *salutes*
Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turnsto leave*
Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Wow... Just -- WOW The fellow who wrote this has some 'mad-skills' I may have to "Invite him or her to be Friends" after reading that...It's so nice to see someone who calls the "right" person in ME 2 a "dumb-ass" unlike some people <_<

Made Nightwing wrote...

@AVpen

Honestly, that whole post is a load of bollocks. Ash is getting the blame for Anderson screwing her over.

Estelindis wrote... Agreed. Much of the misunderstanding on the part of the VS re. Shepard could
have been prevented if Anderson hadn't stonewalled them. The fact that Anderson did in spite of having goodwill towards Shepard tells me that he wanted the VS's investigation to be independent and unprejudiced.
Accordingly, getting snippy because they relay some information that (unbeknownst to them) he already knew is completely hypocritical and, frankly, beneath a character of his integrity.

Really? So let me get this right -- Made Nightwing and Estelindis.You think that if Anderson gave  Ash a heads up about Shepard that she would have behaved differently when she encountered him on Horizon? If you are correct.Than that just adds insult to injury to her relationship with Commander Shepard.Even though Anderson assigned Williams to the Normandy SR-1.Shepard was her CO.Shepard was her comrade, friend and lover.Anderson does not fully vouch for Shepard when you meet him in ME 2.If he did.He would have told Shep where Ashley was.

Sianesea II wrote... I agree. This is some Ash hater's wet dream. If I was Ash, and Anderson went all Douchebag on me like this, I would tell Anderson, "Well, since you already know everything, you don't need me for the rest of this debriefing. Tell you what, next time you have information that pertains to one of my active investigations, how about you give me that information BEFOREHAND. That would be much more helpful than you just keeping everything to yourself. You know that "need to know" thing? Well, when you send someone off to investigate Cerberus, and you learn that someone that person knows is WORKING with Cerberus, it might be a
good idea to let your agent know that. But I guess being a politician has weakened your strategic skills. Sir."

And Anderson would never say anything like this fanfiction writer's poor attempt at VS-bashing. Anderson would understand the VS' point of view, because Anderson is a grown-up. Anderson not telling the VS about
Shepard really makes no sense to me. I can understand Anderson not telling Shepard about the VS, but seriously, what was the point of keeping the VS in the dark about Shepard being alive and working with
Cerberus? Did he think the VS was a poor security risk or something? Ridiculous.

Estelindis wrote... EDIT: Siansonea, I agree so much with both of your posts there.
 Anderson would never speak to Ash that way - and, if he did, she'd be entirely entitled to respond as you write.

Hmm... Well if Ashley would have mouthed off at Admiral/Councilor David Anderson like you suggest.She damn well better have asked for "Permission to speak freely, Sir?!" First.(And recieved it) Or she might have found herself demoted...

Sian you may be right in saying that Anderson wouldn't talk to Ashley like this.But he might have such thoughts as this about her performance of late.Captain David Anderson saw something in Gunnery Chief Ashley Williams.That's why he brought her aboard the Normandy.He thought that she had potential.As someone who got a raw deal himself.With the whole Saren Arterious sabotaging his chances of becoming the first human Spectre.He undoubtedly sympathizes with Williams (Military) Families plight.But it is more than possible to speculate that Anderson may think now.That he was wrong about Williams having "great" potential...

IMO, I think that what this author wrote is far from "a poor-attempt at VS-bashing" (I don't see telling the truth about what the VS did on Horizon as "bashing")  As iakus put it...

I'm a huge VS fan, especially Ash, and I found that dialogue HI-larious.The fact that she's talking to Anderson, even an OOC Anderson, is irrelevant.  It could just as easily have been Udina, the Council,
Hackett, or Bob the Alliance Special Forces Commander.  All that is important is that she's talking to an interested third party, who was not present on Horizon, and trying to describe what happned.  And it's there that it shows just how ridiculous and irrational the VS acted. How out of character, they were, how myopic their view, how forgetful they were of teh past.  It's funny because it's true.  I find that the best kind of humor.
Of course, if you have to explain the joke...

P.S. And on a side note.

Siansonea II, redbaron 76 -- Err... Are you going to respond to my  'Post' on Page 27 of this thread?

Modifié par ubermensch007, 04 août 2011 - 05:06 .

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...
*snip*


Except that it obviously wasn't asking too much of the Council, Anderson, Garrus, Tali, Liara or Hackett in fact of Shepard's significant allies from ME the only one who resorts to burning bridges is the VS.

