1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

paul165 wrote...

>>I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. That because bad people have infiltrated the Alliance, therefore the Alliance as a whole is unworthy of respect? I'm sure the Alliance does everything it can to root out the moles, but the whole point of infiltrating an organization is to be INVISIBLE within the organization. So saying that Kaidan and Ashley have to share the blame of Cerberus moles within the Alliance—that's ridiculous.<<

I was saying that the Alliance is not massively better than Cerberus (see Torfan, BAat, illegal research) and the Council treads even closer (Krogan Rebellions). As for Cerberus infiltrators how hard they have to try to stay invisible seems to be somewhat variable along with how well the Alliance gets along with the 'rogue' organisation. **Cough** Arrival, Jacob's job offer, the grave of the SR1, construction of the SR2 **Cough**

Or for that matter - who actually did the research that led to EDI the Alliance after all has a history of AI research and AFAIK are the only major player except the Quarians with any real expertise in it.

The VS has to take precisely as much responsiblity for those actions as Shepard does for Akuse and Pragia. How much that should weigh on the discussions between the VS and Shepard is of course a matter of roleplaying rather than objective fact.

You can't really compare the Alliance and Cerberus. The Alliance is a legally recognized authority, one to whom Shepard, Kaidan and Ashley ALL pledged an oath of allegiance. I'm sure Paragon Shepard would be appalled if she knew some of the stuff the Alliance has done in the past, and I'm sure she IS appalled about the stuff she does know about. But she took an oath, and so did the VS. They're Alliance soldiers. You don't get to just walk away from that because of some moral objection to the Alliance's methods, and you certainly don't jump into bed with Cerberus! As big as the Alliance is, of course there are going to be a few clandestine operations and questionable ethics, and of course those should be condemned utterly once they're discovered. But Cerberus is nothing BUT clandestine operations and questionable ethics. There's literally nothing else to them. They've distilled all the worst traits of humanity into one organization, with none of the redeeming ones. Cerberus is trying to stop the Reapers, but that's hardly altruistic. It's completely a self-interest thing, and they would no doubt sacrifice ALL OTHER LIFE if they could preserve humanity. Hell, they'd probably prefer to sacrifice the other alien species. Two birds with one stone, and all that. So yeah, Cerberus is not equivalent to the Alliance, not based on what Shepard and the VS know of both organizations. And there's still the matter of that oath of allegiance. If you break your oath to a military organization by working with an enemy of said military organization, guess what that makes you? That's right, a TRAITOR.

So yeah, trying to make a case that Shepard is "justified" in working with Cerberus because "the Alliance does bad stuff too", that's just a rationalization, and not one that bears any scrutiny whatsoever.

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oi vey. I just want the option to RP a hostile/cold relationship with the VS. If my Shepard acts like everything is dandy with them on the ship bleh.  

Or even the option to smile in their face while secretly plotting against them and the alliance. Either would be awesome. 

I want this option too, believe it or not. I don't roleplay as "me" when I play Shepard, and I have six very different Shepards, ranging from pure Paragon to complete Renegade. So having an option for my psycho b¡tch Soldier to backstab Kaidan would be a welcome option. But "I" would never do that. Of course the game should have Renegade options for Shepards and players who can't see the VS point of view.

But I'm not only talking about Shepard's reaction to the VS, I'm also talking about players' reactions. Shepard can be as wise or as clueless as the player wants her to be. Paragon Shepard can see the big picture, and understand the VS' point-of-view. Renedouche Shepard just wants everyone to do what she says. But let's not pretend that the players' hatred of the VS is anything but a knee-jerk emotional response to the VS "being mean to me". It's obvious that the only thing that really matters to most folks is how "nice" someone is to the self-insert avatar. All the most popular characters are the ones who follow Shepard around without question or recrimination [Liara, Garrus, Tali, Joker], or who always take a "diplomatic" tone with Shepard [Anderson, Hackett].

No one ever actually questions their assumptions. No one ever asks themselves "what if I'm not completely in the right here?" No one ever asks themselves "how does it look from another person's point of view?" It really is a good idea to get in the habit of asking oneself these questions. Trying to see another person's point of view is quite useful. 

[Siansonea]

elektrego wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Oi vey. I just want the option to RP a hostile/cold relationship with the VS. If my Shepard acts like everything is dandy with them on the ship bleh.  

