1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Goneaviking]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes let's ignore everything else that occurs when Shep shows up with Cerberus.

It's more like said soldier sees a supernatural threat, spends the next year ranting about it toyour superiors who roll their eyes, you've seen said threat in the flesh however and were by his sie when he deflected for a while (another treasonous act) and cae back to save the day. Now he ends up dying in some bizarre suprise attack with some technologically advanced foe (which the first threat was...hm...could they be connected! O:) and you find yourself in a small town that Al Queada was suspected to attack in their recent kidnapping spress (there's no evidence but that's what your peeps assume). Turns out some more weird enemies are the ones who attack you and your friend (and some members of Al Queada along with another of your old friends) show up and save your ass.
Then you don't even bother asking "WTF was trying to kill me!" you instead jump down his throat about him working with Al-Queda.

Membership in al-Qaeda is illegal. It's activities have consistently been demonstrated to be both illegal and immoral. That al-Qaeda's objectives are legitimate does not mitigate the horrors they've unleashed.

If you believe that a defecting soldier would be treated any better because he was motivated by belief in a greater supernatural threat and a messianic purpose then you your perception of reality is far removed from my own.

In game Shepherd was a spectre, able to investigate whatever potential threats he deems important. Had he presented himself to Anderson and Udina before rumours were leaked that he'd joined Cerberus there is every likelihood that he would have been given a new ship and crew to continue his fight against the Reapers. Admiral Anderson is certainly influential enough to have arranged that, and motivated since he proclaims to believe Shepard's story.

But that's not what happened. Instead he makes his appearance in the company of Cerberus, with a Cerberus ship and crew, being funded by Cerberus after months of rumours that had been deliberately leaked that he'd changed sides and was going to attack Horizon. The fact that there is another threat to human colonies than Cerberus does neither mitigates, nor excuses the actions of Cerberus.

That in a two minute reunion the VS favours the information circulating in the back of her mind during an emotionally charged reunion seems neither implausible, nor unforgivable given that that's the way humans behave.

TheMarshal wrote...
Cerberus isn't trying to
kill the Alliance.  It'd be more like a soldier goes missing and is
discovered to be working for Blackwater or some other private
organization that's caused more harm than good.

Mypost was in response to the quote below, Ubermensch007 invokes "Freedom of Assembly", but Cerberus is an illegal organisation. It is an illegal organisation, because it is a terrorist organisation. Membership of terrorist organisation is illegal and Freedom of Assembly does not apply.

Blackwater, despite its revolting behaviour and statements by its founder implying he believes that he's involved in a holy war, is not considered a terrorist organisation. Although the group officially disbanded and a new group was established with the name to avoid legal consequences, membership of Blackwater was never deemed illegal.

Also, while Cerberus isn't trying to destroy the Alliance they've demonstrated that they have no problem with ambushing and killing Alliance soldiers, or conducting atrocious experiments upon survivors of those attacks. Mass Effect 1 provides ample evidence of that.

ubermensch007 wrote...

[snip]
Last time I checked there is this little thing called Freedom of assembly, sometimes used interchangeably with the freedom of association, is the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests.[1] The right to freedom of association is recognized as a human right, a political freedom and a civil liberty.

Just because someone is working for Cerberus, does not mean that they can be arrested for this..The N7: Lost Operative Mission makes it clear that if what's on that data file is decipherd.Than Cerberus may very well be considered to be criminals. And there abilty to move smoothlty through the inter-galactic community would be difficult.But a person can be a member of the Crypts or Bloods.Or KKK for that matter.If the lawful authorities have no proof that they have done anything illegal themselves.They can't do d!ck...If there aren't a pair of matches in their hands, drugs in their pockets or recently fired firearm on their person.They can go about their buisness scott free.

The same goes for Cerberus Operatives...

Modifié par Goneaviking, 05 août 2011 - 08:31 .

[Saberchic]

darkness reborn wrote...

When John Shep talks to Ashley in ME3 (she is also his LI) he's going to all: 
 

Then he dumps her. 

