1476 réponses à ce sujet

[ubermensch007]

Okay there is some SERIOUS "Guilt By Association" Logic going on around here...

Sianonsea II wrote... I agree. Personally, it seems like a lot of people's arguments distill down to "Cerberus isn't so bad", and that makes me sick. I don't know if people didn't play the first game, or if they genuinely don't have a problem with the murder, torture, sick experiments and other heinous acts Cerberus has committed in the past. If it's the latter, then I will never be on the same wavelength with them, ever. If it's the former, they need to educate themselves before clipping on that Cerberus nametag.

All you have to do is associate yourself with them, and their sins are your sins. You don't get to dodge that. Just like you don't get to work freelance for the Mafia or Yakuza or drug-cartel-of-your-choice. There's no plausible deniability or mitigating circumstance. If you want to accept that burden to achieve what you believe is a greater good, well, do that. But accept the consequences.

Okay there is something really ironic about this statement.(That is in bold print) Isn't that the same mentality that Terrorist have, in order to justify the killing of civilians? Isn't this how most of the inter galctic community treats the Quarians? Even though they are innocent of the sins of their ancestors.Personally -- I tend to agree with the other veiw:

“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin." Deuteronomy 24:16


By Sianonsea's logic of, "Cerberus did this that and something else abhorrent -- and if you work with them or for them.(Regardless of in what compacity or reason.)Your going to hell in a handbasket... Right along with them."

For clarity:

Let's look at the FACTS:

• Cerberus murdered Alliance Admiral Kahoku.
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Akuze and deliberately got them all killed (except for Corporal Toombs and Shepard, if she has the Sole Survivor background)
• Cerberus lured Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest on Edolus with a bogus distress beacon, and deliberately got them all killed.
• Cerberus tortured Corporal Toombs by injecting him with thresher maw acid to observe the effects "for science".

• Shepard was an Alliance Marine.
• Kaidan Alenko IS an Alliance Marine.
• Ashley Williams IS an Alliance Marine.

Do you people REALLY not see how Shepard working with Cerberus is a BETRAYAL? Are you all stupid? Or just sociopaths?

One could also say,"Well since America was founded by way of:

- Deal Breaking with Native Americans

- Ethnic cleasning of many Native American Tribes: The Long Walk of the Navajo as an example.

- The enslavement of foreigners

- Cultural genocide: "In order to save the man.You have to kill the Indian." & What African Americans lost of their native culture is even worse.

That simply being an American citizen is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY

But the America of the 21st Century is not the America of the Founding (douche bag) <_< Fathers.

And Cerberus in 2185 is not the same organization that it once was.If you Cerberus Haters would recall The Mass Effect 2 Prologue The Illusive Man and Operative Miranda Lawson were willing to work with the Citadel Council.

Miranda: Shepard did everything right.More than we could have hoped for! Saving the Citadel -- even saving the Council.Humanity has the trust of the entire galaxy... and still.It's not enough.

Illusive Man: Our sacrifices have earned the Council's gratitude, but Shepard remains our best hope.

Miranda: But their sending him to fight geth... Geth!?! We both know they're not the real threat.The Reapers are still out there.

Illusive Man: And it's up to us to stop them.

(You see -- this right here; is why I like Miranda and the Illusive Man.There on the same wavelength as Commander Shepard)

Miranda: The Council will never trust Cerberus.They'll never accept our help. Even after evrything humanity has accomplished.

It seems to me.That the only ones behaving like Grown Ups in ME 2.Is Cerberus and Shepard and Co.They're willing to extend an olive branch to the Citadel Council and by extension the Alliance.But those groups are in lock step with the Virmire Survivor's favorite action figure pull the string line,"I'll NEVER WORK WITH CERBERUS!"

Modifié par ubermensch007, 07 août 2011 - 06:03 .

[paul165]

>>Did they? Are you sure the Council believes Sovereign was really a Reaper? What if they really believe it was just a really big geth ship? The only "Reaper" proof is in Shepard's brain, they have no reason to really buy into that story. And it's still not on par with murder and torture.<<

The problem with the Geth ship theory is in that case - what's stopping the Geth building another one? They don't have to beleive in the Reapers but selling the situation normal line is just daft.