Or even the option to smile in their face while secretly plotting against them and the alliance. Either would be awesome. 

I want this option too, believe it or not. I don't roleplay as "me" when I play Shepard, and I have six very different Shepards, ranging from pure Paragon to complete Renegade. So having an option for my psycho b¡tch Soldier to backstab Kaidan would be a welcome option. But "I" would never do that. Of course the game should have Renegade options for Shepards and players who can't see the VS point of view.

But I'm not only talking about Shepard's reaction to the VS, I'm also talking about players' reactions. Shepard can be as wise or as clueless as the player wants her to be. Paragon Shepard can see the big picture, and understand the VS' point-of-view. Renedouche Shepard just wants everyone to do what she says. But let's not pretend that the players' hatred of the VS is anything but a knee-jerk emotional response to the VS "being mean to me". It's obvious that the only thing that really matters to most folks is how "nice" someone is to the self-insert avatar. All the most popular characters are the ones who follow Shepard around without question or recrimination [Liara, Garrus, Tali, Joker], or who always take a "diplomatic" tone with Shepard [Anderson, Hackett].

No one ever actually questions their assumptions. No one ever asks themselves "what if I'm not completely in the right here?" No one ever asks themselves "how does it look from another person's point of view?" It really is a good idea to get in the habit of asking oneself these questions. Trying to see another person's point of view is quite useful. 

This is exactly, how I feel about this. Thanks for saving me some typing, except for the six Shepards, I have a few more.
We had the option to be mean to them in ME1, i don't see why we shouldn't have them in ME3. What worries me (and makes me actually a little sick) is the players that seem to want to harm them for their pleasure and the emotional release of their own hatred.

And it is precisely this hatred that shows how irrational the thought process is to begin with. The venom that is spewed toward the VS is unbelievable. All because they had the nerve to have their own opinion, and not just parrot Shepard's point of view and stroke Shepard's ego. It's an over-identification with Shepard. The VS isn't calling out Shepard anymore, the VS is insulting the player, and the VS must pay.  <_<

[Ryzaki]

And there you go again assuming everyone who dislikes the VS does so because "OMG he/she didn't bow at my feet!" but what else is new.

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

And there you go again assuming everyone who dislikes the VS does so because "OMG he/she didn't bow at my feet!" but what else is new.

Not everyone, certainly. But this thread is specifically about Horizon. And the people who are having epic hissy fits about the VS tend to be referencing the VS' failure to "ask questions" or "have faith" in Shepard. Even though Shepard is in the company of probably the worst secondary villain organization from the first game, and apparently thinks they're "not so bad". 

Just out of curiousity though, why DO you hate the VS so much? And do you hate one of them more than the other?

Modifié par Siansonea II, 11 août 2011 - 05:36 .

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...
Not everyone, certainly. But this thread is specifically about Horizon. And the people who are having epic hissy fits about the VS tend to be referencing the VS' failure to "ask questions" or "have faith" in Shepard. Even though Shepard is in the company of probably the worst secondary villain organization from the first game, and apparently thinks they're "not so bad". 

Just out of curiousity though, why DO you hate the VS so much? And do you hate one of them more than the other?

I don't "hate" the VS. It's agame wasting such a passionate emotion on a pixel character is ridculous. I dislike them. Why? Multitude of reasons. I disliked them from ME1 though. Ash always got on my nerves. Kaidan's just...dull and unlikable to me because he doesn't *do* anything. I will admit that Horizon made me dislike Kaidan far more but not for the "OMG he didn't bow down to me!" reason. Then in ME2 it's assumed they were my Shep's BFFs (uh...what?) and then proceed to act as though Shep somehow betrayed them. 

So...a character my Shep pretty much insults/ignores in the first game up and acts like they were buddy buddy. In my view both Ash and Kaidan are delusional. Kaidan's "losing you was like losing a limb." is utterly ridculous. He and my Shep didn't know each other that well. He didn't even bother telling Shepard about his family. Ash acts like they were close friends when my Shep didn't want her on his ship and told her so at every available opportunity while also belittling her opinions and thoughts. Yet...somehow they would've followed Shep anywhere? What? 

It's the same reason I dislike Liara. Why am I being forced to have close friendships with these characters? Especially if I spent the first game telling them to f*ck off.  It's annoying and makes them look like pathetic leeches who can't take a goddamn hint. "Why didn't you try to contact me? Why didn't you let me know you were alive?"
Uh...what? 

