1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Goneaviking]

jreezy wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I have no problem with people opposing this viewpoint as long as the arguments against are logical. Most of the arguments aginst Shepard have just been full of emotion as far as I can tell.

Has anyone actually claimed that Shepard betrayed the Alliance? The only arguments I've seen have been that it was reasonable for the VS to make that assumption in two emotionally charged minutes that they interacted with Shepard on Horizon?

Yes. Siansonea II has claimed that Shepard working with Cerberus is a betrayal to the Alliance, very stongly in fact.

Well then I think she's mistaken about it being an actual betrayal, though it's understandable that an NPC taken by surprise could see it that way.

[paul165]

Although we shall doubtless find out the official Alliance view during the trial - can't wait.

[lovgreno]

Dumping Failberus will probably go a long way in restoring faith and friendship.

[Siansonea]

jreezy wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I have no problem with people opposing this viewpoint as long as the arguments against are logical. Most of the arguments aginst Shepard have just been full of emotion as far as I can tell.

Has anyone actually claimed that Shepard betrayed the Alliance? The only arguments I've seen have been that it was reasonable for the VS to make that assumption in two emotionally charged minutes that they interacted with Shepard on Horizon?

Yes. Siansonea II has claimed that Shepard working with Cerberus is a betrayal to the Alliance, very stongly in fact.

What are you people smoking?

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

[eternalnightmare13]

With my canon Shep I saved Ash, not because she was his LI nor his best bud. Actually, they butted heads numerous times ever since Eden Prime. The reason Kaidan died is because he secured the bomb and Shep trusted him to do his duty, Kaidan had never been insubordinate so Shep had no doubt that the bomb would go off. By going to the AA tower it proved to be a diverision to lure Saren away from the bomb sight.

When running into Ash on Horizon, it didn't surprise Shep at her attitude, and further distanced him from her both on a professional level and personal one.

It's going to take a lot more then what the OP posted here to restore faith in her. Even at the trial, it'll take more then pretty words. Her *ACTIONS* will speak louder then any words she speaks. She's always run her mouth too much, and shown a lack of protocol/discpline to her commanding officer in the past. If she's a spectre in 3 then I can imagine it only being worse. Hopefully, she'll mature a bit more in 3.
Shep will never like her, but if she steps up in battle then he'll respect her.

[eternalnightmare13]

Siansonea II wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I have no problem with people opposing this viewpoint as long as the arguments against are logical. Most of the arguments aginst Shepard have just been full of emotion as far as I can tell.

Has anyone actually claimed that Shepard betrayed the Alliance? The only arguments I've seen have been that it was reasonable for the VS to make that assumption in two emotionally charged minutes that they interacted with Shepard on Horizon?

Yes. Siansonea II has claimed that Shepard working with Cerberus is a betrayal to the Alliance, very stongly in fact.

What are you people smoking?

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

You have valid points, but when you start calling people names you lose a lot of respect.  Let's leave the juvenielle behavior out of this, m'kay?

On the surface being associated with Cerberus it can appear to be betrayal to those ideals. He's no where near the leve of Bennedict Arnold.  Name one thing that Shepard did in ME2 that betrayed the Alliance. By this I mean give me specific actions Shep did that betray the Alliance in ME2.  If you want to point fingers at him leaving the Lazarus base early in the game, again that's a plot device.   Being resurrected by Cerebus doesn't count, that's a plot device.  

What specifically does he do at any time in ME2 that says 'traitor'?

Shepard's guilty by association but he has no real options since the Council/Alliance stopped looking for him, and railroad him when he does come back.

He may have betrayed the Alliance by being associated with Cerberus who violated the Alliance.

The only thing I can recall is the issue of the base, giving TIM the potential power from the Collector base could be seen as betrayal since Cerberus is a sworn enemy of the Council/Alliance.  

Also when you do the mission where you locate the missing Cerberus operative you have the option of what to do with the intel.  Giving it to the Alliance would clearly indicate Shep wasn't a traitor.
That happens way after Horizon and the VI is having an emotional reaction to ideology, not logical factual actions.

Modifié par eternalnightmare13, 06 août 2011 - 05:17 .

[Ryzaki]

...One would think being resurrected didn't count because it didn't hurt the alliance or give away any of their intel in anyway.

Chakwas and Joker betrayed the alliance more than Shepard did.

[eternalnightmare13]

Ryzaki wrote...


Chakwas and Joker betrayed the alliance more than Shepard did.

Exactly.  The same can be said about Gabby and Ken.  They willing chose to leave the Alliance.

[trobbins777]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I have no problem with people opposing this viewpoint as long as the arguments against are logical. Most of the arguments aginst Shepard have just been full of emotion as far as I can tell.

Has anyone actually claimed that Shepard betrayed the Alliance? The only arguments I've seen have been that it was reasonable for the VS to make that assumption in two emotionally charged minutes that they interacted with Shepard on Horizon?

