1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Ah nevermind. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 août 2011 - 07:09 .

[Xeranx]

iakus wrote...

Ah, but one question that never seems to come up is why.  If Shepard in ME1 was a xenophobic renegade who likes the way the Terra Firma party thinks., that would be one thing.  But a paragon who plays nice with the Council and is loyal to the Alliance?  The VS never bothers to think that joining Cerberus is somehow out of character.  Granted Shepard's brain short-circuiting at that particular moment doesn't help, but the VS never seems to think "this is out of character for the Commander Shepard I knew.  what's going on here?"

I don't know when they why would come in.  Maybe between Shepard's been gone for two years and Cerberus helped Shepard back on their feet.  By the way, I'm not using a mocking tone there.  The only person who knows about Shepard's condition pre-Cerberus is Liara and judging from the encounter between the VS and Shepard I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that Liara never said anything to anyone else.  That is incredibly trusting on her part considering she knows what Cerberus did in the first game and wholly insulting to the VS if Shepard had romanced them.

 Even if Shepard didn't romance them it's still insulting because it calls to question their memory or everyone's memory of someone they trusted.  In light of that I'm surprised that Joker and Chakwas had no issues with Shepard being around them again.  There should have been a lot of tension there for all pre-Cerberus squad.  Actually there should have been a whole lot of tension period which would have put to good use your idea of having the squad actually train together.

I know I went off on a tangent: So I'm of the mind to say that they were completely justified in how they were thinking.  Shepard could have been patched up a few days after the Normandy was blown up for all they know.  Shepard could have started working for Cerberus.  "Shepard's a hero.  A bloody icon."  All of Shepard's words on Horizon could have been a way to get the VS to join up.  Ashley herself says, "I want to believe you, but I don't trust Cerberus" which implies there might be something deeper that she's seeing that you, as Shepard, don't because it's not there.  Shepard might be a veritable venus fly trap.  There's a lot there that I can imagine them thinking whoever's running Cerberus is trying to screw with them.  Especially since they were lured out to Horizon by a leaked report by TIM.

The VS owed it to Shepard to try to sort out Shep's reasoning for joining Cerberus.  He/she didn't owe Shep to join, to approve, or condone those actions.  But understand?  Or at least try to?  Oh, yes.  For saving the galaxy from the Reapers, for saving the VS's life on Virmire, then again on Horizon.   For smashing other Cerberus projects and being generally anti-Cerberus in general.

But yeah, the whole thing is unrealisticly derpy.  The VS leaps to the worst possible conclusion beyond all rationality.  And Shepard is rendered unable to speak coherantly to defend himself.  the entire scene is a big middle finger to VS fans.

The VS owed Shepard nothing in that scenario.  As I said there's a lot of potential pitfalls for someone looking from the outside in that they can't hope to rectify knowing what their history is in regards to Cerberus.  

Some time ago it was speculated that TIM probably put on the ship all those he felt were expendable.  That if they were all to die then it would still be a good thing so long as the mission was a success.  Up until we complete the suicide mission that's a very real possibility.  That would explain the aliens being there: Garrus who is apparantly good enough to take on three gangs at once, Samara being a Justicar who ventured out of Asari space, Mordin being a scientist who can counteract the seeker swarm and was also part of STG (I mean, if he joins up no one else will think Cerberus was the same old fanatical clandestine group they've been known to be, Miranda who seeks to be recognized for her own talents and also has a sister who Cerberus helps keep secret from the very man that also makes contributions to the organization or has dealings with them, Jack being a Cerberus lab rat - knowing that Gillian is still around why not sacrifice that which they have no hope of controlling, etc.

[Sepewrath]

1136342t54 wrote...
This arguments works for the Alliance but not the Council. The Council easily can send Spectres out to either aid shepard directly or indirectly in shep's crusade against the Reapers. Spectres ignore most laws anyway.

Now it is possible that the Council could be tricking Shepard into thinking they are doing nothing when in reality they are sending out Spectre agents to deal with the Reaper threat but so far I'm not so sure. I kind of hope that is the case because it would explain their supposed stupidity.

