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Restoring Trust with the VS


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#826
Saberchic

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Ryzaki wrote...

Nope. It is the best way to avoid my Shepard acting OOC though. If my Shepard can have frosty relationship with them there's no need for death. If I'm railroaded into "OMG KAIDAN/ASHLEY YOU WERE SO RIGHT AND NOW WE'RE GONNA BE FRIENDS FOREVER!" I'm killing them. Or Shepard. Whichever one I can kill first.


I hope there is an option to just keep things professional. ^_^

My renegade Shep wasn't that close to Kaidan. If Kaidan wants to join his team, fine. But my RenShep will only want to keep him on as long as there's no drama about it. Damien is on a mission, dammit! He doesn't have time for soap opera dramas. According to him, you're either with him or in his way... and nobody wants to be in his way. ;)

#827
TheMarshal

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Saberchic wrote...

Wow. I think this is getting blown way out of hand here... :?

As someone suggested before, I see Cerberus as more a part of a military branch gone rogue. Maybe we should just stick with in game perceptions instead of trying to link them to real world examples as I don't think any would fit really well.

In the game, Cerberus is seen as a terrorist organization (and not without cause). Why wouldn't the VS be wary? They thought Shepard was dead. When they tried to see if the "Shepard lives" rumors were true, Anderson shut them down. Now Shepard is alive *poof* like magic, right in front of them. I'm sure they were pretty blown away and in incredible turmoil inside.

I'm curious as to why Kaidan never took up my anti-reaper banner when my Shep died as he heard for himself what Sovereign had to say. I think the answer to that lies in ME3. I suspect that the colonist disappearances might have taken precedance over that, but who knows.


That's what they are!  Cerberus started as part of the Alliance black-ops and took the Renegade option on re-enlistment day.  The Codex describes them as a human-survivalist paramilitary organization (though in ME2 we really only see the science-y part of the group).  There isn't a real world example of this type of evil (I hope), so it had to be made up.  I have no doubt that bits and pieces of inspiration for Cerberus were drawn from various actual bad guy groups.

#828
Made Nightwing

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Ryzaki wrote...


True. Child torture...human mutilation...horrific experiments.

...It's be harder to find a group that *doesn't* do those things. 


Made Nightwing wrote...
I have never taken any other view with them. But it is why I find your rage at a bunch of pixels slightly ridiculous.


It's fun. I don't play games to be annoyed. So when something is annoying to me I tend to rage at it and want it gone. No big deal. I'd be just as happy with being able to tell them to kick rocks and not having to deal with them for the rest of the game. I don't play games to be annoyed. 


Why not take the view of Sgt. Major Johnson: Listen up Alenko/Williams, I don't like you, and you don't like me, but unless we work together, we're all gonna die.

#829
Ryzaki

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Saberchic wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Nope. It is the best way to avoid my Shepard acting OOC though. If my Shepard can have frosty relationship with them there's no need for death. If I'm railroaded into "OMG KAIDAN/ASHLEY YOU WERE SO RIGHT AND NOW WE'RE GONNA BE FRIENDS FOREVER!" I'm killing them. Or Shepard. Whichever one I can kill first.


I hope there is an option to just keep things professional. ^_^

My renegade Shep wasn't that close to Kaidan. If Kaidan wants to join his team, fine. But my RenShep will only want to keep him on as long as there's no drama about it. Damien is on a mission, dammit! He doesn't have time for soap opera dramas. According to him, you're either with him or in his way... and nobody wants to be in his way. ;)


I hope so too. Guardian would love that. :) 

Really truth be told I'm fine with anything other than forced BFFness. A cordinal relationship is just fine for my Sheps. (I would prefer a FU option as well for some of my renegades though). 


Made Nightwing wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


True. Child torture...human mutilation...horrific experiments.

...It's be harder to find a group that *doesn't* do those things. 


Made Nightwing wrote...
I have never taken any other view with them. But it is why I find your rage at a bunch of pixels slightly ridiculous.


It's fun. I don't play games to be annoyed. So when something is annoying to me I tend to rage at it and want it gone. No big deal. I'd be just as happy with being able to tell them to kick rocks and not having to deal with them for the rest of the game. I don't play games to be annoyed. 


Why not take the view of Sgt. Major Johnson: Listen up Alenko/Williams, I don't like you, and you don't like me, but unless we work together, we're all gonna die.


