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[ChaplainTappman]

Sepewrath wrote...

Would anyone really not assume the Cerberus was behind it? It was more likely to be them than the Collectors. Also TIM fabricated intel that Cerberus was behind it and that Horizon was next to bait the VS there.

There's really no reason for someone in-universe (that is, not a relatively omniscient observer like us) to assume it's Cerberus, other than TIM's disinformation. It doesn't really fit in their ideology. Cerberus is certainly amoral, but everything they do is in furtherance of their goals. What would they gain by stealing colonies?

[Siansonea]

Looks like I struck a nerve.

[Siansonea]

Metopholus wrote...

I'm amazed this topic keeps finding it's way to the front page.

simple solution:it was a badly set up and executed scene by Bioware. complete with terrible writing. chalk it up to a bad day and move on with things.

i used to have strong feelings on the matter. not anymore really. Ash/Kaidan's reactions were hated because they were the only characters to have them that strongly. even though all of Shep's friends should have acted in a similar fashion given the circumstances surrounding Shep's return. yet few actually do. that makes the VS reaction stick out more. they even send Shep an email ( only If romanced i assume) saying they overreacted. i don't intend to invest any real effort into "restoring trust" but if they are sensible i will let bygones be bygones.

my last post as i have nothing more to say on the matter.

That's very reasonable. What are you doing in this thread?

[ChaplainTappman]

jreezy wrote...
That makes me believe that the VS had no intention of listening to anything Shepard said. Once they learned Shepard was with Cerberus that was the only thing on their mind. To just assume that people like Garrus and Tali have just joined Cerberus is a little insulting. I guess the VS forgot that people are allowed to do favors for a friend. Tali has a legitimate reason for not joining Shepard but she puts aside her vendetta because she knows what Shepard is doing is important. No matter how much she hates Cerberus she trusts Shepard more so she joined. I don't mind that the VS didn't want to join I just wish they showed the amount of trust in Shepard that Tali and Garrus do.

Or consider what Dr. Chakwas says. "I trust your dealings with Cerberus will be ethical. I trust you, Commander."

[Seboist]

paul165 wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The whole Horizon encounter was bizarre. The VS ends up being more anti-Cerberus and angry at Shepard than the aliens from from the old crew. That they seriously think Cerberus was behind the abductions was LOL funny.

Would anyone really not assume the Cerberus was behind it? It was more likely to be them than the Collectors. Also TIM fabricated intel that Cerberus was behind it and that Horizon was next to bait the VS there.

Well except for the Collector bodies all over the place and the husks and the fact that Cerberus has never done anything that blatant and would have no reason to attack large human colonies or that a Cerberus ship just saved them....

But yes apart from that no reason at all not to suspect Cerberus:innocent:

It amazes me that the VS was able to keep a straight face on while telling such a blatant shameless lie.

I can't wait to see Kaidan's reaction in ME3 when my femshep tells him she thought "their night" didn't mean jack **** to her and that she just saw him as a penis with a life support system.

[redbaron76]

You seem to forget that Alliance recieved report from tim himself that cerberus might be behind colony abductions, tu ensure that vs was on horizon as a bait for collectors or did you forget that.

[Siansonea]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

jreezy wrote...
That makes me believe that the VS had no intention of listening to anything Shepard said. Once they learned Shepard was with Cerberus that was the only thing on their mind. To just assume that people like Garrus and Tali have just joined Cerberus is a little insulting. I guess the VS forgot that people are allowed to do favors for a friend. Tali has a legitimate reason for not joining Shepard but she puts aside her vendetta because she knows what Shepard is doing is important. No matter how much she hates Cerberus she trusts Shepard more so she joined. I don't mind that the VS didn't want to join I just wish they showed the amount of trust in Shepard that Tali and Garrus do.

Or consider what Dr. Chakwas says. "I trust your dealings with Cerberus will be ethical. I trust you, Commander."

She'll have to mention that at her own court-martial hearing, I think.

[Ryzaki]

The court martial interrupted by the Reaper attack?

Yeah that'll be the most epic "Oh yeah and while I was there I was saving your asses from THOSE."

[Seboist]

redbaron76 wrote...

You seem to forget that Alliance recieved report from tim himself that cerberus might be behind colony abductions, tu ensure that vs was on horizon as a bait for collectors or did you forget that.

If the Alliance seriously believed that a group of 150 operatives were abducting hundreds of thousands of colonists then well... I can see why TIM splintered from them

Modifié par Seboist, 13 août 2011 - 11:15 .

[redbaron76]

Where do people get the Idea that there is of loss of trust with VS. I mean VS calls shepard some names. ANd then they send an email appologising for those word. I feel that there is no need to regain VS trust since it was never lost.

[Ryzaki]

redbaron76 wrote...

Where do people get the Idea that there is of loss of trust with VS. I mean VS calls shepard some names. ANd then they send an email appologising for those word. I feel that there is no need to regain VS trust since it was never lost.

Wrong. 

You only getan apology if you romanced them. For those like me who didn't you get squat. 

