1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Goneaviking wrote...

Yes, a period of months is plenty of time to become attached to someone and gain a lot of trust in them. But I don't think that's enough time to establish a nuanced understanding of someone, particularly if during that time you're focused on one specific goal above all others.

When you look at the sort of things that Cerberus gets up to, then abducting colonists for experimentations is right up their alley. If you look at what Shepards doing it does seem to have some potential area for him to develop an appreciation for their objective given that they're established in ME1 as having the objective of creating a supersoldier. That's just the kind of thing that might drive someone with such a desperate objective as Shepard to get in bed with a pretty nasty organisation so I think it's understandable that people including the VS might come to believe that Shepard would be willing to defect for Cerberus if given the opportunity.

Potential for renegade Sheps, sure, but a paragon outs a stop to Cerberus operations.  Violently.  And consistently.  And a crew member who hangs out with Shep while this is happening over several months would note this.

It's reasonable to assume, as others have, that the VS saw enough to know that Shepard and friends fought the Collectors off on Horizon. I'm not certain that they did but I'm willing to go along with the assumption, but given Cerberus reputation and the VS experiences with them, it's not unreasonable to suspect they're involved in some (but potentially not all) of the disappearances in the Terminus System. It's also entirely possible that Cerberus just happened to be in the area on completely unrelated business and happened to get caught up in the Collectors' plot, after all it's not as though they'd just allow themselves to be abducted by aliens.

But after years of knowledge of Cerberus vicious unpredictability then a few hours on Horizon isn't going to about-face an entrenched belief about the organisation immediately, and given that Shepard's desperation is well known to the VS I don't think their assessment is unreasonable.

It's not doing an about face on Cerberus I question.  the VS has witnessed plenty of evidence to know just how ruthless and evil they are.  And it's entirely reasonable to suspect Cerberus had something to do with the attack.  In fact, they did, if not in the way one would normally think.  But they've also seen plenty of evidence to show what Shepard thinks of Cerberus as well.  Recall, everything the VS saw concerning Kahoku, Toombs, the rachni, etc, Shep saw too.  Shep led the charge, in fact.  So to see Shep now fighting side by side with Cerberus operatives should raise curiosity.

Heck, Shep's lack of ability to answer should have the VS thinking "Mind control!" before "Betrayal!"

[paul165]

Siansonea II wrote... A whole load of stuff about Cerberus .

And this was relevant to the point how? Yes, yes, yes Cerberus is evil m'kay been there had that conversation several times.

Yes, Shepard could have volunteered more information in the initial exchange but perhaps they were shocked to see the VS, perhaps they were cautious, perhaps they wanted to start the conversation on a friendly note before getting on to the 'really depressing aliens are coming to destroy us stuff'. We don't know and more to the point neither does the VS because they don't ask any further questions, they don't allow the conversation to be anything other than about Cerberus (much like your post above really) and they are obviously not willing to listen to anything Shepard has to say.

I am touched by your loyalty to the Alliance, or at least the loyalty you ascribe to the VS even as my Shepard finds it somewhat naive, but part of being a good soldier is being able to adapt to changing circumstances - something the VS obviously failed to do on Horizon.

There's a cheap joke about honouring the fallen in there given what happened (or rather didn't) to the SR1 and Shepard themselves but I shall resist the temptation


Shepard is claiming they have risen from the grave as in, you know, conquered DEATH. Don't you think that is a tad more important than which bunch of murdering sods is signing the paycheque this week?

Could seriously do with an answer to that one because your position ?the position of the VS? is that Shepard is working for Cerberus and therefore anything the VS does in response is justified be it endangering lives (seeker swarm mods), gross unprofessionalism (failure to gather intel), or ignoring that if what Shepard has said is true it has consequences for humanity that make First Contact look like a normal day.

If the VS only sees Cerberus then any attempt at restoring trust in ME3 in meaningless because my Shepard would never be able to trust anyone with such a flawed sense of priorities.

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...
It's an open forum, Sunshine. If you want to have a dialog with a specific person, that's what PMs are for. But whatever, it's easier for you to simply dismiss my points as "tangents" than to actually think about what I'm saying (which is directly related to the Horizon exchange). You've got your mad on, and you've stopped doing anything but react. Have fun with that.

Uh huh. And the condescending tangenets continue. Oh by all means do comment. I will continue to dismiss your answers when they have little or nothing to do with what you quoted. 

As for mad on...you've had it on far longer than I have sweet cheeks. 

But you keep going on and missing the point. 

What I was talking about wasn't even related to the VS reaction but what was in Shep's realm of possibility without working with Cerberus. But that was obviously too complicated for you to understand. Or maybe you got distracted by the word cerberus and assumed someone was attacking your precious VS. I dunno. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 août 2011 - 10:40 .

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...
Blah blah blah, it's all the VS' fault. Yeah, like Shepard tried so hard to explain the situation. She's the victim! <_< Like brushing off the Cerberus issue was EVER the appropriate way to handle that. Once again, it all boils down to the fact that you guys think that working with Cerberus is "not that bad". Word of advice: Don't ever join the military, because when you change allegiance on a whim, the military organization will probably not take too kindly to that. Especially if your new pals have a history of killing your old pals. Just some friendly advice.