Yes. Siansonea II has claimed that Shepard working with Cerberus is a betrayal to the Alliance, very stongly in fact.

What are you people smoking?

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

You have valid points, but when you start calling people names you lose a lot of respect.  Let's leave the juvenielle behavior out of this, m'kay?

On the surface being associated with Cerberus it can appear to be betrayal to those ideals. He's no where near the leve of Bennedict Arnold.  Name one thing that Shepard did in ME2 that betrayed the Alliance.  Being resurrected by Cerebus doesn't count, that's a plot device.  

Aiding an enemy combatant is in it's very nature treason. Now your Shepard may have also hindered Cerberus' progress however here is the thing. No one, not even Anderson, can or should believe you. Especially since you're supposed to be dead. 

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...
What are you people smoking?

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

1) Nothing.  I don't smoke
2) I consider myself reasonably intelligent
3) pardon me while I go put on my mask made of human flesh:P


As to the FACTS:

You realize that Shepard saw everything you listed?  He or she trashed several Cerberus bases in retaliation for Kahoku.  Shepard saw the threshe maw traps, and yes, may have been the vcitim of one two and knew Corporal Toombs.  Shep shut down (violently) a number of these projects.

And on Horizon, Shepard is working alongside Cerberus.  How do these FACTS sync up?  Why would Shepard, an Alliance marine, a  hero who did all these things end up allying with a group like that?  Sure sounds OOC, doens't it, maybe someone should ASK Shepard about it!

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

...One would think being resurrected didn't count because it didn't hurt the alliance or give away any of their intel in anyway.

Chakwas and Joker betrayed the alliance more than Shepard did.

Maybe Shep should have turned the gun on himself as soon as he learned he was a Cerberus project 

[-Skorpious-]

Lets say you are an American soldier. Now imagine if a fellow American soldier went MIA, came back two years later, and claimed he was working with Al-Qaeda to help overthrow a dictator with access to nuclear warheads -

What the hell would you think/do? Would you join him or brand him a traitor?

[Iakus]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Lets say you are an American soldier. Now imagine if a fellow American soldier went MIA, came back two years later, and claimed he was working with Al-Qaeda to help overthrow a dictator with access to nuclear warheads -

What the hell would you think/do? Would you join him or brand him a traitor?

If this was a soldier I knew personally and who had a history of fighting such terrorist organizatons, I'd ask how he knew all this.  What his evidence was, how trustworthy was it, and why he couldn't go to the authorities with it.  

[RGC_Ines]

Siansonea II wrote...

[What are you people smoking?

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

Let's look at the FACT:
-Alliance and Council tried to " silence" old Normandy crew about Reapers
-Alliance and Council spread lies about  Sovereign being Geths and Saren's ship
-Alliance is trying to silence anyone from military who have different point of view about Reapers and belive in Shepard informations about Reapers ( see Keneth or whatever is those engineer name from ME2)
-Alliance and Council destroyed all Shepard's works from ME1
So who here betrayed whom?

[redbaron76]

Alliance is a nation, opinion of one individual is one of many. Alliance did not betray Shepard, it protected it's intrests by classifiing the reaper data and denying shepards visions as a way to protect security of reaper files.

[AVPen]

redbaron76 wrote...

Alliance is a nation, opinion of one individual is one of many. Alliance did not betray Shepard, it protected it's intrests by classifiing the reaper data and denying shepards visions as a way to protect security of reaper files.

Actually, the Alliance is more or less a global alliance (pun not intended, btw) of the most powerful nations on Earth and could be considered the future/science fiction equivilent of the United Nations, except it addtional represents humanity's interests on a galactic scale: http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Alliance

Modifié par AVPen, 07 août 2011 - 01:13 .

[eternalnightmare13]

trobbins777 wrote...

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I have no problem with people opposing this viewpoint as long as the arguments against are logical. Most of the arguments aginst Shepard have just been full of emotion as far as I can tell.

Has anyone actually claimed that Shepard betrayed the Alliance? The only arguments I've seen have been that it was reasonable for the VS to make that assumption in two emotionally charged minutes that they interacted with Shepard on Horizon?

Yes. Siansonea II has claimed that Shepard working with Cerberus is a betrayal to the Alliance, very stongly in fact.

What are you people smoking?

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

You have valid points, but when you start calling people names you lose a lot of respect.  Let's leave the juvenielle behavior out of this, m'kay?

On the surface being associated with Cerberus it can appear to be betrayal to those ideals. He's no where near the leve of Bennedict Arnold.  Name one thing that Shepard did in ME2 that betrayed the Alliance.  Being resurrected by Cerebus doesn't count, that's a plot device.  

Aiding an enemy combatant is in it's very nature treason. Now your Shepard may have also hindered Cerberus' progress however here is the thing. No one, not even Anderson, can or should believe you. Especially since you're supposed to be dead. 