These aren't all equivalencies though. All of these individuals oppose Cerberus to some extent, but it's more of a factor for Alliance people than it is for the Council or aliens, for legal reasons. The Council, of course, IS the law, so they can handwave Shepard's involvement with Cerberus with impunity. Similarly, Anderson and Hackett, who have access to all the most classified data on Cerberus, can act with their own discretion. Liara and Garrus are pretty much free agents with few ties to their own people, so they can do whatever they want. Tali can also join Shepard without completely cutting ties with the Migrant Fleet, even if they aren't thrilled with her working on a Cerberus ship. But the VS is an Alliance soldier, and for them, working for Cerberus is NOT an option. And to their way of thinking, it shouldn't be an option for Shepard either. I think if I was in the VS' place I would have reacted very similarly, though I wouldn't have been nearly as diplomatic. You think the VS was harsh with Shepard? I would have torn her a new one. Of course, if she actually explained the situation to my satisfaction, it would be a different story. I'm not unreasonable, and I will listen. But I can't listen if she doesn't say anything except "you know me, you can trust me". B¡tch please, that might work on your asari groupie, but I'm not that easy.

And in order to explain that people including me have to resort to various exotic theories from the meta (bad writing, the VS wasn't supposed to join the squad), to the psychological (PTSD, Survivor's Guilt, Cold War Syndrome) to the down right uncomplimentary (gold digging, indoctrination). Obviously different people have different favourites but almost everyone in this thread, yes absolutely including me, is forced to reach for one or more of them to explain the encounter on Horizon.[i]

I don't have to construct any sort of odd scenario to explain the VS' reaction. It's obvious they're very surprised to Shepard alive, very confused about why Shepard is with Cerberus OF ALL PEOPLE, and very skeptical about the mealymouthed answers Shepard is giving. I DO have to wonder what's going through Shepard's mind though.

[ubermensch007]

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, I'm glad you were all amused by the dialog, because its only value is as a joke. It certainly has no other value other than perhaps to demonstrate that it's author has the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old. Ashley had the nerve to stand up to Shepard, so naturally she's just a "stupid b¡tch". No, it couldn't be that the player character might actually need to take a look at herself and reevaluate her actions. No, it couldn't be that. It's Shepard!!!!!! <_<

Hmm... Really... You don't say.Well actually you do...I seem to recall you writing something very similar -- except what  you wrote didn't ring as true as what JKoopman wrote (Post-Horizon Vs-Report)  Siansonea II.Where was that? Ah yes, I found it.

I know what "vitriol" is. I also know what "vituperation" is. How about I define "condescending" for you? Or "pretentious"? Perhaps "sesquipedalian"? Nah, I'd rather illustrate my original point, in my inimitable style.



Mass Effect 1 Commander Shepard and Cerberus

Admiral Kahoku: “I got some missing Marines, Spectre. Cerberus is bad, mmmkay?”

Shepard: “I found your missing Marines. Cerberus lured them to a thresher maw nest! Those basterds!”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Admiral Kahoku: “Cerberus has bases on Binthu and Nepheron!” *Shepard goes to Binthu*

Shepard:
“Binthu, neutralized. Icky experiments, by the way." *Shepard goes to
Nepheron* "Nepheron, neutralized. Again, ew." *finds the murdered body
of Kahoku* "Alas, poor Kahoku, I knew him, Joker.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Corporal
Toombs: “Cerberus caused the thresher maw attack on Akuze! They
experimented on me! Injected thresher maw acid into my veins!”

Shepard:
“OMG, Toombs, I was on Akuze too! Those basterds! Justice is thine,
Toombs, see this man as he lay dying, he who hath abused thee!”

Corporal Toombs: “You rock, Shepard.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


Mass Effect 2, Commander Shepard and Cerberus

Jacob: “Hi, we’re Cerberus, but look at me, I’m a good guy.”

Shepard: “Okay. You seem nice. Wait, Cerberus? KahokuBinthuNepheronAkuzeToombs Cerberus?”

Jacob: "Yeah. But we're just misunderstood."

Shepard: "Okay."

Miranda:
“Sorry to get Wilson’s blood on your armor when I wasted him in cold
blood, I’m Miranda. I’m going to be cold toward you, but I look hot, so
it balances out. Look how awesome Cerberus is, they have me.”

Shepard: “Okay. You’re pretty.”