I didn't get "It's all his fault" from that post at all.  He even noted that Shep's responses were terrible.  But he also noted that Shep still seemed to volunteer more information than the VS asked about.  Just another example of how both parties failed the scene

Shepard's lucky it was the VS on Horizon and not me. If you all think that "you betrayed everything we stood for" was harsh, you all would faint dead away when I gave MY schpiel to Shepard. It would be something along the lines of "You traitorous b¡tch, how could you ever stoop to working with Cerberus after all they've done? After Admiral Kahoku, after Akuze, after Edolus, after Binthu, after Nepheron, after hearing Corporal Toombs story? I don't know you at all Shepard, but I do know one thing, there will be HELL to pay, and I'm already preparing the invoice. I'm sure you've got some excuse that sounds really good in your head, you've never been really good at introspection. But I'm not buying it. You go have fun with your new friends, try not to kill too many Alliance Marines in your spare time. And if you ever find yourself in Council space, look me up. Maybe we can catch up on all the fun vivisection experiments your Cerberus buddies have going on. You can show me all your lampshades made from human skin. But if I don't see you before then, I'm sure, I'll see you in court, traitor."

I'm thinking many a romantic comedy would turn into a Shakespearean tragedy about halfway through if you were at the director's chair 

"I saw you kissing another woman!"  Blamblamblam!

Call me inflexible, but if someone murders a member of my family, I don't invite them to dinner. And if I'm an Alliance soldier, then the Alliance is my family. I protect them, and they protect me. I honor those who died in the line of duty. I do not give comfort or aid to those who kill and torture my brothers and sisters. But hey, if you all want to sugar coat that to make it an easier pill to swallow, you can all go right ahead. But I know where my loyalty lies. And it's not with Cerberus.

Umm, Shepard did protect an Alliance soldier.  The VS.  He protected a human colony.  One that owed the Alliance nothing and frankly didn't want Alliance help.  He stopped the aliens from carrying them off to the Enkindlers-knows-what kind of fate (okay at this point we do know, but still)

The Alliance is your family?  Admiral Kahoku?  Yeah Shepard killed the people that killed him.  Plus he destroyed three or four other bases to make sure.  Akuze?  Toombs took care of most of them, but Shepard made sure he got out of there alive to testify.  Nephron?  That's the Alliance listening post, right?  Shepard protected the marines holding out against the rachni there, dug out the nests there too, left over from Cerberus experiments

Where do we see any evidence that Shepard did anything but accept Cerberus help to defend a colony?  Where do we, or the VS, see Shepard performing experiments on helpless victims (well, aside from choosing the renegade ending for Overlord)?

What kind of rumors were being spread by TIM anyway?  That seeing Shepard with Cerberus personell, acting more like what Shepard does rather than like Cerberus,  wipes away all the good that was done like it never carried over existed to begin with?
 

Modifié par iakus, 09 août 2011 - 10:42 .

[paul165]

Just for amusement Siansonea:

A response to the rant you posted from Shepard's point of view - note this does not reflect the views of my Shepard and my actual points are contained in the post above.

Renegade Shep! Then I guess I should save myself some trouble then shouldn't I? **BANG**

Neutral Shep! I should go

Paragon (ish) Shep! Do not presume to judge me what I have sacrificed, what I have given to stop the Reapers. I sacrificed everything for the Alliance, I died for the Alliance and they left me and my crew to rot on an icy hellhole!

When I woke up I'm the hands of my enemies and yet they are the only ones not content to let the galaxy burn. So yes I am working with the enemies of the Alliance in order to save humanity because the Alliance is the servant of humanity not the master and if that has changed since I have been gone then it is no longer an Alliance I would serve.

As for a trial I look forward to meeting you at one so that you can explain how you had failed pathetically, yet again, to defend people in your charge and, yet again, you had to rely on those more skilled than yourself to protect those you should have died to shield.

Goodbye Chief, I hope the promotion helps you sleep at night when all those you have failed to protect visit your dreams.

Again this is merely a, hopefully interesting, response to the posted VS rant designed only to prove that both Shepard and the VS can pull that stunt and is not a serious analysis of my views of Horizon or the VS.

[Ryzaki]

I will die laughing if one of Shep's response to the VS trying to talk to him/her is "I should go."

[paul165]

iakus wrote...

I didn't get "It's all his fault" from that post at all.  He even noted that Shep's responses were terrible.  But he also noted that Shep still seemed to volunteer more information than the VS asked about.  Just another example of how both parties failed the scene

Thank you! I'm so glad someone got what I wanted from it anyway.:happy:

>>I will die laughing if one of Shep's response to the VS trying to talk to him/her is "I should go." <<

It has to be done doesn't it. Probably result in losing loyalty but still totally worth it.

>>wipes away all the good that was done like it never carried over existed to begin with<<

The odd thing is given the conversations and news items the Cerberus quest line does carry over (see the, very interesting, conversation with Miranda on Cerberus' monsters); but yes I know exactly what you mean it was an ideal time to have an import bonus do something other than a 2 minute cameo and yet....