^^  Have fun with that. I'm sure BW will include that option as one way to resolve the Vs/Shep relationship.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Okay kids, it's okay to work WITH al-Qaeda, as long as it's for "the right reasons". 

Swim at your own risk, though. If you spend the rest of your life in federal prison serving time for treason, I will have to say "I told you so" at some point. 

Invasion of sentient starships bent on ending organic life in the galaxy isn't "the right reason"? 

Superman and Lex Luthor has banded together for less;)

And of course, there are plenty of paragon Sheps who, aside from actually agreeing to work alongside TIM to stop the colony abductions, have done absolutely nothing to harm the Alliance, the Council, or any Terminus governments.  Heck my Shepard did what he could to SHUT DOWN Cerberus projects (Overlord) send the Alliance important Cerberus files (N7: Lost Operative) and seized every possible conversation option to put down Cerberus (precious few though there are)

My paragon Shep intends to voluntarilly tuen himself in to the Alliance to stand trial.  And if the epilogue to ME3 has him serving time for daring to save the galaxy by allying himselof with the lesser evil, well, at least there is an Alliance to hold him prisoner :innocent:

What the VS seems to have forgotten is that there are intentions behind actions.  Context is everything.

If I say to you "A man hits his brother on the head with a hammer"  Am I describing a Three Stooges episode or a Stephen King novel?  Is it comedy or horror?  

SImilarly, If I say "An Alliance hero allies with a terrorist organization" What kind of event am I describing?

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Okay kids, it's okay to work WITH al-Qaeda, as long as it's for "the right reasons". 

Swim at your own risk, though. If you spend the rest of your life in federal prison serving time for treason, I will have to say "I told you so" at some point. 

Invasion of sentient starships bent on ending organic life in the galaxy isn't "the right reason"? 

Prove it.

Without resorting to "dream interpretation" or circumstantial evidence. Regardless, there is no clear connection between the Collectors and the Reapers UNTIL Horizon. So, what, Shepard was just taking it on faith up until that point?

And regardless, if you want to join Cerberus because you think you have to, fine. You do that. But don't expect the rest of the galaxy to just shrug and say "I'm sure Shepard knows what she's doing". Nope. You still gotta pay the piper. 

Superman and Lex Luthor has banded together for less;)

And of course, there are plenty of paragon Sheps who, aside from actually agreeing to work alongside TIM to stop the colony abductions, have done absolutely nothing to harm the Alliance, the Council, or any Terminus governments.  Heck my Shepard did what he could to SHUT DOWN Cerberus projects (Overlord) send the Alliance important Cerberus files (N7: Lost Operative) and seized every possible conversation option to put down Cerberus (precious few though there are)

My paragon Shep intends to voluntarilly tuen himself in to the Alliance to stand trial.  And if the epilogue to ME3 has him serving time for daring to save the galaxy by allying himselof with the lesser evil, well, at least there is an Alliance to hold him prisoner :innocent:

What the VS seems to have forgotten is that there are intentions behind actions.  Context is everything.

And Shepard seems to have forgotten that she is expected to be held accountable for her decisions, that she doesn't automatically get a free pass to do whatever she wants. If she wants to work with terrorists, she'd better be prepared for the inevitable backlash. And by backlash, I mean mild rebuke from the VS. Thin-skinned much, Shepard? <_<

If I say to you "A man hits his brother on the head with a hammer"  Am I describing a Three Stooges episode or a Stephen King novel?  Is it comedy or horror?  

SImilarly, If I say "An Alliance hero allies with a terrorist organization" What kind of event am I describing?

Is that a trick question? Because it looks pretty clear to me that the Alliance hero just turned in her Alliance hero card, and traded it for a terrorist card. I guess it was her choice to do so, but I'm not going to just look the other way and shrug my shoulders. 

[Ryzaki]

Goneaviking wrote...


Membership in al-Qaeda is illegal. It's activities have consistently been demonstrated to be both illegal and immoral. That al-Qaeda's objectives are legitimate does not mitigate the horrors they've unleashed.

