1476 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

Dariustwinblade wrote...

Some of you VS fans acts like the Alliance is the ultimate source of pure good. And never committed and atrocity in its lifetime.

I kept the kenji's greybox and am eager to see what in it. Then I'll see what the VS defends the Alliance with. Heck if I'll give it to Liara to distribute the info to every government in the citadel.

Anderson was even working and talking with cerberus opertive in one of the LOTSB.

But the most amazing thing about the VS is how incompetent they proved in Horizon. Every single former squaddie acomplished something.

I think you misunderstand,  no one is saying the alliance is some sort of pinnacle of virtue.  People are saying that the VS are alliance soldiers,  and like any other good soldier (Which they have proven to be) they wouldn’t look casually on deserters who claim to have been resurrected from the dead and fighting for the “Bad guys.” 

Inept you say?  Oh come on what did Garrus accomplish besides pissing some powerful people off?  What did Tali do besides send some geth parts to her old man?  Sorry man Kaidan and Ash are Spectre the other two are just little people with little agenda,  and of course there’s Wrex who is attempting to salvage a species that seems to want to wipe itself out. 

I think someone’s just mad because their Marie Sue wasn’t felilated for once

[paul165]

>>Some of you VS fans acts like the Alliance is the ultimate source of pure good. And never committed and atrocity in its lifetime.<<

Yes indeed. Is Cerberus worse than the Alliance? Yes. Is Cerberus worse than the Council? Probably. Is Cerberus the source of all evil in the galaxy whilst every single Alliance officer is going to be clad in pearly white come judgement day? Obviously not, frankly by the standards of organisations in the ME Galaxy Cerberus still scores higher than Batarians or most of the businesses on Ilium if only by the virtue of having a reason other than profit.

>>Anderson was even working and talking with cerberus opertive in one of the LOTSB.<<

Would just love to know what that was about. Oh well fanfic fodder I suspect.

[Siansonea]

Dariustwinblade wrote...


Some of you VS fans acts like the Alliance is the ultimate source of pure good. And never committed and atrocity in its lifetime.


I kept the kenji's greybox and am eager to see what in it. Then I'll see what the VS defends the Alliance with. Heck if I'll give it to Liara to distribute the info to every government in the citadel.


Anderson was even working and talking with cerberus opertive in one of the LOTSB.

What the Alliance has done is not the issue. The issue is that the VS and Shepard were in the Alliance military together. Shepard was made a Spectre, which took her out of the Alliance military to some extent, but it didn't completely absolve her of her duty to the Alliance. It didn't make her a completely free agent. A Spectre answers to the Council, and only the Council, but Shepard isn't just a Spectre. She also represents humanity, specifically the Alliance, since she was affiliated with the Alliance when she was made a Spectre. So regardless of what the Alliance has or has not done, the Alliance expects her to act in their best interest. And the VS is STILL in the Alliance military. Do you think you can just switch sides in the middle of a war, because you think the other side is right? I'm sure it happens. I'm also sure that whatever side you defected from won't take kindly to it. They might even consider it—wait for it— a BETRAYAL. So yeah, nice try.


And Anderson talking to a Cerberus operative—really? That's all you got? How do you know that the person in question isn't an Alliance undercover operative? You don't. Neither do I. That doesn't prove anything, and it certainly doesn't have any bearing on the VS or what happened on Horizon. 


When you join the military, even as an officer, you don't get to make your own judgment calls on the really big matters unless you are very high up in the food chain. And even then you have severe limits you must work within. Shepard threw all that Alliance chain of command out the window when she decided to work for Cerberus. Most people took it pretty well, because, well, they had a good idea of what was at stake, OR they had less of a direct connection to the Alliance/Cerberus conflict. The VS is right smack in the middle of that conflict by virtue of their status as an Alliance soldier. A Spectre can do what she wants, a quarian can do what she wants, a free-agent turian or asari can do what they want, and random humans can do what they want. But an Alliance soldier doesn't quit the Alliance and join Cerberus with impunity. Something that Joker, Dr. Chakwas, Ken, Gaby and Jacob will probably all find out as well as Shepard.

But the most amazing thing about the VS is how incompetent they proved in Horizon. Every single former squaddie acomplished something. 

Yeah, I'd like to see how effective you are when you're paralyzed by seeker swarms, something you've never encountered before, by the way. That was a particularly childish jab at the VS, by the way. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 août 2011 - 07:36 .