Miranda: “I told TIM that I wanted to give you a control chip, but he said no. So of course I totally did as he asked. Honest.”

Shepard: “Okay. Wanna talk some more?”

Miranda: “There’s a lot to do Shepard, maybe another time.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

TIM: “Go to Horizon”

Shepard: “Okay.” *goes to Horizon* “Hey! You tricked me!”

TIM:
“Of course I lured the Collectors to Horizon and didn’t tell you.
Helloooo “villain”? Cigarettes? Alcohol? Come on Shepard, duh!”

Shepard: “Okay.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

TIM: “Go to the Collector Ship.”

Shepard: “Okay.” *goes to Collector Ship* “Hey! You tricked me!”

TIM:
“Of course I knew it was a trap and didn’t tell you. Seriously, what
part of ‘I’m evil, don’t trust me’ was unclear? Put some points toward
Sense Motive, Shepard.”

Shepard: “Okay.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

TIM: “Go to the Derelict Reaper.”

Shepard: “Okay, but only because you just tricked me.”

TIM: “Seriously Miranda, did you give him a lobotomy?”

Miranda: “Uh...no. Not at all. In any case, the records from the Lazarus Project were all destroyed. Ahem.”

*Shepard goes to the Derelict Reaper*

Shepard: “Hey, I found a cool Geth!”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

TIM:
“I understand the Collectors took everyone on the ship. You might want
to start the Suicide Mission before too much longer, endgame variables
depend on it.”

Shepard: “Okay. I don’t know why, but ‘Suicide Mission’ sounds really final.”  *goes on Suicide Mission*

TIM: “I want that Collector Base, Shepard.”

Shepard: “Nuh-uh! You don’t get it! I’m wise to you, TIM! You’re MEAN!”

TIM: “Miranda, what gives? I thought I told you ‘not’ to put a control chip in his head?”

Miranda: “And I told you to buy cybenetic components from Serrice Council, instead of Wal-Mart”

TIM: “But they’re asari and—Aaaargh! I’ll get you in the next game Shepard!”

Shepard: “Nuh-uh!”

To throw your own words back in your faceSiansonea II, (I think you were the one to say this)
"Pot -- meet kettle."

Modifié par ubermensch007, 04 août 2011 - 05:19 .

[Siansonea]

ubermensch007 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, I'm glad you were all amused by the dialog, because its only value is as a joke. It certainly has no other value other than perhaps to demonstrate that it's author has the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old. Ashley had the nerve to stand up to Shepard, so naturally she's just a "stupid b¡tch". No, it couldn't be that the player character might actually need to take a look at herself and reevaluate her actions. No, it couldn't be that. It's Shepard!!!!!! <_<

Hmm... Really... You don't say.Well actually you do...I seem to recall you writing something very similar -- except what  you wrote didn't ring as true as what JKoopman wrote (Post-Horizon Vs-Report)  Siansonea II.Where was that? Ah yes, I found it.

I know what "vitriol" is. I also know what "vituperation" is. How about I define "condescending" for you? Or "pretentious"? Perhaps "sesquipedalian"? Nah, I'd rather illustrate my original point, in my inimitable style.



Mass Effect 1 Commander Shepard and Cerberus

Admiral Kahoku: “I got some missing Marines, Spectre. Cerberus is bad, mmmkay?”

Shepard: “I found your missing Marines. Cerberus lured them to a thresher maw nest! Those basterds!”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Admiral Kahoku: “Cerberus has bases on Binthu and Nepheron!” *Shepard goes to Binthu*

Shepard:
“Binthu, neutralized. Icky experiments, by the way." *Shepard goes to
Nepheron* "Nepheron, neutralized. Again, ew." *finds the murdered body
of Kahoku* "Alas, poor Kahoku, I knew him, Joker.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Corporal
Toombs: “Cerberus caused the thresher maw attack on Akuze! They
experimented on me! Injected thresher maw acid into my veins!”

Shepard:
“OMG, Toombs, I was on Akuze too! Those basterds! Justice is thine,
Toombs, see this man as he lay dying, he who hath abused thee!”

Corporal Toombs: “You rock, Shepard.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


Mass Effect 2, Commander Shepard and Cerberus

Jacob: “Hi, we’re Cerberus, but look at me, I’m a good guy.”

Shepard: “Okay. You seem nice. Wait, Cerberus? KahokuBinthuNepheronAkuzeToombs Cerberus?”

Jacob: "Yeah. But we're just misunderstood."

Shepard: "Okay."