If you believe that a defecting soldier would be treated any better because he was motivated by belief in a greater supernatural threat and a messianic purpose then you your perception of reality is far removed from my own.

Of course because I said that he'd be treated differently by everyone. Perception of reality?Real nice. Not to mention Anderson and Hackett send your "being treated any better." remark on its head because you know...they kind of do 

In game Shepherd was a spectre, able to investigate whatever potential threats he deems important. Had he presented himself to Anderson and Udina before rumours were leaked that he'd joined Cerberus there is every likelihood that he would have been given a new ship and crew to continue his fight against the Reapers. Admiral Anderson is certainly influential enough to have arranged that, and motivated since he proclaims to believe Shepard's story.

Which would be swell if you know...Shepard wasn't DEAD while those rumors were being spread .

But that's not what happened. Instead he makes his appearance in the company of Cerberus, with a Cerberus ship and crew, being funded by Cerberus after months of rumours that had been deliberately leaked that he'd changed sides and was going to attack Horizon. The fact that there is another threat to human colonies than Cerberus does neither mitigates, nor excuses the actions of Cerberus. 

That in a two minute reunion the VS favours the information circulating in the back of her mind during an emotionally charged reunion seems neither implausible, nor unforgivable given that that's the way humans behave.

Nope instead he saves their ass with Cerberus as well as Horizon. There's absouletely no reason at all to stop and think "hm...something might be up here." 

Never said it was implausible or unforgivable. My Sheps won't forgive her for it though. Well maybe he will in truth he never liked the VS anyway. Horizon simply proved his first instinct right. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2011 - 09:21 .

[shepskisaac]

I knew I would find Ryzaki here.

[Siansonea]

Saberchic wrote...

I'm not sure the al-Qaeda analogy works well.

Cerberus seems to be a more extreme version of the Alliance whereas the Alliance is making sure to protect humans and fight for humanity (politically as well as militarily). Cerberus seems to be more human dominance goal-oriented.

They're both "fighting for humanity" but do it really differently. The al-Qaeda reference doesn't quite hold the same meaning.

Either way, the VS is well within their rights to be wary. Look at all the experiments in ME1 that we shut down. Cerberus is classified as a known terrorist organization with both the Alliance and the Council races.

I can understand why they were shocked and acted the way they did even though I would have preferred they had a little more faith in me (Shep).

Yeah, to my knowledge al-Qaeda doesn't torture children or inject Marines with poisons "for science". But they do murder plenty of people, just like Cerberus. So in that respect, the analogy holds. But we can find other examples of real world groups who routinely murder military personnel and conduct unethical and immoral experiments on living humans. Anybody got any ideas? 

[Goneaviking]

Ryzaki wrote...

Of course because I said that he'd be treated differently by everyone. Perception of reality?Real nice. Not to mention Anderson and Hackett send your "being treated any better." remark on its head because you know...they kind of do 

Anderson and Hackett are both fictional characters, they behave the way they do because it's what the stories narrative demands it. That doesn't make it convincing, but I let it pass because I generally enjoy the game.

Within the context of the game Anderson reached out to Shepard to determine if the rumours were true, VS sensibly dismissed the rumours out of hand. Given that, it makes sense.

Ryzaki wrote...

Which would be swell if you know...Shepard wasn't DEAD while those rumors were being spread .

And then he wasn't. VS believed Shepard was dead, didn't occur to them that the rumours were true and then suddenly Shepard walks up to them as if nothing has happened and suddenly VS has absolute proof that Shepard isn't dead as previously believed which adds a lot of credibility to rumours they've been hearing for these last few months.

Ryzaki wrote...

Nope instead he saves their ass with Cerberus as well as Horizon. There's absouletely no reason at all to stop and think "hm...something might be up here." 

Never said it was implausible or unforgivable. My Sheps won't forgive her for it though. Well maybe he will in truth he never liked the VS anyway. 

There's a lot of reason to stop and think things through, but when two years worth of grieving is suddenly turned on it's head then emotions are almost certainly going to be in the driving seat. The first instinct is going to be anger at the belief that Shepard let them think they were dead for all this time.

