Siansonea II wrote...
Baby Doll Sweetheart Face, if the Alliance is embroiled in corrupt activities, I'm pretty sure the VS would not overlook that. They're Alliance soldiers, not robots. They'll buck the Alliance if the Alliance is doing something unethical, and once they actually know what's going on, Shepard's time with Cerberus will make a lot more sense to them.
Or Luna Station? Riiiight.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 10:35 .
hhh89 wrote...
Could you two just wait 5 minutes? I'm going to make some popcorn. This is better than a film.
hhh89 wrote...
By the way, I don't think that VS did something wrong on Horizon, from what they knew. They saw they former "dead" commander working with an enemy.
Ryzaki wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
Baby Doll Sweetheart Face, if the Alliance is embroiled in corrupt activities, I'm pretty sure the VS would not overlook that. They're Alliance soldiers, not robots. They'll buck the Alliance if the Alliance is doing something unethical, and once they actually know what's going on, Shepard's time with Cerberus will make a lot more sense to them.
Right like they didn't overlook Lord Darius?
I have - it's one of the reasons why I'm rather curious as to what the VS's personal stand is on Shepard's warnings of the Reapers and why I sorta wonder if the VS doesn't truly believe in the Reaper threat like Shepard or even Anderson.Siansonea II wrote...
RGC_Ines wrote...
There is one thing about VS I can't accept..After all they done in ME1, it's look for me, like they too easy accepted fact, that Council and Alliance tried to hide the truth about the Reapers. They probably do nothing in Shepard defence while Council and Alliance destroyed Shepard's work ( and in this same time VS work), lied about attack on Citadel, tried to silence old Normandy crew etc. Im interesting why after this Kaidan/Ash are still so pro-Alliance.
Now THAT is a good point. How come the rest of you anti-VS folks didn't latch onto this? Why does the VS support the Council's and Alliance's stance on the Reapers?
Modifié par AVPen, 04 août 2011 - 10:47 .
Siansonea II wrote...
They were under Shepard's command at the time, assigned to a Spectre ship. What exactly were they supposed to do, Dearest Darling Light Of My Life? I'm sure they trusted Shepard to take care of things properly. Those things were well above their pay grade at that time, and I sincerely doubt they were going to make an end run around Shepard when there was a pressing mission. I'm sure after the dust settled, the VS probably did make extensive statements about those very missions to the appropriate parties. As well as their own actions during the "stealing of the Normandy". The VS isn't an unthinking rule-follower, they take the entire situation into consideration. But they can only act based on their own knowledge and experience. Shepard can have an epic snit if she wants, but it doesn't change the fact that she's there under extremely dubious circumstances in the company of probably the worst "ancillary villain" from the first game. Expecting the VS to blindly follow Shepard under those circumstances is beyond egocentric.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 10:55 .
Siansonea II wrote...
Mission Brief from Councilor Anderson to Commander Alenko
Commander, I wanted to give you some intel I've just discovered that's related to your investigation. I was visited on the Citadel by Commander Shepard. Yes, she's alive, at least it appears to be her and C-Sec's security scanners confirm it's her and not a clone. Those scanners can't pick up things like Indoctrination though. Which brings me to my next bit of intel. She's with Cerberus, or at least she's working with them in some capacity. She insists that the only reason that she's with them is because they're trying to stop the human colony abductions. This might be the "Cerberus involvement" that we've been getting reports about, I don't know. Shepard says that the Collectors are responsible, and the data packet she gave me has some compelling evidence that she gathered from Freedom's Progress. As you know, by the time we got there all we found was some destroyed mechs and traces of quarian blood. Turns out your former teammate Tali'Zorah was there with Shepard, you might want to give her a call and get her take on what happened there.
In any case, as you know we have reports that Horizon is one of the next colonies that will be hit. If Cerberus has the same intel we have, and if Shepard is on the level, then more than likely she will show up on Horizon at some point too. Hopefully she'll be able to explain Cerberus' role in all of this to you, I wasn't really able to get much out of her. She did ask about you though. For what it's worth, the Council has reinstated her Spectre status, so you might want to approach her from the standpoint of a Spectre rather than a Cerberus representative, I definitely got the sense that she was none too happy about Cerberus herself. Maybe she can help you get those guns online if she does show up on Horizon. I would have told her about you being on Horizon, but I can't trust Cerberus, and I think it's a good idea to see just how good Cerberus' intel is. So if she does show up on Horizon, let me know. Good luck.