[redbaron76]

Well I feel sorry for people who did not romance VS then.

[ChaplainTappman]

jreezy wrote...

Exactly. Dr. Chakwas trusts me enough that even though I'm working for Cerberus she knows that I won't stoop to their level of ethics. When I get the job done it'll be the way I feel is best, not Cerberus's way.

That's even assuming Shepard's working "for" Cerberus. I don't know about you, but my Shepard starts working to dismantle Cerberus from the word go. And seeing as how my Shepard's still a Spectre, that'll be be a short court martial. "I stole their ship, I turned two of their greatest agents against them, I gave you intelligence that's damning to them. The resources they didn't spend on the ship, they spent on me, so they're capabilities are severely diminished. Oh, and I can do all that without your prior permission because I'm a Spectre. See you guys later."

[redbaron76]

Big question I have is the trial going to be millitary tribunal, or a bunch of politicians looking to railroad shepard.

[ChaplainTappman]

redbaron76 wrote...

Big question I have is the trial going to be millitary tribunal, or a bunch of politicians looking to railroad shepard.

Yes.

[ladyvader]

redbaron76 wrote...

Where do people get the Idea that there is of loss of trust with VS. I mean VS calls shepard some names. ANd then they send an email appologising for those word. I feel that there is no need to regain VS trust since it was never lost.

You only get a message if the VS was Shepard's LI.  If Shepard was single or with Liara you don't get squat from them when it comes to an apology.  

[redbaron76]

Well Liara does not accuse shepard of being a traitor and, Liara is not on horizon. And in those cases well there was only friendship with VS.

[Siansonea]

redbaron76 wrote...

Well Liara does not accuse shepard of being a traitor and, Liara is not on horizon. And in those cases well there was only friendship with VS.

Liara's the one who gave your body to Cerberus in the first place.

[Wynne]

1136342t54 wrote...

Actually the Alliance was trying to do something about this. If you played Arrival before you did the SM Hackett will tell Shepard how Alliance ships investigating these attacks have been dissappearing and were attempting to figure out how to combat the attackers.

The attempt is admirable, but it wasn't successful and likely wouldn't have been. Even if it was, that would be cold comfort to the many people who died before they got a ship through that was in decent enough shape to get to the Collectors. But when you consider the upgrades that just barely save the Normandy from destruction, you have to think the Alliance too would've lost a lot of people long before they ever were successful.

I love Hackett, but he's stuck behind red tape at times. Anderson, too.

1136342t54 wrote... The problem is the VS at that time had a small amount of info to work on regarding shepards true motives. To the VS Shepard is supposedly alive after 2 years and working with Cerberus. Now that could mean many things. One possibility is that Shepard was never dead and worse was working with Cerberus.
...
Technically the VS was trying to find out what was behind the missing colonies. The problem was the low amount of information they had not because they didn't want to. If Cerberus gave them the option to work with the group and find out what happened with the missing colonies they would likely say no simply because they are Alliance Marines and it would be a blatant betrayal to do this. Ashley definitely wouldn't because of her family history.

I know they only had a small amount of info, which is why I don't hate or dislike or really blame them for what they said. But my first Shepard had a full Paragon bar. She *always* tried to do the right thing, and the VS knew that. When Garrus and Tali and Anderson see you again, they react with joy that you're alive; they give you the benefit of the doubt about what you did. The VS's reaction is in pretty stark contrast to that, and like iakus, I felt that having seen what I did about Kahoku and Toombs, they should've kinda known better. I think they did, deep down, but they were just so shaken at seeing you that they reacted strongly in the moment.

I actually forgave Ash a bit more easily, because she's naturally hot-headed and yeah, she's got military history issues. From mild-mannered Kaidan it was somewhat harder to take.

I would be understanding with the VS in ME3 up until the point where one of them showed up in Shepard's face in to throw a lot of blame around. If that happened--and I'm not expecting it, but if it did--there would definitely be a harsh exchange of words. If they defend you at trial, though, I think that would be the easiest way to restore trust; show the faith that they didn't show you in ME2.

1136342t54 wrote...

The VS will likely see it from Shepard's side when they become a Spectre. They never truly had the experience of a Spectre to understand that the lines between friend and foe get blurry.

Hmm, I think you're right; that's an interesting thought. Not having that comforting red tape in place anymore must be freeing and terrifying at the same time, especially for Ash. I bet they'll both learn from it.

iakus wrote...

It''s understandable that others are suspicious of Shepard. But I'm only concerned about one person: the VS who after seeing me avenge Kahoku, hearing Toombs' story etc, they should know better that my Shep would never willingly work for Cerberus unless there was something huge going down. Duress. mind control, deception, I could handle those reasonings. But treason? It's the absolute wrong reasoning to go down for my Shepard, at least. Epic writing fail.

I really appreciated that from Tali. That encounter made me feel like she really gets Shepard. And I fully agree that the VS should've assumed you had no choice, not that you had betrayed the Alliance. Horizon was hard to swallow for a number of reasons.

jreezy wrote...

Very well put Wynne. I like all of this.

Thank you.

ChaplainTappman wrote...

