1476 réponses à ce sujet

[1136342t54_]

Ugh. Sorry. I'm angry about another thred. 

It screwed with mine and it irked me. But there are ways around that. I'm not fond of killing characters I like just because my Shep doesn't but if it'll avoid my Shep being OOC...oh well. 

Eh that's alright. Same happens to me  to.

[rapscallioness]

I will say this also, it's not just that shep is w/ Cerberus that IMO has the VS upset, but also the idea that Shep..abandoned them. Abandoned the crew; the mission...to top it off, they're w/ Cerberus.

When Shep died, the Council and the Alliance were none too nice. They busted up everything and everybody. Then here comes Shep (and really who's gonna believe that Shep was resurrected by Cerberus) so it appears as nothing more than Shep ditched them.

So, yes, the VS was in pain i think for a variety of reasons. Not just Cerberus. And no, I don't hate the VS, who is also my LI. Yes, I'm ticked w/ him, but I'm still keeping him. We'll work it out.

And @Sian...I don't agree w/ you that it's all Shepard's fault on Horizon. You say we're idolizing Shepard, but I feel like you're idolizing the Vs. To you the VS can do no wrong. Shep needs to kiss his azz or something. I don't expect, nor want the VS to kiss my Shepard azz, but I'm not kissing his either.

I don't even understand what you're doing Siansonea. I don't understand why this is such a big deal to you. You've been belaboring this point like some kinda zealot. You can't make ppl agree w/ you. You can't make them see it the way you see it. Your opinion is just one of many in a sea of opinions. All you can ever do is make your point as best you can, and if you're lucky you give them something to think abt.

I've been watching this thread and you've been rude as hell to ppl that...for the most part...have been nothing but polite to you. You started off making good points and having some humor abt. it. Next thing I know, you're calling ppl dumb and just being condescending and insulting.

I use to enjoy reading ur posts. I didn't agree w/ all of them, but you would make sum good points, have a different perspective on things. But this...I'm thinking who the heck is this and what have they done w/ Sian?

And it's not the back and forth so much as the belittling tone I've seen you take w/ppl that disagree w/ you. I understand it can be frustrating when ppl don't see what you think is obvious, but sometimes you just gotta let it go.

[Iakus]

1136342t54 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Well, it's a good thing Shepard (my Shepard, at least) isn't working for Cerberus, isn't it? 

He's temporarilly working alongside them.  Teaming up against a  threat even bigger than Cerberus.  Ya know, the Reapers.  Using the Collectors as pawns.  Just as they used the geth last time 'round.

But eventually, Cerberus won't be the lesser evil.  Form the sound of things, that'll happen in ME3. 

That's how I played my shepard to the problem is that even though you know this, your crew knows this  and hell even Cerberus knows this doesn't mean that the whole Galaxy won't see it differently.

I mean the Council even through all their faults did put the right way. They thought shepard was dead but now reports are around that shep is alive and working for Cerberus a enemy of the Council and Systems Alliance. 

It''s understandable that others are suspicious of Shepard.  But I'm only concerned about one person:  the VS who after seeing me avenge Kahoku, hearing Toombs' story etc, they should know better that my Shep would never willingly work for Cerberus unless there was something huge going down.  Duress. mind control, deception, I could handle those reasonings.  But treason?  It's the absolute wring reasoning to go down   for my Shepard, at least.  Epic writing fail.

Anderson's response was good.  He welcomed Shep but deliberately withheld information because Shep was now a security leak

The Council was more or less expected.  They're suspicious, but out of gratitude for saving them, make the largely ceremonial gesture of offering him his Spectreship back.

Tali's response was the best one:  Suspicious, but after seeing that Shepard doesn't answer to Cerberus, leaves Freedom's Progress refusing to go along with SHep, but  with an "I'm glad to see you're still calling the shots" (or something to that effect)

[redbaron76]

BUt vs does not get that oportunity, and simple fact i sso long as shepard is with cerberus he is a traitor to alliance.