Councilor Anderson
You don't like down with dogs, and not expect to get fleas. You can't tout your "integrity" when you're tooling around the galaxy with a criminal enterprise's logo on your ship. That's just narcissistic to think everyone should think you're a paragon of honor even when you're working for a criminal organization. Concerned about your honor? Don't dishonor yourself, it's as simple as that.
Well, I think that "restoring trust with the VS" works both ways. Shepard has a lot of 'splainin' to do. The VS is being unjustly maligned for being "too emotional" and "not listening", when the fact of the matter is that their point of view is much more understandable than Shepard's. Shepard seems to expect everyone to just accept Cerberus as some innocuous benefactor, but that doesn't fly. Not with Cerberus' history. Not by a long shot.
Modifié par iakus, 04 août 2011 - 11:18 .
AVPen wrote...
"Shepard, no one else encountered the hologram on Ilos that told you the truth about the Reapers. Only you and your crew ever spoke to Sovereign."
Whoa, wait a minute, Anderson.... neither Ashley or Kaidan are ever able to be in Shepard's crew when he speaks to Sovereign on Virmire. Now I don't know about you, but you would think that would have some kind of psychological effect on Shepard and whatever crewmates (Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Liara) who can listen to his conversation with Sovereign VS. Ashley and Kaidan who are unable of being with Shepard during his face-to-face encounter with a true Reaper - to never hear and witness just how much of a cold, unknowable, and utterly alien (in every sense of the word) god-like being that a actual living Reaper is, that has got to have some kind of effect on the VS that separates them from Shepard and those four other crewmates listed.
(of course, since there is so damn little information and background about the VS given in ME2 - which in of itself is a huge contribution to this "VS Trust" problem - I'm just speculating)
Ryzaki wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
They were under Shepard's command at the time, assigned to a Spectre ship. What exactly were they supposed to do, Dearest Darling Light Of My Life? I'm sure they trusted Shepard to take care of things properly. Those things were well above their pay grade at that time, and I sincerely doubt they were going to make an end run around Shepard when there was a pressing mission. I'm sure after the dust settled, the VS probably did make extensive statements about those very missions to the appropriate parties. As well as their own actions during the "stealing of the Normandy". The VS isn't an unthinking rule-follower, they take the entire situation into consideration. But they can only act based on their own knowledge and experience. Shepard can have an epic snit if she wants, but it doesn't change the fact that she's there under extremely dubious circumstances in the company of probably the worst "ancillary villain" from the first game. Expecting the VS to blindly follow Shepard under those circumstances is beyond egocentric.
Here you go again assuming I expect the VS to follow Shepard at all. I expect them to think. They weren't doing a lot of that on Horizon. Instead the followed the Alliance party line that Shepard = TRAITOR and ran with it. But it's easier to debate if you try to argue a strawman right?
If they had been far more "...I don't trust Cerberus Shepard...but something is going on that bigger than them. I need to look into this." I would've been cool with them walking off with (or without) a "Be careful." Instead "TRAITOR1!!111. I'm morally superior to you because I stayed with the alliance so there!!!11" It just makes me shake my head.
But really I'm not expecting the VS to kiss my Shep's ass. Hell i that happens I'm more liable to get annoyed. I want a nice frosty relationship on both ends. Businesslike on both sides would be swell. Nice and cold a symbol of how different their relationship changed due to time and circumstance. If you want the relationship to remain the same or grow stronger more power to you. I want it to shatter and break. I already got my "Rage and anger made the relationship stronger." with Wrex. It would be nice if there was someone in Shep's crew who worked with him/her but couldn't stand him/her and it wasn't only because he/she didn't do his/her loyalty mission the right way or dared pick someone else in a fight.
iakus wrote...
AVPen wrote...
"Shepard, no one else encountered the hologram on Ilos that told you the truth about the Reapers. Only you and your crew ever spoke to Sovereign."