Miranda:
“Sorry to get Wilson’s blood on your armor when I wasted him in cold
blood, I’m Miranda. I’m going to be cold toward you, but I look hot, so
it balances out. Look how awesome Cerberus is, they have me.”

Shepard: “Okay. You’re pretty.”

Miranda: “I told TIM that I wanted to give you a control chip, but he said no. So of course I totally did as he asked. Honest.”

Shepard: “Okay. Wanna talk some more?”

Miranda: “There’s a lot to do Shepard, maybe another time.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

TIM: “Go to Horizon”

Shepard: “Okay.” *goes to Horizon* “Hey! You tricked me!”

TIM:
“Of course I lured the Collectors to Horizon and didn’t tell you.
Helloooo “villain”? Cigarettes? Alcohol? Come on Shepard, duh!”

Shepard: “Okay.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

TIM: “Go to the Collector Ship.”

Shepard: “Okay.” *goes to Collector Ship* “Hey! You tricked me!”

TIM:
“Of course I knew it was a trap and didn’t tell you. Seriously, what
part of ‘I’m evil, don’t trust me’ was unclear? Put some points toward
Sense Motive, Shepard.”

Shepard: “Okay.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

TIM: “Go to the Derelict Reaper.”

Shepard: “Okay, but only because you just tricked me.”

TIM: “Seriously Miranda, did you give him a lobotomy?”

Miranda: “Uh...no. Not at all. In any case, the records from the Lazarus Project were all destroyed. Ahem.”

*Shepard goes to the Derelict Reaper*

Shepard: “Hey, I found a cool Geth!”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

TIM:
“I understand the Collectors took everyone on the ship. You might want
to start the Suicide Mission before too much longer, endgame variables
depend on it.”

Shepard: “Okay. I don’t know why, but ‘Suicide Mission’ sounds really final.”  *goes on Suicide Mission*

TIM: “I want that Collector Base, Shepard.”

Shepard: “Nuh-uh! You don’t get it! I’m wise to you, TIM! You’re MEAN!”

TIM: “Miranda, what gives? I thought I told you ‘not’ to put a control chip in his head?”

Miranda: “And I told you to buy cybenetic components from Serrice Council, instead of Wal-Mart”

TIM: “But they’re asari and—Aaaargh! I’ll get you in the next game Shepard!”

Shepard: “Nuh-uh!”

To throw your own words back in your faceSiansonea II, (I think you were the one to say this)
"Pot -- meet kettle."

I see you missed the entire point of my original post, if you think it's equivalent in purpose to the other. I was demonstrating the epic stupidity of Shepard working with Cerberus, and I used a blatantly farcical dialog to illustrate that. In FORM it is similar to the other, but it's purpose is entirely different. The other dialog's purpose was to construct a fantasy scenario in which Anderson, by proxy, helps Shepard rationalize the irrational hatred of the VS as a result of the Horizon encounter. The dialog was not presented as satirical, it was presented as if it was something that Anderson and the VS would actually say to one another. You really think they're the same? No wonder I can't get through to you on anything else.

But I stopped listening to you after you said "Shepard is a god", which is why I didn't respond to your nightmarishly formatted TL;DR post. 

[Siansonea]

ubermensch007 wrote...
*snip*

Siansonea II, redbaron 76 -- Err... Are you going to respond to my  'Post' on Page 27 of this thread?

Nope. Your posts are beyond convoluted. And once you started in with Shepard's Divine Right BS, well, that's when I decided that discourse with you was, as they say, a waste of my time.

[paul165]

>>These aren't all equivalencies though. All of these individuals oppose Cerberus to some extent, but it's more of a factor for Alliance people than it is for the Council or aliens, for legal reasons. The Council, of course, IS the law, so they can handwave Shepard's involvement with Cerberus with impunity. Similarly, Anderson and Hackett, who have access to all the most classified data on Cerberus, can act with their own discretion. Liara and Garrus are pretty much free agents with few ties to their own people, so they can do whatever they want. Tali can also
join Shepard without completely cutting ties with the Migrant Fleet, even if they aren't thrilled with her working on a Cerberus ship. But the VS is an Alliance soldier, and for them, working for Cerberus is NOT
an option. And to their way of thinking, it shouldn't be an option for Shepard either. I think if I was in the VS' place I would have reacted very similarly, though I wouldn't have been nearly as diplomatic. You think the VS was harsh with Shepard? I would have torn her a new one. Of course, if she actually explained the situation to my satisfaction, it
would be a different story. I'm not unreasonable, and I will listen. But I can't listen if she doesn't say anything except "you know me, you can trust me". B¡tch please, that might work on your asari groupie, but I'm
not that easy.<<

Avowed enemy of the Council ring any bells? Just because the individual Councillors do not (well
probably do not anyway I assume if it back fired badly enough even the Council can be charged with treason) face legal consequences doesn't, to me, diminish the magnitude of the risk they took or the amount of trust
they bestow. 