Modifié par paul165, 09 août 2011 - 10:55 .

[Iakus]

paul165 wrote...

iakus wrote...

I didn't get "It's all his fault" from that post at all.  He even noted that Shep's responses were terrible.  But he also noted that Shep still seemed to volunteer more information than the VS asked about.  Just another example of how both parties failed the scene

Thank you! I'm so glad someone got what I wanted from it anyway.:happy:

I may come across as a Shepard apologist sometimes, but that's only because the defense of the VS seems  to be so...enthusiastic...on this thread.  In truth I hold little sympathy for either.  The whole scene is made of fail and the writers should feel bad about it. 

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...

Just for amusement Siansonea:

A response to the rant you posted from Shepard's point of view - note this does not reflect the views of my Shepard and my actual points are contained in the post above.

Renegade Shep! Then I guess I should save myself some trouble then shouldn't I? **BANG**

Neutral Shep! I should go

Paragon (ish) Shep! Do not presume to judge me what I have sacrificed, what I have given to stop the Reapers. I sacrificed everything for the Alliance, I died for the Alliance and they left me and my crew to rot on an icy hellhole!

When I woke up I'm the hands of my enemies and yet they are the only ones not content to let the galaxy burn. So yes I am working with the enemies of the Alliance in order to save humanity because the Alliance is the servant of humanity not the master and if that has changed since I have been gone then it is no longer an Alliance I would serve.

As for a trial I look forward to meeting you at one so that you can explain how you had failed pathetically, yet again, to defend people in your charge and, yet again, you had to rely on those more skilled than yourself to protect those you should have died to shield.

Goodbye Chief, I hope the promotion helps you sleep at night when all those you have failed to protect visit your dreams.

Again this is merely a, hopefully interesting, response to the posted VS rant designed only to prove that both Shepard and the VS can pull that stunt and is not a serious analysis of my views of Horizon or the VS.

At least in this scenario Shepard shows some backbone. I'd respect her a lot more if she did something besides stand there and blankly and laconically state how "not awful" Cerberus is. I'd respect her a lot more if she would hit back.

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote... A whole load of stuff about Cerberus .

And this was relevant to the point how? Yes, yes, yes Cerberus is evil m'kay been there had that conversation several times.

Yes, Shepard could have volunteered more information in the initial exchange but perhaps they were shocked to see the VS, perhaps they were cautious, perhaps they wanted to start the conversation on a friendly note before getting on to the 'really depressing aliens are coming to destroy us stuff'. We don't know and more to the point neither does the VS because they don't ask any further questions, they don't allow the conversation to be anything other than about Cerberus (much like your post above really) and they are obviously not willing to listen to anything Shepard has to say.

I am touched by your loyalty to the Alliance, or at least the loyalty you ascribe to the VS even as my Shepard finds it somewhat naive, but part of being a good soldier is being able to adapt to changing circumstances - something the VS obviously failed to do on Horizon.

There's a cheap joke about honouring the fallen in there given what happened (or rather didn't) to the SR1 and Shepard themselves but I shall resist the temptation


Shepard is claiming they have risen from the grave as in, you know, conquered DEATH. Don't you think that is a tad more important than which bunch of murdering sods is signing the paycheque this week?

This is what gets me. Why would Shepard expect anyone to believe such an unbelievable story? Oh wait, this is the gal who expects people to just look the other way when she shows up with Cerberus.

I keep hammering the Cerberus point because it's THE WHOLE POINT. The reason the VS shuts down is because of Cerberus. The rest of you act like that's so darned unreasonable, that the VS should just "put that aside" and ask Shepard a series of very insightful questions, while she passively gives those answers. You all act like this is a situation in which Shepard has some kind of higher moral ground or something. Why Shepard should be given the latitude you all believe she should have is beyond me. She disappeared two years ago and was presumed dead. And two years later she's working with Cerberus. And she's offering some frankly preposterous story about being unconscious that whole time. And people are just supposed to believe her because she did some great stuff two years ago. I'm sorry, but people just don't evaluate Shepard from any sort of an objective standpoint. If you were playing another game, and your player character ran into a character who makes the same claims that Shepard is making, you'd shut her down faster than you can say "Renegade Interrupt". But because it's Shepard, and because we know from our godlike point of view that Shepard had no real choice but to join Cerberus, we characterize the VS as the one who has overreacted and screwed up the Horizon reunion. But the VS is perfectly justified to be angry and confused by Shepard being there with Cerberus. And every time anyone tries to brush that aside and say "look at the big picture" I will bring it back to this. Cerberus IS the big picture, from what the VS can see. Everything is interconnected. Just because you witness what looks like Cerberus performing a good deed doesn't wash away all of the heinous deeds you've witnessed them doing. And if two people are standing toe-to-toe and one of them has information, I think the burden falls on THAT person to make the other party understand the situation. But everyone gives Shepard a pass for standing there in Derp Mode while the VS grapples with the revelation that once-trusted Shepard is a Cerberus cheerleader now. Yes, blame the one who DOESN'T know what's going on for not asking, don't blame the one who DOES know for not telling.