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...

It''s understandable that others are suspicious of Shepard.  But I'm only concerned about one person:  the VS who after seeing me avenge Kahoku, hearing Toombs' story etc, they should know better that my Shep would never willingly work for Cerberus unless there was something huge going down.  Duress. mind control, deception, I could handle those reasonings.  But treason?  It's the absolute wring reasoning to go down   for my Shepard, at least.  Epic writing fail.

Anderson's response was good.  He welcomed Shep but deliberately withheld information because Shep was now a security leak

The Council was more or less expected.  They're suspicious, but out of gratitude for saving them, make the largely ceremonial gesture of offering him his Spectreship back.

Tali's response was the best one:  Suspicious, but after seeing that Shepard doesn't answer to Cerberus, leaves Freedom's Progress refusing to go along with SHep, but  with an "I'm glad to see you're still calling the shots" (or something to that effect)

I understand this and I do think Bioware could have done this differently but I think this was more to create some tension between Shep and the VS though. Like the poster above said the VS didn't necessarily get the chance Tali had. Tali saw how shep wasn't really different while working with Cerberus so she could believe that shepard had his reasons. Anderson was one of the few people who trusted shepard implicitly especially when it came to the Reapers and to be honest he shouldn't have trusted Shepard without some proof. That also could be explained by Anderson seeing himself in Shepard 20 years ago when he was accused of killing all those Batarians.

The VS did seem to think that Cerberus was using Shepard's belief that the Reapers was coming as a way to manipulate him. To be honest its likely a mixture of Shepard technically committing treason and some mixed emotions about the whole situation.

[ChaplainTappman]

Late to the party, so this has probably already been stated, argued, stated, argued, etc. But I only feel like this is an issue with Kaidan. Ash is hurt (understandable, since the tech to bring back the dead generally doesn't exist), and suspicious when she finds out about Shepard's Cerberus connection (also understandable, considering it's Cerberus). But she's pretty reserved; "I don't trust Cerberus, and it worries me that you do," or something to that effect.

Kaidan, on the other hand, flat out calls Shepard a traitor. Twice. Even the message he sends to you if you romanced him doesn't give me the impression that he doesn't really believe that and was just speaking emotionally. No matter whether the real world or in game, I don't take kindly to people questioning my integrity.

As an aside, I know it's a scripted video game, but I feel like the fact that my Shepards always show up on Horizon with two aliens suggests that I'm not all that into the Cerberus philosophy.

[Ryzaki]

jreezy wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Late to the party, so this has probably already been stated, argued, stated, argued, etc. But I only feel like this is an issue with Kaidan. Ash is hurt (understandable, since the tech to bring back the dead generally doesn't exist), and suspicious when she finds out about Shepard's Cerberus connection (also understandable, considering it's Cerberus). But she's pretty reserved; "I don't trust Cerberus, and it worries me that you do," or something to that effect.

Kaidan, on the other hand, flat out calls Shepard a traitor. Twice. Even the message he sends to you if you romanced him doesn't give me the impression that he doesn't really believe that and was just speaking emotionally. No matter whether the real world or in game, I don't take kindly to people questioning my integrity.

As an aside, I know it's a scripted video game, but I feel like the fact that my Shepards always show up on Horizon with two aliens suggests that I'm not all that into the Cerberus philosophy.

Ashley even recognizes when I bring Garrus with me to Horizon but she definitely didn't pay too much attention to the company I keep.

I hacked the game so Tali and Garrus was with me. Kaidan acknowledges this then says they joined Cerberus as well. 
HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 12:42 .

[Dean_the_Young]

What, you think Cerberus wouldn't employ aliens?

That would be... exceptionally stupid of any covert agency.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What, you think Cerberus wouldn't employ aliens?

That would be... exceptionally stupid of any covert agency.

Why would a former C-sec officer and a extremely loyal quarian to her people join Cerberus? 