As to the betrayal I'm pretty sure being dead absolves you of all loyalties in an employer - employee kind of way. After all works for marriage vows **looks innocent**

>>Which Shepard doesn't hear until AFTER she's the Illusive Man's b¡tch. And the Alliance letting go of some loudmouth insubordinate personnel is still not equivalent to torture and murder.<<

No...denying the Reaper threat/Geth threat whatever you want to call it has consequences far more horrifying than Cerberus playing with syringes. Not to mention how many colonists do you have to save to start being worthy of being listened to?

The objection to Cerberus can't be that they merely commit war crimes - in the ME Galaxy so does everyone else including the people you worked for in ME1. I didn't see anyone playing the holier than thou card when you were working for the Council which had commited genocide on a level that TIM can barely even dream of.

I'm not arguing Cerberus isn't evil - I think few people would. The problem 'with Cerberus is evil therefore anything the VS does in response is justified' as a line of argument is that:
a)Shepard does not participate in any of those actions - indeed the few operations that Cerberus involves you in tend to involve cleaning up those kinds of messes (Overlord)
b)You chose, sort of, to work for the Council; to ally with Quarians, Krogan, Rachni so Shepard and, therefore the VS, doesn't really have any great moral advantage to claim. It's not like the USA vs. terrorists (or WW2) it's much more akin to medieval Europe - lots of roughly equivilant powers running around with soldiers doing horrible things with an utter lack of civilian oversight or control.
Also more similiar to medival Europe is that sides occasionally switch both for organisations (Cerberus in ME2) and personnel (Shepard, Joker etc). It is worth noting that the Alliance must surely know that Jacob is working with Cerberus so in response the Alliance.....offers him a job. Not to mention changing uniform doesn't really impede you being Hackett's gofer any more than being a Spectre did.

Modifié par paul165, 07 août 2011 - 08:11 .

[Dariustwinblade]

I find it halarious that Hackett contacts a Cerberus personal, a traitor to rescue Dr Kelson.

Wouldn't it be better to send the VS. After all they are lol specters.

[Ryzaki]

Dariustwinblade wrote...

I find it halarious that Hackett contacts a Cerberus personal, a traitor to rescue Dr Kelson.

Wouldn't it be better to send the VS. After all they are lol specters.

Aye. 

Just makes the whole "TRAITOR111!!!" everyone else does even more facepalm worthy. 

Yes why it makes perfect sense to send evil traitors on top secret and sensitive missions. :innocent: And it also makes sense to come on said evil traitor's ship alone and practically unarmed. 

[Dariustwinblade]

Best and most touching part of the DLC was.

Shepard: Sir, I did what I had to do. Here are the reports.

Hackett:Keep it! I don't need a report to know you did the right thing.

Compare an Admiral a officer who is way higher in rank to Shepard. His trust and comments.

To the VS who fought and shed blood with Shep.

[paul165]

Not to mention Hackett's entry in LotSB. Either Cerberus really has massively infiltrated the Alliance or Hackett is seriously sticking his neck out.

Of course the most recent novel suggests that the Alliance really is that compromised.

[RGC_Ines]

First, Cerberus WAS a part of Alliance...Eventually they went " rogue", but who knows if Alliance REALLY have bond with them no more( what dangerous and important is in Kasumi Grey Box? Evidence that Cerberus is STILL part of Alliance maybe?). Second thing is, that Shepard want to save humanity and others races from Reapers. While Alliance and Council don't want to belive in Reapers, ruining everything what Shepard done so far, will not interfere in Terminus System and will not secure human colonies, who will help Shepard to stop danger if not Cerberus? For me, to cooperate with Cerberus is just lesser evil. Do " traitor theory" supporters really belive, that Shepard could do something good, if he/she i.e told TIM to f.....k off and return to Alliance? Still no one would belive about Reapers, no one would help human colonies in Terminus System, no one would stop Harbringer and no one would destroy Terminator-alike Reaper, even yours VS would be melt into " human juice" to feed Reaper baby.Shepard isn't the traitor..She/He just use every help she/he can get to save life in Galaxy. Don't You really remember first war between humans and Turians? Rachni war? Krogan Horde raids? Still You don't call Shepard a traitor becouse she/he work with Turians, Krogans and Rachni...but Shepard is a traitor becouse she/he use Cerberus resources to save thousand lifes..really...