Could seriously do with an answer to that one because your position ?the position of the VS? is that Shepard is working for Cerberus and therefore anything the VS does in response is justified be it endangering lives (seeker swarm mods), gross unprofessionalism (failure to gather intel), or ignoring that if what Shepard has said is true it has consequences for humanity that make First Contact look like a normal day.

If the VS only sees Cerberus then any attempt at restoring trust in ME3 in meaningless because my Shepard would never be able to trust anyone with such a flawed sense of priorities.

Well, I don't doubt that the VS stance on Cerberus won't be nearly as inflexible as my own. They've already shown much more discretion in the matter than I ever would have. And of course, NOW the VS actually DOES have some information.

And I still blame Anderson a LOT for allowing this situation to play out the way it did. There is no reason for Anderson to keep Shepard's association with Cerberus a secret from the VS, or the information that Shepard is alive. Hello, the VS is on Horizon investigating Cerberus. Don't you think your investigator ought to have all the facts? Stupid Anderson. But no one's going to b¡tchslap Anderson for his stupidity, because he's "nice" to Shepard. And that's clearly the only thing people care about.

[paul165]

>>I may come across as a Shepard apologist sometimes, but that's only because the defense of the VS seems to be so...enthusiastic...on this thread. In truth I hold little sympathy for either. <<

I agree Horizon was a total disaster and have said so before. Also like you in this thread I tend to argue Shephard's corner more than the VS' more as a function of the responses blaming Shepard for everything - had the thread instead attracted the Shepard is perfect crowd I suspect I would be making different arguments - or, more likely, just leaving in disgust as 'Shepard is awesome' leaves little room for discussion.

>>At least in this scenario Shepard shows some backbone. I'd respect her a lot more if she did something besides stand there and blankly and laconically state how "not awful" Cerberus is. I'd respect her a lot more if she would hit back.<<

Really? Yikes!

I mean thanks but still yikes! The somewhat ambitiously named paragon! rant was pretty much an attempt to hit every weak spot I think Ashley has. If this had been the dialogue option in the scene I think I would have been screaming at the screen.

[Siansonea]

Now, if I was Shepard...

"Look Kaidan, I know how this looks. Believe me, I know how this looks. And I don't blame you for thinking I've turned my back on the Alliance. I guess technically I have. But don't think for a second that Cerberus and I are best pals. See this attractive brunette at my elbow? Her name is Miranda Lawson. Miranda claims to have rebuilt me after I died at Alchera. I don't know what the real story is, but I do know I have a two-year gap in my memory. But don't think for a second I trust her. Not. One. Bit. I'm sure she thinks that once my usefulness to Cerberus is over, she'll quietly dispose of me. She has another think coming. She thinks she'll get the drop on me, but she won't. I fully expect that I will forced to kill her sooner rather than later. Smile for my friend Kaidan, Miranda."

"Garrus is here because of me. Joker is here because of me. Dr. Chakwas is here because of me. None of us condones or supports Cerberus. But right now we have a common goal, and as long as that's the case I'll hold my nose and accept their equipment and incomplete intel. But know this. As SOON as they are of no more use to me, they will be gone. As in, forever. No more Cerberus. And I tell you this in front of my Cerberus handler, and I DARE her to say one word to me about it. Kaidan, don't ever doubt my loyalty, because you have it, the Alliance has it, and the Council has it. Not Cerberus. And just to demonstrate my good faith, here is EVERYTHING from my omni-tool and I'll be sending you all of the intel we've gathered so far. Talk it over with Anderson. Talk it over with Tali. If, after you've done that, you still have concerns about me working with Cerberus, I'll understand, and we'll talk about it. But farewell for now, we've both got a lot of work to do, and time is short."

[Estelindis]

Siansonea II wrote...

Now, if I was Shepard...

"Look Kaidan, I know how this looks. Believe me, I know how this looks. And I don't blame you for thinking I've turned my back on the Alliance. I guess technically I have. But don't think for a second that Cerberus and I are best pals. See this attractive brunette at my elbow? Her name is Miranda Lawson. Miranda claims to have rebuilt me after I died at Alchera. I don't know what the real story is, but I do know I have a two-year gap in my memory. But don't think for a second I trust her. Not. One. Bit."

You know, I have the same attitude towards Ceberus, but I think Shepard would be a bit smarter than to say that when Miranda's standing right there.

The way I see it, even a Shepard who doesn't trust Cerberus has certain obligations towards the members of Cerberus under her command.  If she makes the decision to work with Cerberus (which every Shepard does, even though many players wish there was another way), then she accepts everything that comes with a position of authority.  She may not trust them, but she will do her best to make sure they can trust her as a commander.  In a sense, she takes on a certain responsibility for them - this is especially awkward given how she may strongly disagree with their past actions and present methods, but at a moral level I don't think it can be avoided.

Looking past the bad writing, this is what I think would make any attempt to explain Shepard's position to Kaidan or Ashley extremely difficult.

Modifié par Estelindis, 09 août 2011 - 11:45 .

[Ben800000]

Son, we live in a universe that has Reapers, and those Reapers have to be fought by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Alenko? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Toombs, and you curse Cerberus. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Toombs's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in Cerberus, you need me in Cerberus . . .