Spectres could very well be working on it, its not like you would know, anymore than they would know what Shepard is doing. And like I said, Shepard is too vocal about the Reaper thing, hence the reason they would be kept out of the loop. Its not about tricking Shepard, but this isn't something you broadcast; you ever saw that movie Deep Impact, an asteroid was coming and they didn't tell anyone until they had to. You don't tell people "It doesn't matter what you do, your going to be dead in 6 weeks" That's not going to end well.

jreezy wrote...

Maybe both Shepard and the VS were to
blame for the Horizon mishap, I just think the VS is a little more at
fault then Shepard is in that situation.

I wouldn't say Shepard is to blame at all, but the reaction of the VS is expected. Its not rational, but emotional people, with preconcieved notions, seldom are rational. Even if Cerberus was fighting the good fight this time, there is no reason to trust them, their not doing it out the kindness of their heart and as you see TIM at the end, he makes his play for a power grab. And clearly he's going for the gold in ME3, so they were right on the money to not trust Cerberus. Shepard had to do what they had to do, but that doesn't anyone has to like it.

Modifié par Sepewrath, 08 août 2011 - 07:21 .

[paul165]

>>Spectres could very well be working on it, its not like you would know, anymore than they would know what Shepard is doing. <<

Whilst an interesting theory if they were preparing for the Reapers there should be signs of a massive military build up possibly even introducing conscription let alone increasing recruitment. These things are difficult to hide and there is - as far as I'm aware no sign this is occuring.

>>If you want to quit the Alliance and go to work for the organization that murdered and tortured your fellow Alliance Marines<<

You didn't quit - you died (in horrible agony for that matter) and then your enemies defiled your corpse. Yes that sounds implausible. to put it mildly, so maybe the VS should ask about that. Apart from anything else Ashley would probably see it as heresy? blasphemy? something along those lines and therefore should be really interested in asking questions about it.

Modifié par paul165, 08 août 2011 - 08:20 .

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...

>>Spectres could very well be working on it, its not like you would know, anymore than they would know what Shepard is doing. <<

Whilst an interesting theory if they were preparing for the Reapers there should be signs of a massive military build up possibly even introducing conscription let alone increasing recruitment. These things are difficult to hide and there is - as far as I'm aware no sign this is occuring.

>>If you want to quit the Alliance and go to work for the organization that murdered and tortured your fellow Alliance Marines<<

You didn't quit - you died (in horrible agony for that matter) and then your enemies defiled your corpse. Yes that sounds implausible. to put it mildly, so maybe the VS should ask about that. Apart from anything else Ashley would probably see it as heresy? blasphemy? something along those lines and therefore should be really interested in asking questions about it.

Aw, Shepard died. How sad for her. But she got better. And I'm supposed to believe that? 

It cracks me up that everyone expects the VS to be a dyed-in-the-wool Shepard fanboy/girl, who trusts Shepard wholly and unconditionally, and believes everything Shepard says. Someone who is expected to just ignore logic and believe whatever preposterous story Shepard tells them. Someone who is expected to just handwave the fact that Shepard is working for people who have MURDERED and TORTURED their fellow soldiers. 

This is 100% pure wish-fulfillment playercharacteritis. The real world doesn't work like that AT ALL. You don't get to just join a gang of criminals and expect your friends and co-workers to shrug and assume you're with them "for the right reasons". Pretty darned narcissistic to think that would EVER be the case.

[Rogue Unit]

Siansonea II wrote...

paul165 wrote...

>>Spectres could very well be working on it, its not like you would know, anymore than they would know what Shepard is doing. <<

Whilst an interesting theory if they were preparing for the Reapers there should be signs of a massive military build up possibly even introducing conscription let alone increasing recruitment. These things are difficult to hide and there is - as far as I'm aware no sign this is occuring.

>>If you want to quit the Alliance and go to work for the organization that murdered and tortured your fellow Alliance Marines<<

You didn't quit - you died (in horrible agony for that matter) and then your enemies defiled your corpse. Yes that sounds implausible. to put it mildly, so maybe the VS should ask about that. Apart from anything else Ashley would probably see it as heresy? blasphemy? something along those lines and therefore should be really interested in asking questions about it.

Aw, Shepard died. How sad for her. But she got better. And I'm supposed to believe that? 