Modifié par RGC_Ines, 07 août 2011 - 09:47 .

[eternalnightmare13]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dariustwinblade wrote...

I find it halarious that Hackett contacts a Cerberus personal, a traitor to rescue Dr Kelson.

Wouldn't it be better to send the VS. After all they are lol specters.

Aye. 

Just makes the whole "TRAITOR111!!!" everyone else does even more facepalm worthy. 

Yes why it makes perfect sense to send evil traitors on top secret and sensitive missions. :innocent: And it also makes sense to come on said evil traitor's ship alone and practically unarmed. 

Especially since you get the message from Hackett shortly after Horizon where you meet the VS. LOL
Some could argue that Hackett knew that the system may be destroyed by The Project, and it'd be safer to plant all the evidence/fault on Shepard - a rogue spectre/traitor/awol Alliance Marine then someone who works for the Citadel or Alliance since they don't condone mission like this *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*  He also doesn't take your report at the end, further distancing himself for your Shepard.  

You could say ''well Cerberus has bugs and monitoring devices all over the ship. Shepard could use that recording of the meeting to defend himself in trial''.  But if the Alliance confinscates the Normandy they'll go over it with a fine tooth comb, and Hackett's high up enough to make that evidence disappear.

As far as Hackett's arrival on the Normandy, that doesn't make much sense if Hackett's using Shepard as a tool.
It would've been easier to send another message and delete it.  

During the conversation on board the Normandy, Hackett's supportive of Shepard regardless of your choices in dialogue.  He doesn't come across as ''holy ****, shepard! you're a traitor!''  I have the impression the upper brass of the Alliance, and the Council are a cluster **** while people like Hackett and Anderson know what's up for real with the Reapers.

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...

The problem with the Geth ship theory is in that case - what's stopping the Geth building another one? They don't have to beleive in the Reapers but selling the situation normal line is just daft.

Is the Alliance/Council daft when it comes to the Reapers? Sure. Never said they weren't. But that doesn't hold up in court when you're on trial for TREASON, which is where Shepard should be for working with Cerberus. If you want to quit the Alliance and go to work for the organization that murdered and tortured your fellow Alliance Marines, you should kind of expect them to not take it well. They will see it as a BETRAYAL. Because it IS ONE.

As to the betrayal I'm pretty sure being dead absolves you of all loyalties in an employer - employee kind of way. After all works for marriage vows **looks innocent**

Ah, yes, "I was dead", the oldest tax dodge in the book. The Alliance never saw the body, and no one in their right mind would believe a story like that.

Which Shepard doesn't hear until AFTER she's the Illusive Man's b¡tch. And the Alliance letting go of some loudmouth insubordinate personnel is still not equivalent to torture and murder.

No...denying the Reaper threat/Geth threat whatever you want to call it has consequences far more horrifying than Cerberus playing with syringes. Not to mention how many colonists do you have to save to start being worthy of being listened to?

The objection to Cerberus can't be that they merely commit war crimes - in the ME Galaxy so does everyone else including the people you worked for in ME1. I didn't see anyone playing the holier than thou card when you were working for the Council which had commited genocide on a level that TIM can barely even dream of.

I'm not arguing Cerberus isn't evil - I think few people would. The problem 'with Cerberus is evil therefore anything the VS does in response is justified' as a line of argument is that:
a)Shepard does not participate in any of those actions - indeed the few operations that Cerberus involves you in tend to involve cleaning up those kinds of messes (Overlord)
b)You chose, sort of, to work for the Council; to ally with Quarians, Krogan, Rachni so Shepard and, therefore the VS, doesn't really have any great moral advantage to claim. It's not like the USA vs. terrorists (or WW2) it's much more akin to medieval Europe - lots of roughly equivilant powers running around with soldiers doing horrible things with an utter lack of civilian oversight or control.
Also more similiar to medival Europe is that sides occasionally switch both for organisations (Cerberus in ME2) and personnel (Shepard, Joker etc). It is worth noting that the Alliance must surely know that Jacob is working with Cerberus so in response the Alliance.....offers him a job. Not to mention changing uniform doesn't really impede you being Hackett's gofer any more than being a Spectre did.