Anderson, well, Anderson is odd in legal terms but Hackett is a military officer and therefore would be subject to the
same codes of conduct as the VS and frankly is a lot more likely to be caught because counter intelligence is more likely to monitor an Admiral than a low ranking officer (or high ranking NCO depending on when
Ashley gets promoted). If we are instead saying that Hackett had permission to contact Shepard or an Admiral has that much independence of action we are getting into Zulu-esque 'Cerberus is part of the
Alliance' turf and that doesn't help anybody.

Liara and Garrus are free agents - especially Liara but it doesn't alter that what they decided they wanted to do was help Shepard, risk their lives to help them. The VS couldn't even manage a civil conversation.

Besides if your argument is that the VS responds like that partially out of legal concerns that makes them ... not a very nice person.

>>But I can't listen if she doesn't say anything except "you know me, you can
trust me".<<

And she can't explain if your reaction to that is not 'Why can I trust you?' or 'Do I know you?' but a very
plain 'I can't trust you' at which point Shepard no matter their diplomatic skill is kind of sunk because it leaves nothing to talk about.

>>You think the VS was harsh with Shepard?<<

No I don't or at most that's not the issue I have with Horizon or 'restoring trust with the VS'. My problem with the VS' actions on Horizon is that from the perspective of my Shepard they made an escalating series of bad calls that contributed to the total FUBAR (we can use this right? - if not my apologies let me know and I'll edit it) that Horizon became namely:
the Collectors escaped
Half the colony is missing
The VS walked away without any new information that Shepard would have been willing to provide - information that could have helped prove the Reaper's involvement, information that could have allowed Shepard to leave Cerberus, information that could have saved lives.
Now that wasn't entirely the VS' fault but they hold some of the responsibility for it as does Shepard who hasn't failed that comprehensively at anything and survived since Eden Prime and Shepard wasn't exactly their charming best after that mission either.

If I was worried about harsh language I never would survived being on a ship with Jack!

>>I don't have to construct any sort of odd scenario to explain the VS' reaction. It's obvious they're very surprised to Shepard alive, very confused about why Shepard is with Cerberus OF ALL PEOPLE, and very skeptical about the mealymouthed answers Shepard is giving. I DO have to wonder what's going through Shepard's mind though. <<

Skeptical escalating towards hostile even. No this is not a complaint about the tone but it still leaves a whole load of problems that Shepard's unusual failure of diplomacy doesn't account for.

Modifié par paul165, 04 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...


Avowed enemy of the Council ring any bells? Just because the individual Councillors do not (well probably do not anyway I assume if it back fired badly enough even the 
Council can be charged with treason) face legal consequences doesn't, to me, diminish the magnitude of the risk they took or the amount of trust they bestow.  


Anderson, well, Anderson is odd in legal terms but Hackett is a military officer and therefore would be subject to the same codes of conduct as the VS and frankly is a lot more likely to be caught because counter intelligence is more likely to monitor an Admiral than a low ranking officer (or high ranking NCO depending on when Ashley gets promoted). If we are instead saying that Hackett had permission to contact Shepard or an Admiral has that much independence of action we are getting into Zulu-esque 'Cerberus is part of the Alliance' turf and that doesn't help anybody.

I'm beginning to think that I'm speaking a foreign language. Did you really get this from what I wrote? I think it's pretty self-evident that the higher-up you are in a chain of command, the more leeway you have to make judgment calls in situations like this. That was a really simple point I was trying to make. What does counter-intelligence and monitoring and Cerberus being part of the Alliance and...just, what? 

Liara and Garrus are free agents - especially Liara but it doesn't alter that what they decided they wanted to do was help Shepard, risk their lives to help them. The VS couldn't even manage a civil conversation.

"You betrayed everything we stood for." She did. She joined Cerberus. BEFORE, when the VS knew her, she was against Cerberus. She betrayed everything they stood for.
"I know where my loyalty lies. I'm an Alliance soldier, always will be." Yeah, REAL HARSH.