It cracks me up that everyone expects the VS to be a dyed-in-the-wool Shepard fanboy/girl, who trusts Shepard wholly and unconditionally, and believes everything Shepard says. Someone who is expected to just ignore logic and believe whatever preposterous story Shepard tells them. Someone who is expected to just handwave the fact that Shepard is working for people who have MURDERED and TORTURED their fellow soldiers. 

This is 100% pure wish-fulfillment playercharacteritis. The real world doesn't work like that AT ALL. You don't get to just join a gang of criminals and expect your friends and co-workers to shrug and assume you're with them "for the right reasons". Pretty darned narcissistic to think that would EVER be the case.

Of course not. But when you show up with those same criminals, and they see you save not only their ass but half of the colony from a horde of genocidal monsters, I think you deserve a bit more than what they gave.

Maybe it's just me, but when all life as you know it - now and forerver - is at stake, I couldn't get a damn who you have to work with to save the day.

[Xeranx]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

paul165 wrote...

>>Spectres could very well be working on it, its not like you would know, anymore than they would know what Shepard is doing. <<

Whilst an interesting theory if they were preparing for the Reapers there should be signs of a massive military build up possibly even introducing conscription let alone increasing recruitment. These things are difficult to hide and there is - as far as I'm aware no sign this is occuring.

>>If you want to quit the Alliance and go to work for the organization that murdered and tortured your fellow Alliance Marines<<

You didn't quit - you died (in horrible agony for that matter) and then your enemies defiled your corpse. Yes that sounds implausible. to put it mildly, so maybe the VS should ask about that. Apart from anything else Ashley would probably see it as heresy? blasphemy? something along those lines and therefore should be really interested in asking questions about it.

Aw, Shepard died. How sad for her. But she got better. And I'm supposed to believe that? 

It cracks me up that everyone expects the VS to be a dyed-in-the-wool Shepard fanboy/girl, who trusts Shepard wholly and unconditionally, and believes everything Shepard says. Someone who is expected to just ignore logic and believe whatever preposterous story Shepard tells them. Someone who is expected to just handwave the fact that Shepard is working for people who have MURDERED and TORTURED their fellow soldiers. 

This is 100% pure wish-fulfillment playercharacteritis. The real world doesn't work like that AT ALL. You don't get to just join a gang of criminals and expect your friends and co-workers to shrug and assume you're with them "for the right reasons". Pretty darned narcissistic to think that would EVER be the case.

Of course not. But when you show up with those same criminals, and they see you save not only their ass but half of the colony from a horde of genocidal monsters, I think you deserve a bit more than what they gave.

Maybe it's just me, but when all life as you know it - now and forerver - is at stake, I couldn't get a damn who you have to work with to save the day.

A villain isn't necessarily a villain all the time.  Even Samara makes this distinction.

[Siansonea]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

paul165 wrote...

>>Spectres could very well be working on it, its not like you would know, anymore than they would know what Shepard is doing. <<

Whilst an interesting theory if they were preparing for the Reapers there should be signs of a massive military build up possibly even introducing conscription let alone increasing recruitment. These things are difficult to hide and there is - as far as I'm aware no sign this is occuring.

>>If you want to quit the Alliance and go to work for the organization that murdered and tortured your fellow Alliance Marines<<

You didn't quit - you died (in horrible agony for that matter) and then your enemies defiled your corpse. Yes that sounds implausible. to put it mildly, so maybe the VS should ask about that. Apart from anything else Ashley would probably see it as heresy? blasphemy? something along those lines and therefore should be really interested in asking questions about it.

Aw, Shepard died. How sad for her. But she got better. And I'm supposed to believe that? 

It cracks me up that everyone expects the VS to be a dyed-in-the-wool Shepard fanboy/girl, who trusts Shepard wholly and unconditionally, and believes everything Shepard says. Someone who is expected to just ignore logic and believe whatever preposterous story Shepard tells them. Someone who is expected to just handwave the fact that Shepard is working for people who have MURDERED and TORTURED their fellow soldiers. 

This is 100% pure wish-fulfillment playercharacteritis. The real world doesn't work like that AT ALL. You don't get to just join a gang of criminals and expect your friends and co-workers to shrug and assume you're with them "for the right reasons". Pretty darned narcissistic to think that would EVER be the case.