Pretty sure you get an email from Anderson if you give the Cerebus data to the Alliance during the side mission where you go looking for the missing Cerberus operative in ME2.

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
What are you people smoking?

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

1) Nothing.  I don't smoke
2) I consider myself reasonably intelligent
3) pardon me while I go put on my mask made of human flesh:P


As to the FACTS:

You realize that Shepard saw everything you listed?  He or she trashed several Cerberus bases in retaliation for Kahoku.  Shepard saw the threshe maw traps, and yes, may have been the vcitim of one two and knew Corporal Toombs.  Shep shut down (violently) a number of these projects.

And on Horizon, Shepard is working alongside Cerberus.  How do these FACTS sync up?  Why would Shepard, an Alliance marine, a  hero who did all these things end up allying with a group like that?  Sure sounds OOC, doens't it, maybe someone should ASK Shepard about it!

Or maybe Shepard, realizing how REALLY REALLY BAD it looks, should say something more compelling than "I was out for two years, Cerberus rebuilt me". Shepard is a big girl, she doesn't have to passively wait to be asked before she can offer an explanation. It should be understood that she has a LOT of explaining to do. She's not some wallflower. Did she think the VS wasn't going to want to know how she could ever stoop to working with Cerberus?

And I'm still seeing variations on the "Cerberus isn't so bad" theme. The lengths people will go to in order to rationalize their hissy fit over being called out by an NPC. Cerberus is straight-up EVIL folks. No amount of lawyering is going to erase that. Shepard signed on with criminals. She BETRAYED EVERYTHING SHE AND THE VS STOOD FOR. Maybe she did it "for the right reasons", or maybe she's just indoctrination or control-chipped, who knows. Or maybe she's an uncaring psycho. Sometimes the simplest answer is best. But her loyalty to the Alliance is out the window, that's for sure, and I don't see why anyone would ever trust her again. I wouldn't.

[Siansonea]

jreezy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I have no problem with people opposing this viewpoint as long as the arguments against are logical. Most of the arguments aginst Shepard have just been full of emotion as far as I can tell.

Has anyone actually claimed that Shepard betrayed the Alliance? The only arguments I've seen have been that it was reasonable for the VS to make that assumption in two emotionally charged minutes that they interacted with Shepard on Horizon?

Yes. Siansonea II has claimed that Shepard working with Cerberus is a betrayal to the Alliance, very stongly in fact.

What are you people smoking?

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

Well to answer your post. 1. I'm not smoking anything. 2. I wouldn't consider myself stupid or sociopathic just because I believe Shepard temporarily allying himself with Cerberus isn't a betrayal. My Shepard hasn't helped them in any way. I've used their resources to combat a dangerous foe and nothing else.

All I can say is...I hope you have one HELL of a lawyer.

[Siansonea]

RGC_Ines wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

[What are you people smoking?

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

Let's look at the FACT:
-Alliance and Council tried to " silence" old Normandy crew about Reapers

Not by murdering or torturing them. And how does Shepard know that before she decides to work for Cerberus? She doesn't talk to anyone outside of Cerberus, except for Tali, Veetor and Prazza, before she agrees to serve the Illusive Man.

-Alliance and Council spread lies about  Sovereign being Geths and Saren's ship

Did they? Are you sure the Council believes Sovereign was really a Reaper? What if they really believe it was just a really big geth ship? The only "Reaper" proof is in Shepard's brain, they have no reason to really buy into that story. And it's still not on par with murder and torture.

-Alliance is trying to silence anyone from military who have different point of view about Reapers and belive in Shepard informations about Reapers ( see Keneth or whatever is those engineer name from ME2)

Which Shepard doesn't hear until AFTER she's the Illusive Man's b¡tch. And the Alliance letting go of some loudmouth insubordinate personnel is still not equivalent to torture and murder.

-Alliance and Council destroyed all Shepard's works from ME1
So who here betrayed whom?

Shepard betrayed the Alliance, that's "whom". The Alliance doesn't owe Shepard a damn thing, certainly not blind support of her mystical visions of galactic destruction that no one else can corroborate. Shepard works for THEM. She was an EMPLOYEE. And when she was a Spectre, she was an EMPLOYEE of the Council. Perhaps some of you don't really understand how the employer-employee relationship works. But when your employee goes to work for a rival organization, and spends two years "dead", it's a betrayal. And when it's an organization that has MURDERED and TORTURED your company's personnel, it's a REALLY BIG BETRAYAL. So come off it.

And even if Cerberus was the heroes some of you are making them out to be, it's still a betrayal, because Shepard was an Alliance Marine, she owed her allegiance to the Alliance and to the Council. When she signed on with Cerberus, she flipped them both a huge bird. And that, boys and girls, is a BETRAYAL. So you can try to dance away from Shepard being a traitor all you want, but no matter how you slice it, she IS one. BIG time.