Because BW seems not to understand that I.E Liara, Tali and Garrus. 

You could be as cruel as possible in ME1 to them but in ME2...

Shepard: HI BFF!

Ugh. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2011 - 10:57 .


#830
ladyvader

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TheMarshal wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Wow. I think this is getting blown way out of hand here... :?

As someone suggested before, I see Cerberus as more a part of a military branch gone rogue. Maybe we should just stick with in game perceptions instead of trying to link them to real world examples as I don't think any would fit really well.

In the game, Cerberus is seen as a terrorist organization (and not without cause). Why wouldn't the VS be wary? They thought Shepard was dead. When they tried to see if the "Shepard lives" rumors were true, Anderson shut them down. Now Shepard is alive *poof* like magic, right in front of them. I'm sure they were pretty blown away and in incredible turmoil inside.

I'm curious as to why Kaidan never took up my anti-reaper banner when my Shep died as he heard for himself what Sovereign had to say. I think the answer to that lies in ME3. I suspect that the colonist disappearances might have taken precedance over that, but who knows.


That's what they are!  Cerberus started as part of the Alliance black-ops and took the Renegade option on re-enlistment day.  The Codex describes them as a human-survivalist paramilitary organization (though in ME2 we really only see the science-y part of the group).  There isn't a real world example of this type of evil (I hope), so it had to be made up.  I have no doubt that bits and pieces of inspiration for Cerberus were drawn from various actual bad guy groups.

I would think the inspiration for the sick experiements are from WWII Germany.  There is a lot of real life evil right there.

#831
paul165

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>>But we can find other examples of real world groups who routinely murder military personnel and conduct unethical and immoral experiments on living humans. Anybody got any ideas? <<

Godwin's Law, KGB, Stasi off the top of my head without going into conspiracy theories.

#832
Saberchic

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TheMarshal wrote...
That's what they are!  Cerberus started as part of the Alliance black-ops and took the Renegade option on re-enlistment day.  The Codex describes them as a human-survivalist paramilitary organization (though in ME2 we really only see the science-y part of the group).  There isn't a real world example of this type of evil (I hope), so it had to be made up.  I have no doubt that bits and pieces of inspiration for Cerberus were drawn from various actual bad guy groups.


Right. That's why I don't think the other analogies work real well.

I suppose one could argue that the reaction one gets when someone says "al-Qaeda" can be likened to a typical reaction that one might find in the Mass Effect universe when someone mentions "Cerberus."

#833
Saberchic

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Ryzaki wrote...
Really truth be told I'm fine with anything other than forced BFFness. A cordinal relationship is just fine for my Sheps. (I would prefer a FU option as well for some of my renegades though). 

*snip other stuff*
Because BW seems not to understand that I.E Liara, Tali and Garrus. 

You could be as cruel as possible in ME1 to them but in ME2...

Shepard: HI BFF!

Ugh.

Very very true.

I hated it when I saw Liara and all of my Sheps appeared to be just over the moon happy to see her. Some of them never even let her off the ship, turned her down, and barely talked to her.

Ok, didn't mean to get off topic.

So it looks like we want BW to make sure we have planty of options for the VS scenarion.
1) FU (to VS) + airlock treatment :P
2) FU  (to VS) + just do your damn job and don't even try to think of taking the Normandy from me.
3) FU (from VS) to Shep + Shep apology
4) an apology to and from Shep + VS

Is there any I'm missing? :D

#834
paul165

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>>I suppose one could argue that the reaction one gets when someone says "al-Qaeda" can be likened to a typical reaction that one might find in the Mass Effect universe when someone mentions "Cerberus.<<

Only if a lot of that countries' military are secretly sympathetic towards them....

Cerberus is a mess not least because they changed emphasis between rogue black ops group that no-one has heard of in ME1 and an organisation that had seriously infiltrated the Alliance - ,but apparently wasn't part of it, and every 2 credit merc gang in the Terminus knows well enough to program in their automatic YMIR control system in ME2.

Not to mention the logos on the uniforms, please not the logos. **rolls eyes**

Cerberus is evil - by current First World standards they are so far over the moral event horizon they can't see daylight. The problem with using current First World standards is that so are half the other organisations - the Council = military dictatorship with secret police Spectres = secret police license to kill, no oversight,no morals, Salarians and Turians = genocide. And you work with all of those organisations during the course of the first game with no ethical qualms whatsoever so Shepard isn't all that squeaky clean even before the events of ME2.