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...


>>I think it's pretty self-evident that the higher-up you are in a chain of command, the more leeway you have to make judgment calls<<


It is highly unlikely the contacting Cerberus or Cerberus personnel is anything other than treason no matter how high ranking you are. Contacting the KGB as asking them for a favour would have been treason during the Cold War regardless of rank and the point about criminal offences is that one of the things that determines how likely people are to do them is the odds of being caught out. That is as true for a 12 year skipping homework as it is for an Alliance officer contacting Cerberus.


If contacting Cerberus is as you claim merely a matter of an arguable judgement call then the whole context of everything the Alliance does during the game has to be re -evaluated because as presented talking to Cerberus is treason and actually working for Cerberus is punishable by death.

Well, that's a very elaborate extrapolation of a very simple point I made. As I recall, Shepard is the one who showed up on the Citadel. Anderson sent an email to Shepard, not to Cerberus, and regardless, if you act with the blessing of the government, you can do things that others can't do. But that level of discretion is NOT something that the VS can do without repurcussions. 

>>"I know where my loyalty lies. I'm an Alliance soldier, always will be." Yeah, REAL HARSH.<<


The problematic bit you didn't quote is "VS exits stage left" at which point you can't have a conversation anymore because the VS has gone off to do ...something? Not quite sure what is more important than a debriefing with the people who were there regardless of how Shepard's decisions hurt their feelings.

Cat got your tongue, Shepard? Are you incapable of saying "Wait just a minute?" Yes, you are. Once again, Cerberus is THE ENEMY. Hanging around having a chitchat about what happened is probably not ever going to be in the cards. What part of CERBERUS IS THE ENEMY is not clear?

>>Huh? Being unable to drop everything and join Cerberus because of their duty and obligation to the Alliance makes them a "not nice person"? Being mindful of their duty as an Alliance officer makes them not a nice person? Approaching a situation like this as a professional rather than as a "friend" makes them not a nice person? Huh. <<


OK that one was a rather obscure but it was a reference to ' wicked men obey from fear; good men from love' given one of the arguments you were making was the VS reacted that way due to possible legal complications.


If the VS on Horizon is an example of the Alliance military's professional we are all utterly screwed. Besides you had previously set forth the argument that the VS was reacting as a friend with whom they had spent significant amounts of time - ie by defination not as a professional. If the VS was 'being mindful of their duty' they would have questioned Shepard thoroughly about what they knew about the Collectors, what they thought they knew about Cerberus etc, etc.


By all means treat Shepard as a hostile witness but having a rant and then leaving is far from professional (in fact comes pretty close to the defination of 'unprofessional conduct')

It's amusing that you think trusting Cerberus is an example of good judgment. You can't separate Shepard and Cerberus here. You either trust both of them, or neither, because they are TOGETHER. And when I wrote earlier about the VS having spent time with Shepard and understanding Shepard's character, I meant primarily from the standpoint of comrades-in-arms, colleagues, etc., because Shepard being "friends" with the VS is OPTIONAL. Shepard doesn't really even have to talk to the VS in the first game, and she can be a total b¡tch to him/her if she wants. But they at least respect her as a soldier in the first game, based on her actions as a Spectre and CO of the Normandy. Trying to make it sound like I was EVER stating that the VS approached Shepard mainly as a "friend" is disingenuous, and you know it.

>>Yeah, "I don't trust Cerberus" is soooo unreasonable. ::facepalm**<<


Well much like that response it doesn't do much to develop the conversation does it? 'I don't Cerberus because.....' would have been helpful if the VS actually wanted to have a conversation but it becomes increasingly obvious during that scene that no matter what Shepard said apart from possibly 'my god you're right quick let me betray everyone on the ship who's counting on me and come with you to sit and rot on garrison duty' was going to end in the VS walking off.

Yeah, because the breakdown in communication was all the VS' fault. Right. Let's see, the VS was doing their duty to the Alliance, and along comes Cerberus. They're outside of Alliance space, so the VS doesn't have the authority to arrest anyone associated with Cerberus. Do you really think it's appropriate for an Alliance soldier to sit down with a Cerberus agent and just gab for hours about this and that? And if you're mad at the VS for cutting the conversation short, well, that's just as silly as being mad about "you betrayed everything we stood for" and "I know where my loyalty lies". If Shepard has something to add, she can bloody well speak up. The VS felt that he/she had enough information to make his/her report. I don't see anything wrong with that. Really, this all sounds like a smoke screen for "he/she was mean to me and walked away!"