Of course not. But when you show up with those same criminals, and they see you save not only their ass but half of the colony from a horde of genocidal monsters, I think you deserve a bit more than what they gave.

Maybe it's just me, but when all life as you know it - now and forerver - is at stake, I couldn't get a damn who you have to work with to save the day.

Of course you don't "get a damn". You're a Renegade. "The ends justify the means". Right? Well, not everyone hops onto that slippery slope so eagerly. Some of us see Cerberus as a court of last resort, not Plan A.

And as for what the VS witnessed—I'm pretty sure being in stasis the whole time limited the scope of his/her observation. Let's see: Giant ship, a cloud of bugs, a sting on the neck, then cut to the smoking battlefield, several corpses of husks and Collectors (if the VS even knows what Collectors look like, or what they even are). And, just like the Alliance suspected might be the case, Cerberus is on the scene. Seems awfully coincidental. In fact, it's TOO coincidental. I'm expected to believe that Cerberus had nothing to do with the attack, just because it looks like they fought the aliens trying to abduct the colonists? Maybe that's what I'm supposed to think? Where Cerberus is concerned, I wouldn't put anything past them. Maybe this was an elaborate setup to get Cerberus in good with the Alliance. After all, these are the same people who put a bogus distress beacon on Edolus to lure Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest, getting all the Marines killed. And for what? Who knows with Cerberus? In any case, I'm not going to trust anyone with a Cerberus nametag to give me any credible information, even if one of them looks like my onetime CO, Commander Shepard. 

[MyOpinionSucks]

The VS' disbelief is fine. Perfectly understandable and justified. Doesn't make them right, though. However you want to spin it the fact of the matter is Shepard saved half the colony, was completely open about working with Cerberus and then the VS threw a hissy fit and stormed off to report you to the council.

Also, if I were a terrorist the last thing I'd do is admit it to a law enforcement agent.

[1136342t54_]

Sepewrath wrote...
Spectres could very well be working on it, its not like you would know, anymore than they would know what Shepard is doing. And like I said, Shepard is too vocal about the Reaper thing, hence the reason they would be kept out of the loop. Its not about tricking Shepard, but this isn't something you broadcast; you ever saw that movie Deep Impact, an asteroid was coming and they didn't tell anyone until they had to. You don't tell people "It doesn't matter what you do, your going to be dead in 6 weeks" That's not going to end well. 

Don't agree to much. Shepard isn't as vocal as you think he is. In ME1 he told the Council, Anderson and Udina mainly about the Reapers. ME2 the Council and maybe a few others about the Reapers. He was never that vocal about it. The Council could keep shep out the loop but then you would have the problem of leaving out someone who has the most experience dealing with the Reapers and possibly alienating a Spectre to the side of people like Cerberus.

[Siansonea]

MyOpinionSucks wrote...

The VS' disbelief is fine. Perfectly understandable and justified. Doesn't make them right, though. However you want to spin it the fact of the matter is Shepard saved half the colony, was completely open about working with Cerberus and then the VS threw a hissy fit and stormed off to report you to the council.

Also, if I were a terrorist the last thing I'd do is admit it to a law enforcement agent.

If that's your idea of a "hissy fit," you've led a sheltered life. 

Whatever Shepard did is all fine and good, but that doesn't give her the right to expect others to handwave the Cerberus connection. You don't get to work with Cerberus—freaking CERBERUS—and expect Alliance personnel to take it lightly. The VS has to assimilate a lot of information in a very short time, the Shepard working with Cerberus is a personal betrayal of the most bitter kind. Yeah, the VS might not have asked all the right questions. Understandable, I'd say. Shepard is working for someone who has actively killed and otherwise harmed Alliance soldiers. Shepard has to know that Cerberus is going to be a tough sell to an Alliance soldier, even a soldier she knows personally. And it's HER responsibility to make that sales pitch. If she gets all huffy and defensive  the way the folks on the BSN do, that just shows that she's lacks any sort of ability to see things from another person's point of view. 

[MyOpinionSucks]

I think we're arguing letter of the law against spirit of the law here.

Plus, if the VS really thought Shepard was a traitor then it was irresponsible of them to let him just waltz off.