I'm not going to condemn someone for an understandable emotional outburst, at the very least I'll give them a chance to rebuild the friendship if they want to. If your Shepherd never liked them anyway, then there's no reason they'd suddenly like the VS in ME3 regardless of the incident on Horizon.

[Goneaviking]

Siansonea II wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

I'm not sure the al-Qaeda analogy works well.

Cerberus seems to be a more extreme version of the Alliance whereas the Alliance is making sure to protect humans and fight for humanity (politically as well as militarily). Cerberus seems to be more human dominance goal-oriented.

They're both "fighting for humanity" but do it really differently. The al-Qaeda reference doesn't quite hold the same meaning.

Either way, the VS is well within their rights to be wary. Look at all the experiments in ME1 that we shut down. Cerberus is classified as a known terrorist organization with both the Alliance and the Council races.

I can understand why they were shocked and acted the way they did even though I would have preferred they had a little more faith in me (Shep).

Yeah, to my knowledge al-Qaeda doesn't torture children or inject Marines with poisons "for science". But they do murder plenty of people, just like Cerberus. So in that respect, the analogy holds. But we can find other examples of real world groups who routinely murder military personnel and conduct unethical and immoral experiments on living humans. Anybody got any ideas? 

Al-Qaeda has name recognition and at this point doesn't require any introduction. I've never believed that analogies had to match up point by point, the important things were as you said they murder lots of people, and also that merely being a member of the organisation can get you incarcerated for years, if not decades.

Freedom of association isn't going to protect anyone if they join an illegal organisation.

[Ryzaki]

Goneaviking wrote...
Anderson and Hackett are both fictional characters, they behave the way they do because it's what the stories narrative demands it. That doesn't make it convincing, but I let it pass because I generally enjoy the game.

Within the context of the game Anderson reached out to Shepard to determine if the rumours were true, VS sensibly dismissed the rumours out of hand. Given that, it makes sense.

Nothing about Shepad working with Cerberus or mecha chutlu robots comping to kill everyone is convincing either if you want to be that way.  Hell humanity being so uber special that they get a spectre in under half a century isn't believeable either. 

The VS didn't sensibly dismiss the rumors out of hand on Horizon. 

And then he wasn't. VS believed Shepard was dead, didn't occur to them that the rumours were true and then suddenly Shepard walks up to them as if nothing has happened and suddenly VS has absolute proof that Shepard isn't dead as previously believed which adds a lot of credibility to rumours they've been hearing for these last few months.

So...no "How did they bring you back to life!" no curiosty about what attacked the ship in the first place? I'm supposed to believe this? 

And the rumors credibility is shattered the second Cerberus drives the Collector's away. Since you know the rumors involved Cerberus being the ones making the colonies disappear. The VS now has direct evidence to the contrary. 

There's a lot of reason to stop and think things through, but when two years worth of grieving is suddenly turned on it's head then emotions are almost certainly going to be in the driving seat. The first instinct is going to be anger at the belief that Shepard let them think they were dead for all this time.

I'm not going to condemn someone for an understandable emotional outburst, at the very least I'll give them a chance to rebuild the friendship if they want to. If your Shepherd never liked them anyway, then there's no reason they'd suddenly like the VS in ME3 regardless of the incident on Horizon.

True. 

My issue is my Shepard never liked Tali yet in ME2 it's assumed they're BFFs. If the same happens with the VS...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2011 - 09:39 .

[Siansonea]

Goneaviking wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

I'm not sure the al-Qaeda analogy works well.

Cerberus seems to be a more extreme version of the Alliance whereas the Alliance is making sure to protect humans and fight for humanity (politically as well as militarily). Cerberus seems to be more human dominance goal-oriented.

They're both "fighting for humanity" but do it really differently. The al-Qaeda reference doesn't quite hold the same meaning.

Either way, the VS is well within their rights to be wary. Look at all the experiments in ME1 that we shut down. Cerberus is classified as a known terrorist organization with both the Alliance and the Council races.

I can understand why they were shocked and acted the way they did even though I would have preferred they had a little more faith in me (Shep).