Though I don't think Cerberus would employ aliens. Is there any evidence that they do? Plus if they did I'm pretty sure Miranda would've brought it up during Shepard's "maybe I should join you." bit when she's talking about how many Cerberus people join them out of simple xenophibia. 

I can see Cerberus working with aliens. But having aliens as a part of their organization? Nope. Too many xenophobics in it to make me believe that. Pretty sure STG doesn't have humans in it. I don't think they'd have a problem working with humans though. 

If there was any aliens working with Cerberus TIM would've shoved them in Shep's face to go "See! See! We accept aliens too!" 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 12:56 .

[TobiTobsen]

Well... at least TIM likes working... äh... above or with Asari ;D

[Ryzaki]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Well... at least TIM likes working... äh... above or with Asari ;D

 

More like screwing. Plenty of racists will sleep with the race they common belittle. (Though I don't think TIM's xenophobic. That organization he made on the other hand...). Plus politics are very mixed up with species. The only groups I can see employing various species would be merc gangs and the council (and even they tend to restrict spectres to members of the council races).  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What, you think Cerberus wouldn't employ aliens?

That would be... exceptionally stupid of any covert agency.

Why would a former C-sec officer and a extremely loyal quarian to her people join Cerberus?

Because Cerberus offered them something they wanted. This is generally how the concept of employment works: you have something I want (your skills), and I have something you want (information/money/action/threats you don't want me to carry out). Shared ideology is hardly a requirement for employment.

Garrus is a former C-sec officer, but then so was Harkin. Harkin, to our knowledge, hasn't ever expressed a wish that that they had worked with Cerberus even earlier.

Tali could be working with Cerberus BECAUSE she is a loyal Quarian: whether such work is sanctioned by the Migrant Fleet (which, in a sense, it is), or because her sense of loyalty permits or demands she does.

Though I don't think Cerberus would employ aliens. Is there any evidence that they do?

Uh, yes.

Besides ME2, in which we have both the crew in question and post-mission reviews (particularly the Tuchanka missions) which reference Cerberus's employment of alien sources, we also have the book referenced in ME2 in which Cerberus basically bought a Quarian's services in order to infiltrate the Migrant Fleet.

Plus if they did I'm pretty sure Miranda would've brought it up during Shepard's "maybe I should join you." bit when she's talking about how many Cerberus people join them out of simple xenophibia.

She could also have mentioned that Cerberus runs charities that help the victims of the Colony abductions, like Horizon. She also could have mentioned how she and Jacob saved the Council. She could have mentioned that she worked with Liara before. She didn't mention a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I can see Cerberus working with aliens. But having aliens as a part of their organization? Nope. Too many xenophobics in it to make me believe that. Pretty sure STG doesn't have humans in it. I don't think they'd have a problem working with humans though.

And the reason a cell-structured organization of which a fundamental aspect of which is that cells do not recognize or know of eachother can not provide a second cell of non-xenophobes to manage aliens is...?

Unless you intend to argue that every last non-xenophobe in Cerberus was on Shepard's ship. And that xenophobes can't work with aliens, when we have plenty of historical examples of racists working with the races they personally detest in a professional manner because they value their mission over personal racism.

If there was any aliens working with Cerberus TIM would've shoved them in Shep's face to go "See! See! We accept aliens too!" 

You mean, besides the multi-species team he was finding for you? Or how no one on the ship Shepard can talk to has any such xenophobic tendencies? You know, the actual Cerberus we're presented rather than the one imagined and maintained despite exposure to the contrary?

An argument to claim that the lack of evidence is evidence of lack even though the evidence isn't in lack is rather, well, silly.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 août 2011 - 01:10 .

[Ryzaki]

Okay *shrugs* They hire aliens.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yup.

So... how about that Virmire Survivor? I was just punching in the Mass Effect Plot Generator, and I got 'Ash Virmires Kaiden.'