[Siansonea]

MyOpinionSucks wrote...

I think we're arguing letter of the law against spirit of the law here.

Plus, if the VS really thought Shepard was a traitor then it was irresponsible of them to let him just waltz off.

Yeah, because working with criminals embraces "the spirit of the law". I don't think so. <_<

And the VS wasn't in Alliance/Council space. The VS is on a largely diplomatic mission to a non-Alliance colony. They don't have the authority to take Shepard into custody outside of Council/Alliance space. And furthermore, this assumes that the VS has already made up his/her mind about Shepard. Clearly, that's not the case. The VS comes across to me as extremely ambivalent, and deeply offended and concerned by Shepard's association with Cerberus. Which is a perfectly legitimate way to feel in that situation. But the VS does know there are other factors he/she is unaware of, and she does know Shepard's methods don't always look good on the surface. The VS is giving Shepard the benefit of the doubt, but the VS also wants Shepard to know that he/she isn't just going to turn a blind eye to Shepard working with Cerberus. And no loyal Alliance soldier SHOULD do that.

[MyOpinionSucks]

It does when you're talking about total galactic extinction. If the council and the alliance isn't doing anything constructive to combat it then you have every right to work with Cerberus. Hell you could even plead self-defense if you wanted to.

And please don't give me that jurisdiction nonsense. If I stumbled into Osama Bin Laden's palace by accident I'd shoot him. I wouldn't just walk away because I didn't have any legal authority. And if the VS hadn't made their mind up about Shepard yet, they shouldn't have called him a traitor. That's a heavy word. You should only use it when you're certain.

Personally I don't think Shepard's co-operation with Cerberus (and I'm very deliberately not saying 'working for' here as that would be factually inaccurate, at least for my Shepard) is a betrayal. It's clear that you do and I respect that. But even so you have to admit that given the circumstances betraying the alliance or the VS is the right thing to do. The moral thing to do.

(Coincidentally, and feel free to ignore this if you want as I understand it's off-topic, how do you feel about working with Legion? Because I think it's a comparable situation.)

[Kappa Neko]

Siansonea II wrote...

It cracks me up that everyone expects the VS to be a dyed-in-the-wool Shepard fanboy/girl, who trusts Shepard wholly and unconditionally, and believes everything Shepard says. Someone who is expected to just ignore logic and believe whatever preposterous story Shepard tells them. Someone who is expected to just handwave the fact that Shepard is working for people who have MURDERED and TORTURED their fellow soldiers. 

This is 100% pure wish-fulfillment playercharacteritis. The real world doesn't work like that AT ALL. You don't get to just join a gang of criminals and expect your friends and co-workers to shrug and assume you're with them "for the right reasons". Pretty darned narcissistic to think that would EVER be the case.

This.
Sometimes it feels like I'm the only one who likes the VS even more since Horizon. Reassuring that I'm not the only one after all ^^
Finally, one of the squadmates questioned Shepard! And righfully so IMO. I would have felt the same way. Betrayed and hurt.
BW should have written the scene differently, letting the player apologize or say *something* useful, but Kaidan and Ash lashing out at Shepard is fine by me.
I only hope we'll get the chance to apologize properly in ME3 and restore trust without making the VS survivorslook like the only ones to blame. My canon Shep would never have reacted the way she was forced to.

[Siansonea]

MyOpinionSucks wrote...


It does when you're talking about total galactic extinction. If the council and the alliance isn't doing anything constructive to combat it then you have every right to work with Cerberus. Hell you could even plead self-defense if you wanted to. 


And please don't give me that jurisdiction nonsense. If I stumbled into Osama Bin Laden's palace by accident I'd shoot him. I wouldn't just walk away because I didn't have any legal authority. And if the VS hadn't made their mind up about Shepard yet, they shouldn't have called him a traitor. That's a heavy word. You should only use it when you're certain.

Funny, the VS didn't use the word "traitor" at all. The phrase Kaidan used is "You betrayed everything we stood for". Which Shepard did. "Traitor" has a very specific connotation, generally of a political kind. But there are betrayals, great and small, that don't necessarily brand one a "traitor". But nice try at paraphrasing. You're kind of bad at it, by the way.


