1476 replies to this topic

[Kilshrek]

Depending on how you played, Shep still has Spectre status and is in good standing with the Council? How does that work then?

[crimzontearz]

sooooooo let's see how Horizon felt to me

I went there with Garrus and Mordin

Shepard juuuuuuuust saved Ash's ***......AGAIN

Ash: shepard? you are ALIVE? and with CERBERUS?

Shepard:...uh...I died, they brought me back and I am using their funding to save human colonies like this one since the alliance is doing nothing apparently.

Ash: -fingers in her ears- LALALALALALALALALALA you lie, LALALALALALALA cerberus is reponsible,LALALALALALALA can't hear you.

Shepard: uh, remember Garrus? he is right there working with me Anderson gave me his blessing and got the alliance to stand down, hackett has my back, the council re instated me as a spectre....

Garrus: that's right

Ash: LALALALALALALA can't hear you, LALALALALALA cerberus did it, LALALALALALA you are a terrorist too, LALALALALALA reporting to the alliance


yeah, I want to at least give them an earful, watch them own up to their stupidity and then MAYBE I won't let them rot on the normandy

Edited by crimzontearz, 07 July 2011 - 01:53 AM.

[Sheppard-Commander]

Malanek999 wrote...

Sheppard-Commander wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Sheppard-Commander wrote...
Just because you cant predict the future, doesnt mean you should blind yourself to the potential outcomes of it.

Nor should you jump to completely unfounded conclusions. Are you saying it would have been a better thing to let the collectors carry out their reaper construction?

Hello? Pot? Hey, its Malanek999. Just wanted to say, dude you are so black. It's not even funny.

You spent the whole game assissting Cerberus, and now they are working for the enemy...yet you assume that that whole time you where really the one pulling the strings when you where entirely reliant on TIM to piece together the picture for you. A picture that could have easily been manipulated to show you what he wanted you to see and nothing more, provided the proper motivation was in place.

How was destroying the collector base assisting cerberus? How was uploading compromising information about them to the alliance assisting cerberus? How was shutting down project overlord and freeing archer assisting cerberus? How was taking control of their top of the line ship assisting cerberus?

Again, are you actually saying it would have been better to do nothing and leave the collectors to construct a reaper? Answer that question.

Sheppard-Commander wrote...
Except that the accusation that Cerberus was behind the attack on Horizon was true, not false.

Even if that is true and it was in fact Cerberus who were behind that particular attack (which they weren't but I really can't add more than has already been said) that wasn't even the accusation. The VS accused Cerberus of being behind the attacks that had already taken place. Explain how that accusation is true.

That should have read "working for" not "assisting" but...

Cerberus studies the remains of the Collector base. Something that they would have never been able to do had you not destroyed it. How did wiping out the Rogue VI and leaving every bit of data Cerberus had on Geth control help them? Gee...I wonder how that could end up helping Cerberus? Cerberus had bugged the ship extensively, and EDI/Miranda regularly filed reports on virtually every bit of business conducted on the SR2. I'm sure there was no valuable insight gained from that, right?

I'm not answering your continued attempts to derail the conversation further, sorry. The decision is irrelevant in this discussion, the consequences are not.

Cerberus lured the Collectors to Horizon. Yes, they where behind the attack. Thats the great thing about facts, YOU dont have to agree with them but it doesnt change what they are.

[Made Nightwing]

crimzontearz wrote...

sooooooo let's see how Horizon felt to me

I went there with Garrus and Mordin

Shepard juuuuuuuust saved Ash's ***......AGAIN

Ash: shepard? you are ALIVE? and with CERBERUS?

Shepard:...uh...I died, they brought me back and I am using their funding to save human colonies like this one since the alliance is doing nothing apparently.

Ash: -fingers in her ears- LALALALALALALALALALA you lie, LALALALALALALA cerberus is reponsible,LALALALALALALA can't hear you.