[Captain_Obvious]

Ben800000 wrote...

Son, we live in a universe that has Reapers, and those Reapers have to be fought by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Alenko? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Toombs, and you curse Cerberus. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Toombs's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in Cerberus, you need me in Cerberus . . .

I see what you did there. 



All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. 
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. 
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. 

[paul165]

Siansonea II wrote...


This is what gets me. Why would Shepard expect anyone to believe such an unbelievable story? Oh wait, this is the gal who expects people to just look the other way when she shows up with Cerberus.

Well yes why does Shepard expect people to believe it after all Shepard is a capable of producing a much better lie than that so either Shepard is channelling her inner three year old 'I didn't eat the cookies, honest!' or something really trippy is going on. Maybe the local Alliance rep should investigate? I do not require belief, I require curiousity - hell amusement at the feeble story or contempt for the obvious lie would be perfectly acceptable as long as it allows Shepard and the VS to converse. What happened instead was that the VS appears to believe them and just doesn't care because Cerberus did it.

I keep hammering the Cerberus point because it's THE WHOLE POINT. The reason the VS shuts down is because of Cerberus. The rest of you act like that's so darned unreasonable, that the VS should just "put that aside" and ask Shepard a series of very insightful questions, while she passively gives those answers.

Frankly that's the best understanding of my viewpoint yet. So yes I require that the VS 'puts that aside' and ask questions of a suspected traitor. Why do I require that? Because distasteful as it may be that is their job and personal feelings that affect the performance of the job are a liability.

[OT] As a real life example I used to work in healthcare and one day the job required me to interview a wife beater in order to improve his medical treatment after his wife got tired of being smacked around and knifed him. On a personal level I despised him and thought the only mistake the wife made was not aiming a bit higher nontheless the job required that I be polite and professional whilst he complained about us, the police who arrested him and made vile threats about his wife. [/OT]

You all act like this is a situation in which Shepard has some kind of higher moral ground or something

I don't think generalisations help here. Some people undoubtedly do, iakus I think would argue the toss and I feel that given everyone is standing in the mud anyway it's a bit late to start throwing stones. Apologies for the terrible mixed metaphor it's getting late.

Why Shepard should be given the latitude you all believe she should have is beyond me. She disappeared two years ago and was presumed dead. And two years later she's working with Cerberus. And she's offering some frankly preposterous story about being unconscious that whole time. And people are just supposed to believe her because she did some great stuff two years ago.

I do not require the VS believes anything least of all Shepard. I require that the VS acts as a rational adult and investigates why Shepard - or the person who looks kinda like Shepard who can tell through the armour? took the actions that they had.  In short I require that the VS do what they were assigned to do when they were posted to Horizon and investigate.

Hell Shepard is an ideal source for such an investigation - and what does the VS do waste all that good will in proclaiming moral superiority!

I'm sorry, but people just don't evaluate Shepard from any sort of an objective standpoint. If you were playing another game, and your player character ran into a character who makes the same claims that Shepard is making, you'd shut her down faster than you can say "Renegade Interrupt".

But the VS doesn't evaluate from an objective viewpoint either that's half the problem.

But because it's Shepard, and because we know from our godlike point of view that Shepard had no real choice but to join Cerberus, we characterize the VS as the one who has overreacted and screwed up the Horizon reunion. But the VS is perfectly justified to be angry and confused by Shepard being there with Cerberus. And every time anyone tries to brush that aside and say "look at the big picture" I will bring it back to this. Cerberus IS the big picture, from what the VS can see.

To get it away from Cerberus for a second here's a translation of what you just argued

Agent K: Agent X you're back! Everyone thought you were dead
Agent X: I was dead but its okay the IRA brought me back from the dead because Cthulu have made an alliance with the Fae to destroy the planet!
Agent K: You're working for the IRA! You traitor!

I mean really . And before you say it, yes, exaggerated for effect but not by very much. Shepard really does claim something as barmy as that and the VS really does completely brush it off in favour of Cerberus

Everything is interconnected. Just because you witness what looks like Cerberus performing a good deed doesn't wash away all of the heinous deeds you've witnessed them doing. And if two people are standing toe-to-toe and one of them has information, I think the burden falls on THAT person to make the other party understand the situation. But everyone gives Shepard a pass for standing there in Derp Mode while the VS grapples with the revelation that once-trusted Shepard is a Cerberus cheerleader now. Yes, blame the one who DOESN'T know what's going on for not asking, don't blame the one who DOES know for not telling.

If the VS had stood there and gone 'huh?' then sure blame Shepard 100% but they don't after the initial terrible exchange the VS is not listening anymore regardless of what Shepard says they just start making assumptions that at best are overly optimistic and miss vital information as a result.

Well, I don't doubt that the VS stance on Cerberus won't be nearly as inflexible as my own. They've already shown much more discretion in the matter than I ever would have. And of course, NOW the VS actually DOES have some information.

Ah, thanks.

And I still blame Anderson a LOT for allowing this situation to play out the way it did. There is no reason for Anderson to keep Shepard's association with Cerberus a secret from the VS, or the information that Shepard is alive. Hello, the VS is on Horizon investigating Cerberus. Don't you think your investigator ought to have all the facts? Stupid Anderson. But no one's going to b¡tchslap Anderson for his stupidity, because he's "nice" to Shepard. And that's clearly the only thing people care about.