Dude...I don't even like you. Why would I bother contacting your ass? 

If someone's telling you they don't care what you think or are ignoring you...they're probably not friends with you.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 août 2011 - 06:08 .

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Not everyone, certainly. But this thread is specifically about Horizon. And the people who are having epic hissy fits about the VS tend to be referencing the VS' failure to "ask questions" or "have faith" in Shepard. Even though Shepard is in the company of probably the worst secondary villain organization from the first game, and apparently thinks they're "not so bad". 

Just out of curiousity though, why DO you hate the VS so much? And do you hate one of them more than the other?

I don't "hate" the VS. It's agame wasting such a passionate emotion on a pixel character is ridculous. I dislike them. Why? Multitude of reasons. I disliked them from ME1 though. Ash always got on my nerves. Kaidan's just...dull and unlikable to me because he doesn't *do* anything. I will admit that Horizon made me dislike Kaidan far more but not for the "OMG he didn't bow down to me!" reason. Then in ME2 it's assumed they were my Shep's BFFs (uh...what?) and then proceed to act as though Shep somehow betrayed them. 

So...a character my Shep pretty much insults/ignores in the first game up and acts like they were buddy buddy. In my view both Ash and Kaidan are delusional. Kaidan's "losing you was like losing a limb." is utterly ridculous. He and my Shep didn't know each other that well. He didn't even bother telling Shepard about his family. Ash acts like they were close friends when my Shep didn't want her on his ship and told her so at every available opportunity while also belittling her opinions and thoughts. Yet...somehow they would've followed Shep anywhere? What? 

It's the same reason I dislike Liara. Why am I being forced to have close friendships with these characters? Especially if I spent the first game telling them to f*ck off.  It's annoying and makes them look like pathetic leeches who can't take a goddamn hint. "Why didn't you try to contact me? Why didn't you let me know you were alive?"
Uh...what? 

Dude...I don't even like you. Why would I bother contacting your ass? 

If someone's telling you they don't care what you think or are ignoring you...they're probably not friends with you.

Well if you don't really hate them then Siasonea II isn't reallly referring to you. I can understand why shepard may think they were delusional but remember. Those 6 or 12 weeks Shepard has been a renegade doesn't count for the other 2 or 3 months shepard stayed on the Normandy. Bioware seems to assume that your Shepard connected with the crew mates. Hell no matter what Shepard you had  he or she seems to enjoy Joker's and even Liara's company.

[1136342t54_]

jreezy wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

jreezy wrote...
People actually believe Ashley betrayed Shepard?

Of course they do. You see when a love interest doesn't get down on their knees on command from Commander Shepard it is an automatic betrayal and the punishment for that is spacing because they hurt the sensitive bad ass marine/Spectre.

That's some messed up logic. I never had any intention of killing her just because she says Shepard betrayed the Alliance. There may be some issues that will need to be addressed in ME3 but I personally have no need for an airlock. After having enough time to analyze the Horizon situation I figured Ashley just let her emotions get the best of her a little bit. 

You see that is the simplest interpretation of that situation and really the most logical one. The problem is is that not everyone share that belief. Hell I can even understand those who may dislike the VS for that but to show a large amount of hatred is just idiotic.

[Ryzaki]

1136342t54 wrote...
Well if you don't really hate them then Siasonea II isn't reallly referring to you. I can understand why shepard may think they were delusional but remember. Those 6 or 12 weeks Shepard has been a renegade doesn't count for the other 2 or 3 months shepard stayed on the Normandy. Bioware seems to assume that your Shepard connected with the crew mates. Hell no matter what Shepard you had  he or she seems to enjoy Joker's and even Liara's company.

So it's okay for BW to force my character to like certain characters despite giving me the opportunity to RP otherwise. Well that makes perfect sense. 

[redbaron76]

@ Ryzaki it seems to me that you are not happy with game default. It aslo seems to me that you are a minority of players who did not want to be friends with characters, so excuse me that you are not happy but 90 percent of players actualy consider, kaidan ashley and liara friends if not LI as far to as to your opinion get over it and stop trolling like five year old kid who loks to complain about everything.

[Ryzaki]

redbaron76 wrote...