Shepard: uh, remember Garrus? he is right there working with me Anderson gave me his blessing and got the alliance to stand down, hackett has my back, the council re instated me as a spectre....

Garrus: that's right

Ash: LALALALALALALA can't hear you, LALALALALALA cerberus did it, LALALALALALA you are a terrorist too, LALALALALALA reporting to the alliance


yeah, I want to at least give them an earful, watch them own up to their stupidity and then MAYBE I won't let them rot on the normandy

I didn't create this thread to debate about what happened on Horizon. You think it was Ash being a moron, I think it was Shepard going off the rails slightly/being too full of his own ego to take other people's perspectives into account. Regardless, I want to discuss ways in which that conflict can be resolved.

[crimzontearz]

I was pretty clear in what I believe (not to mention I believe it was awful writing too....I mean if Ash was told the Council, Anderson and Hackett were backing Shepard she should have calmed down...but we were not given the option)

the only way to resolve the conflic in my mind is them owning up to it not just doing Shepard a favor or ignoring orders.

that or a GPS blast to the face, whichever is easier. Yes sometimes I hold a grudge

[Malanek]

Made Nightwing wrote...
I didn't create this thread to debate about what happened on Horizon. You think it was Ash being a moron, I think it was Shepard going off the rails slightly/being too full of his own ego to take other people's perspectives into account. Regardless, I want to discuss ways in which that conflict can be resolved.

If you can't agree on the cause it can be difficult to reach a resolution. I believe horizon is fundamental to it. As I said earlier in the thread, up to the VS to provide the facts of what they learned on horizon during the trial.

[Made Nightwing]

laecraft wrote...

It's not that I don't trust VS to follow Alliance orders - quite the opposite, VS already proved that they're very good at following Alliance orders, even if it means betraying Shepard and humanity. Problem is, what if Alliance's orders interfere with my plans for saving the galaxy - again? It already happened in the past, and you know what VS did. What is the situation repeats itself, but this time, something crucial depends on VS? Would you really want a sleeper enemy on your ship? Someone who stabs you in the back in the vital moment?

Of course, many people would say to see it from VS perspective, and I can. The Reapers' agent, for example, who works with me, wins my trust, only to get closer to me and stab me in the back when everything is at stake, is indoctrinated. I can see why the agent is doing what he is, and the reasons behind his actions. That doesn't mean I have to rely on him when the galaxy is at stake.

Whatever VS does, I will always question their motives. Are they doing it to win my trust, to get closer to me? Are they trying to infiltrate my inner circle, only to undermine my efforts at fighting the Reapers? Are they going to sacrifice the Earth and the galaxy, because they're under orders to do something else, something more important than saving all life in the galaxy - like bring down Cerberus?

Simply put, my trust was already given, and it was broken. VS already had an opportunity to show that they have faith in Shepard and would follow him into hell itself. For some reason, every other former teammate was capable of overcoming everything to help Shepard. Only VS turns their back on Shepard and humanity in their darkest hour. No one else does.

Trust issues aside, I can't imagine what must happen for me to like VS again. Even if they testify on trial for Shepard, even if they save Shepard's life, even if they die making some heroic sacrifice - none of that can overwrite Horizon. I don't even dislike VS. I just don't want anything to do with VS. Let them serve somewhere on Alliance ship - far away from me.

See, VS is just like every other servicemen on the Alliance. They're one of those who wanted to bring Shepard into custody when the Collectors were harvesting human colonies. The little difference is, VS was slightly better informed - they knew about the Reapers, knew who Shepard was - so their choice was an informed betrayal, rather than simply "doing my job." Why would I feel anything for VS except for mild distrust? Fact is, a new character has much better chances at winning my interest.

Trust is a two way street. VS has their own mission, there's a rumour going around that they're responsible for the destruction of the batarian orbital mirror system (mentioned in news flashes in ME2), something the batarians were cooking up to make life unpleasant for human colonies.