Poor widdle Shepard got smacked on the nose by that mean old Virmire Survivor! Really, if this is your idea of "uncivil conversation" ...

Besides if your argument is that the VS responds like that partially out of legal concerns that makes them ... not a very nice person.

Huh? Being unable to drop everything and join Cerberus because of their duty and obligation to the Alliance makes them a "not nice person"? Being mindful of their duty as an Alliance officer makes them not a nice person? Approaching a situation like this as a professional rather than as a "friend" makes them not a nice person? Huh. Well I guess there are more important things in life than being a nice person. LOTS more things. At least, to my way of thinking. I'd rather be true to my oath than preserve a friendship that only exists so long as I am deferential to that "friend" and overlook every questionable decision and judgment call they make. Yeah, I don't need that person as a friend. I'd rather have friends with integrity, who can take it on the chin like a grownup when they're called out for their questionable ethics.

And she can't explain if your reaction to that is not 'Why can I trust you?' or 'Do I know you?' but a very plain 'I can't trust you' at which point Shepard no matter their diplomatic skill is kind of sunk because it leaves nothing to talk about.

Yeah, "I don't trust Cerberus" is soooo unreasonable. ::facepalm**

>>You think the VS was harsh with Shepard?<<


No I don't or at most that's not the issue I have with Horizon or 'restoring trust with the VS'. My problem with the VS' actions on Horizon is that from the perspective of my Shepard they made an escalating series of bad calls that contributed to the total FUBAR (we can use this right? - if not my apologies let me know and I'll edit it) that Horizon became namely:
the Collectors escaped
Half the colony is missing
The VS walked away without any new information that Shepard would have been willing to provide - information that could have helped prove the Reaper's involvement, information that could have allowed Shepard to leave Cerberus, information that could have saved lives.
Now that wasn't entirely the VS' fault but they hold some of the responsibility for it as does Shepard who hasn't failed that comprehensively at anything since Eden Prime and Shepard wasn't exactly their charming best after that mission either.


If I was worried about harsh language I never would survived being on a ship with Jack!

Well, that's an awfully passive stance. The VS walked away before I could give them any information! Well, ask them to wait. Ask them to take your omni-tool data with them. Do SOMETHING. Don't just throw up your hands and pout because "they wouldn't listen". Yeah, BioWare didn't let the player do that. But that's not the VS' fault. It's Shepard's. The VS could have asked for more information, but really, what good is information from a source like Cerberus? They're CRIMINALS who have ACTIVELY OPPOSED THE ALLIANCE AND KILLED NUMEROUS ALLIANCE PERSONNEL. Who would really trust them under any circumstances? Really, that is the crux of my entire argument, and yet everyone is treating Cerberus like there a mildly sketchy corporation that cheats on their taxes, rather than a cadre of murderous thugs and human supremacists. Forgive me if I take their word with a massive grain of salt. And forgive me if the stain of Cerberus atrocities makes me less likely to trust Shepard. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 août 2011 - 06:15 .

[TheMarshal]

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, that's an awfully passive stance. The VS walked away before I could give them any information! Well, ask them to wait. Ask them to take your omni-tool data with them. Do SOMETHING. Don't just throw up your hands and pout because "they wouldn't listen". Yeah, BioWare didn't let the player do that. But that's not the VS' fault. It's Shepard's. The VS could have asked for more information, but really, what good is information from a source like Cerberus? They're CRIMINALS who have ACTIVELY OPPOSED THE ALLIANCE AND KILLED NUMEROUS ALLIANCE PERSONNEL. Who would really trust them under any circumstances? Really, that is the crux of my entire argument, and yet everyone is treating Cerberus like there a mildly sketchy corporation that cheats on their taxes, rather than a cadre of murderous thugs and human supremacists. Forgive me if I take their word with a massive grain of salt. And forgive me if the stain of Cerberus atrocities makes me less likely to trust Shepard. 

Who's asking the VS to trust Cerberus, though?  Couldn't they just trust Shepard?  You know, "Losing you was like losing a limb/You were more than our commander" Shepard?  They Shepard they stole a ship with?  The Shepard they followed to the other side of the galaxy?

I dunno, from a meta-perspective I get why they had the VS drop Shepard like a bad habit.  I just would have thought that their relationship counted for more than that.