@ Ryzaki it seems to me that you are not happy with game default. It aslo seems to me that you are a minority of players who did not want to be friends with characters, so excuse me that you are not happy but 90 percent of players actualy consider, kaidan ashley and liara friends if not LI as far to as to your opinion get over it and stop trolling like five year old kid who loks to complain about everything.

Really mature. 

How exactly am I trolling? Or are you one of those that go "troll = everyone whose opinion I don't share or like".

But it's easier to do that then admit to a game flaw right? ME1 allows Shepard to express disliking of both Liara, the VS and...pretty much everyone on the squad. The only people Shepard can't be cruel to in ME1 is Chakwas (and to an extent Joker. Shepard's curt but that's as far as it goes.) ME2 allows Shepard to express disliking of everyone except for some mindboggling reason the ME1 peeps. As for not wanting to be friends with characters...uh what? My Sheps have plenty of friends...but it should be a choice. I don't feel the need to force everyone's Shep to be friends with my favorite character. 

If this is gonna become some common occurance oh in the previous game you could RP Shep's relationship however you wanted but in the sequel you were doing it wrong an you're gonna be canon friends. I rather have BW stop pretending to give choice. 

Also: Trying to dismiss someone's arguement with a "you're in a minority." just makes your arguement look weak. This isn't content that I can safely ignore with no loss of other content either.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 août 2011 - 07:42 .

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
Well if you don't really hate them then Siasonea II isn't reallly referring to you. I can understand why shepard may think they were delusional but remember. Those 6 or 12 weeks Shepard has been a renegade doesn't count for the other 2 or 3 months shepard stayed on the Normandy. Bioware seems to assume that your Shepard connected with the crew mates. Hell no matter what Shepard you had  he or she seems to enjoy Joker's and even Liara's company.

So it's okay for BW to force my character to like certain characters despite giving me the opportunity to RP otherwise. Well that makes perfect sense. 

*Shrugs* what's your point? Bioware pretty much told us that Shepard has some canon elements that are necessary for the story. I honestly assumed everyone got that when playing through the game really.

[Ryzaki]

1136342t54 wrote...
*Shrugs* what's your point? Bioware pretty much told us that Shepard has some canon elements that are necessary for the story. I honestly assumed everyone got that when playing through the game really.

Those canon elements were made apparent when playing the first game. They didn't let us do something in the first game then "oh by the way you were wrong." in the second (other than personal relationships for some mindboggling reason). To me it's pretty much like telling everyone who killed the council that no their Shepard didn't kill the council and it's canon that he didn't. Since well the majority didn't kill the council! 

...So why offer the choice then if they weren't going to acknowledge it? It becomes silly. Even Garrus (in his own buggy way) acknowledges a Shepard that didn't recruit him. 

But let's see how many people saying I'm "trolling" start saying the same thing if in ME3 Shepard is "canonalized" into having a friendly relationship with TIM. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 août 2011 - 08:21 .

[RGC_Ines]

1136342t54 wrote...

*Shrugs* what's your point? Bioware pretty much told us that Shepard has some canon elements that are necessary for the story. I honestly assumed everyone got that when playing through the game really.

Sorry, I can't see how relationship with Kaidan/Ashley is important to story. Maybe they have big role in ME3, but Im interesting if they really can't play this role if they weren't Shepard's BFF.
Choices such relationship with companions should exist in RPG game. For me Kaidan/Ash/Liara were a friends or even LI, but it would be nice if  Devs didn't force players for " canon" friendship.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...
Those canon elements were made apparent when playing the first game. They didn't let us do something in the first game then "oh by the way you were wrong." in the second (other than personal relationships for some mindboggling reason). To me it's pretty much like telling everyone who killed the council that no their Shepard didn't kill the council and it's canon that he didn't. Since well the majority didn't kill the council! 

...So why offer the choice then if they weren't going to acknowledge it? It becomes silly. Even Garrus (in his own buggy way) acknowledges a Shepard that didn't recruit him. 

But let's see how many people saying I'm "trolling" start saying the same thing if in ME3 Shepard is "canonalized" into having a friendly relationship with TIM. 

Bolded for emphasis

Exactly!  What's the point in giving us options if they don't matter?  Why "Anders" characters?  Why render past actions meaningless?  Why, in fact, have game imports at all if we're just going to be told how events 'should" unfold.