Yeah, to my knowledge al-Qaeda doesn't torture children or inject Marines with poisons "for science". But they do murder plenty of people, just like Cerberus. So in that respect, the analogy holds. But we can find other examples of real world groups who routinely murder military personnel and conduct unethical and immoral experiments on living humans. Anybody got any ideas? 

Al-Qaeda has name recognition and at this point doesn't require any introduction. I've never believed that analogies had to match up point by point, the important things were as you said they murder lots of people, and also that merely being a member of the organisation can get you incarcerated for years, if not decades.

Freedom of association isn't going to protect anyone if they join an illegal organisation.

I agree. Personally, it seems like a lot of people's arguments distill down to "Cerberus isn't so bad", and that makes me sick. I don't know if people didn't play the first game, or if they genuinely don't have a problem with the murder, torture, sick experiments and other heinous acts Cerberus has committed in the past. If it's the latter, then I will never be on the same wavelength with them, ever. If it's the former, they need to educate themselves before clipping on that Cerberus nametag. All you have to do is associate yourself with them, and their sins are your sins. You don't get to dodge that. Just like you don't get to work freelance for the Mafia or Yakuza or drug-cartel-of-your-choice. There's no plausible deniability or mitigating circumstance. If you want to accept that burden to achieve what you believe is a greater good, well, do that. But accept the consequences.

[TheMarshal]

Siansonea II wrote...

So, Admiral Kahoku wasn't in the Alliance?
The Alliance Marines on Akuze and Edolus who were killed by Cerberus weren't Alliance?
The fact that they tortured Corporal Toombs instead of outright killing him is somehow okay?

Really?

I can't believe people are going to such great lengths to downplay Cerberus' past actions, and for the sole reason of justifying Shepard's decision to work for Cerberus and cast the VS as the bad guy on the Horizon. You people and your "shades of grey". 

The purpose of Al-Qaeda is to kill Americans.  Cerberus' purpose is the advancement of humanity, though they go about it in horrendous and hilariously inhumane ways.  I'm not apologizing for Cerberus' actions, despite whatever this hate-on you seem to have for people who disagree with you would lead you to believe.  Trying to paint Cerberus with the same brush as a religious group who's hell-bent on the annihilation of another people and the subjugation of their own is just disingenuous, which is why I proposed an alternative scenario which is more in line with how things actually play out.

[Goneaviking]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nothing about Shepad working with Cerberus or mecha chutlu robots comping to kill everyone is convincing either if you want to be that way.  Hell humanity being so uber special that they get a spectre in under half a century isn't believeable either. 

The VS didn't sensibly dismiss the rumors out of hand on Horizon. 

Shepard's involvement with Cerberus, and the existence of the Reapers are necessary parts of the stories that the games' developers wanted to tell, so I give them a free pass as long as they work with me to make them credible within the bounds of the story. The way humans react to each other generally is observable in day to day life, and when they start behaving like subservient minions it undermines the credibility of a story.

The VS dismissed the rumours until Shepard made his appearance. They were functioning with the belief that Shepard was dead, and when it turned out he wasn't the only explanation available in their memory was the TIMs leaked rumour.

So...no "How did they bring you back to life!" no curiosty about what attacked the ship in the first place? I'm supposed to believe this? 

And the rumors credibility is shattered the second Cerberus drives the Collector's away. Since you know the rumors involved Cerberus being the ones making the colonies disappear. The VS now has direct evidence to the contrary. 

I think I remember VS starting the conversation with something like a request for information, but then Shepard either treats the two year absence like no big deal, or shrugs through the "I was dead" part and mentions Cerberus. Which was the only pre-existing notion that Shepard wasn't dead.

In all the playthroughs I've had, I can't remember Shepard actually saying he was dead. Even in a game with Reapers the "back from the dead" option doesn't seem as likely as the "MIA for two years and reappears as an enemy" option.

Even with the obvious existence of the Collectors as a threat, it doesn't invalidate Cerberus as being a threat. That Cerberus would fight aliens makes perfect sense considering their humanity uber alles mentality. That they'd win also makes perfect sense given Shepard's presence.  Neither of those facts removes the absolutely toxic reputation that Cerberus has.