>>Well, that's an awfully passive stance. The VS walked away before I could give them any information! Well, ask them to wait. Ask them to take your omni-tool data with them. Do SOMETHING. Don't just throw up your hands and pout because "they wouldn't listen". Yeah, BioWare didn't let the player do that. But that's not the VS' fault. It's Shepard's. The VS could have asked for more information, but really, what good is information from a source like Cerberus? They're CRIMINALS who have ACTIVELY OPPOSED THE ALLIANCE AND KILLED NUMEROUS ALLIANCE PERSONNEL. Who would really trust them under any circumstances? Really, that is the crux of my entire argument, and yet everyone is treating Cerberus like there a mildly sketchy corporation that cheats on their taxes, rather than a cadre of murderous thugs and human supremacists. Forgive me if I take their word with a massive grain of salt. And forgive me if the stain of Cerberus atrocities makes me less likely to trust Shepard. <<


Um not entirely sure where to start with this one but here goes. It's not the VS' fault for walking away? Surely they are mature, responsible adults who must therefore hold at least as much as responsibility for walking as Shepard does for letting them?


If you disagree with this one do please let me so I can rethink the whole discussion.


You then proceed to suggest that the information that the VS could have asked for, or been offered if they had been willing to hang around, is tainted by the source being Cerberus. Information is the business Cerberus practices and they are extremely good at it - even if the intelligence estimates are tainted by the source (possible, if I would argue somewhat unlikely) the scientific data about how to stop the seeker swarms either works or it doesn't regardless of ideology. Evidently as Shepard and co didn't get stung the armour modifications work - and they will work regardless of whether the person using them is Cerberus or not.


The crux of your entire argument once stripped of frills appears to be Cerberus is evil therefore anything done by Cerberus is evil therefore any actions Shepard takes in regard to Cerberus or as part of Cerberus except leaving or shooting them is evil therefore whatever the VS does in response is justified and they should hold no responsibility for their actions.

Cerberus IS evil. Ask Admiral Kahoku's widow. Ask Corporal Toombs. Ask the parents of all the Alliance Marines that died on Akuze and Edolus. Ask JACK.


So yeah, I'm not going to approach Cerberus like they're some kind of misunderstood antihero organization. They're criminals. They're terrorists. I wouldn't trust anything they had to say. And Shepard doesn't offer anything but weak protests that Cerberus isn't as bad as everyone says. Again, let's ask Admiral Kahoku's widow if she's buying that, because I know I'm not.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 août 2011 - 07:56 .

[AVPen]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Inept you say?  Oh come on what did Garrus accomplish besides pissing some powerful people off?  What did Tali do besides send some geth parts to her old man?  Sorry man Kaidan and Ash are Spectre the other two are just little people with little agenda,  and of course there’s Wrex who is attempting to salvage a species that seems to want to wipe itself out.

Really? The VS is already a Spectre during Horizon??? Gosh, I must've missed that important bit of information in every single one of my ME2 playthroughs. 

Oh, wait, that's right... there's no evidence whatsoever that the VS is or was a Spectre in ME2, it's just something that VS fans claim without lack of concrete proof in order to make their favorite character appear even more superior to every other character in this video game franchise. <_<

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I think someone’s just mad because their Marie Sue wasn’t felilated for once

And you wonder why I dislike the VS fanbase so much with posts like this.

Modifié par AVPen, 04 août 2011 - 07:58 .

[Ryzaki]

Agreed. Me disliking the VS doesn't mean I'm upset my Shepard wasn't treated like a god. I certainly like the council (save the Turian but that's only because the airquoting pissed me off).

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...


>>Some of you VS fans acts like the Alliance is the ultimate source of pure good. And never committed and atrocity in its lifetime.<<


Yes indeed. Is Cerberus worse than the Alliance? Yes. Is Cerberus worse than the Council? Probably. Is Cerberus the source of all evil in the galaxy whilst every single Alliance officer is going to be clad in pearly white come judgement day? Obviously not, frankly by the standards of organisations in the ME Galaxy Cerberus still scores higher than Batarians or most of the businesses on Ilium if only by the virtue of having a reason other than profit.