[Ryzaki]

I wonder what will be the choice that makes them fight Shepard if there's one? I hope it has something to do with betraying the alliance.

I just hope betraying the alliance doesn't force one to be pro-cerberus. I'd have loads of fun betraying everybody.

[Dariustwinblade]

I am thinking like DA:O. Wynne and Leliana(unhardened) betray you when you defile the ash. Or Shales if you preserve the anvil infront of her. Ogren if you try to make him a golem. Zevran if you are not friendly. Can't remember sten.

[Siansonea]

rapscallioness wrote...

I will say this also, it's not just that shep is w/ Cerberus that IMO has the VS upset, but also the idea that Shep..abandoned them. Abandoned the crew; the mission...to top it off, they're w/ Cerberus.

When Shep died, the Council and the Alliance were none too nice. They busted up everything and everybody. Then here comes Shep (and really who's gonna believe that Shep was resurrected by Cerberus) so it appears as nothing more than Shep ditched them.

So, yes, the VS was in pain i think for a variety of reasons. Not just Cerberus. And no, I don't hate the VS, who is also my LI. Yes, I'm ticked w/ him, but I'm still keeping him. We'll work it out.

And @Sian...I don't agree w/ you that it's all Shepard's fault on Horizon. You say we're idolizing Shepard, but I feel like you're idolizing the Vs. To you the VS can do no wrong. Shep needs to kiss his azz or something. I don't expect, nor want the VS to kiss my Shepard azz, but I'm not kissing his either.

I don't even understand what you're doing Siansonea. I don't understand why this is such a big deal to you. You've been belaboring this point like some kinda zealot. You can't make ppl agree w/ you. You can't make them see it the way you see it. Your opinion is just one of many in a sea of opinions. All you can ever do is make your point as best you can, and if you're lucky you give them something to think abt.

I've been watching this thread and you've been rude as hell to ppl that...for the most part...have been nothing but polite to you. You started off making good points and having some humor abt. it. Next thing I know, you're calling ppl dumb and just being condescending and insulting.

I use to enjoy reading ur posts. I didn't agree w/ all of them, but you would make sum good points, have a different perspective on things. But this...I'm thinking who the heck is this and what have they done w/ Sian?

And it's not the back and forth so much as the belittling tone I've seen you take w/ppl that disagree w/ you. I understand it can be frustrating when ppl don't see what you think is obvious, but sometimes you just gotta let it go.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But from where I'm standing, it just looks like a bunch of abuse is heaped on the VS, and no one seems to question Shepard or how things look from the VS' perspective. We humans have a tendency to completely ignore another person's point of view in general, but this is ridiculous. Actually, "ignore" isn't quite the right word, since that implies that something is noticed on some level in the first place. I guess it's more that people are oblivious to the fact that someone might come to a completely different conclusion about an event based on their subjective viewpoint. That person is expected to understand your subjective viewpoint perfectly, however, and act accordingly.

What it boils down to, and the reason I've become increasingly strident in this thread, is because much of what I've seen from the "Shepard Rules!" faction can be distilled into a few key concepts.