[Siansonea]

TheMarshal wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, that's an awfully passive stance. The VS walked away before I could give them any information! Well, ask them to wait. Ask them to take your omni-tool data with them. Do SOMETHING. Don't just throw up your hands and pout because "they wouldn't listen". Yeah, BioWare didn't let the player do that. But that's not the VS' fault. It's Shepard's. The VS could have asked for more information, but really, what good is information from a source like Cerberus? They're CRIMINALS who have ACTIVELY OPPOSED THE ALLIANCE AND KILLED NUMEROUS ALLIANCE PERSONNEL. Who would really trust them under any circumstances? Really, that is the crux of my entire argument, and yet everyone is treating Cerberus like there a mildly sketchy corporation that cheats on their taxes, rather than a cadre of murderous thugs and human supremacists. Forgive me if I take their word with a massive grain of salt. And forgive me if the stain of Cerberus atrocities makes me less likely to trust Shepard. 

Who's asking the VS to trust Cerberus, though?  Couldn't they just trust Shepard?  You know, "Losing you was like losing a limb/You were more than our commander" Shepard?  They Shepard they stole a ship with?  The Shepard they followed to the other side of the galaxy?

I dunno, from a meta-perspective I get why they had the VS drop Shepard like a bad habit.  I just would have thought that their relationship counted for more than that.

And that's a very Shepard-centric, emotional point of view. You can't just handwave Cerberus out of the equation. Shepard's great and all, but some things are bigger than both of them. And Cerberus is one of those things. You don't get to just ignore the atrocities that Cerberus committed, and overlook Shepard's involvement with Cerberus "because it's Shepard". That's the sort of thing that gets real people into real trouble in the real world.

And just why is Shepard so damned trustworthy anyway? Shepard is a Spectre who has been missing for two years, after being presumed dead after the Normandy SR-1 was attacked over Alchera. Shepard claims to have been in a coma for two years, and that Cerberus rebuilt her. Well, okay, whatever. And I'm just supposed to buy everything you say just because you were a hero two years ago? And because we mutinied together (with Captain Anderson's blessing and the full support of the Alliance fleet)? Because two years ago I thought I knew who you were and what you stood for? Yeah, that buys you some benefit of the doubt, but not a lot. The universe doesn't revolve around you, Shepard.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 août 2011 - 07:07 .

[Dariustwinblade]

Some of you VS fans acts like the Alliance is the ultimate source of pure good. And never committed and atrocity in its lifetime.

I kept the kenji's greybox and am eager to see what in it. Then I'll see what the VS defends the Alliance with. Heck if I'll give it to Liara to distribute the info to every government in the citadel.

Anderson was even working and talking with cerberus opertive in one of the LOTSB.

But the most amazing thing about the VS is how incompetent they proved in Horizon. Every single former squaddie acomplished something.

[paul165]

>>I think it's pretty self-evident that the higher-up you are in a chain of command, the more leeway you have to make judgment calls<<

It is highly unlikely the contacting Cerberus or Cerberus personnel is anything other than treason no matter how high ranking you are. Contacting the KGB as asking them for a favour would have been treason during the Cold War regardless of rank and the point about criminal offences is that one of the things that determines how likely people are to do them is the odds of being caught out. That is as true for a 12 year skipping homework as it is for an Alliance officer contacting Cerberus.

If contacting Cerberus is as you claim merely a matter of an arguable judgement call then the whole context of everything the Alliance does during the game has to be re -evaluated because as presented talking to Cerberus is treason and actually working for Cerberus is punishable by death.

>>"I know where my loyalty lies. I'm an Alliance soldier, always will be." Yeah, REAL HARSH.<<

The problematic bit you didn't quote is "VS exits stage left" at which point you can't have a conversation anymore because the VS has gone off to do ...something? Not quite sure what is more important than a debriefing with the people who were there regardless of how Shepard's decisions hurt their feelings.

>>Huh? Being unable to drop everything and join Cerberus because of their duty and obligation to the Alliance makes them a "not nice person"? Being mindful of their duty as an Alliance officer makes them not a nice person? Approaching a situation like this as a professional rather than as a "friend" makes them not a nice person? Huh. <<

OK that one was a rather obscure but it was a reference to ' wicked men obey from fear; good men from love' given one of the arguments you were making was the VS reacted that way due to possible legal complications.

If the VS on Horizon is an example of the Alliance military's professional we are all utterly screwed. Besides you had previously set forth the argument that the VS was reacting as a friend with whom they had spent significant amounts of time - ie by defination not as a professional. If the VS was 'being mindful of their duty' they would have questioned Shepard thoroughly about what they knew about the Collectors, what they thought they knew about Cerberus etc, etc.