>>Anderson was even working and talking with cerberus opertive in one of the LOTSB.<<


Would just love to know what that was about. Oh well fanfic fodder I suspect.

Regardless of all of these hamhanded Cerberus PR damage control attempts, the fact is that when it comes to making judgment calls about Shepard's involvement with Cerberus, it's largely above the VS' pay grade. They can't act as an independent operative here. Unless it is revealed that they were already a Spectre on Horizon (which I doubt). If that were the case, then it's a whole different story, and the VS WOULD have more latitude to explore Shepard's association with Cerberus a little more thoroughly. But I never got the impression that the VS is a Spectre on Horizon, because why would they keep that a secret? Spectres are not "secret agents".

[Siansonea]

AVPen wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Inept you say?  Oh come on what did Garrus accomplish besides pissing some powerful people off?  What did Tali do besides send some geth parts to her old man?  Sorry man Kaidan and Ash are Spectre the other two are just little people with little agenda,  and of course there’s Wrex who is attempting to salvage a species that seems to want to wipe itself out.

Really? The VS is already a Spectre during Horizon??? Gosh, I must've missed that important bit of information in every single one of my ME2 playthroughs. 

Oh, wait, that's right... there's no evidence whatsoever that the VS is or was a Spectre in ME2, it's just something that VS fans claim without lack of concrete proof in order to make their favorite character appear even more superior to every other character in this video game franchise. <_<

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I think someone’s just mad because their Marie Sue wasn’t felilated for once

And you wonder why I dislike the VS fanbase so much with posts like this.

Ah, so it really isn't about the VS at all, you just don't like the VS "fanbase". Okay, good to know.

For the record, I don't particularly consider myself a VS "fan". I like Ashley and Kaidan well enough, but neither of them is my favorite ME character of all time. And I don't even dislike Shepard. I like Shepard just fine. I just don't automatically assume Shepard is always right in every situation. 

Look at my avatar. It's Miranda. A Cerberus agent. I adore Miranda, she's complex, she's wicked, and she's got layers we haven't even seen yet. Yes, in the real world I would be on the opposing side of the conflict as Miranda, but I still enjoy her character. This discussion doesn't have anything to do with being a "fan" of this character over that character. 

[DoNotIngest]

*Shepard-punch to the face*


All right, Kaidan, I forgive you.

[Siansonea]

DoNotIngest wrote...

*Shepard-punch to the face*


All right, Kaidan, I forgive you.

That how you solve all your disagreements in real life? Good luck with that. 

[rapscallioness]

Yes, Shepard acted like a Derp on Horizon. And yes, the VS acted like an Ass. The VS knows he acted like an ass, thus the email apologizing for......acting like an ass.

Yes, Shepard, regardless of motives, is committing treason by working with Cerberus. That is definite. The Alliance was itching to bring her in for it even b4 the Arrival. The Council states that Shepard working with Cerberus is an act of treason from their perspective as well.

Yes, Shepard switched sides temporarily and in my Shepard's case, begrudgingly and with great excruciating pain, because it was either that, or let the colonists die.

Shepard sacrificed everything to help those ppl. Her name; her reputation; her standing; her friends; her lover and knew full well that she could be brought up on charges of treason. The Paragon Shepard I knew sacrificed it all to help those colonists. Her heart broke getting that email from a colonist begginf for help because no one else was doing anything to help them.

If no one else can understand that, then so be it. Shepard still has to do what she has to do, regardless of what others think they know about her.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...]
Yes. YES. 


Shepard is absolutely responsible for her actions, regardless of the game options. The options that BioWare gives the player are the options available to Shepard, limited by Shepard's circumstances, imagination, and perception. If other options don't exist, then from within the story that means that Shepard doesn't have the imagination or perception to pursue them, or she's limited by other circumstances. That's on her, and to some extent her circumstances. It's certainly not the fault of the other NPCs in the game that Shepard doesn't approach things differently.

And if the VS doesn't follow through on their own investigation into Cerberus' activities concerning the missing colonies, then that should be on him/her.  If Shepard's at fault for not approaching the Alliance (oh, wait, Shepard can go to the human Councilor!  And the Alliance ambassador/general at the Citadel!) then the VS is equally at fault for not digging for answers.