True. 

My issue is my Shepard never liked Tali yet in ME2 it's assumed they're BFFs. If the same happens with the VS...

I agree. I want the option of repairing the friendship, but don't want it forced on me. If it is forced on me, I do at least expect them to make story out of it instead of just ignoring the fight or shrugging it off as if it were no big deal.

[Goneaviking]

TheMarshal wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So, Admiral Kahoku wasn't in the Alliance?
The Alliance Marines on Akuze and Edolus who were killed by Cerberus weren't Alliance?
The fact that they tortured Corporal Toombs instead of outright killing him is somehow okay?

Really?

I can't believe people are going to such great lengths to downplay Cerberus' past actions, and for the sole reason of justifying Shepard's decision to work for Cerberus and cast the VS as the bad guy on the Horizon. You people and your "shades of grey". 

The purpose of Al-Qaeda is to kill Americans.  Cerberus' purpose is the advancement of humanity, though they go about it in horrendous and hilariously inhumane ways.  I'm not apologizing for Cerberus' actions, despite whatever this hate-on you seem to have for people who disagree with you would lead you to believe.  Trying to paint Cerberus with the same brush as a religious group who's hell-bent on the annihilation of another people and the subjugation of their own is just disingenuous, which is why I proposed an alternative scenario which is more in line with how things actually play out.

No the purpose of al-Qaeda is islamic nationalism. The advancement, and independence, of the arab people specifically but muslims generally. The murder of American civilians is an evil strategy, but it isn't the goal. It is derived from the belief that "the West" and the United States in particular funds and supports dictators in muslim nations, and that toppling those dictators is pointless if the West is able to continue to corrupt arab leaders, or otherwise bend them to their will.

Al-Qaeda is a hideous and evil group, but annihilation of another people isn't their objective, although subjugation of their own certainly is. The game does give reason to suggest that Cerberus wants to subjugate humanity to it's own control, my Shepard even accused TIM of wanting it.

You don't have to agree with me, but that doesn't make the analogy disingenous.

[Siansonea]

TheMarshal wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So, Admiral Kahoku wasn't in the Alliance?
The Alliance Marines on Akuze and Edolus who were killed by Cerberus weren't Alliance?
The fact that they tortured Corporal Toombs instead of outright killing him is somehow okay?

Really?

I can't believe people are going to such great lengths to downplay Cerberus' past actions, and for the sole reason of justifying Shepard's decision to work for Cerberus and cast the VS as the bad guy on the Horizon. You people and your "shades of grey". 

The purpose of Al-Qaeda is to kill Americans.  Cerberus' purpose is the advancement of humanity, though they go about it in horrendous and hilariously inhumane ways.  I'm not apologizing for Cerberus' actions, despite whatever this hate-on you seem to have for people who disagree with you would lead you to believe.  Trying to paint Cerberus with the same brush as a religious group who's hell-bent on the annihilation of another people and the subjugation of their own is just disingenuous, which is why I proposed an alternative scenario which is more in line with how things actually play out.

Okay, I'll just pick up another, equally awful brush to paint them with. Truth be told, they are more like the "Natzis" than al-Qaeda anyway, especially if you factor in the sick science experiments. They're not as willy-nilly with the genocide, but if alien races had to be sacrificed to advance humanity, TIM would be more than happy to make that happen. Cerberus is all about advancing one group ahead of all others, so they're much more like supremacist organizations like the "Natzis" and the Ku Klux Klan than a religious terrorist group. To me, that's not that fine of a distinction though. I'll be just as dead if I'm killed by a supremacist to advance a master race as I will if I'm killed by a holy warrior bent on destroying the infidel. And if my long-lost colleague tells me he's joined the Klan, I'm not going to be relieved and say "well, at least it's not al-Qaeda". 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 05 août 2011 - 10:10 .