And anyway, grow some skin. If you decide to work with a group like Cerberus, being called a "traitor" is among the least of the wounds you can expect. Suck it up, cowgirl.

Personally I don't think Shepard's co-operation with Cerberus (and I'm very deliberately not saying 'working for' here as that would be factually inaccurate, at least for my Shepard) is a betrayal. It's clear that you do and I respect that. But even so you have to admit that given the circumstances betraying the alliance or the VS is the right thing to do. The moral thing to do.

I don't "have to admit" any such thing. Just because the game railroaded my Shepard into happily signing on with Cerberus doesn't mean I'm drinking the Cerberus Kool-Aid. If I wasn't limited by the game's ridiculously circumscribed options, I know Shepard could have found a way to get what she wanted out of Cerberus without being the Illusive Man's pet Spectre.

(Coincidentally, and feel free to ignore this if you want as I understand it's off-topic, how do you feel about working with Legion? Because I think it's a comparable situation.)

It is a comparable situation. I'm glad you asked.


I, Siansonea, understand that practical necessity of working with Legion, just I understand the practical necessity of going along with the Illusive Man—eventually. I have a wider view of events than any character in the game. But I don't expect everyone to understand that automatically, or reverentially defer to me because of "who I am" or somesuch. I understand the crew of the Rayya's extreme distrust of Shepard if she shows up with Legion in tow, as well as Kal'Reeger's incredulity at seeing Legion in Shepard's retinue on Haestrom. It's a perfectly understandable reaction. All they see is a geth mobile platform. They don't know anything about Legion. So they are on their guard, and they're not shy about letting Shepard know it. Same goes for the VS with Cerberus. Exact parallel. The issue is not "is it okay for Shepard to work for Cerberus" because frankly the jury is still out on that one. The issue is "is it reasonable for Shepard to expect the VS to overlook her association with Cerberus". I say that Shepard should know Kaidan and Ashley better than to think they would just shrug off something like that. And if she can't take a sharp remark like "you betrayed everything we stood for", she shouldn't go around betraying everything she once stood for.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 08 août 2011 - 06:20 .

[Siansonea]

Kappa Neko wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

It cracks me up that everyone expects the VS to be a dyed-in-the-wool Shepard fanboy/girl, who trusts Shepard wholly and unconditionally, and believes everything Shepard says. Someone who is expected to just ignore logic and believe whatever preposterous story Shepard tells them. Someone who is expected to just handwave the fact that Shepard is working for people who have MURDERED and TORTURED their fellow soldiers. 

This is 100% pure wish-fulfillment playercharacteritis. The real world doesn't work like that AT ALL. You don't get to just join a gang of criminals and expect your friends and co-workers to shrug and assume you're with them "for the right reasons". Pretty darned narcissistic to think that would EVER be the case.

This.
Sometimes it feels like I'm the only one who likes the VS even more since Horizon. Reassuring that I'm not the only one after all ^^
Finally, one of the squadmates questioned Shepard! And righfully so IMO. I would have felt the same way. Betrayed and hurt.
BW should have written the scene differently, letting the player apologize or say *something* useful, but Kaidan and Ash lashing out at Shepard is fine by me.
I only hope we'll get the chance to apologize properly in ME3 and restore trust without making the VS survivorslook like the only ones to blame. My canon Shep would never have reacted the way she was forced to.

I was beginning to think that I was the only one myself. I was absolutely shocked in my first playthrough when the game had my Shepard climb into bed with Cerberus so easily, with such weak protests from him. That particular Shepard is my most Paragon Shepard, and I would NEVER have expected him to work for Cerberus. I was all geared up for Cerberus being a main villain in ME2, I was beyond stunned that they were given the role of quest-giver. The first game went to great lengths to paint Cerberus as a heinous group of murderers and psychopaths. And then suddenly we're chatting up the Diaphanous Dude and taking orders from him? And this is right on the heels of a ridiculously contrived "death and resurrection" sequence. It was all I could do to keep going with the game. And then, thankfully, Kaidan had the good sense to call Shepard on that BS. I practically applauded. Honestly, if the supporting characters hadn't been so rich and intriguing, I would have used my game disks as Frisbees. Seriously, the writers have some major explaining to do on this whole Cerberus thing. Because there was definitely something I missed along the way.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 08 août 2011 - 06:30 .

