1476 réponses à ce sujet

[AVPen]

redbaron76 wrote...

But they still are just words. And by working for cerberus is treason. Unless you guys can provide proof of orders for shepard to go undercover it is legaly defined as treason. And we all know that shepard is not working undercover , he actually got killed in line of duty. He was rebuilt still is alliance soldier and is not a clone. Cerberus are traitors and work for the reapers and last time i checked reapers are still the enemy. And if working for the allies of enemy is not treason please tell me what is.

Which, to pardon my language, has absolutely jacksh*t to do with Shepard's situation with Cerberus in ME2 or even Cerberus as they exist and are presented in ME2 because that particular plot point HASN'T F***ING HAPPENED YET IN THE STORY. <_<

[Iakus]

redbaron76 wrote...

But they still are just words. And by working for cerberus is treason. Unless you guys can provide proof of orders for shepard to go undercover it is legaly defined as treason. And we all know that shepard is not working undercover , he actually got killed in line of duty. He was rebuilt still is alliance soldier and is not a clone. Cerberus are traitors and work for the reapers and last time i checked reapers are still the enemy. And if working for the allies of enemy is not treason please tell me what is.

First,  Shepard was allied with Cerberus but never formally worked for them.  I distinction I admit even I also fail to make from time to time.  But despite the fact that Shepard used Cerberus equipment, worked alongside Cerberus personel, and held meetings with the Ilusive Man, Shepard was never a member of Cerberus.  Some may call that semantics, but I think that's a big difference.  Think of TIM as a CI.  A very wealthy and powerful CI...

In addition, Shepard can get his Spectreship back, with the Council having full knowledge that Shepard is working with Cerberus in the Terminus.  Given that and the fact that Shepard is allowed to leave the Presidium  and not end up in a holding cell speaks volumes of the Council giving tacit approval of Shepard's activities, including the human Councilor and ambassador.  Also, they told him he didn't have to file reports 

Most importantly, The VS's words mean that they believe Shepard willingly joined Cerberus.  This can be a catagorically ridiculous claim, based on actions in ME1.  This shows an uncharactaristic lack of trust in thisd case.  Thus words mean things.  in this case they mean that ME1 actions don't mean squat.

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...

First,  Shepard was allied with Cerberus but never formally worked for them.  I distinction I admit even I also fail to make from time to time.  But despite the fact that Shepard used Cerberus equipment, worked alongside Cerberus personel, and held meetings with the Ilusive Man, Shepard was never a member of Cerberus.  Some may call that semantics, but I think that's a big difference.  Think of TIM as a CI.  A very wealthy and powerful CI...

In addition, Shepard can get his Spectreship back, with the Council having full knowledge that Shepard is working with Cerberus in the Terminus.  Given that and the fact that Shepard is allowed to leave the Presidium  and not end up in a holding cell speaks volumes of the Council giving tacit approval of Shepard's activities, including the human Councilor and ambassador.  Also, they told him he didn't have to file reports 

That's true. Whats also true is that the Council didn't want Shepard to operate and Citadel space, make their activities known or basically do anything that could make it known what Shepard has been doing. What I get from that is that the Council does not want anyone else to know that Shepard is alive and is working with Cerberus. No matter how you spin it its going to sound wrong when the public gets a hold of the info. Actually Shepard isn't even supposed to be on the Citadel after that meeting. Remember that is in Citadel space.

Most importantly, The VS's words mean that they believe Shepard willingly joined Cerberus.  This can be a catagorically ridiculous claim, based on actions in ME1.  This shows an uncharactaristic lack of trust in thisd case.  Thus words mean things.  in this case they mean that ME1 actions don't mean squat.

Didn't shepard willingly work with Cerberus? It was Shepard's choice and it is pretty difficult to make the distinction right after a battlefield situation.

Also that doesn't mean a lack of trust. It shows that the VS is willing to believe shepard is willing to do anything to defeat the Reapers. Remember the VS (or Ashley just says) that Cerberus could be using Shepard's belief in the Reapers as a way to manipulate Shepard. 

[1136342t54_]

Also I believe Ashley and possibly Kaidan said "I trust you Commander I don't trust Cerberus or what they stand for." or at least something like that.

[1136342t54_]

Actually look at this vid and watch it at 2:47. Ash says "I'd like to believe you Commander but I don't trust Cerberus."

[Iakus]

1136342t54 wrote...

That's true. Whats also true is that the Council didn't want Shepard to operate and Citadel space, make their activities known or basically do anything that could make it known what Shepard has been doing. What I get from that is that the Council does not want anyone else to know that Shepard is alive and is working with Cerberus. No matter how you spin it its going to sound wrong when the public gets a hold of the info. Actually Shepard isn't even supposed to be on the Citadel after that meeting. Remember that is in Citadel space.

True this could be embaressing to the Council, but it doesn't eliminate the facts that 

1) They allowed SHepard to arrive and leave without incident, when they could have had a dozen C-Sec officers there to arreest him

2) They gave Shepard back his Spectre status, even as a symbolic gesture.  Remember Spectres=best of the best, only about a hundred in existence, Shepard the only human.

These alone show a greater degree of trust in Shepard than the VS showed.