This has more to do with the specific relationship between the Alliance and Cerberus, and the specific acts Cerberus has committed against the Alliance than anything else. You can't just chalk it up to a murky political climate. Cerberus has attacked the Alliance on a number of occasions. It's personal.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...


Or maybe Shepard, realizing how REALLY REALLY BAD it looks, should say something more compelling than "I was out for two years, Cerberus rebuilt me". Shepard is a big girl, she doesn't have to passively wait to be asked before she can offer an explanation. It should be understood that she has a LOT of explaining to do. She's not some wallflower. Did she think the VS wasn't going to want to know how she could ever stoop to working with Cerberus?

And I'm still seeing variations on the "Cerberus isn't so bad" theme. The lengths people will go to in order to rationalize their hissy fit over being called out by an NPC. Cerberus is straight-up EVIL folks. No amount of lawyering is going to erase that. Shepard signed on with criminals. She BETRAYED EVERYTHING SHE AND THE VS STOOD FOR. Maybe she did it "for the right reasons", or maybe she's just indoctrination or control-chipped, who knows. Or maybe she's an uncaring psycho. Sometimes the simplest answer is best. But her loyalty to the Alliance is out the window, that's for sure, and I don't see why anyone would ever trust her again. I wouldn't.

I don't disagree that Shepard should have been more forthcoming.  What I am saying is the responsibility goes both ways.  If the VS doesn't ask the right questions, Shepard should volunteer the information.  At the same time, if Shepard is not forthcoming, it falls on the VS to dig deeper.  The scene is a failure on both their parts.  

And Cerberus is that bad.  They're a blight on humanity, supplemented by some naive/idealistic fools like Chambers, Ken&Gabby, and yes, even Joker.  But the Reapers and their tools the Collectors, are far worse.  Bad as Cerberus is, they are the "lesser evil"  At least for the time being.

As such, Shepard did not (necessarilly) betray his or her ideals, but simply dealt with a greater threat, using whatever weapons were available.  If Shepard stood for defending the Alliance and humanity as a marine and defending the Citadel Council and its representative races as a Spectre, well, he did exactly that.  Not using approved methods, true.  But he "got the job done" honorably and without stooping to Cerberus' level (necessarilly)

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


Or maybe Shepard, realizing how REALLY REALLY BAD it looks, should say something more compelling than "I was out for two years, Cerberus rebuilt me". Shepard is a big girl, she doesn't have to passively wait to be asked before she can offer an explanation. It should be understood that she has a LOT of explaining to do. She's not some wallflower. Did she think the VS wasn't going to want to know how she could ever stoop to working with Cerberus?

And I'm still seeing variations on the "Cerberus isn't so bad" theme. The lengths people will go to in order to rationalize their hissy fit over being called out by an NPC. Cerberus is straight-up EVIL folks. No amount of lawyering is going to erase that. Shepard signed on with criminals. She BETRAYED EVERYTHING SHE AND THE VS STOOD FOR. Maybe she did it "for the right reasons", or maybe she's just indoctrination or control-chipped, who knows. Or maybe she's an uncaring psycho. Sometimes the simplest answer is best. But her loyalty to the Alliance is out the window, that's for sure, and I don't see why anyone would ever trust her again. I wouldn't.

I don't disagree that Shepard should have been more forthcoming.  What I am saying is the responsibility goes both ways.  If the VS doesn't ask the right questions, Shepard should volunteer the information.  At the same time, if Shepard is not forthcoming, it falls on the VS to dig deeper.  The scene is a failure on both their parts.  

And Cerberus is that bad.  They're a blight on humanity, supplemented by some naive/idealistic fools like Chambers, Ken&Gabby, and yes, even Joker.  But the Reapers and their tools the Collectors, are far worse.  Bad as Cerberus is, they are the "lesser evil"  At least for the time being.