I'm a fan of the VS (both of them) but I'd defend Ryzaki's choice to not care for them as much (even it's wrong ) Being forced to be old buddies of theirs is as wrong as them assuming you've turned traitor no matter how pro-Alliance/anti-Cerberus you were in ME1.  It's Bioware saying "No, you chose wrong"

If this isn't the stuff that was kept track of for the imports, then what was the point?

And if I'm buddies with TIM going into ME3, I'll rage hard.  That "screw you" at the end was very satisfying.  I'd hate to see it retconned.

[kumquats]

The only people who acknowledge that your Shepard is a **** or whatever, are Conrad Verner (he is bugged though) and Khalisah al-Jilani. (Excuse me if there are more NPCs and please correct me.)

[Edit] I think Gianna Parasini, says something if you screwed her in ME1, so it's three NPCs I can think of.

If they implement "deeper" relationships like they promised, being able to become a rival with them should be considered.
But the VS are not a special case, ME1 and ME2 have that problem in general, you have indeed many possibilities to interact with the characters, but they have no memory about that!

Even in BG1+2 the characters react to your reputation and to what you are doing. I always liked that.
I don't see why anyone wouldn't want that kind of interaction with the Squadis.

Of course, there is a reason why the VS are kept save in ME2. So even if their friendship is important for the plot in ME3. Why not give that option to the other Squadmates?
Even the useless reputation system could benefit from this or maybe it's to much work to write a social KI. Who knows...

Modifié par kumquats, 11 août 2011 - 08:51 .

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Not everyone, certainly. But this thread is specifically about Horizon. And the people who are having epic hissy fits about the VS tend to be referencing the VS' failure to "ask questions" or "have faith" in Shepard. Even though Shepard is in the company of probably the worst secondary villain organization from the first game, and apparently thinks they're "not so bad". 

Just out of curiousity though, why DO you hate the VS so much? And do you hate one of them more than the other?

I don't "hate" the VS. It's agame wasting such a passionate emotion on a pixel character is ridculous. I dislike them. Why? Multitude of reasons. I disliked them from ME1 though. Ash always got on my nerves. Kaidan's just...dull and unlikable to me because he doesn't *do* anything. I will admit that Horizon made me dislike Kaidan far more but not for the "OMG he didn't bow down to me!" reason. Then in ME2 it's assumed they were my Shep's BFFs (uh...what?) and then proceed to act as though Shep somehow betrayed them. 

So...a character my Shep pretty much insults/ignores in the first game up and acts like they were buddy buddy. In my view both Ash and Kaidan are delusional. Kaidan's "losing you was like losing a limb." is utterly ridculous. He and my Shep didn't know each other that well. He didn't even bother telling Shepard about his family. Ash acts like they were close friends when my Shep didn't want her on his ship and told her so at every available opportunity while also belittling her opinions and thoughts. Yet...somehow they would've followed Shep anywhere? What? 

It's the same reason I dislike Liara. Why am I being forced to have close friendships with these characters? Especially if I spent the first game telling them to f*ck off.  It's annoying and makes them look like pathetic leeches who can't take a goddamn hint. "Why didn't you try to contact me? Why didn't you let me know you were alive?"
Uh...what? 

Dude...I don't even like you. Why would I bother contacting your ass? 

If someone's telling you they don't care what you think or are ignoring you...they're probably not friends with you.

I understand this, actually, because I have the exact same issue with Garrus, Tali, and Wrex. Some of my Shepards didn't recruit Garrus, others didn't recruit Wrex. Naturally if you don't recruit Wrex, he somehow dies "off screen" and you run into Wreav on Tuchanka. But even if you do recruit Wrex and are a complete toolbag toward him, and Renegade him into submission on Virmire, he still greets you with "Shepard! My friend". And Garrus, even if you don't recruit him, acts like he and Shepard go waaaaaay back. Pffft. And Tali, ugh. Even if you are forced by Udina to take her on your crew, even if you douche out at every opportunity and tell her that her people deserve what they got at the hands of the geth, withhold the geth data, etc., she still greets you like a long-lost best pal on Freedom's Progress. And she still falls in lurve with you if you were completely dickish toward her back in the day, if you say the right things. Bleah.

So the problem really is that BioWare failed to account for Renedouche Shepard, and scale back the hero worship of the ME1 squad accordingly. It isn't just the VS, it isn't just Liara, it's ALL of them. What would have been awesome is a total brushoff from all of them, even Liara, depending on how Shepard treated them in ME1. But I guess BioWare thought that if you were douchey toward them in ME1, you would just be douchey toward them in ME2, and that would be that. Who knows? But yeah, they kind of dropped the ball with that one.