• Cerberus Isn't So Bad!™: The VS should appreciate some sort of distinction that Shepard is working "with" or "alongside" Cerberus, rather than "for" Cerberus. As if that even IS a distinction. It sure looks like TIM is calling all the shots anyway. I'm sure he thinks he is. Shepard sure does seem to do everything he says—up until the end. And doesn't even squawk too much. Shepard is really docile in this game.
• Cerberus Isn't So Bad!™: Because the Alliance did some questionable stuff too, some of which Shepard and the VS even know about. So I guess Shepard's and the VS' oaths to the Alliance are null and void, huh? And things like murder, torture, questionable scientific ethics, those are excusable if done "for the right reasons". And those "right reasons" seem to be "benefits me" in most cases.
• It's Shepard!™: The VS is expected to trust Shepard, no matter what. Even after a mysterious 2-year absence that Shepard doesn't adequately explain. And even though she is with a group of terrorists. All just because of who she is and what she did two years ago. Shepard isn't subject to the same rules that other people are subject to.
• It's Shepard!™: Nothing Shepard says or does is as bad as the VS making some sharp comments and not immediately embracing Shepard working with Cerberus. A few mild rebukes are worse than being in the company of terrorists.
• Paragons Are Stupid™: The ends justify the means. Always. If you try to hold yourself to a higher standard, you're just "unrealistic" or otherwise stupid, foolish, obstinate, etc.
• You Talkin' To ME?!™: Because "I" am Shepard, I'm supposed to completely accept and buy into Shepard's view of events, and completely reject the point of view of other characters. Sorry, but Tela Vasir was right about you too, Shepard. You ARE a massive hypocrite.
• Word Of God™: Because the game doesn't give Shepard an option to say or do something, it's a foregone conclusion that the options the game DOES give you are the "right" ones. Shepard couldn't possibly say or do anything truly stupid, the game wouldn't let that happen! But the opposite is then true for the other characters. Therefore "disagrees with Shepard" = "wrong".

And it all just gets old. Same old egocentric BS. No one ever thinks about how things would look if the shoe was on the other foot. And it's not because I just adore the VS as a character that I have been so relentless in this thread. It's because I abhor this type of thinking in general. In a perfect world we'd all at least try to see things from another person's point of view, rather than make some thinly veiled stabs at lip service to that goal, for the purpose of rationalizing the unshakeable subjective conclusion that was never actually questioned at any point in the discussion.

And personally, you can chastise me for my "tone" all you want. Being "nice" is overrated, especially on the Internet. Being nice for the sake of harmony just makes people ignore you and treat you like a doormat. And it seems like THAT is the crux of the whole issue. If the VS was "nice" to Shepard, then we wouldn't have a problem. But if I was "nice" to all these folks after the umpteenth time they try to downplay Cerberus, if I treated them as if their arguments were anything but thinly veiled egocentrism, then people might think that I believe there is a shred of validity to these convoluted pretzel logic scenarios. Because I DO understand their point of view so well, it's obvious to me what's really going on. And I'm not going to act like it's not happening. So if anybody has a problem with my "tone", they can get glad in the same pants they got mad in. Or not. But being "liked" has never been high on my list of priorities, especially if it requires me to be as docile as Shepard or as deferential and accommodating as Garrus and Tali. No thank you.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 13 août 2011 - 03:59 .

[ChaplainTappman]

jreezy wrote...

Ashley even recognizes when I bring Garrus with me to Horizon but she definitely didn't pay too much attention to the company I keep.

I don't know, maybe amongst military/intelligence communities it's common knowledge that Cerberus will work with nonhumans if it must; the novels make that abundantly clear. But the VS knows Garrus, knows that he's not mercenary in any sense. If he's working with Cerberus, it's because there's a real reason, not because he's with Cerberus.

Modifié par ChaplainTappman, 13 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[AVPen]

Ryzaki wrote...

I wonder what will be the choice that makes them fight Shepard if there's one? I hope it has something to do with betraying the alliance.

I just hope betraying the alliance doesn't force one to be pro-cerberus. I'd have loads of fun betraying everybody.

I could see the VS and/or Vega going against Shepard if his/her decisions and choices threaten Alliance interests and humanity's interests (say for example, delaying the retaking of Earth in order to help out other species instead of humanity) or even accepting squadmates onto the Normandy that the VS and Alliance considers to be enemies (taking in Miranda and Jacob back into the squad).

[ChaplainTappman]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm sorry you feel that way. But from where I'm standing, it just looks like a bunch of abuse is heaped on the VS, and no one seems to question Shepard or how things look from the VS' perspective. We humans have a tendency to completely ignore another person's point of view in general, but this is ridiculous. Actually, "ignore" isn't quite the right word, since that implies that something is noticed on some level in the first place. I guess it's more that people are oblivious to the fact that someone might come to a completely different conclusion about an event based on their subjective viewpoint. That person is expected to understand your subjective viewpoint perfectly, however, and act accordingly.