I blame Anderson for loads of things - especially Retribution **shudder don't get me started**. I don't mostly blame Anderson for Horizon because he wasn't there. Unless of course he knowingly provided false intel to the VS in which case then yes I do blame him.

[paul165]

>>The way I see it, even a Shepard who doesn't trust Cerberus has certain obligations towards the members of Cerberus under her command<<

Yes agreed - certainly by Horizon Shepard has an obilgation to protect her crew every last human supremacist, mass murdering one of them. After all they fight in her service.

>>Looking past the bad writing, this is what I think would make any attempt to explain Shepard's position to Kaidan or Ashley extremely difficult.<<

And won't it just make ME3 fun! Especially if they try and arrest Miranda or - even worse Jack.

[Siansonea]

Estelindis wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Now, if I was Shepard...

"Look Kaidan, I know how this looks. Believe me, I know how this looks. And I don't blame you for thinking I've turned my back on the Alliance. I guess technically I have. But don't think for a second that Cerberus and I are best pals. See this attractive brunette at my elbow? Her name is Miranda Lawson. Miranda claims to have rebuilt me after I died at Alchera. I don't know what the real story is, but I do know I have a two-year gap in my memory. But don't think for a second I trust her. Not. One. Bit."

You know, I have the same attitude towards Ceberus, but I think Shepard would be a bit smarter than to say that when Miranda's standing right there.

The way I see it, even a Shepard who doesn't trust Cerberus has certain obligations towards the members of Cerberus under her command.  If she makes the decision to work with Cerberus (which every Shepard does, even though many players wish there was another way), then she accepts everything that comes with a position of authority.  She may not trust them, but she will do her best to make sure they can trust her as a commander.  In a sense, she takes on a certain responsibility for them - this is especially awkward given how she may strongly disagree with their past actions and present methods, but at a moral level I don't think it can be avoided.

Looking past the bad writing, this is what I think would make any attempt to explain Shepard's position to Kaidan or Ashley extremely difficult.

I'm just saying if "I" was Shepard, I wouldn't make any pretense about blowing up Cerberus. I'd make sure Timmy, Miranda and Jacob have the obituary list of all the people who thought they could put one over on me. Miranda wouldn't be stupid enough to think I trust her anyway, nor would TIM. So why be coy?

[Siansonea]

Ben800000 wrote...

Son, we live in a universe that has Reapers, and those Reapers have to be fought by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Alenko? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Toombs, and you curse Cerberus. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Toombs's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in Cerberus, you need me in Cerberus . . .

Can you handle the truth?

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Now, if I was Shepard...

"Look Kaidan, I know how this looks. Believe me, I know how this looks. And I don't blame you for thinking I've turned my back on the Alliance. I guess technically I have. But don't think for a second that Cerberus and I are best pals. See this attractive brunette at my elbow? Her name is Miranda Lawson. Miranda claims to have rebuilt me after I died at Alchera. I don't know what the real story is, but I do know I have a two-year gap in my memory. But don't think for a second I trust her. Not. One. Bit. I'm sure she thinks that once my usefulness to Cerberus is over, she'll quietly dispose of me. She has another think coming. She thinks she'll get the drop on me, but she won't. I fully expect that I will forced to kill her sooner rather than later. Smile for my friend Kaidan, Miranda."

"Garrus is here because of me. Joker is here because of me. Dr. Chakwas is here because of me. None of us condones or supports Cerberus. But right now we have a common goal, and as long as that's the case I'll hold my nose and accept their equipment and incomplete intel. But know this. As SOON as they are of no more use to me, they will be gone. As in, forever. No more Cerberus. And I tell you this in front of my Cerberus handler, and I DARE her to say one word to me about it. Kaidan, don't ever doubt my loyalty, because you have it, the Alliance has it, and the Council has it. Not Cerberus. And just to demonstrate my good faith, here is EVERYTHING from my omni-tool and I'll be sending you all of the intel we've gathered so far. Talk it over with Anderson. Talk it over with Tali. If, after you've done that, you still have concerns about me working with Cerberus, I'll understand, and we'll talk about it. But farewell for now, we've both got a lot of work to do, and time is short."

Pretty good.  Wish there was an opportunity to say that.

One change I'd make though.

I'd be telling a version of that to TIM's holographic face right after Freedom's Progress (or, even better, after returning from the Citadel after being snubbed by the Council) 

[paul165]

Here comes Johnny!

Cough. Anyway...

Interestingly I wouldn't - I'd wait and let them think I trusted them right until I spat in their face at the worst possible moment. Wait; what am I talking about that's what I did do - ah the post SM TIM conversation good times.

[Ryzaki]

Oh god telling TIM screw you was the highlight of ME2.

"Joker cut this channel."

I'd be awesome if Shepard could pretend to be buddy buddy with the VS andthe alliance and then at the end of the game steal the Normandy get the call and then just say it.