Whoa, wait a minute, Anderson.... neither Ashley or Kaidan are ever able to be in Shepard's crew when he speaks to Sovereign on Virmire. Now I don't know about you, but you would think that would have some kind of psychological effect on Shepard and whatever crewmates (Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Liara) who can listen to his conversation with Sovereign VS. Ashley and Kaidan who are unable of being with Shepard during his face-to-face encounter with a true Reaper - to never hear and witness just how much of a cold, unknowable, and utterly alien (in every sense of the word) god-like being that a actual living Reaper is, that has got to have some kind of effect on the VS that separates them from Shepard and those four other crewmates listed.
(of course, since there is so damn little information and background about the VS given in ME2 - which in of itself is a huge contribution to this "VS Trust" problem - I'm just speculating)
Actually, the one you assign to Kirahe's team can't be with you for the Sovereign conversation, but the other can.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 11:36 .
iakus wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
Mission Brief from Councilor Anderson to Commander Alenko
Commander, I wanted to give you some intel I've just discovered that's related to your investigation. I was visited on the Citadel by Commander Shepard. Yes, she's alive, at least it appears to be her and C-Sec's security scanners confirm it's her and not a clone. Those scanners can't pick up things like Indoctrination though. Which brings me to my next bit of intel. She's with Cerberus, or at least she's working with them in some capacity. She insists that the only reason that she's with them is because they're trying to stop the human colony abductions. This might be the "Cerberus involvement" that we've been getting reports about, I don't know. Shepard says that the Collectors are responsible, and the data packet she gave me has some compelling evidence that she gathered from Freedom's Progress. As you know, by the time we got there all we found was some destroyed mechs and traces of quarian blood. Turns out your former teammate Tali'Zorah was there with Shepard, you might want to give her a call and get her take on what happened there.
In any case, as you know we have reports that Horizon is one of the next colonies that will be hit. If Cerberus has the same intel we have, and if Shepard is on the level, then more than likely she will show up on Horizon at some point too. Hopefully she'll be able to explain Cerberus' role in all of this to you, I wasn't really able to get much out of her. She did ask about you though. For what it's worth, the Council has reinstated her Spectre status, so you might want to approach her from the standpoint of a Spectre rather than a Cerberus representative, I definitely got the sense that she was none too happy about Cerberus herself. Maybe she can help you get those guns online if she does show up on Horizon. I would have told her about you being on Horizon, but I can't trust Cerberus, and I think it's a good idea to see just how good Cerberus' intel is. So if she does show up on Horizon, let me know. Good luck.
Councilor Anderson
While all that would be nice to hear (assuming the comm systems on Horizon were still working) Much of that could have been gained if the VS asked Shepard those questions personally:
VS: "You really are working with Cerberus? Why?"
Shepard: "Human colonies are disappearing, Cerberus was the only organization trying to stop it"
VS: "Are you sure it's not Cerberus? If it's not them, then who?"
Shepard: It's the Collectors. Here, I got some footage from Freedom's Progress. Tali was there, she can verify it"
VS: Why haven't you gone to the Alliance with this? Or to the Council?"
Shepard: I did. Anderson spoke up for me, but the Council thinks I'm nuts. They made me a Spectre again, which is nice, though it doesn't carry much weight in the Terminus. What didn't Anderson contact you?
VS: Cmmunicationss are down. Probably by these "Collectors" of yours.
Shepard: Bummer. Think they took out the comm buoys?
VS: Dunno Look this is a lot to take in right now. You're supposed to be dead. And you working with Cerberus is hardly any more believable. Half the colony I was supposed to protect has been abducted by the big brothers of the Keepers, and Cerberus of all people rode in to the rescue. We're going to find a quiet place to sit down and you're going to tell me exactly what the frak is going on
Shepard: Sure, the Illusive Man can wait. It's not like I take orders from him or anything. Nope. Not. At. All.
You don't like down with dogs, and not expect to get fleas. You can't tout your "integrity" when you're tooling around the galaxy with a criminal enterprise's logo on your ship. That's just narcissistic to think everyone should think you're a paragon of honor even when you're working for a criminal organization. Concerned about your honor? Don't dishonor yourself, it's as simple as that.
But Shepard is not "working for" a criminal organizaton. He's working "with" and only then to a limited degree. And yet, this association wipes away everything that has gone before? All the good Shepard has done throughout ME1, that the VS has personally witnessed, gets flushed down the toilet because of the SR2's vanity plates? Guilt by association?