[Ryzaki]

Goneaviking wrote...
Shepard's involvement with Cerberus, and the existence of the Reapers are necessary parts of the stories that the games' developers wanted to tell, so I give them a free pass as long as they work with me to make them credible within the bounds of the story. The way humans react to each other generally is observable in day to day life, and when they start behaving like subservient minions it undermines the credibility of a story.

Except nothing about the Reapers is really credible. Even less so that Hackett and Anderson just believe Shepard. And the VS giving Shep the benefit of the doubt doesn't make the subservient minions. Shepard being brought back from the dead (if you're gonna insist on the crediblility) should've madeyou put the game down. There's no way and it's never explained other than "oh there was a lot of money and smart people." ...Uh...okay? 

The VS dismissed the rumours until Shepard made his appearance. They were functioning with the belief that Shepard was dead, and when it turned out he wasn't the only explanation available in their memory was the TIMs leaked rumour.

Except said rumor was already proven inaccurate. They just decided to belief a blantat lie than try to get answers. That makes them an idiot in my view. 

I think I remember VS starting the conversation with something like a request for information, but then Shepard either treats the two year absence like no big deal, or shrugs through the "I was dead" part and mentions Cerberus. Which was the only pre-existing notion that Shepard wasn't dead.

They ask two questions that someone posted earlier. Then they proceed to sling accusations like nobodies business. 

In all the playthroughs I've had, I can't remember Shepard actually saying he was dead. Even in a game with Reapers the "back from the dead" option doesn't seem as likely as the "MIA for two years and reappears as an enemy" option.

I don't get it either. He says he was in a coma..(or dead not sure which) while Cerberus rebuilt him. Dude..you were DEAD. 

Even with the obvious existence of the Collectors as a threat, it doesn't invalidate Cerberus as being a threat. That Cerberus would fight aliens makes perfect sense considering their humanity uber alles mentality. That they'd win also makes perfect sense given Shepard's presence.  Neither of those facts removes the absolutely toxic reputation that Cerberus has.

Except of course this now calls into question just why Shepard is working for them and how much is he really betraying the alliance. Those facts don't remove Cerberus toxic reputation but it also invalidates those idiot rumors that the disapperences were Cerberus' fault. 

I agree. I want the option of repairing the friendship, but don't want it forced on me. If it is forced on me, I do at least expect them to make story out of it instead of just ignoring the fight or shrugging it off as if it were no big deal.

I don't want it forced on me period. And if there is please let their be an option where I can kill the VS off to avoid it. 

[TheMarshal]

Siansonea II wrote...

Okay, I'll just pick up another, equally awful brush to paint them with. Truth be told, they are more like the "Natzis" than al-Qaeda anyway, especially if you factor in the sick science experiments. They're not as willy-nilly with the genocide, but if alien races had to be sacrificed to advance humanity, TIM would be more than happy to make that happen. Cerberus is all about advancing one group ahead of all others, so they're much more like supremacist organizations like the "Natzis" and the Ku Klux Klan than a religious terrorist group. To me, that's not that fine of a distinction though. I'll be just as dead if I'm killed by a supremacist to advance a master race as I will if I'm killed by a holy warrior bent on destroying the infidel. And if my long-lost colleague tells me he's joined the Klan, I'm not going to be relieved and say "well, at least it's not al-Qaeda". 

*headdesk*

Really?  ****s?  Cerberus is like the ****s?  Only they're not totally like them, because they're not participating in the systematic genocide of millions of peoples, but they're still like the ****s, 'cause ****s are bad, and Cerberus is bad?

You guys are picking these names for the shock factor, for the images that they invoke in our minds, for the knee-jerk reactions that we as civilized humans have upon hearing these names spoken out loud.  It's like equating a criminal to a rapist or a child molestor.  We HATE rapists.  We HATE child molestors.  But not every bad guy is a rapist.  Not every bad guy is a child molestor.  And just because Cerberus is a terrorist organization does not make them !@%*ing **** Germany!

[Made Nightwing]

@TheMarshal-Actually...the analogy does kind of hold.

@Ryzaki-If you feel that killing people who disagree with you is the best way to solve a broken friendship then you have serious issues. Homicidal violence and rage isn't healthy, even towards fictional characters.