Liara also refuses to acompany Shepard, because she has her own commitments and responsibilities, some of them threaten galactic peace (aka Shadowbroker and his alliance with the Collectors). Wrex also turns down the opportunity to join you because he has his own goals to pursue. Liara is significantly better informed and Wrex just doesn't see the world the way a human soldier would. Anderson, your best friend and mentor, says he can't come because of his responsibilities to humanity and the Alliance.

Sacrificing Earth and all life in the Galaxy? Just to take down Cerberus? Whatever weed you're smoking, I want some. The VS is loyal to the Alliance, but they're also loyal to you. At the moment of truth at Horizon, they had a choice. Go the unshaky route with a man you trusted, but who has been dead and is now working with a terrorist organisation, or stay the course with the organisation that has been their way of life since they were very young. Unsurprisingly, they chose that which was familiar, just like you and I would have done.

The other characters didn't have that kind of divided loyalty. Tali's team had just been killed on a mission which she doesn't think was important enough to justify their sacrifice, she was mildly angry at the Admiralty Board and had no problems serving with Shepard. Garrus had abandoned his C-Sec post, searching for something to believe in, when his old friend came and saved his life. To put it quite succintly, every other character had a black and white view that put Shepard squarely in the right. Ashley/Kaidan was slightly more complicated.

[Made Nightwing]

Malanek999 wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
I didn't create this thread to debate about what happened on Horizon. You think it was Ash being a moron, I think it was Shepard going off the rails slightly/being too full of his own ego to take other people's perspectives into account. Regardless, I want to discuss ways in which that conflict can be resolved.

If you can't agree on the cause it can be difficult to reach a resolution. I believe horizon is fundamental to it. As I said earlier in the thread, up to the VS to provide the facts of what they learned on horizon during the trial.

True enough.

[crimzontearz]

Made Nightwing wrote...

laecraft wrote...

It's not that I don't trust VS to follow Alliance orders - quite the opposite, VS already proved that they're very good at following Alliance orders, even if it means betraying Shepard and humanity. Problem is, what if Alliance's orders interfere with my plans for saving the galaxy - again? It already happened in the past, and you know what VS did. What is the situation repeats itself, but this time, something crucial depends on VS? Would you really want a sleeper enemy on your ship? Someone who stabs you in the back in the vital moment?

Of course, many people would say to see it from VS perspective, and I can. The Reapers' agent, for example, who works with me, wins my trust, only to get closer to me and stab me in the back when everything is at stake, is indoctrinated. I can see why the agent is doing what he is, and the reasons behind his actions. That doesn't mean I have to rely on him when the galaxy is at stake.

Whatever VS does, I will always question their motives. Are they doing it to win my trust, to get closer to me? Are they trying to infiltrate my inner circle, only to undermine my efforts at fighting the Reapers? Are they going to sacrifice the Earth and the galaxy, because they're under orders to do something else, something more important than saving all life in the galaxy - like bring down Cerberus?

Simply put, my trust was already given, and it was broken. VS already had an opportunity to show that they have faith in Shepard and would follow him into hell itself. For some reason, every other former teammate was capable of overcoming everything to help Shepard. Only VS turns their back on Shepard and humanity in their darkest hour. No one else does.

Trust issues aside, I can't imagine what must happen for me to like VS again. Even if they testify on trial for Shepard, even if they save Shepard's life, even if they die making some heroic sacrifice - none of that can overwrite Horizon. I don't even dislike VS. I just don't want anything to do with VS. Let them serve somewhere on Alliance ship - far away from me.

See, VS is just like every other servicemen on the Alliance. They're one of those who wanted to bring Shepard into custody when the Collectors were harvesting human colonies. The little difference is, VS was slightly better informed - they knew about the Reapers, knew who Shepard was - so their choice was an informed betrayal, rather than simply "doing my job." Why would I feel anything for VS except for mild distrust? Fact is, a new character has much better chances at winning my interest.

Trust is a two way street. VS has their own mission, there's a rumour going around that they're responsible for the destruction of the batarian orbital mirror system (mentioned in news flashes in ME2), something the batarians were cooking up to make life unpleasant for human colonies.