[Ryzaki]

@iakus: LOL but agreed for the most part. I don't see the point in a RPG that's "heavy in your relationships with these characters and how you choose to interact with them." yet forces you to be friends with all of them in a sequel. It's...ridiculous.

@Sian: Yes it's bad with all the ME1 squad. The only person it works with is Chakwas because she's the only one Shep's not at all a douche to.

It's not even just renedouche. My paragons aren't friends with everyone either. They just failed to account for anything other than OMG BFFs! with all the ME1 companions. Why I have no clue. But that ball was certainly dropped

[frostajulie]

Yezdigerd wrote...



To me the answer is obvious, yet the VS washes their hands of their friends "treason" and leaves him in the clutches of the Cerberus sect. which is just appalling if they really are friends or lovers.
Joker, Chakwas still unshakable faith in Shep, Andersson is sceptic but no treason spiel either. Hacketts trust Shephards version of things implicitly. but the woman/man that profess to love you cannot even be bothered hearing your side of the story much less give you the benefit of the doubt. It's just comical in the end and I just feel pity for the VS for being a victim of bad writing rather then hurt over what they actually are saying.

Exactly nothing to do with being worshipped at all but everything to do with the supposed relationship they once had.

I would never leave someone I loved in the hands of a cult or what have you if I thought they were being manipulated or brainwashed.  I can see a friend calling you a traitor and walking away but not a LI they know who you are or at least they did at one time.
Of course for some shepards that means it shouldn't come as a surprise to find them working for a terrorist organization:devil:

[LadyJaneGrey]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Sian: Yes it's bad with all the ME1 squad. The only person it works with is Chakwas because she's the only one Shep's not at all a douche to.

It's not even just renedouche. My paragons aren't friends with everyone either. They just failed to account for anything other than OMG BFFs! with all the ME1 companions. Why I have no clue. But that ball was certainly dropped

Word.  Where were my role playing options, Bioware?  Liara freaked my most paragon Shepard out in ME1, but that was nothing compared to LotSB.  She shouldn't be acting like they're best buds.  Do not do this in ME3.  <_<

/end gamer temper tantrum

Back to VS: I want my roleplaying options, please.  A couple of my Sheps will want to talk it out, a couple will want to get straight to the mission, and another wants an epic get-out option.

[1136342t54_]

RGC_Ines wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

*Shrugs* what's your point? Bioware pretty much told us that Shepard has some canon elements that are necessary for the story. I honestly assumed everyone got that when playing through the game really.

Sorry, I can't see how relationship with Kaidan/Ashley is important to story. Maybe they have big role in ME3, but Im interesting if they really can't play this role if they weren't Shepard's BFF.
Choices such relationship with companions should exist in RPG game. For me Kaidan/Ash/Liara were a friends or even LI, but it would be nice if  Devs didn't force players for " canon" friendship.

So being on a friendly accord with shepard then serving under Shepard for months and fighting by his or her side for those months naturally growing a bit closer like family (family do not have to be friends) makes them BFF? Honestly I would see shepard as a family member after that long amount of time at least something close to one. Hell even renegade shepard would be seen as that **** Uncle who comes to holiday's and somehow makes others fill a bit down but that Uncle is still family.

I see it as if they are close because they fought, shed blood together and saved each other's lives. That type of comraderie is a bit different than BFFs.

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...

Those canon elements were made apparent when playing the first game. They didn't let us do something in the first game then "oh by the way you were wrong." in the second (other than personal relationships for some mindboggling reason). To me it's pretty much like telling everyone who killed the council that no their Shepard didn't kill the council and it's canon that he didn't. Since well the majority didn't kill the council! 

Ugh comparing this to saving or not saving the council decision is one of the worst comparisons and just a exageration. Growing close to someone that you fought and shed blood with for almost a year creates a relationship with that person. Whether its BFFs or not its up to you but Bioware assumes its a relatively friendly relationship which it would likely be. Renegade shep isn't a total psychopath and can have some sort of a friendly relationship with the former crew but that's a natural growth which will happen either way. Its not like Bioware forced you to screw them.

...So why offer the choice then if they weren't going to acknowledge it? It becomes silly. Even Garrus (in his own buggy way) acknowledges a Shepard that didn't recruit him. 