[Estelindis]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm just saying if "I" was Shepard, I wouldn't make any pretense about blowing up Cerberus. I'd make sure Timmy, Miranda and Jacob have the obituary list of all the people who thought they could put one over on me. Miranda wouldn't be stupid enough to think I trust her anyway, nor would TIM. So why be coy?

Fair enough.  It does seem as if open opposition to everything Cerberus represents, while still "working" for Cerberus, would be a path to another early grave.  I kept expecting that when my Shep forwarded the Cerberus info to the Alliance that it would come back to bite her in the ass.  After all, EDI handles everything on the ship communications-wise (it all seems to go through her, one way or another), and she spends most of the game working under limitations imposed by Cerberus.  I will never understand why TIM is so surprised when Paragon Shepard blows up the base, if said Shep has never given any indication of actually liking him or doing what he wants (when she's given the choice in-game, anyway). 

Basically, for a deeper and more realistic game, I'd expect that kind of open opposition to end in disaster for Shep.  But because this is Mass Effect, the hero pretty much can't lose.  (Well, not unless she has less than two squaddies left at the end of the game, but I honestly can never understand how anyone would get that ending unless they were aiming for it.)

[Siansonea]

[quote]paul165 wrote...

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
This is what gets me. Why would Shepard expect anyone to believe such an unbelievable story? Oh wait, this is the gal who expects people to just look the other way when she shows up with Cerberus. [/quote]

Well yes why does Shepard expect people to believe it after all Shepard is a capable of producing a much better lie than that so either Shepard is channelling her inner three year old 'I didn't eat the cookies, honest!' or something really trippy is going on. Maybe the local Alliance rep should investigate? I do not require belief, I require curiousity - hell amusement at the feeble story or contempt for the obvious lie would be perfectly acceptable as long as it allows Shepard and the VS to converse. What happened instead was that the VS appears to believe them and just doesn't care because Cerberus did it.[/quote]

See, this is the sticking point to me. A lot of this type of argument strikes me like “yeah Shepard is there with terrorists who killed Alliance people and doesn’t explain anything all that well, blah blah blah, BUT KAIDAN DIDN’T ASK ANY QUESTIONS!!!! STFU ASHLEY!!!!” Everyone gives Shepard a huge amount of leeway, almost nothing is inexcusable, but the VS simply not showing enough curiosity is a hanging offense.

[quote][quote]I keep hammering the Cerberus point because it's THE WHOLE POINT. The reason the VS shuts down is because of Cerberus. The rest of you act like that's so darned unreasonable, that the VS should just "put that aside" and ask Shepard a series of very insightful questions, while she passively gives those answers.[/quote]

Frankly that's the best understanding of my viewpoint yet. So yes I require that the VS 'puts that aside' and ask questions of a suspected traitor. Why do I require that? Because distasteful as it may be that is their job and personal feelings that affect the performance of the job are a liability.

[OT] As a real life example I used to work in healthcare and one day the job required me to interview a wife beater in order to improve his medical treatment after his wife got tired of being smacked around and knifed him. On a personal level I despised him and thought the only mistake the wife made was not aiming a bit higher nontheless the job required that I be polite and professional whilst he complained about us, the police who arrested him and made vile threats about his wife. [/OT]

[quote] You all act like this is a situation in which Shepard has some kind of higher moral ground or something[/quote]

I don't think generalisations help here. Some people undoubtedly do, iakus I think would argue the toss and I feel that given everyone is standing in the mud anyway it's a bit late to start throwing stones. Apologies for the terrible mixed metaphor it's getting late. [/quote]

“Everyone is standing in the mud?” How is the VS not being completely aboveboard? If they’re both standing in the mud, Kaidan and Ashley might have to wipe down their boots a bit, but Shepard is up to her neck. This is not a case of two people who are “both in the wrong”, one of these two people is very clearly in a much more sketchy situation.

[quote][quote] Why Shepard should be given the latitude you all believe she should have is beyond me. She disappeared two years ago and was presumed dead. And two years later she's working with Cerberus. And she's offering some frankly preposterous story about being unconscious that whole time. And people are just supposed to believe her because she did some great stuff two years ago.[/quote]

I do not require the VS believes anything least of all Shepard. I require that the VS acts as a rational adult and investigates why Shepard - or the person who looks kinda like Shepard who can tell through the armour? took the actions that they had. In short I require that the VS do what they were assigned to do when they were posted to Horizon and investigate.

Hell Shepard is an ideal source for such an investigation - and what does the VS do waste all that good will in proclaiming moral superiority![/quote]

I agree. The VS could have asked more questions. But if I’m going to convene a firing squad, it’s not going to be for the guy who was so caught off guard he neglected to ask some important questions. I’ll save the hail of bullets for the operative who went to work for the bad guys.