I only feel like this is an issue with Kaidan. Ash is hurt (understandable, since the tech to bring back the dead generally doesn't exist), and suspicious when she finds out about Shepard's Cerberus connection (also understandable, considering it's Cerberus). But she's pretty reserved; "I don't trust Cerberus, and it worries me that you do," or something to that effect.

Kaidan, on the other hand, flat out calls Shepard a traitor. Twice. Even the message he sends to you if you romanced him doesn't give me the impression that he doesn't really believe that and was just speaking emotionally. No matter whether the real world or in game, I don't take kindly to people questioning my integrity.

You make a solid point. I more often saved Kaidan than Ashley, and Ashley was half the time a friend, so I guess I mostly think of Kaidan when I think of the VS. "You betrayed the Alliance, you betrayed me!"

I feel the same--I can have someone question a lot of things about me and not bat an eye, but my integrity... no. I guess it hit home with me, especially since he follows it up with a "also Cerberus might be manipulating you to think it's the Reapers when it's really them!" He words it more harshly than Ash, and I can understand why that would occur to him, but it still felt like he was insulting Shepard's intelligence there. Maybe it's the voice, but somehow it felt more fair coming from Ash than Kaidan.

Quething wrote...

I don't think Garrus' presence means much. His devotion to Shepard is a known fact to more folks than just the Shadow Broker. Shep can convince him to abandon his principles, his driving force and his most tightly-held deeply-sworn promises to the people he was taught his entire life that he's wholly responsible for. Twice. And he doesn't even get mad for more than five minutes. This is not someone who's going to examine the idea of "sign on with the enemy" too terribly carefully, provided Shepard is sincere enough in endorsing it. Which the VS would be aware of.

Yeah, I think the VS might well see Garrus and Tali the same way they did in ME1--as needing leading. Even though that is no longer true, the VS hasn't seen enough of them to realize that they are MUCH stronger than before, having led squads of their own. They probably think Garrus and Tali didn't make informed choices.

Ryzaki wrote...

The court martial interrupted by the Reaper attack?

Yeah that'll be the most epic "Oh yeah and while I was there I was saving your asses from THOSE."

I've had a nice daydream or two about that.

ChaplainTappman wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Exactly.
Dr. Chakwas trusts me enough that even though I'm working for Cerberus
she knows that I won't stoop to their level of ethics. When I get the
job done it'll be the way I feel is best, not Cerberus's
way.

That's even assuming Shepard's working "for" Cerberus. I
don't know about you, but my Shepard starts working to dismantle
Cerberus from the word go. And seeing as how my Shepard's still a
Spectre, that'll be be a short court martial. "I stole their ship, I
turned two of their greatest agents against them, I gave you
intelligence that's damning to them. The resources they didn't spend on
the ship, they spent on me, so their capabilities are severely
diminished. Oh, and I can do all that without your prior permission
because I'm a Spectre. See you guys later."

Yup. Pure win, right there.

They so need to let us do that.

[Iakus]

Metopholus wrote...

I'm amazed this topic keeps finding it's way to the front page.

simple solution:it was a badly set up and executed scene by Bioware. complete with terrible writing. chalk it up to a bad day and move on with things.

I agree it's really, really bad writing.  My fear is it'sa harbinger of things to come.  A sign of "you chose wrong" from Bioware if you decided to befriend/romance them.  Because let's face it, none of the other romances are going to have to "win back" their paramours.  They''re not likely to have any "trust" issues.  That suggests one of three things:

1) The VS is going to get some truly incredible and emotional scens and storylines, beyond any other squadmate 

2) It's going to be brushed off as a nothing incident

3) Bioware is going to continue to screw with the characters and the relationship with Shepard, rendering him or her unrecognizable for ME3

1 is unlikely, as there'd be inevitable howls from fans of other characters.  2 is probably the best I can hope for.  3 is the most likely, because the VS wasn't as "edgy" or "awesome" as the ME2 crew or Wrex.

i used to have strong feelings on the matter. not anymore really. Ash/Kaidan's reactions were hated because they were the only characters to have them that strongly. even though all of Shep's friends should have acted in a similar fashion given the circumstances surrounding Shep's return. yet few actually do. that makes the VS reaction stick out more. they even send Shep an email ( only If romanced i assume) saying they overreacted. i don't intend to invest any real effort into "restoring trust" but if they are sensible i will let bygones be bygones.

my last post as i have nothing more to say on the matter.

I still haven't forgiven Bioware for the scene.  I can understand the reasoning behind it, but it's so badly executed it makes me fear for ME3 and any further tinkering that will be done to the characters.  I fear that they may have killed the fanbase for the VS with this scene.  Which would be a terrible shame.

[ChaplainTappman]

Everything Wynne said.

The only two things I want out of ME3:

I want to be able to basically pull a Kanye at Shepard's trial. "I'm real happy for you, judge, and Imma let you finish, but I'm a Spectre. Peace out."

I want to be able to punch the turian Council member in the face.

Seriously. The rest of the game can be Space Invaders for all I care if I get those two things.