When Shepard goes to trial will he have to claim under oath "I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the Cerberus Party"?
So why is the VS the one who's on trial here?
Because the name of the thread is "Restoring Trust with the VS" not "Restoring Trust with Shepard" or "Restoring Trust with Anderson"
Believe it or not, all this time I've also been on another thread arguing that Ashley has not betrayed Shepard and the fences can be mended.
Well, I think that "restoring trust with the VS" works both ways. Shepard has a lot of 'splainin' to do. The VS is being unjustly maligned for being "too emotional" and "not listening", when the fact of the matter is that their point of view is much more understandable than Shepard's. Shepard seems to expect everyone to just accept Cerberus as some innocuous benefactor, but that doesn't fly. Not with Cerberus' history. Not by a long shot.
And the VS is no innocent in this either. He or she wasn't just not listening, but seemed to have no intention of listening either. He/she doesn't even try to get answers. If they witnessed Shepard doing something...Cerberus-like, maybe. But Shepard just saved a colony. Shepard does not expect people to accept Cerberus (my Shepaed didn't anyway) he expected them to accept him, his record.
His paragonhood that said
"I would only do this for a really really good reason" Like steal the Normandy
"I don't trust these guys, but I have no other arrows in my quiver" And I killed a bunch of them a couple of years ago
"I wouldn't never harm a human colony" I have in fact saved no less than four in my career (Elysium, Eden Prime, Terra Nova, Zhu's Hope)
"I protect others even at great risk" Like saving the rachni queen, saving the Council, spared Shiala, talked down Major Kyle, the biotic terorists, etc.
But all this counted for nothing in the VS's analysis.
Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 août 2011 - 11:23 .
Ryzaki wrote...
And there you keep going with the "I must think Shepard can do no wrong." sentiment. You really like hearing yourself go on about that don't you? Even when I don't think that? That poor strawman is just burning at this point. And yes hun. You're strawmanning. "Oh noes she insulted the VS! Let me put on my internet defense hat and act like the VS is an actual person! Let me also miscontruct her arguement into something simple and silly so I can look witty while deconstracting that!"
But yes I expected the VS to think about why it made sense for a turian (not just any turian but a turian they personally know!) to join a pro-human organization if it didn't involve hard evidence against the Reapers. Why it made sense for Shepard to join them. Why it made sense that the Collectors were working with Ceberus despite the fact that Shepard and Co just drove the Collectors off. How it made sense that Cerberus was involved in the disappearences despite the Collectors.
And hell to even ask for (or demand) the anti-seeker swarm armor so they could distrubute it to other alliance soldiers who went to darkened colonies!
That's not asking alot.
I wasn't aware that business like = petulant child but whatever rocks your "I'm on my self righteous crusade and nothing can stop me." boat.
That said I throw my hat in. You obviously like to go on and on about unrelated crap and I'm not gonna waste my time.
Modifié par iakus, 04 août 2011 - 11:33 .
paul165 wrote...
I feel that your VS is somewhat over fond of 'above my pay grade'. For crying out loud (wo)man make a decision!
If it was the right decision that would be even better but I'd settle for some signs of independant thought rather than repeating the party line.
Both the VS and Shepard were at fault on Horizon and any attempt to fix that in ME3 should hopefully be difficult and painful - not because I dislike the VS but because you don't come back from a disaster like that conversation without severe effort, well not unless you trivialise it anyway. And besides think of the accomplishment should you manage to do it!
One of my imagined interactions between the VS and Shepard in ME3 is that they are arguing - about a course of action, about Earth, about Cerberus it doesn't really matter and someone moves just a little too fast...
Suddenly both of them are staring at each other with guns drawn and neither knows how to fix it anymore. Then they just stop and someone says very tired 'I guess we know whether we can work together now'. At which point they holster weapons and proceed to spend the rest of the mission being exceedingly polite and exceedingly distant. Bonus points if the other squadmates from ME1 notice and even better (worse?) try to fix it.
Obviously only works for a Shepard that didn't manage to convince the VS of their better intentions but I think it would be a good, if tragic, end for those Shepards who wouldn't or couldn't compromise about their actions.
I'm a sucker for tragic endings - too many David Drake books I suspect.
Siansonea II wrote...