By all means treat Shepard as a hostile witness but having a rant and then leaving is far from professional (in fact comes pretty close to the defination of 'unprofessional conduct')

>>Yeah, "I don't trust Cerberus" is soooo unreasonable. ::facepalm**<<

Well much like that response it doesn't do much to develop the conversation does it? 'I don't Cerberus because.....' would have been helpful if the VS actually wanted to have a conversation but it becomes increasingly obvious during that scene that no matter what Shepard said apart from possibly 'my god you're right quick let me betray everyone on the ship who's counting on me and come with you to sit and rot on garrison duty' was going to end in the VS walking off.

>>Well, that's an awfully passive stance. The VS walked away before I could give them any information! Well, ask them to wait. Ask them to take your omni-tool data with them. Do SOMETHING. Don't just throw up your hands and pout because "they wouldn't listen". Yeah, BioWare didn't let the player do that. But that's not the VS' fault. It's Shepard's. The VS could have asked for more information, but really, what good is information from a source like Cerberus? They're CRIMINALS who have ACTIVELY OPPOSED THE ALLIANCE AND KILLED NUMEROUS ALLIANCE PERSONNEL. Who would really trust them under any circumstances? Really, that is the crux of my entire argument, and yet everyone is treating Cerberus like there a mildly sketchy corporation that cheats on their taxes, rather than a cadre of murderous thugs and human supremacists. Forgive me if I take their word with a massive grain of salt. And forgive me if the stain of Cerberus atrocities makes me less likely to trust Shepard. <<

Um not entirely sure where to start with this one but here goes. It's not the VS' fault for walking away? Surely they are mature, responsible adults who must therefore hold at least as much as responsibility for walking as Shepard does for letting them?

If you disagree with this one do please let me so I can rethink the whole discussion.

You then proceed to suggest that the information that the VS could have asked for, or been offered if they had been willing to hang around, is tainted by the source being Cerberus. Information is the business Cerberus practices and they are extremely good at it - even if the intelligence estimates are tainted by the source (possible, if I would argue somewhat unlikely) the scientific data about how to stop the seeker swarms either works or it doesn't regardless of ideology. Evidently as Shepard and co didn't get stung the armour modifications work - and they will work regardless of whether the person using them is Cerberus or not.

The crux of your entire argument once stripped of frills appears to be Cerberus is evil therefore anything done by Cerberus is evil therefore any actions Shepard takes in regard to Cerberus or as part of Cerberus except leaving or shooting them is evil therefore whatever the VS does in response is justified and they should hold no responsibility for their actions.

[TheMarshal]

Siansonea II wrote...

And that's a very Shepard-centric, emotional point of view. You can't just handwave Cerberus out of the equation. Shepard's great and all, but some things are bigger than both of them. And Cerberus is one of those things. You don't get to just ignore the atrocities that Cerberus committed, and overlook Shepard's involvement with Cerberus "because it's Shepard". That's the sort of thing that gets real people into real trouble in the real world.

And just why is Shepard so damned trustworthy anyway? Shepard is a Spectre who has been missing for two years, after being presumed dead after the Normandy SR-1 was attacked over Alchera. Shepard claims to have been in a coma for two years, and that Cerberus rebuilt her. Well, okay, whatever. And I'm just supposed to buy everything you say just because you were a hero two years ago? And because we mutinied together (with Captain Anderson's blessing and the full support of the Alliance fleet)? Because two years ago I thought I knew who you were and what you stood for? Yeah, that buys you some benefit of the doubt, but not a lot. The universe doesn't revolve around you, Shepard.

I suppose the VS's inability to look past the fact that Shepard is working with Cerberus stands out only because every other character is able to give Shepard the benefit of the doubt.

Tali joined up as soon as her duties with her people were fulfilled.
Garrus didn't blink before declaring his full faith in Shepard.
The Council re-instated Shepard's Spectre status (provisionally, but it's not nothing).
Anderson (and I guess Udina?) is at least cordial with Shepard despite all the rumors.  They didn't give away any trade secrets, but it wasn't "rawr rawr Cerberus!"
Hackett still asks Shepard for assistance on Alliance matters (although I'm like 40% sure he's at least somewhat involved with Cerberus).
Wrex, well..  either didn't know or didn't care about Shepard's involvement with Cerberus.  Still, his was the
warmest reception out of anyone.