As such, Shepard did not (necessarilly) betray his or her ideals, but simply dealt with a greater threat, using whatever weapons were available.  If Shepard stood for defending the Alliance and humanity as a marine and defending the Citadel Council and its representative races as a Spectre, well, he did exactly that.  Not using approved methods, true.  But he "got the job done" honorably and without stooping to Cerberus' level (necessarilly)

And if everyone could be inside Shepard's mind and know for certain that Shepard is on the side of the angels, that would be true. But Ashley didn't show up on Horizon and say "oh, and by the way I'm now working for the batarian slavers that killed your parents on Mindoir." Whatever burden of responsibility weighs upon the two of them in that situation, the greater responsibility is on SHEPARD. Shepard is the one who has been missing for two years, and presumed dead. Shepard is the one who has signed on with people that the VS knows as the enemy. Ashley has been on the straight and narrow. Kaidan is exactly where you'd expect him to be. There is no disconnect. But Shepard working for Cerberus is not a scenario I would have ever imagined being possible if I'm the VS.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

And if everyone could be inside Shepard's mind and know for certain that Shepard is on the side of the angels, that would be true. But Ashley didn't show up on Horizon and say "oh, and by the way I'm now working for the batarian slavers that killed your parents on Mindoir." Whatever burden of responsibility weighs upon the two of them in that situation, the greater responsibility is on SHEPARD. Shepard is the one who has been missing for two years, and presumed dead. Shepard is the one who has signed on with people that the VS knows as the enemy. Ashley has been on the straight and narrow. Kaidan is exactly where you'd expect him to be. There is no disconnect. But Shepard working for Cerberus is not a scenario I would have ever imagined being possible if I'm the VS.

Yes!  Exactly!  For a paragon Shepard it's prtty much unthinkable!  And yet it happened!  And the VS completely forgets everything that Shepard has done in the past to make such a situation unthinkable and jumps straight to the "traitor" conclusion with no stops in between.  Shepard should have been more forthcoming, yes, but the VS should have said "Why?  This isn't like you!" rather than "You've betrayed everything we stood for!"  

After all, Shepard was "on the side of the angels" shouldn't making a deal with the devil make one doubt that he is in fact Shepard, rather than assuming he's a traitor?

[1136342t54_]

I'm not at all sure how the hell this topic ended up turning into a cerberus morals topic. I am going to just tell my opinion about the whole thing.

Cerberus is bad yes very bad. The leader and likely a few members of the group has this warped view that they represent humanity as a whole and that they are humanity. Everything they have done involving assassination, biological weapons, death camps, experimenting on children etc. makes them a group that I wouldn't call terrorist but something in between terrorist and ****s.

Their is one thing that makes them a lesser evil then the Reapers and even more preferred than the Council in some cases. They are actually intelligent enough to regard the Reapers as a threat. Shepard was faced with a choice in ME2. Go with the Alliance and the Council then try to convince them that the Reapers are involved behind the missing colonies and we all know how that will turn out. The second choice is work with Cerberus a group while pretty evil will do everything they can to stop the Reapers.

Of course the VS won't see it this way which is understandable. The VS has such a faith in the Alliance they are content with having the Alliance figure this out. They are loyal to a fault. Shepard has spent enough time in the Spectres to know that governments don't always have a plan for everything and you need to skirt the law or outright ignore the law and morals to get the job done.

Hell even Paragon shepard will admit to releasing the Rachni on the galaxy and sacrficing hundreds of lives for the Destiny Ascension.

[Sepewrath]

I don't think the governments are ignoring the Reaper threat, they are just not as active as Cerberus. Cerberus can do whatever the feel like, their considered criminals so what's one more illegal act? Its the Gallows for the TIM if he is ever caught, so he is not restricted.

The governments on other hand do have problems, the Alliance cant just send a Garrison into the Terminus systems to investigate and none can openly prepare for the Reapers; if the galaxy falls apart from fear, then there is no point in stopping the Reaper invasion. But unfortunately the Reapers don't care about any of that, so you have to do what you have to do. If that is working with Cerberus, then so be it.

[Sepewrath]

No one can deny what happened at the Citadel, they know full well that was no Geth ship. They simply wont tell Shepard, the person running around wearing a sandwich board, yelling "The End is Nigh" about their plans. Because like I said, if people knew that the destruction that happened at the Citadel was nothing compared to what will happen, that's the end of this cushy galactic society.

[1136342t54_]

Sepewrath wrote...

I don't think the governments are ignoring the Reaper threat, they are just not as active as Cerberus. Cerberus can do whatever the feel like, their considered criminals so what's one more illegal act? Its the Gallows for the TIM if he is ever caught, so he is not restricted.