What it boils down to, and the reason I've become increasingly strident in this thread, is because much of what I've seen from the "Shepard Rules!" faction can be distilled into a few key concepts.

• Cerberus Isn't So Bad!™: The VS should appreciate some sort of distinction that Shepard is working "with" or "alongside" Cerberus, rather than "for" Cerberus. As if that even IS a distinction. It sure looks like TIM is calling all the shots anyway. I'm sure he thinks he is. Shepard sure does seem to do everything he says—up until the end. And doesn't even squawk too much. Shepard is really docile in this game.
• Cerberus Isn't So Bad!™: Because the Alliance did some questionable stuff too, some of which Shepard and the VS even know about. So I guess Shepard's and the VS' oaths to the Alliance are null and void, huh? And things like murder, torture, questionable scientific ethics, those are excusable if done "for the right reasons". And those "right reasons" seem to be "benefits me" in most cases.
• It's Shepard!™: The VS is expected to trust Shepard, no matter what. Even after a mysterious 2-year absence that Shepard doesn't adequately explain. And even though she is with a group of terrorists. All just because of who she is and what she did two years ago. Shepard isn't subject to the same rules that other people are subject to.
• It's Shepard!™: Nothing Shepard says or does is as bad as the VS making some sharp comments and not immediately embracing Shepard working with Cerberus. A few mild rebukes are worse than being in the company of terrorists.
• Paragons Are Stupid™: The ends justify the means. Always. If you try to hold yourself to a higher standard, you're just "unrealistic" or otherwise stupid, foolish, obstinate, etc.
• You Talkin' To ME?!™: Because "I" am Shepard, I'm supposed to completely accept and buy into Shepard's view of events, and completely reject the point of view of other characters. Sorry, but Tela Vasir was right about you too, Shepard. You ARE a massive hypocrite.
• Word Of God™: Because the game doesn't give Shepard an option to say or do something, it's a foregone conclusion that the options the game DOES give you are the "right" ones. Shepard couldn't possibly say or do anything truly stupid, the game wouldn't let that happen! But the opposite is then true for the other characters. Therefore "disagrees with Shepard" = "wrong".

And it all just gets old. Same old egocentric BS. No one ever thinks about how things would look if the shoe was on the other foot. And it's not because I just adore the VS as a character that I have been so relentless in this thread. It's because I abhor this type of thinking in general. In a perfect world we'd all at least try to see things from another person's point of view, rather than make some thinly veiled stabs at lip service to that goal, for the purpose of rationalizing the unshakeable subjective conclusion that was never actually questioned at any point in the discussion.

And personally, you can chastise me for my "tone" all you want. Being "nice" is overrated, especially on the Internet. Being nice for the sake of harmony just makes people ignore you and treat you like a doormat. And it seems like THAT is the crux of the whole issue. If the VS was "nice" to Shepard, then we wouldn't have a problem. But if I was "nice" to all these folks after the umpteenth time they try to downplay Cerberus, if I treated them as if their arguments were anything but thinly veiled egocentrism, then people might think that I believe there is a shred of validity to these convoluted pretzel logic scenarios. Because I DO understand their point of view so well, it's obvious to me what's really going on. And I'm not going to act like it's not happening. So if anybody has a problem with my "tone", they can get glad in the same pants they got mad in. Or not. But being "liked" has never been high on my list of priorities, especially if it requires me to be as docile as Shepard or as deferential and accommodating as Garrus and Tali. No thank you.

I think you're kind of calling the kettle black. You're chastising people for not attempting to understand the VS's point of view. But it seems like you're dismissing Shepard's (that is, our) point/points of view. I understand the VS being hurt, being angry, being suspicious. I would be too in their situation. But Shepard, the players - we- have a right to be upset as well. The VS, especially Kaidan, says some incredibly hurtful things on Horizon, and doesn't attempt to understand the situation at hand. He/she simply gets angry, leaps to a conclusion, and leaves. A human being cannot be expected to always be okay with that, even if we understand it.