I mean, here's the VS, in front of the one person who can crack their investigation right open, the connection between the vanished colonies, the Collectors, and Cerberus, and they just walk away.   Not just walk away, but do a good job of burning the bridges behind them, in a singlualrly irrational outburst.

Do you truly think that Shepard's inability to contact the Alliance, further explain his/her situation to the VS, etc., is the fault and responsibility of Shepard i.e. the player himself/herself and not the writers of BioWare who deliberately decided and chose what Shepard can and can not do in the course of the video game's plot?

Yes. Because it's easy to blame BioWare for bad writing, but from a non-meta perspective, this is how the story goes. If Shepard doesn't contact the Alliance, within the story that's Shepard's fault. If Anderson doesn't brief the VS on Cerberus, that's Anderson's fault. If the VS doesn't ask the right questions, that's the VS' fault. In-universe, you have to evaluate what each character does without resorting to the meta-perspective of the game and the writers. The characters do things or don't do them, and they should be judged on that basis. Shepard doesn't do a lot of things that if she were a real person she could have done. BioWare didn't let her. We could say as players that it's BioWare's "bad", but inside the story the responsibility is Shepard's. Shepard can't tell the VS "I'm sorry, but I would have contacted the Alliance but the game wouldn't let me." She either didn't think to do that, or she felt she couldn't for some reason. But dismissing it as bad writing doesn't unring the bell.

I can and will blame Bioware for bad writing when a charaqcters' actions make no sense.

If Shepard was some marine Ash/Kaidan didn't know, that would be one thing.  If the VS was an Alliance representative Shepard didn't know, that would be another.  But the VS knows/knew Shepard.  And know what would be out of character for SHep.  Assuming Shepard was not some human supremacist, the VS should have known, KNOWN that something was up.  And want more details.  Particularly if teh VS was there INVESTIGATING CERBERUS INVOLVEMENT IN THE MISSING COLONIES!  And hey look, Cerberus, for once, is trying to do some good and protects a colony.   ANd here's Shepard, who could answer all questions.  If not volunteering information or going to the Alliance is on Shepard, the shoddy investigation is on Ash.  Can't have one without the other.  

Bad.  Writing.

Dunno. That's pretty hypothetical. I can say that I would be a lot more sympathetic toward Shepard if she had shown a little more empathy for the VS' point of view. The situation looks really bad from the VS' perspective, but instead of doing everything she can to allay the VS' concerns, she just expects the VS to trust her just because she's Shepard, and I think that's asking too much of ANYONE. 

Is it?  Look at what Shepard did:

Saved Eden Prime
Possibly saved the VS from the exploding beacon
Uncovered a traitorous Spectre
Became the first human Spectre
Fought off a resurgence of rachni on Noveria
Located the lost world of Ilos
Destroyed Saren's genophage cure
Saved the VS on Virmire
Stole the Normandy from the Citadel 
Found and used the Conduit
(possibly) saved Zhu's Hope from the thorian
(possibly) wrecked a number of Cerberus bases, disrupting thier projects
(possibly) headed off a major geth incursion
(possibly) saved Terra Nova
(possibly) saved the Council
(possibly) fought any number of pirates, mercenaries, asari commandos, thresher maws, etc

In short, Shepard accomplished a lot in the few short months the VS was around Shep.  Maybe good.  Maybe bad.  Maybe just amazing.  And on Horizon, it all counts for nothing   Zip.  Zero.  Zilch.  The past doesn't matter.  The fact that Shepard is there with Cerberus is all.  It is the thing and the whole of the thing.  There is no possible mitigating circumstance.  There is no explanation.  There is no Why, how, who, or what..  

This shouldn't be a  a case of  "It'sShepard!"  it should have been a case of "It's Shepard?"  It should have been about Shepard.  It should have been about what's changed, and what hasn't.  What the VS knew and what SHepard could have told.  Shepard's explanation failed.  But so did the VS.  You can't have one without the other.

[Siansonea]

For clarity's sake, here are the two apology emails:


Kaidan's apology to romanced FemShep:

Shepard,

I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. I spent two years pulling myself back together after you went down with the Normandy. It took me a long time to get over my guilt for surviving and move on. I'd finally let my friends talk me into going out for drinks with a doctor on the Citadel. Nothing serious, but trying to let myself have a life again, you know?