Not to mention the Ruthless! background and please note slaughtering prisoners didn't get Shepard cashiered or sent to prison, like it would in a modern military, it got them promoted!
In the Alliance that the VS so proudly serves...

The ME Galaxy is pretty Grimdark and Cerberus by the standards of 2185 are merely a slightly deeper shade of grey in a universe where the nearest organisation to white appears to be the 'true geth'.

NB This does not mean that it was perfectly OK for a serving Alliance officer to switch sides or that the VS was unjustified to be very cautious after they had done so.

#835
paul165

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>>Is there any I'm missing?<<

Mutual FU and frosty silence?

My personal favourite would be that if the VS and Shepard obviously can't work together then the crew (and ground team) begin to pick a side creating a bigger mess which would have to be solved.

In this scenario Garrus and Liara would pick Shepard given the events of ME2 whilst Vega being an Alliance marine would pick the VS. Add in ex Cerberus Joker and Dr. Chakwas to an Alliance crew, competition between Executive Lawson and Spectre VS for XO status stir and stand well back.

Modifié par paul165, 05 août 2011 - 11:32 .


#836
Ryzaki

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Saberchic wrote...

Very very true.

I hated it when I saw Liara and all of my Sheps appeared to be just over the moon happy to see her. Some of them never even let her off the ship, turned her down, and barely talked to her.

Ok, didn't mean to get off topic.

So it looks like we want BW to make sure we have planty of options for the VS scenarion.
1) FU (to VS) + airlock treatment :P
2) FU  (to VS) + just do your damn job and don't even try to think of taking the Normandy from me.
3) FU (from VS) to Shep + Shep apology
4) an apology to and from Shep + VS

Is there any I'm missing? :D



That's my only real issue. I want choice in how Shepard interacts with the VS. 

I'd guess the slow mo run towards each other embrace as they tell each other how much the missed and wub each other. Not that I'd ever pickthat. :sick:

#837
Ryzaki

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paul165 wrote...

>>Is there any I'm missing?<<

Mutual FU and frosty silence?

My personal favourite would be that if the VS and Shepard obviously can't work together then the crew (and ground team) begin to pick a side creating a bigger mess which would have to be solved.

In this scenario Garrus and Liara would pick Shepard given the events of ME2 whilst Vega being an Alliance marine would pick the VS. Add in ex Cerberus Joker and Dr. Chakwas to an Alliance crew, competition between Executive Lawson and Spectre VS for XO status stir and stand well back.


The VS would lose that fight badly. I can picture Vega being on their side (though not for long considering BW tradition) but Chakwas and Joker? Defintenly on Shep's side. As far as the VS was concerned they were dirty traitors too. The VS might get all the nameless mooks though. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2011 - 11:42 .


#838
Saberchic

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paul165 wrote...

>>Is there any I'm missing?<<

Mutual FU and frosty silence?

My personal favourite would be that if the VS and Shepard obviously can't work together then the crew (and ground team) begin to pick a side creating a bigger mess which would have to be solved.

In this scenario Garrus and Liara would pick Shepard given the events of ME2 whilst Vega being an Alliance marine would pick the VS. Add in ex Cerberus Joker and Dr. Chakwas to an Alliance crew, competition between Executive Lawson and Spectre VS for XO status stir and stand well back.


Ok, adding your option.
1) FU (to VS) + airlock treatment [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]
2) FU  (to VS) + just do your damn job and don't even try to think of taking the Normandy from me.
3) FU (from VS) to Shep + Shep apology
4) an apology to and from Shep + VS
5) VS + Shep both FU + silent treatment

I"ve got to agree with Ryzaki. Chakwas, Joker, and any other returning crew (like Ken and Gabby) would be behind Shep. If it came to a fight, the VS may only have Vega + whatever other female newbie they throw at us.

I'd say we have them outnumbered. Plus, I doubt EDI would side against me as well. It would be cool to be able to pick your XO this time. There seem to be plenty of options. Of course, that all depends on what BW is going to have the squaddies from ME2 doing.