Liara also refuses to acompany Shepard, because she has her own commitments and responsibilities, some of them threaten galactic peace (aka Shadowbroker and his alliance with the Collectors). Wrex also turns down the opportunity to join you because he has his own goals to pursue. Liara is significantly better informed and Wrex just doesn't see the world the way a human soldier would. Anderson, your best friend and mentor, says he can't come because of his responsibilities to humanity and the Alliance.

Sacrificing Earth and all life in the Galaxy? Just to take down Cerberus? Whatever weed you're smoking, I want some. The VS is loyal to the Alliance, but they're also loyal to you. At the moment of truth at Horizon, they had a choice. Go the unshaky route with a man you trusted, but who has been dead and is now working with a terrorist organisation, or stay the course with the organisation that has been their way of life since they were very young. Unsurprisingly, they chose that which was familiar, just like you and I would have done.

The other characters didn't have that kind of divided loyalty. Tali's team had just been killed on a mission which she doesn't think was important enough to justify their sacrifice, she was mildly angry at the Admiralty Board and had no problems serving with Shepard. Garrus had abandoned his C-Sec post, searching for something to believe in, when his old friend came and saved his life. To put it quite succintly, every other character had a black and white view that put Shepard squarely in the right. Ashley/Kaidan was slightly more complicated.

I'd like to point out that that changes after LOTSB, at which point Liara is pretty much on your team providing intel, services and contacts....you know..just not on the normandy.


as for the second bolded part, in MY playthrough the man working with the terrorist organization was

1: backed up by councillor Anderson
2: re instated as a spectre
3: Backed up by Hackett
4: supported by the Council in his mission in the terminus


you know.......just throwing it there

[rapscallioness]

@Nightwing...okay, okay..catharsis moment. I see, how do we fix this lover's fight. whew, tough one

1) in the real world when lover's fight neither can agree on the cause. Both have their sides; their own valid and invalid points.

2) Both have lost trust in the other, whether right or not.

So, we have these two characters that imo still care for each other, but all this other stuff is going on with them. I see it growing back little by little But I'm thinking something fairly dramatic would have to happen to either one where that character is in danger. Real danger, not just mission stuff.

It would take something fairly dramatic to break the crusts of a too much pride, mistrust and just being stubborn. Bring home the shock and realization that they could lose each other again..and Cerberus isn't bringing anyone back this time.

Not involving the Reapers that's too main story and big showdown. Somewhere mid story after the tension thing. Some mishap, an explosion. It goes terribly wrong. Happens while on a mission, but somewhere near the end of the mission----a cut scene that deals with it. Then back to Normandy..in each others arms because they realized all that other fussing wasn't important. They had each other now, and a galaxy to save, dammit!

So basically some life or death situation for one of the characters that reminds them both how much the other means to them.

Oh, and it should be one of the two that saves the other one. It doesn't matter which. Not just one character manages to get out by a close call. There should be some "saving" going on.

This could even work in a Bro mance.

Edited by rapscallioness, 07 July 2011 - 03:05 AM.

[Chuvvy]

They stayed on the ship in ME1, no big change.

[Fidget6]

Players need to get over the damn Horizon incident. It ruined the character of Kaidan/Ash for a lot of people, and why? It was a completely reasonable reaction considering the circumstances. It seems that they've moved on by ME3, you should too.

[Rahmiel]

We still don't know the exact reason Ash was on Horizon (and I assume the VS, mine was Ash). You can ask Anderson about it (post Horizon obviously) and he says it's classified info. Given your affiliation with cerberus, he can't reveal it. So.. if you want to talk about trust issues.. (again, I don't blame Anderson, but if anyone is going to trust you, you would think it would be Anderson).