Like I said, I understand where the VS is coming from. I wish they'd listen and take the time to understand what's actually going on, but I mostly understand their reaction. I expect and require no act of contrition from Ash. But Kaidan called my integrity into question. He called me a traitor to the Alliance and to the Council. Even more frustrating is that Kaidan is neither stupid nor naive. He understands the reality of the galaxy; that things aren't always black and white. That sometimes you have to do things, deal with people you wouldn't in a perfect world. He knows that, and still he immediately questions by loyalty and my integrity. Am I supposed to be cool with that? Just let him back on my ship, back in my crew, without any issue? No. Absolutely not. He clearly doesn't trust me, and that means I can't trust him to watch my back.

[paul165]

And the argument put forth by those who support the VS without conditions can be boiled down to:

1)Cerberus is evil.
2)Because Shepard does not take action X,Y and Z which would likely endanger the mission or their life whatever the VS does in response is justified

See I can do overly glib and simplistic summaries of arguments as well and it doesn't really help.

Whilst being 'nice' is not the be all and end all if it assists in achieving objectives or just wouldn't cost anything - why not employ it? If the VS had been 'nicer' (ug I hate that description can't we use patient, diplomatic, calculated or inquisitive instead? Nice has a whole load of connetations that don't really apply to that conversation) then they would have obtained more information, more aid, more evidence of Shepard's treason, more whatever they were trying to get out of that conversation.

As it is what did they accomplish?
a)They expressed their distaste of Cerberus and Shepard personally
.......

The result being that for a significant amount of Shepards it helped push them further into Cerberus' welcoming arms and that come ME3 they are then faced with an awkward relationship with their CO. That's a very large bill for such a small gain.

As for Shepard's oaths you died at that point all oaths are negated - it certainly appears the Alliance takes that attitude as they couldn't even be bothered to bury the bodies of loyal personnel.

I acknowledge the appearance Shepard presents to the VS it's just that, much like iakus, I expect the VS to notice the problems that surface appearance causes with what they already know - of Shepard, of Cerberus, of the attack on the Normandy and the attack of Horizon. Surely that isn't too much to ask of a Spectre candidate and special forces soldier is it - to notice at least some of the things that don't add up?

[Quething]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Ashley even recognizes when I bring Garrus with me to Horizon but she definitely didn't pay too much attention to the company I keep.

I don't know, maybe amongst military/intelligence communities it's common knowledge that Cerberus will work with nonhumans if it must; the novels make that abundantly clear. But the VS knows Garrus, knows that he's not mercenary in any sense. If he's working with Cerberus, it's because there's a real reason, not because he's with Cerberus.

I don't think Garrus' presence means much. His devotion to Shepard is a known fact to more folks than just the Shadow Broker. Shep can convince him to abandon his principles, his driving force and his most tightly-held deeply-sworn promises to the people he was taught his entire life that he's wholly responsible for. Twice. And he doesn't even get mad for more than five minutes. This is not someone who's going to examine the idea of "sign on with the enemy" too terribly carefully, provided Shepard is sincere enough in endorsing it. Which the VS would be aware of.

[paul165]

I could see the VS and/or Vega going against Shepard if his/her decisions and choices threaten Alliance interests and humanity's interests (say for example, delaying the retaking of Earth in order to help out other species instead of humanity) or even accepting squadmates onto the Normandy that the VS and Alliance considers to be enemies (taking in Miranda and Jacob back into the squad).

I also favour this as an idea especially if you can do so initially and the problems develop over the course of the game

It would also be great if the same conversation tree allowed you to choose your XO - indeed that could be the trigger for the final straw choosing either Operative Lawson or the VS as second in command.