D'oh! I keep going off-topic! :pinched: Sorry!

edited: spelling fail :(

Modifié par Saberchic, 06 août 2011 - 12:05 .


#839
TheMarshal

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Ryzaki wrote...

That's my only real issue. I want choice in how Shepard interacts with the VS. 

I'd guess the slow mo run towards each other embrace as they tell each other how much the missed and wub each other. Not that I'd ever pickthat. :sick:


Yeah, given Bioware's track record, we might not have that option.  I've only lucked out so far in that I actually liked and treated Tali, Garrus, Liara, and Wrex well.  Being forced to work with Cerberus in ME2 could have been handled way better, though, especially for a Sole Survivor Shep like mine.

#840
Iakus

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Siansonea II wrote...

iakus wrote...

Invasion of sentient starships bent on ending organic life in the galaxy isn't "the right reason"? :blink:


Prove it.

Without resorting to "dream interpretation" or circumstantial evidence. Regardless, there is no clear connection between the Collectors and the Reapers UNTIL Horizon. So, what, Shepard was just taking it on faith up until that point?


Umm, the VS believed in Shepard's visions in ME1.  Kinda the basis of their whole trip to Ilos.  The VS is one of the 5-7 people (depending on who's alive) to know the whole story and aren't Cerberus.  The others being Anderson, Liara, Garrus, Tali, Shiala, and Wrex.  Proof should no longer be an issue, unless you're saying they're buying into the whole "Ah, yes, 'Reapers'" mentality of the Council :crying:

Shepard being so easy to trust TIM is an issue.  I'm not happy with that at all.  But that does not alter the fact that Shepard  (a paragon Shepard, anyway) has no intention of betraying the Alliance, and is in fact focusing on a threat that could very easily destroy the ALliance, as well as everyone else.

And regardless, if you want to join Cerberus because you think you have to, fine. You do that. But don't expect the rest of the galaxy to just shrug and say "I'm sure Shepard knows what she's doing". Nope. You still gotta pay the piper.


And that's fine.  We're not talking about the Alliance as a whole.  We are talking about one Alliance soldier.  Only one.  The one who should know Shepard better than to think he'd go down that slippery slope without one frakking good reason.


And Shepard seems to have forgotten that she is expected to be held accountable for her decisions, that she doesn't automatically get a free pass to do whatever she wants. If she wants to work with terrorists, she'd better be prepared for the inevitable backlash. And by backlash, I mean mild rebuke from the VS. Thin-skinned much, Shepard? <_<


Questioning a soldier's loyalty and accusing them of betrayal is not a "mild rebuke".  Trust me.

And a paragon Shepard is willing to face the consequences for his decisions.  Killing 300k batarians cannot go without comment, even if Shep had no choice.  He said he'll face the music when the time comes.

On a somewhat related not, what's the standard penalty for saving a colony?  :innocent:

SImilarly, If I say "An Alliance hero allies with a terrorist organization" What kind of event am I describing?


Is that a trick question? Because it looks pretty clear to me that the Alliance hero just turned in her Alliance hero card, and traded it for a terrorist card. I guess it was her choice to do so, but I'm not going to just look the other way and shrug my shoulders. 


Absolutely serious question.

What you described is what it looks like to the nameless marine who never knew Shepard.  or the Shepard without an import, perhaps.  But what does it look like to the VS familiar with a paragon Shepard's past?  What's the context?  Said hero has never shown any sympathy for Cerberus before.  Quite the opposite in fact.  Said Shepard has also advocated working with the Council and alien races, even saved the Destiny Ascension at great cost to humanity's fleet.

So again, what kind of event am I describing?  

Or as the great RPG Planescape: Torment goes: "What can change the nature of a man?"

Modifié par iakus, 06 août 2011 - 03:02 .


#841
Ryzaki

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TheMarshal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

That's my only real issue. I want choice in how Shepard interacts with the VS. 

I'd guess the slow mo run towards each other embrace as they tell each other how much the missed and wub each other. Not that I'd ever pickthat. :sick:


Yeah, given Bioware's track record, we might not have that option.  I've only lucked out so far in that I actually liked and treated Tali, Garrus, Liara, and Wrex well.  Being forced to work with Cerberus in ME2 could have been handled way better, though, especially for a Sole Survivor Shep like mine.