I also believe that the VS was in the right. Hell, I had such a hard time wearing the cerberus unis and seeing their insignia everywhere.. I absolutely hate cerberus. It's not my fault they resurrected me. I owe them nothing. "Hey, thanks for bringing me back.. btw, you're terrorists and I'm taking you down." Which is pretty much how I played my Shep.

Given my choices to bring down cerberus at every turn, I see no reason for tension between the VS and shep. I wouldn't be opposed to a "oh, hey.. sorry about horizon" moment, but there already was that email about it. Still.. wouldn't mind the in person apology where both sides apologise and admit they have nothing to apologise for.

[Funkcase]

I cant believe some people take simple arguments to heart so much, you would think they have no social lives and have never had a relationship before.

I find it more funny that they consider the VS in the wrong, and Shepard right. Im sure Cerberus are working for the Reapers.. How they were right makes me wonder if they knew more about what Cerberus were doing than Shepard.

Edited by Funkcase, 07 July 2011 - 03:09 AM.

[Fidget6]

Funkcase wrote...

I cant believe some people take simple arguments to heart so much, you would think they have no social lives and have never had a relationship before.

I know I've had arguments with my best friend. Bad ones. It doesn't mean we're going to hate each other forever. All of that trust and respect we've built up between each other doesn't just go away over one fight.

[Ryzaki]

I really hope someone else has warp other than Liara or Kaidan. I will sadface if my adept has to drag them around for warp bombs. 

...well that or make him an infiltrator. 

And I find those qqing about how others qqing amusing. 

Edited by Ryzaki, 07 July 2011 - 03:11 AM.

[shepskisaac]

Fidget6 wrote...

Players need to get over the damn Horizon incident. It ruined the character of Kaidan/Ash for a lot of people, and why? It was a completely reasonable reaction considering the circumstances. It seems that they've moved on by ME3, you should too.

QTF. They dared to disagree with Shep and had full right to do so looking at the situation from their POV = "ZOMG how dare they're not loyal to me no matter what I do!!!11" for many. Ridiculous.

[rapscallioness]

We're just having fun trying to figure out how a situation like that could play itself out in the story.

[Rahmiel]

Ryzaki wrote...

I really hope someone else has warp other than Liara or Kaidan. I will sadface if my adept has to drag them around for warp bombs. 

...well that or make him an infiltrator. 

The only issue I had with biotics (squad members, that is) is they were pretty useless.  If I played a soldier in ME1, I brought a mix of tech, and biotic squad members.  In ME2, you bring a biotic squadmate, they're pretty useless.  I suppose I could use pull field and then concussive blast, but.. unless I am near a bridge or cliff, and time it correctly will it actually kill them?  I found a biotic squaddie to be rather useless.  So that meant I had to double up on my biotic squaddie which I didn't like, because then I became weaker against tech.  I couldn't keep my mix.

I did read in the big ME3 features list thread that the biotic system was redone, so hopefully I can go back to bringing a tech and biotic squaddie.  Hopefully, this will also mean that you don't need to bring liara or kaiden.  I hear Jack will be in the third one  

[Ryzaki]

Memmahkth wrote...
The only issue I had with biotics (squad members, that is) is they were pretty useless.  If I played a soldier in ME1, I brought a mix of tech, and biotic squad members.  In ME2, you bring a biotic squadmate, they're pretty useless.  I suppose I could use pull field and then concussive blast, but.. unless I am near a bridge or cliff, and time it correctly will it actually kill them?  I found a biotic squaddie to be rather useless.  So that meant I had to double up on my biotic squaddie which I didn't like, because then I became weaker against tech.  I couldn't keep my mix.

I did read in the big ME3 features list thread that the biotic system was redone, so hopefully I can go back to bringing a tech and biotic squaddie.  Hopefully, this will also mean that you don't need to bring liara or kaiden.  I hear Jack will be in the third one  

 

I don't know. Biotics were pretty useful to my Shep. Just not the biotic squaddies (the DR is the one place they shined though. Bowling ball husks!  ) I just needed someone with warp to set up my warp bombs. It would be nice if I didn't have to worry about that in ME3 though. 