Yeah, because the VS is the only one who's responsible for the failure to communicate on Horizon. Shepard's just the innocent victim, unjustly accused of working with Cerberus. Oh wait, she was working with Cerberus. Hmmm.
Sure there are plenty of questions the VS could have asked, but I don't recall Shepard giving satisfactory answers to any of the questions the VS did ask, so I can't imagine why it's the VS' fault that the encounter went so poorly.
Modifié par iakus, 04 août 2011 - 11:41 .
Siansonea II wrote...
The only thing I've ever sought is for people to at least try to be fair to the VS. People are heaping so much bile and hatred onto the VS, for no other reason than the VS saw things differently than Shepard did. Because of "you betrayed everything we stood for" and "I know where my loyalties lie" and having the nerve to walk away from Shepard before Shepard could get in the last word. And I think it's because the player identifies so strongly with Shepard that they just accept without question that Shepard's side of the street is always tidy, that Shepard is never even partially at fault for a situation that goes awry. Yeah, because Shepard has shown herself to be such a shrewd person. Freakin' Amanda Kenson gets the drop on Shepard. Shepard has the perception and insight of a pyjak. Good thing she can shoot a gun.<_< So yeah, heaping all the blame on the VS, it's just not rational. The VS didn't act perfectly, and if anyone thinks that's what I'm saying, I'm not. But nothing Shepard said or did steered the conversation anywhere but down.
Modifié par iakus, 04 août 2011 - 11:44 .
paul165 wrote...
>>The only thing I've ever sought is for people to at least try to be fair to the VS. People are heaping so much bile and hatred onto the VS, for no other reason than the VS saw things differently than Shepard did. Because of "you betrayed everything we stood for" and "I know where my loyalties lie" and having the nerve to walk away from Shepard before Shepard could get in the last word. And I think it's because the player identifies so strongly with Shepard that they just accept without question that Shepard's side of the street is always tidy, that Shepard is never even partially at fault for a situation that goes awry. Yeah, because Shepard has shown herself to be such a shrewd person. Freakin' Amanda Kenson gets the drop on Shepard. Shepard has the perception and insight of a pyjak. Good thing she can shoot a gun.smilie So yeah, heaping all the blame on the VS, it's just not rational. The VS didn't act perfectly, and if anyone thinks that's what I'm saying, I'm not. But nothing Shepard said or did steered the conversation anywhere but down.<<
Fair enough I do agree that sometimes the people who support the Shepard has divine right to kill anyone they want scare the hell out of me.
The problem to me with fixing it regardless of actions is that if Horizon showed anything it proved that both Shepard and the VS are both stubborn as hell and capable of failing diplomacy checks by the dozen.
So given where we are and without having either Shepard or the VS roll over and play dead - how do you fix it?
iakus wrote...
I checked. VS asks two questions
Why didn't you contact me?
What if Cerberus was behind the Collector attacks?
Everything else is pretty much veiled or not so veiled accusations
Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2011 - 03:26 .
Modifié par Badpie, 05 août 2011 - 03:36 .
Abispa wrote...
hhh89 wrote...
By the way, I don't think that VS did something wrong on Horizon, from what they knew. They saw they former "dead" commander working with an enemy.
Bioware decided to NOT include Liara or the VS in ME2 because they didn't want to have to come up with a convoluted reason why THEY couldn't die while everyone else could. I wish it had been written better, but at the same time I don't obsess over it too much now that they've explained why they did it.
Badpie wrote...
I don't need things to be frosty between the Ash or Kaidan and Shepard, but I wouldn't mind some awkwardness for the first conversation or so.
Horizon basically went like this:
VS: WTF?
Shep: Eh.
It was so badly written. It should have been at least:
VS: WTF?
Shep: I KNOW. EXPLANATION.
VS: Oddly skeptical yet trusting!
But none of that happened so I have to canonize in my head that "emotions" were "running high" for romanced and non-romanced Ash and Kaidans, which I can then understand.
I wish non-romantic Shepards would have gotten an email from them after as well, just to say "that was weird, but I get it after I cooled off." But they didn't get that.
At most I think the whole thing warrants one good conversation with a little "yeah I may have been a jerk" from both sides. Then they move on and kick some Reaper butt.
I don't think trust will be that hard to reestablish to be honest.
....unless the writing sucks again...
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