Then I saw you, and everything pulled hard to port. You were standing in front of me, but you were with Cerberus. I guess I really don't know who either of us is anymore. Do you even remember that night before Ilos? That night meant everything to me... maybe it meant as much to you. But a lot has changed in the last two years and I can't just put that aside.

But please be careful. I've watched too many people close to me die -- on Eden Prime, on Virmire, on Horizon, on the Normandy. I couldn't bear it if I lost you again. If you're still the woman I remember I know you'll find a way to stop these Collector attacks. But Cerberus is too dangerous to be trusted. Watch yourself.

When things settle down a little... maybe... I don't know. Just take care.

--Kaidan

Ashley's apology to romanced ManShep:

Subject: Hey there.

Shepard-

I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. When I lost you two years ago, it tore me up. I prayed for you every day. I read a lot of Tennyson, thinking about you, just like I did when my dad passed. And then you came back, and it was like my prayers were answered. But I'm not who I was then, and neither are you.

I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.

I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.

Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time.

--Ash

Death closes all: but something ere the end
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 août 2011 - 08:54 .

[Ryzaki]

Well my personal dream is: 

Shepard: Anyway we need to stop the Reapers. So Commander/Lieutenant do you have any ideas on that front?
VS: *gives good idea*
Shepard: Okay we'll go with that. Is there anything else? 
VS: Can we talk? 
Shepard: Is it related to the mission?
VS: No...not exactly-
Shepard: Then there's nothing to say. I need you to send the alliance some intel I collected from Cerberus while working with them. We'll need every resource we can pile to stop the Reapers. Is there any other information you want from me regarding my time from Cerberus? 
VS: No sir nothing else is needed.
Shepard: Alright then. *picks up some files while muttering about bothering another crew member and making them do half the damn work* 

I just want a pure business relationship. That to me is the ultimate FU. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 08:56 .

[MegaBadExample]

Ash: Hey I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon.
Shep: It's cool. Now let's go kick some reaper ass.
Ash: Like old times?
Shep: Like old times.

Yep, forgive and forget.

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 04 août 2011 - 08:56 .

[RGC_Ines]

There is one thing about VS I can't accept..After all they done in ME1, it's look for me, like they too easy accepted fact, that Council and Alliance tried to hide the truth about the Reapers. They probably do nothing in Shepard defence while Council and Alliance destroyed Shepard's work ( and in this same time VS work), lied about attack on Citadel, tried to silence old Normandy crew etc. Im interesting why after this Kaidan/Ash are still so pro-Alliance.

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...]
Yes. YES. 




Shepard is absolutely responsible for her actions, regardless of the game options. The options that BioWare gives the player are the options available to Shepard, limited by Shepard's circumstances, imagination, and perception. If other options don't exist, then from within the story that means that Shepard doesn't have the imagination or perception to pursue them, or she's limited by other circumstances. That's on her, and to some extent her circumstances. It's certainly not the fault of the other NPCs in the game that Shepard doesn't approach things differently.

And if the VS doesn't follow through on their own investigation into Cerberus' activities concerning the missing colonies, then that should be on him/her.  If Shepard's at fault for not approaching the Alliance (oh, wait, Shepard can go to the human Councilor!  And the Alliance ambassador/general at the Citadel!) then the VS is equally at fault for not digging for answers.

The same Councilor who "stonewalls" the VS. Funny how Anderson is getting off scott-free in all of this, when a simple heads-up from Anderson to the VS would avoided a ton of confusion on Horizon. 

I mean, here's the VS, in front of the one person who can crack their investigation right open, the connection between the vanished colonies, the Collectors, and Cerberus, and they just walk away.   Not just walk away, but do a good job of burning the bridges behind them, in a singlualrly irrational outburst.

This is sheer genius. Why hasn't anyone thought of this before! Instead of doing surveillance on the Mafia, why don't we just stroll up to a Mafia operative and ask them all about the organization and their activities. That would SO work! 


And really, THAT was "burning a bridge"?  It doesn't take much with you folks, does it? All someone has to do is question your decision and disagree with you. I foresee lots of burned bridges in your futures if that's all it takes.

Do you truly think that Shepard's inability to contact the Alliance, further explain his/her situation to the VS, etc., is the fault and responsibility of Shepard i.e. the player himself/herself and not the writers of BioWare who deliberately decided and chose what Shepard can and can not do in the course of the video game's plot?