The governments on other hand do have problems, the Alliance cant just send a Garrison into the Terminus systems to investigate and none can openly prepare for the Reapers; if the galaxy falls apart from fear, then there is no point in stopping the Reaper invasion. But unfortunately the Reapers don't care about any of that, so you have to do what you have to do. If that is working with Cerberus, then so be it.

This arguments works for the Alliance but not the Council. The Council easily can send Spectres out to either aid shepard directly or indirectly in shep's crusade against the Reapers. Spectres ignore most laws anyway.

Now it is possible that the Council could be tricking Shepard into thinking they are doing nothing when in reality they are sending out Spectre agents to deal with the Reaper threat but so far I'm not so sure. I kind of hope that is the case because it would explain their supposed stupidity.

[Xeranx]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And if everyone could be inside Shepard's mind and know for certain that Shepard is on the side of the angels, that would be true. But Ashley didn't show up on Horizon and say "oh, and by the way I'm now working for the batarian slavers that killed your parents on Mindoir." Whatever burden of responsibility weighs upon the two of them in that situation, the greater responsibility is on SHEPARD. Shepard is the one who has been missing for two years, and presumed dead. Shepard is the one who has signed on with people that the VS knows as the enemy. Ashley has been on the straight and narrow. Kaidan is exactly where you'd expect him to be. There is no disconnect. But Shepard working for Cerberus is not a scenario I would have ever imagined being possible if I'm the VS.

Yes!  Exactly!  For a paragon Shepard it's prtty much unthinkable!  And yet it happened!  And the VS completely forgets everything that Shepard has done in the past to make such a situation unthinkable and jumps straight to the "traitor" conclusion with no stops in between.  Shepard should have been more forthcoming, yes, but the VS should have said "Why?  This isn't like you!" rather than "You've betrayed everything we stood for!"  

After all, Shepard was "on the side of the angels" shouldn't making a deal with the devil make one doubt that he is in fact Shepard, rather than assuming he's a traitor?

For all anyone knew Shepard made it to an escape pod before the Normandy blew.  Joker made it and he needed Shepard's help.  Shepard then being away for two years and suddenly showing up is enough for someone to cast the traitor line.  Especially if the person being deemed a traitor is so nonchalant about mentioning Cerberus during that encounter.  It's a pretty dickish thing to do especially for a Shepard who takes the high road and remembers what they uncovered concerning Cerberus and Kahoku.  A sole survivor Shepard is even worse, but Shepard was made to put on the dunce cap before landing on Horizon so this mess is what we have.  

The VS should have been eased into the topic of Cerberus however gently and quickly as possible.  Then again a lot of what was there was a clumsy and awkward.  Going through that scene again Ashley doesn't owe Shepard anything.  Shepard owes her a better explanation.  You'd figure the person who's able to look a Warden in the eye about holding on to their weapon, and pretty much insult an entire admiralty board and still get Tali exonerated would be able to string along coherent ideas to get the message across to Ash or Kaidan.

[Ryzaki]

For all anyone knew?

Why yes Joker who saw Shepard died right in his face obviously wouldn't bother to say that little detail right?

[Iakus]

Xeranx wrote...

For all anyone knew Shepard made it to an escape pod before the Normandy blew.  Joker made it and he needed Shepard's help.  Shepard then being away for two years and suddenly showing up is enough for someone to cast the traitor line.  Especially if the person being deemed a traitor is so nonchalant about mentioning Cerberus during that encounter.  It's a pretty dickish thing to do especially for a Shepard who takes the high road and remembers what they uncovered concerning Cerberus and Kahoku.  A sole survivor Shepard is even worse, but Shepard was made to put on the dunce cap before landing on Horizon so this mess is what we have.  

Ah, but one question that never seems to come up is why.  If Shepard in ME1 was a xenophobic renegade who likes the way the Terra Firma party thinks., that would be one thing.  But a paragon who plays nice with the Council and is loyal to the Alliance?  The VS never bothers to think that joining Cerberus is somehow out of character.  Granted Shepard's brain short-circuiting at that particular moment doesn't help, but the VS never seems to think "this is out of character for the Commander Shepard I knew.  what's going on here?"