What choice? To be a strict Commander or a friendly Commander who likes to be friend everyone? Even a strict Commander would eventually grow to care for his former crew after serving for that long. Hell when you come back from the dead and are forced to work for Cerberus seeing anyone from your former crew would likely make you happy no matter what. Garrus thing is just bioware not expecting a large majority of people not recruiting him.

But let's see how many people saying I'm "trolling" start saying the same thing if in ME3 Shepard is "canonalized" into having a friendly relationship with TIM. 

Now I don't want to say this is trolling but now your just being silly and exagerating even more. 

[Ryzaki]

 

1136342t54 wrote...
Ugh comparing this to saving or not saving the council decision is one of the worst comparisons and just a exageration. Growing close to someone that you fought and shed blood with for almost a year creates a relationship with that person. Whether its BFFs or not its up to you but Bioware assumes its a relatively friendly relationship which it would likely be. Renegade shep isn't a total psychopath and can have some sort of a friendly relationship with the former crew but that's a natural growth which will happen either way. Its not like Bioware forced you to screw them.

...Have you ever played renegade Shepard? I'm seriously asking. Play renegade Shepard (complete renegade) and come back and tell me about some "relatively friendly relationship." 

I didn't know constantly insulting somone and belittling them was conductive to a friendly relationship. 

And it's quite possible to fight and live with someone that you don't like. Magically it happens during the SM. You think Jack and Miranda magically start liking each other just because they fought with each other? Uh... 

Natural growth? I wasn't aware I couldn't pick how hostile to be to my party members in ME1...oh wait...couldn't I be a jerk even near endgame? Oh yes I could! So...hm...this is odd. I can be cruel and harsh all the way up to endgame but magically durnig those relatively peaceful months (no Sovereign or severe Geth threat) my Shep somehow goes from hostile and dersive to being buddy buddies because of fighting to the death with the crew? Huh. Odd that didn't happen when they were fighting Saren don't you think? 

What choice? To be a strict Commander or a friendly Commander who likes to be friend everyone? Even a strict Commander would eventually grow to care for his former crew after serving for that long. Hell when you come back from the dead and are forced to work for Cerberus seeing anyone from your former crew would likely make you happy no matter what. Garrus thing is just bioware not expecting a large majority of people not recruiting him.

The choice to be friendly or cold. Why on earth would it make renegade Shepard (or even paragon) Shepard happy no matter what? Why are you trying to push your  Shepard on me? All Sheps are not the same.

Now I don't want to say this is trolling but now your just being silly and exagerating even more. 

Silly and exaggerating? Ra forbid I ask BW to keep up with viable RP options they gave in the first game. Oh noes.  

How is this silly and exaggerating? Shepard owes TIM a debt! How can you work for someone who gives you everything you want, gives you back your life, your ship, a new crew, the means to save the galaxy again without having warm feelings for them?

Oh that arguement doesn't seem so good now does it?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 août 2011 - 10:41 .

[Yezdigerd]

Siansonea II wrote...

Right, everyone's supposed to have "unshakeable faith" in Shepard. Because she's a god or something.

No, but last time time Shepard comitted treason she saved the galaxy as we know it, that wouldn't give you pause for thought?. Especially since the VS had “faith” in Shephard's judgment then and were vindicated in defying the alliance.
I just mentioned all Shepard's other alliance buddies since they view her completely differently, even though the VS should know Shep better then them. And having faith in the “hero of the citadel” seems more reasonable to me then simply assuming that Shepard is aiding and abetting a terrorist organization she sought to destroy 2 years ago.

How do your VS know that Shephard intentions aren't good? How does the VS know Shepard isn't played by
Cerberus? How do the VS know Cerberus haven't cloned or brainwashed her?
The VS just never bothers to find out. If Shep was the love of my life I certainly wouldn't leave any rock unturned.

That would SO not happen in the real world. If you showed up on neutral turf, and met a fellow soldier after believing she was dead for two years, and then found out she was working for an organization that has been killing other soldiers for years, you would NOT give her the "benefit of the doubt" or anything else.

Assuming they aren't shooting at me, If my Navy SEAL buddy turned up with known members of Al-Qa'ida, my first thought wouldn't be that he had embraced militant Islam. Some kind of covert operation would probably be the first many more credible scenarios I would go for in absence of other information..

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 11 août 2011 - 10:43 .