[spirosz]

Siansonea II wrote...
I don't "have to admit" any such thing. Just because the game railroaded my Shepard into happily signing on with Cerberus doesn't mean I'm drinking the Cerberus Kool-Aid. If I wasn't limited by the game's ridiculously circumscribed options, I know Shepard could have found a way to get what she wanted out of Cerberus without being the Illusive Man's pet Spectre.

I agree with most of your points on the whole VS topic, but I'm just curious as to how you would of found anything without Cerberus's help.

Modifié par spiros9110, 08 août 2011 - 06:40 .

[MyOpinionSucks]

But we're talking about their reunion in Mass Effect 3. Where, presumably, they've been filled in on what Shepard's done and why he did it. I've said numerous times that I completely understand their reaction on Horizon, but only because they weren't in possession of all the salient facts.

My point is that from a broader perspective (the player's and by extension Shepard's) the VS was in the wrong. Once they're clued into that perspective in or before ME3 I'm pretty confident they won't be calling him a traitor.

(NB: I use the word traitor because as far as I'm aware it's the correct noun for someone who betrays something. English isn't my first language so forgive me if I've got that wrong.)

[Kappa Neko]

Siansonea II wrote...
I was beginning to think that I was the only one myself. I was absolutely shocked in my first playthrough when the game had my Shepard climb into bed with Cerberus so easily, with such weak protests from him. That particular Shepard is my most Paragon Shepard, and I would NEVER have expected him to work for Cerberus. I was all geared up for Cerberus being a main villain in ME2, I was beyond stunned that they were given the role of quest-giver. The first game went to great lengths to paint Cerberus as a heinous group of murderers and psychopaths. And then suddenly we're chatting up the Diaphanous Dude and taking orders from him? And this is right on the heels of a ridiculously contrived "death and resurrection" sequence. It was all I could do to keep going with the game. And then, thankfully, Kaidan had the good sense to call Shepard on that BS. I practically applauded. Honestly, if the supporting characters hadn't been so rich and intriguing, I would have used my game disks as Frisbees. Seriously, the writers have some major explaining to do on this whole Cerberus thing. Because there was definitely something I missed along the way.

Oh yes, being forced to work for Cerberus was a shock to me, too. I'm fine with the explanation given why Shep has to work for TIM now. But there wasn't much resistance on Shep's part. Nor was were the squadmates particularly dismayed.
I want a scene in which Shep shows how much s/he hated the Cerberus deal.

[Gibril]

I'd take them along. I mean, if I had a Romance with Ashley (not so on my PC play through), then I would no doubt still have feelings for her, and being close to her would likely rekindle that. And ofcourse Now they are with me physically, so they are obviously with me spiritually, or in plan or whatever the term would be, but the point is Ashley/Kaidan (for me Ash, I never let a girl die, even if I am romancing Liara) are here now, and that's what matters.

[Siansonea]

MyOpinionSucks wrote...

But we're talking about their reunion in Mass Effect 3. Where, presumably, they've been filled in on what Shepard's done and why he did it. I've said numerous times that I completely understand their reaction on Horizon, but only because they weren't in possession of all the salient facts.

My point is that from a broader perspective (the player's and by extension Shepard's) the VS was in the wrong. Once they're clued into that perspective in or before ME3 I'm pretty confident they won't be calling him a traitor.

(NB: I use the word traitor because as far as I'm aware it's the correct noun for someone who betrays something. English isn't my first language so forgive me if I've got that wrong.)

But that's the thing, the VS isn't retroactively "wrong" because they didn't have all the facts on Horizon. What could they have been expected to think? Sure, once the VS knows more about what's going on, they're likely to understand Shepard's decision better and they're more likely to let the matter of Shepard's working with Cerberus drop. But there is no call for a big apology from the VS. Not unless Shepard apologizes first. But if in ME3 the VS spontaneously goes into some major butt-kissing routine to appease BSN members looking to fulfill a revenge fantasy, I will gag. If Horizon is referenced at all, it should be brief, and to the point. There is nothing that the VS said that they really need to apologize for, in my opinion. Paragon Shepard should apologize to them. And Renegade Shepard can just continue to be a douche, since that's what she does best. Neutral Shepard can just ignore the whole thing.