Yes. Because it's easy to blame BioWare for bad writing, but from a non-meta perspective, this is how the story goes. If Shepard doesn't contact the Alliance, within the story that's Shepard's fault. If Anderson doesn't brief the VS on Cerberus, that's Anderson's fault. If the VS doesn't ask the right questions, that's the VS' fault. In-universe, you have to evaluate what each character does without resorting to the meta-perspective of the game and the writers. The characters do things or don't do them, and they should be judged on that basis. Shepard doesn't do a lot of things that if she were a real person she could have done. BioWare didn't let her. We could say as players that it's BioWare's "bad", but inside the story the responsibility is Shepard's. Shepard can't tell the VS "I'm sorry, but I would have contacted the Alliance but the game wouldn't let me." She either didn't think to do that, or she felt she couldn't for some reason. But dismissing it as bad writing doesn't unring the bell.

I can and will blame Bioware for bad writing when a charaqcters' actions make no sense.


If Shepard was some marine Ash/Kaidan didn't know, that would be one thing.  If the VS was an Alliance representative Shepard didn't know, that would be another.  But the VS knows/knew Shepard.  And know what would be out of character for SHep.  Assuming Shepard was not some human supremacist, the VS should have known, KNOWN that something was up.  And want more details.  Particularly if teh VS was there INVESTIGATING CERBERUS INVOLVEMENT IN THE MISSING COLONIES!  And hey look, Cerberus, for once, is trying to do some good and protects a colony.   ANd here's Shepard, who could answer all questions.  If not volunteering information or going to the Alliance is on Shepard, the shoddy investigation is on Ash.  Can't have one without the other.  


Bad.  Writing.

And I think your logic is flawed. You can say things should have happened differently, but they didn't, and we're stuck with what DID happen. So we can't just chalk it up to bad writing, we have to work with what we have. And what we have is a very confused VS who is justifiably appalled to see the once-trusted Shepard alive and with Cerberus, and that same Shepard spouting casual greetings and pro-Cerberus BS. So yeah, let's blame the VS for all the fail in this "badly written" situation. Couldn't be the player identifying too strongly with the player character, could it? No, never that.

Dunno. That's pretty hypothetical. I can say that I would be a lot more sympathetic toward Shepard if she had shown a little more empathy for the VS' point of view. The situation looks really bad from the VS' perspective, but instead of doing everything she can to allay the VS' concerns, she just expects the VS to trust her just because she's Shepard, and I think that's asking too much of ANYONE.

Is it?  Look at what Shepard did:


Saved Eden Prime
Possibly saved the VS from the exploding beacon
Uncovered a traitorous Spectre
Became the first human Spectre
Fought off a resurgence of rachni on Noveria
Located the lost world of Ilos
Destroyed Saren's genophage cure
Saved the VS on Virmire
Stole the Normandy from the Citadel 
Found and used the Conduit
(possibly) saved Zhu's Hope from the thorian
(possibly) wrecked a number of Cerberus bases, disrupting thier projects
(possibly) headed off a major geth incursion
(possibly) saved Terra Nova
(possibly) saved the Council
(possibly) fought any number of pirates, mercenaries, asari commandos, thresher maws, etc


In short, Shepard accomplished a lot in the few short months the VS was around Shep.  Maybe good.  Maybe bad.  Maybe just amazing.  And on Horizon, it all counts for nothing   Zip.  Zero.  Zilch.  The past doesn't matter.  The fact that Shepard is there with Cerberus is all.  It is the thing and the whole of the thing.  There is no possible mitigating circumstance.  There is no explanation.  There is no Why, how, who, or what..  
[/b][b]
This shouldn't be a  a case of  "It'sShepard!"  it should have been a case of "It's Shepard?"  It should have been about Shepard.  It should have been about what's changed, and what hasn't.  What the VS knew and what SHepard could have told.  Shepard's explanation failed.  But so did the VS.  You can't have one without the other.

So why is the VS the one who's on trial here?

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 août 2011 - 09:08 .

[Siansonea]

RGC_Ines wrote...

There is one thing about VS I can't accept..After all they done in ME1, it's look for me, like they too easy accepted fact, that Council and Alliance tried to hide the truth about the Reapers. They probably do nothing in Shepard defence while Council and Alliance destroyed Shepard's work ( and in this same time VS work), lied about attack on Citadel, tried to silence old Normandy crew etc. Im interesting why after this Kaidan/Ash are still so pro-Alliance.