[quote][quote] I'm sorry, but people just don't evaluate Shepard from any sort of an objective standpoint. If you were playing another game, and your player character ran into a character who makes the same claims that Shepard is making, you'd shut her down faster than you can say "Renegade Interrupt".[/quote]

But the VS doesn't evaluate from an objective viewpoint either that's half the problem.[/quote]

I’m not talking about the VS though, I’m talking about the PLAYERS. We are the observers, Shepard and the VS are the participants. Of course each of them has a subjective viewpoint. I put myself in each of their shoes, and look at the situation from both of their points of view. But it seems like a lot of people can only really see Shepard’s point of view, because Shepard is “you”. The VS is somebody hassling “you”, not a character in a story coming to an understandable conclusion based on the facts they have at their disposal. If there weren’t players on the forums pouting about the VS and concocting all sorts of revenge fantasies (usually involving an airlock), then I wouldn’t feel the need to underline the situation in such strong terms. But the lack of comprehension I see is downright astonishing sometimes.

[quote][quote] But because it's Shepard, and because we know from our godlike point of view that Shepard had no real choice but to join Cerberus, we characterize the VS as the one who has overreacted and screwed up the Horizon reunion. But the VS is perfectly justified to be angry and confused by Shepard being there with Cerberus. And every time anyone tries to brush that aside and say "look at the big picture" I will bring it back to this. Cerberus IS the big picture, from what the VS can see.[/quote]

To get it away from Cerberus for a second here's a translation of what you just argued

Agent K: Agent X you're back! Everyone thought you were dead
Agent X: I was dead but its okay the IRA brought me back from the dead because Cthulu have made an alliance with the Fae to destroy the planet!
Agent K: You're working for the IRA! You traitor!

I mean really . And before you say it, yes, exaggerated for effect but not by very much. Shepard really does claim something as barmy as that and the VS really does completely brush it off in favour of Cerberus[/quote]

Amusing, but I’m really not going to take the IRA’s word on Cthulu and the Fae either.

[quote] [quote]Everything is interconnected. Just because you witness what looks like Cerberus performing a good deed doesn't wash away all of the heinous deeds you've witnessed them doing. And if two people are standing toe-to-toe and one of them has information, I think the burden falls on THAT person to make the other party understand the situation. But everyone gives Shepard a pass for standing there in Derp Mode while the VS grapples with the revelation that once-trusted Shepard is a Cerberus cheerleader now. Yes, blame the one who DOESN'T know what's going on for not asking, don't blame the one who DOES know for not telling.[/quote]

If the VS had stood there and gone 'huh?' then sure blame Shepard 100% but they don't after the initial terrible exchange the VS is not listening anymore regardless of what Shepard says they just start making assumptions that at best are overly optimistic and miss vital information as a result.

[quote]Well, I don't doubt that the VS stance on Cerberus won't be nearly as inflexible as my own. They've already shown much more discretion in the matter than I ever would have. And of course, NOW the VS actually DOES have some information.[/quote]

Ah, thanks.

[quote]And I still blame Anderson a LOT for allowing this situation to play out the way it did. There is no reason for Anderson to keep Shepard's association with Cerberus a secret from the VS, or the information that Shepard is alive. Hello, the VS is on Horizon investigating Cerberus. Don't you think your investigator ought to have all the facts? Stupid Anderson. But no one's going to b¡tchslap Anderson for his stupidity, because he's "nice" to Shepard. And that's clearly the only thing people care about.[/quote]

I blame Anderson for loads of things - especially Retribution **shudder don't get me started**. I don't mostly blame Anderson for Horizon because he wasn't there. Unless of course he knowingly provided false intel to the VS in which case then yes I do blame him.

[/quote]

Well, can anyone give me a good reason why Anderson should not tell their top-secret operative everything they know about Cerberus? The operative who is investigating Cerberus? The operative who is more than likely to run into Shepard, if the Alliance’s hypothesis about Cerberus being involved in the abductions proves correct? Anyone?

Modifié par Siansonea II, 10 août 2011 - 12:38 .

[Siansonea]

Estelindis wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm just saying if "I" was Shepard, I wouldn't make any pretense about blowing up Cerberus. I'd make sure Timmy, Miranda and Jacob have the obituary list of all the people who thought they could put one over on me. Miranda wouldn't be stupid enough to think I trust her anyway, nor would TIM. So why be coy?

Fair enough.  It does seem as if open opposition to everything Cerberus represents, while still "working" for Cerberus, would be a path to another early grave.  I kept expecting that when my Shep forwarded the Cerberus info to the Alliance that it would come back to bite her in the ass.  After all, EDI handles everything on the ship communications-wise (it all seems to go through her, one way or another), and she spends most of the game working under limitations imposed by Cerberus.  I will never understand why TIM is so surprised when Paragon Shepard blows up the base, if said Shep has never given any indication of actually liking him or doing what he wants (when she's given the choice in-game, anyway). 

Basically, for a deeper and more realistic game, I'd expect that kind of open opposition to end in disaster for Shep.  But because this is Mass Effect, the hero pretty much can't lose.  (Well, not unless she has less than two squaddies left at the end of the game, but I honestly can never understand how anyone would get that ending unless they were aiming for it.)

If I'm Commander Shepard, I'm not afraid of Cerberus. I fully expect them to do their worst. And I'll be ready when they do. I'm not going to tiptoe around TIM and Miranda. I'm going to tell them flat out that they're only behind the Reapers on my list of People I Need To Kill Soon-ish. If they have a problem with that, they resurrected the wrong Spectre. It's a mistake they'll live to regret. For a little while, at least. But playing nice with TIM? Not an option.