Let's not forget, It's still not clear WHAT Cerberus' true agenda is. I'm not buying that Cerberus—after years of sick experiments, murder, and political machinations—has suddenly become an altruistic organization with no hidden agenda. Cerberus may have helped Shepard stop the Collectors, and they may have the same goal of stopping the Reapers, but that's not the whole story, and Shepard knows it. And we know that the Cerberus Light Switch has been tripped again in ME3, and they are The Enemy again. So the Cerberus apologists are really going to have to scramble when that can of worms opens up in ME3.

[Ryzaki]

spiros9110 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
I don't "have to admit" any such thing. Just because the game railroaded my Shepard into happily signing on with Cerberus doesn't mean I'm drinking the Cerberus Kool-Aid. If I wasn't limited by the game's ridiculously circumscribed options, I know Shepard could have found a way to get what she wanted out of Cerberus without being the Illusive Man's pet Spectre.

I agree with most of your points on the whole VS topic, but I'm just curious as to how you would of found anything without Cerberus's help.

Shep wouldn't have. 

Even if he/she miraclously managed to get the data from FP and Veetor before Jacob/Miranda did (highly unlikely) he/she would've been doomed during the CS mission either he/she wouldn't have gone on board and realized he/she needed the IFF or he/she would've gone on board and then been screwed. 

...That's assuming of course he/she got the seeker swarm data ahead of time which...wouldn't have happened without Cerberus help. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 août 2011 - 08:30 .

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...


Of course you don't "get a damn". You're a Renegade. "The ends justify the means". Right? Well, not everyone hops onto that slippery slope so eagerly. Some of us see Cerberus as a court of last resort, not Plan A.

You're right.  For a paragon, Cerberus is certainly not Plan A.  Or even Plan B for that matter.  In fact, they're just above "lie down and die"  For paragon Shep to join Cerberus, they'd have to be literally the only game in town that can stop the Collectors.  And they were, even if the game screwed up the order in which that should be discovered.

Now:
1)  We've established that Cerberus is a "court of last resort"
2) Shepard is down to "last resort" resources
3) The VS would presumably know how paragon Shepard would react to the idea of working with Cerberus, what with working closely with Shepard for some time and seeing demonstrations of where his/her loyalties are.
4) VS sees paragon Shepard working alongside Cerberus
5) Therefore, Shepard ...

...has forgotten where his/her loyalties are???

And as for what the VS witnessed—I'm pretty sure being in stasis the whole time limited the scope of his/her observation. Let's see: Giant ship, a cloud of bugs, a sting on the neck, then cut to the smoking battlefield, several corpses of husks and Collectors (if the VS even knows what Collectors look like, or what they even are). And, just like the Alliance suspected might be the case, Cerberus is on the scene. Seems awfully coincidental. In fact, it's TOO coincidental. I'm expected to believe that Cerberus had nothing to do with the attack, just because it looks like they fought the aliens trying to abduct the colonists? Maybe that's what I'm supposed to think? Where Cerberus is concerned, I wouldn't put anything past them. Maybe this was an elaborate setup to get Cerberus in good with the Alliance. After all, these are the same people who put a bogus distress beacon on Edolus to lure Alliance Marines to a thresher maw nest, getting all the Marines killed. And for what? Who knows with Cerberus? In any case, I'm not going to trust anyone with a Cerberus nametag to give me any credible information, even if one of them looks like my onetime CO, Commander Shepard. 

Given where the VS was when stung, they were right by where the ship landed (it's one reason why people question why the VS wasn't the first to be taken) and is clearly right out in the open.  He or she would have a pretty good view of bug-eyed aliens leaving the ship and coming back with pods, presumably full of people.  

They might or might not have seen Shepard fighting the colonies, but would have a pretty clear view of the GARDIAN tower coming online and driving off the cruiser.  The only people active who could have done that was Shepard and his crew or Delann.  I'm pretty sure Delann can be eliminated as a suspect:lol:

Cerberus setup?  Not a very good one, if Shepard says "I don't answer to Cerberus"  Kinda defeats the purpose of making Cerberus look good...