The VS should have been eased into the topic of Cerberus however gently and quickly as possible.  Then again a lot of what was there was a clumsy and awkward.  Going through that scene again Ashley doesn't owe Shepard anything.  Shepard owes her a better explanation.  You'd figure the person who's able to look a Warden in the eye about holding on to their weapon, and pretty much insult an entire admiralty board and still get Tali exonerated would be able to string along coherent ideas to get the message across to Ash or Kaidan.

The VS owed it to Shepard to try to sort out Shep's reasoning for joining Cerberus.  He/she didn't owe Shep to join, to approve, or condone those actions.  But understand?  Or at least try to?  Oh, yes.  For saving the galaxy from the Reapers, for saving the VS's life on Virmire, then again on Horizon.   For smashing other Cerberus projects and being generally anti-Cerberus in general.

But yeah, the whole thing is unrealisticly derpy.  The VS leaps to the worst possible conclusion beyond all rationality.  And Shepard is rendered unable to speak coherantly to defend himself.  the entire scene is a big middle finger to VS fans.

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

For all anyone knew?

Why yes Joker who saw Shepard died right in his face obviously wouldn't bother to say that little detail right?

Yeah, and that "credible witness" went and ... joined Cerberus too ... hmmmmmmmmm.

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

For all anyone knew Shepard made it to an escape pod before the Normandy blew.  Joker made it and he needed Shepard's help.  Shepard then being away for two years and suddenly showing up is enough for someone to cast the traitor line.  Especially if the person being deemed a traitor is so nonchalant about mentioning Cerberus during that encounter.  It's a pretty dickish thing to do especially for a Shepard who takes the high road and remembers what they uncovered concerning Cerberus and Kahoku.  A sole survivor Shepard is even worse, but Shepard was made to put on the dunce cap before landing on Horizon so this mess is what we have.  

Ah, but one question that never seems to come up is why.  If Shepard in ME1 was a xenophobic renegade who likes the way the Terra Firma party thinks., that would be one thing.  But a paragon who plays nice with the Council and is loyal to the Alliance?  The VS never bothers to think that joining Cerberus is somehow out of character.  Granted Shepard's brain short-circuiting at that particular moment doesn't help, but the VS never seems to think "this is out of character for the Commander Shepard I knew.  what's going on here?"

What gets me is that everyone is acting like the VS is the one to blame for Horizon. The VS is a loyal Alliance soldier doing their job, they are completely on the up-and-up. Shepard shows up after two years, presumed dead, working for people who have murdered and tortured Alliance personnel. Yeah, I don't blame the VS for not asking "Why, Shepard?" I blame Shepard, for not saying what she needed to say. And for not understanding that her stupid blunted-affect remarks weren't going to do anything but INCREASE the VS' discomfort and suspicion.

The VS should have been eased into the topic of Cerberus however gently and quickly as possible.  Then again a lot of what was there was a clumsy and awkward.  Going through that scene again Ashley doesn't owe Shepard anything.  Shepard owes her a better explanation.  You'd figure the person who's able to look a Warden in the eye about holding on to their weapon, and pretty much insult an entire admiralty board and still get Tali exonerated would be able to string along coherent ideas to get the message across to Ash or Kaidan.

The VS owed it to Shepard to try to sort out Shep's reasoning for joining Cerberus.  He/she didn't owe Shep to join, to approve, or condone those actions.  But understand?  Or at least try to?  Oh, yes.  For saving the galaxy from the Reapers, for saving the VS's life on Virmire, then again on Horizon.   For smashing other Cerberus projects and being generally anti-Cerberus in general.

But yeah, the whole thing is unrealisticly derpy.  The VS leaps to the worst possible conclusion beyond all rationality.  And Shepard is rendered unable to speak coherantly to defend himself.  the entire scene is a big middle finger to VS fans.

If anyone thinks any soldier is going to be sanguine about one of their brothers-in-arms joining an organization who have actively murdered and tortured their fellow soldiers, well, you're wrong. Soldiers take that sh¡t REALLY SERIOUSLY.

[Ziggy]

I agree with Sian.

Ash's reaction was understandable tho the whole scene was a bit abrupt. I just wish shep had better dialogue options to explain it : ( but as bioware wanted the vs safely out of the way for me3 it was not to be.

Modifié par Em23, 08 août 2011 - 06:11 .