Jack's not an option for me either. (Plus she doesn't have warp). I just hope Miranda or a new Sentinel is in ME3. 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Fidget6 wrote...

Players need to get over the damn Horizon incident. It ruined the character of Kaidan/Ash for a lot of people, and why? It was a completely reasonable reaction considering the circumstances. It seems that they've moved on by ME3, you should too.

It would have been a 'reasonable reaction' to someone that they barely knew, but Shepard they know and Shepard is the person who saved the galaxy from being eaten by the Reapers two years ago.... I repeat he saved the galaxy two years ago. They could have showed him the benefit of the doubt that maybe just maybe Shepard is working with Cerberus for a reason... maybe the fact that Shepard has the backing of the Council, Anderson, and Hacket may mean something.

Instead all they did was have the nerve to call Shepard a traitor...what a reasonable thing to call the person that just saved you from being abducted and turned into a sticky paste.

[BobZilla84]

I actually feel that Ashley/Kaiden never lost my shepards trust but I am questioning the continuation of said Romances I understand their reaction on Horizon it's expected but I don't know how the Romance can be salvaged properly and not be cheesy.

Slightly off Topic
But I believe it is not the VS's Trust and Loyalty but rather the Alliance and the Council's which should be evaulated.

I still think that Ash/Kaiden where made a Spectre to replace Shepard who by this time was considered a deranged mad man and not to mention the Alliance turned on Shepard as well. Not to say they don't deserve there new positions but I still figure it's politics

Shepard's a very powerful and dangerous individual not to mention I mean Shepard has killed at least 2 Council Spectre's "Saren & Tela Vasir" not to mention he has allies in the Rachni,Geth,Quarians and Krogans. I figure the Council see's Shepard becoming Saren

[Funkcase]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Fidget6 wrote...

Players need to get over the damn Horizon incident. It ruined the character of Kaidan/Ash for a lot of people, and why? It was a completely reasonable reaction considering the circumstances. It seems that they've moved on by ME3, you should too.

It would have been a 'reasonable reaction' to someone that they barely knew, but Shepard they know and Shepard is the person who saved the galaxy from being eaten by the Reapers two years ago.... I repeat he saved the galaxy two years ago. They could have showed him the benefit of the doubt that maybe just maybe Shepard is working with Cerberus for a reason... maybe the fact that Shepard has the backing of the Council, Anderson, and Hacket may mean something.

Instead all they did was have the nerve to call Shepard a traitor...what a reasonable thing to call the person that just saved you from being abducted and turned into a sticky paste.

It would have been reasonable if Shepard a leader of men and women of several races could actually explain him/herself to them, instead Shepard mumbles on about Cerberus like he was there mascot, and the other options he's just incredibly vague.

You do realise that Anderson didn't trust Shepard dont you? That's why he wouldn't talk about the VS, and he approved of the mission on Horizon.

[Malanek]

Ryzaki wrote...
I really hope someone else has warp other than Liara or Kaidan. I will sadface if my adept has to drag them around for warp bombs. 

In a screenshot we saw of Liara's power list she didn't have warp. From memory she had Singularity, Stasis, Throw and something called Lift Orb. Might have had something else as well but definately no Warp. We were told it isn't final though. Theres always possibilities of Miranda, Thane and/or Wrex. Or someone new.

Edited by Malanek999, 07 July 2011 - 03:34 AM.

[Ryzaki]

Malanek999 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I really hope someone else has warp other than Liara or Kaidan. I will sadface if my adept has to drag them around for warp bombs. 

In a screenshot we saw of Liara's power list she didn't have warp. From memory she had Singularity, Stasis, Throw and something called Lift Orb. Might have had something else as well but definately no Warp. We were told it isn't final though. Theres always possibilities of Miranda, Thane and/or Wrex. Or someone new.

That's good then.  

Thanks for the info. 

Wrex on squad again would be EPIC. I doubt it...but EPIC!