Now THAT is a good point. How come the rest of you anti-VS folks didn't latch onto this? Why does the VS support the Council's and Alliance's stance on the Reapers?

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Well my personal dream is: 

Shepard: Anyway we need to stop the Reapers. So Commander/Lieutenant do you have any ideas on that front?
VS: *gives good idea*
Shepard: Okay we'll go with that. Is there anything else? 
VS: Can we talk? 
Shepard: Is it related to the mission?
VS: No...not exactly-
Shepard: Then there's nothing to say. I need you to send the alliance some intel I collected from Cerberus while working with them. We'll need every resource we can pile to stop the Reapers. Is there any other information you want from me regarding my time from Cerberus? 
VS: No sir nothing else is needed.
Shepard: Alright then. *picks up some files while muttering about bothering another crew member and making them do half the damn work* 

I just want a pure business relationship. That to me is the ultimate FU. 

Real mature.<_<

Yeah, giving someone the cold shoulder/silent treatment is SUCH an effective leadership tactic. Especially since you helped botch the original conversation in the first place. Nice. 

[MegaBadExample]

I'm sorry, this is off-topic. But Siansonea your banner is so damn funny lol

[Siansonea]

MegaBadExample wrote...

I'm sorry, this is off-topic. But Siansonea your banner is so damn funny lol

Who says pretty blonde girls can't be badasses? 

But yeah, off-topic. So how about that VS? 

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...
Real mature.<_<

Yeah, giving someone the cold shoulder/silent treatment is SUCH an effective leadership tactic. Especially since you helped botch the original conversation in the first place. Nice. 

How is treating them with respect and consideration immature? Ra forbid someone not want to be friends! 

Yes but of course! Shepard should have to be warm buddies with the VS! Obviously!  And while Shepard helped the VS burned that bridge well on their own. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 09:18 .

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Real mature.<_<

Yeah, giving someone the cold shoulder/silent treatment is SUCH an effective leadership tactic. Especially since you helped botch the original conversation in the first place. Nice. 

How is treating them with respect and consideration immature? Ra forbid someone not want to be friends! 

Yes but of course! Shepard should have to be warm buddies with the VS! Obviously!  And while Shepard helped the VS burned that bridge well on their own. 

If one of your subordinates wants to talk, you listen. You don't give them a song-and-dance and then brush them off in a faux-businesslike way. But you do things your way, I'll do things my way. If I'm ever in a position to supervise or command others, I'll hear them out, regardless of what they want to talk about. Because I don't want anything to get in the way of their performance of their duties. Because I might be able to help them. Because I've got better things to do than be mad at people who questioned my authoritah.

A valuable asset is one who WILL question their superiors, who WILL speak up if they feel ethical boundaries are being crossed. That's a person whose counsel I will seek out. 

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...
If one of your subordinates wants to talk, you listen. You don't give them a song-and-dance and then brush them off in a faux-businesslike way. But you do things your way, I'll do things my way. If I'm ever in a position to supervise or command others, I'll hear them out, regardless of what they want to talk about. Because I don't want anything to get in the way of their performance of their duties. Because I might be able to help them. Because I've got better things to do than be mad at people who questioned my authoritah.

A valuable asset is one who WILL question their superiors, who WILL speak up if they feel ethical boundaries are being crossed. That's a person whose counsel I will seek out. 

Ah the assumption that it's because they didn't bow and kiss my Shep's feet is why I permanetly put them in business zone. Please. 

Oh sure. And in my view that valued asset is one who will also think about a situation in full before making snap judgements. Someone who will take history and past behavior into account before he/she opens his/her mouth. Someone who gives the benefit of the doubt, someone who doesn't let emotions rule over reason. The VS failed utterly at that. 

But like you said you do your things your way and I'll do them mine.   

Though a tweaking wouldn't be remiss "You did what you had to do Lieutenant/Commander. I'll do the same." 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 09:38 .

[rapscallioness]

@Siansonea okay so we know you're ticked with Shepard and fully support the VS' actions and statements on Horizon.

As far as restoring the trust with VS do you think Shepard should apologize to VS for working with Cerberus? Or forget the whole thing? I've read thru most of the thread, perhaps I missed that part.