[AVPen]

Ryzaki wrote...
My issue is my Shepard never liked Tali yet in ME2 it's assumed they're BFFs. If the same happens with the VS...

Don't you mean Liara? 

[Ryzaki]

AVPen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
My issue is my Shepard never liked Tali yet in ME2 it's assumed they're BFFs. If the same happens with the VS...

Don't you mean Liara? 

Ugh. That...yeah that...ugh. *rubs temples* if I wanted to avoid her I had to give up on Thane and Samara. That's ridculous. 

Made Nightwing wrote...
@Ryzaki-If you feel that killing people who disagree with you is the best way to solve a broken friendship then you have serious issues. Homicidal violence and rage isn't healthy, even towards fictional characters.

Nope. It is the best way to avoid my Shepard acting OOC though. If my Shepard can have frosty relationship with them there's no need for death. If I'm railroaded into "OMG KAIDAN/ASHLEY YOU WERE SO RIGHT AND NOW WE'RE GONNA BE FRIENDS FOREVER!" I'm killing them. Or Shepard. Whichever one I can kill first.

Not to mention sorry to break it to you but Ashley and Kaidan are pixels. They're not people they never will be people. They're toys. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2011 - 10:47 .

[Saberchic]

Wow. I think this is getting blown way out of hand here...

As someone suggested before, I see Cerberus as more a part of a military branch gone rogue. Maybe we should just stick with in game perceptions instead of trying to link them to real world examples as I don't think any would fit really well.

In the game, Cerberus is seen as a terrorist organization (and not without cause). Why wouldn't the VS be wary? They thought Shepard was dead. When they tried to see if the "Shepard lives" rumors were true, Anderson shut them down. Now Shepard is alive *poof* like magic, right in front of them. I'm sure they were pretty blown away and in incredible turmoil inside.

I'm curious as to why Kaidan never took up my anti-reaper banner when my Shep died as he heard for himself what Sovereign had to say. I think the answer to that lies in ME3. I suspect that the colonist disappearances might have taken precedance over that, but who knows.

[TheMarshal]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@TheMarshal-Actually...the analogy does kind of hold.

No, it doesn't.  "****" isn't some nebulous bad-guy archetype like "evil dictator" or "mad scientist" or "warlord".  It's a specific set of characteristics and actual events which occurred.  You can't just start from "****" and pare off bits and pieces of what happened until you get something closer to the analogy you were hoping for.  Once you remove "systematic genocide" they cease to be ****s.  If you're looking for a group which "performed horrific experiments on their own people" then you may as well toss America in with that lot.  But nobody's doing that, because they're looking for the stigma that the word **** carries and hoping that makes their argument stronger.

[Made Nightwing]

Ryzaki wrote...

[Nope. It is the best way to avoid my Shepard acting OOC though. If my Shepard can have frosty relationship with them there's no need for death. If I'm railroaded into "OMG KAIDAN/ASHLEY YOU WERE SO RIGHT AND NOW WE'RE GONNA BE FRIENDS FOREVER!" I'm killing them. Or Shepard. Whichever one I can kill first.

Not to mention sorry to break it to you but Ashley and Kaidan are pixels. They're not people they never will be people. They're toys. 

I have never taken any other view with them. But it is why I find your rage at a bunch of pixels slightly ridiculous, amusing.

Still, each to their own. Hell, when we get right down to it, my defence of a bunch of pixels is also idiotic. Slow weekend I guess.

Modifié par Made Nightwing, 05 août 2011 - 10:55 .

[Ryzaki]

True. Child torture...human mutilation...horrific experiments.

...It's be harder to find a group that *doesn't* do those things. 

Made Nightwing wrote...
I have never taken any other view with them. But it is why I find your rage at a bunch of pixels slightly ridiculous.

It's fun. I don't play games to be annoyed. So when something is annoying to me I tend to rage at it and want it gone. No big deal. I'd be just as happy with being able to tell them to kick rocks and not having to deal with them for the rest of the game. I don't play games to be annoyed. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2011 - 10:54 .