Oh god. I pretty much went
Image IPB

when Miranda brought up Akuze and my SS Shepard didn't say anything about Cerberus being involved. :mellow: That was horrible. I do not want more of that. 

Though I didn't mind the forced friendship with Wrex. Wrex is awesomeness and win. :wub: Not to mention talking him down is a friendish thing to do. If my Shep couldn't stand Wrex he would've shot him. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 août 2011 - 03:50 .


#842
Goneaviking

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TheMarshal wrote...

[snip]

If you're looking for a group which "performed horrific experiments on their own people" then you may as well toss America in with that lot.  But nobody's doing that, because they're looking for the stigma that the word **** carries and hoping that makes their argument stronger.


Actually I'm not doing that because experience shows that if Americans catch a whiff of criticism then it just becomes an unmanageable pain in the arse to deal with the juvenile retaliatory insults to my country. So I avoid it where possible.

My original point was, membership in terrorist groups is grounds for arrest and incarceration. If groups don't have a total point for point match then the analogy still holds, because it establishes the point being made.

The Reich wouldn't illustrate that point so that analogy is weak unless it's being made to demonstrate a separate argument.

#843
StellarMagic

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Hmm... knowing Ashley I wonder if she'd get seriously pissed if we take too long assembling the force to save earth.

Ashley: "Stop solving all these problems between aliens. We've got a fleet lets go take the fight to earth... NOW!"

Shepard: "And watch it get destroyed? We need everyone aboard for this to work..."

I think Alenko would be better at seeing the large picture at least.

#844
ubermensch007

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What Lantar Sidonis did was "Betrayal"..

.Image IPB

What Cypher (in The Matrix) did was 'Betrayal'..

.Image IPB

What Commander Shepard did... Is nothing more than work with a former enemy; to combat a common foe.

Image IPB

Modifié par ubermensch007, 06 août 2011 - 09:24 .


#845
paul165

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@ StellarMagic I could certainly imagine that being a problem. I could also see failure to rescue an Alliance fleet from the Reapers - instead choosing other tasks as causing tension.

#846
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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ubermensch007 wrote...

What Lantar Sidonis did was "Betrayal"..

.Image IPB

What Cypher (in The Matrix) did was 'Betrayal'..

.Image IPB

What Commander Shepard did... Is nothing more than work with a former enemy; to combat a common foe.

Image IPB

I believe all this "Shepard betrayed the Alliance" talk needs to cease and desist now.:D

Modifié par jreezy, 06 août 2011 - 10:34 .


#847
Patchwork

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While on the topic of Akuze and Cerberus I have a quick question. At the time of the experiments on Toombs wasn't Cerberus still part of the Alliance?

Is there anything to prove the Alliance had nothing to do with what happened on Akuze?

#848
Made Nightwing

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jreezy wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

What Lantar Sidonis did was "Betrayal"..

.Image IPB

What Cypher (in The Matrix) did was 'Betrayal'..

.Image IPB

What Commander Shepard did... Is nothing more than work with a former enemy; to combat a common foe.

Image IPB

I believe all this "Shepard betrayed the Alliance" talk needs to cease and desist now.:D


I dunno about that. It's an entirely logical viewpoint, especially when you actually focus on what the advocators of that theory are saying. You can't tell people to stop thinking bro.

#849
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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Made Nightwing wrote...

jreezy wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

What Lantar Sidonis did was "Betrayal"..

.Image IPB

What Cypher (in The Matrix) did was 'Betrayal'..

.Image IPB

What Commander Shepard did... Is nothing more than work with a former enemy; to combat a common foe.

Image IPB

I believe all this "Shepard betrayed the Alliance" talk needs to cease and desist now.:D


I dunno about that. It's an entirely logical viewpoint, especially when you actually focus on what the advocators of that theory are saying. You can't tell people to stop thinking bro.

I have no problem with people opposing this viewpoint as long as the arguments against are logical. Most of the arguments aginst Shepard have just been full of emotion as far as I can tell.

#850
Goneaviking

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jreezy wrote...

I have no problem with people opposing this viewpoint as long as the arguments against are logical. Most of the arguments aginst Shepard have just been full of emotion as far as I can tell.


Has anyone actually claimed that Shepard betrayed the Alliance? The only arguments I've seen have been that it was reasonable for the VS to make that assumption in two emotionally charged minutes that they interacted with Shepard on Horizon?