Also that doesn't mean a lack of trust. It shows that the VS is willing to believe shepard is willing to do anything to defeat the Reapers. Remember the VS (or Ashley just says) that Cerberus could be using Shepard's belief in the Reapers as a way to manipulate Shepard. 

Thus why I said they believe that shepard joined Cerberus.  Which even renegade Shepards don't do.  And paragons would flat out refuse.  

Shepard does work with Cerberus.  More or less willingly.  Paragons less so.  It's the "willingness" of "All the choices are bad, I just picked the least bad"  The VS reaction made it sound like Shepard's willingness was along the lines of "you know what?  You guys are A-okay in my book" When the VS really should know better.

That line of Ash's was the only part of the whole scene that made any kind of sense.  A pity it was only one line.  If her arguement had been based around it, the whole scene would have been much much better.

[Iakus]

1136342t54 wrote...

Actually look at this vid and watch it at 2:47. Ash says "I'd like to believe you Commander but I don't trust Cerberus."

"I'd like to believe you" (but because you're working with Cerberus, I don't)  Heck the asari Caouncilor's We believe that you believe" was better than that 

As opposed to:

"I'd like to help you, Commander, but I don't trust Cerberus"

"I believe you, Commander,  but I can't work with Cerberus" 

"I'd like to believe you, Commander, but I think Cerberus is manipulating you"

"I'd like to help you, Commander, but I'm still Alliance.  I have other duties I can't walk away from"

Or other variations.  

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...

True this could be embaressing to the Council, but it doesn't eliminate the facts that 

1) They allowed SHepard to arrive and leave without incident, when they could have had a dozen C-Sec officers there to arreest him

2) They gave Shepard back his Spectre status, even as a symbolic gesture.  Remember Spectres=best of the best, only about a hundred in existence, Shepard the only human.

These alone show a greater degree of trust in Shepard than the VS showed.

Well the Council mostly trust Shepard like they do any Spectre. They are likely used to Spectres working with groups like Cerberus but since Shepard is so famous they would rather keep his death a secret. The Council doesn't have the luxury not trust Shepard who saved their lives. If they had a problem with Spectres working with criminals and terrorists then there wouldn't be many Spectres lol.
 

Thus why I said they believe that shepard joined Cerberus.  Which even renegade Shepards don't do.  And paragons would flat out refuse.  

Shepard does work with Cerberus.  More or less willingly.  Paragons less so.  It's the "willingness" of "All the choices are bad, I just picked the least bad"  The VS reaction made it sound like Shepard's willingness was along the lines of "you know what?  You guys are A-okay in my book" When the VS really should know better.

That line of Ash's was the only part of the whole scene that made any kind of sense.  A pity it was only one line.  If her arguement had been based around it, the whole scene would have been much much better.

Ash (nor I believe Kaidan) ever specifically said they thought Shepard joined Cerberus. From the Horizon convo they just been getting rumors and reports that Shepard was likely working for Cerberus. Info that the Illusive Man purposely sent out. Now that Shepard is their on the planet not denying the rumors (Which is BWs fault you never got the option to say your working with not for Cerberus) it would be a bit difficult to not have that in your mind. 

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...
"I'd like to believe you" (but because you're working with Cerberus, I don't)  Heck the asari Caouncilor's We believe that you believe" was better than that 

As opposed to:

"I'd like to help you, Commander, but I don't trust Cerberus"

"I believe you, Commander,  but I can't work with Cerberus" 

"I'd like to believe you, Commander, but I think Cerberus is manipulating you"

"I'd like to help you, Commander, but I'm still Alliance.  I have other duties I can't walk away from"

Or other variations.  

I check the vid again and that line was right after Shep said that the Collectors were working with the Reapers. Ash didn't trust Shep when he said that because of him working with Cerberus. Remember she thinks that Cerberus has been lying and manipulating him.

[Iakus]

1136342t54 wrote...

Well the Council mostly trust Shepard like they do any Spectre. They are likely used to Spectres working with groups like Cerberus but since Shepard is so famous they would rather keep his death a secret. The Council doesn't have the luxury not trust Shepard who saved their lives. If they had a problem with Spectres working with criminals and terrorists then there wouldn't be many Spectres lol.

Umm, the turian Councilor thinks Shepard is crazy.  The asari thinks Saen's mind controlling Shep from beyond the grave.  Their standard fro Spectres must have really dropped:P

Though Anderson an make Shep a Spectre again on his own authority.  And based on less information than Shep gives the VS on Horizon.
 

Ash (nor I believe Kaidan) ever specifically said they thought Shepard joined Cerberus. From the Horizon convo they just been getting rumors and reports that Shepard was likely working for Cerberus. Info that the Illusive Man purposely sent out. Now that Shepard is their on the planet not denying the rumors (Which is BWs fault you never got the option to say your working with not for Cerberus) it would be a bit difficult to not have that in your mind. 

Thus lines like "How could you just turn your back on all of us?  You betrayed the Alliance.  Anderson.  You betrayed me.

And that's after Shepard specifically says he doesn't answer to Cerberus.

Modifié par iakus, 15 août 2011 - 03:13 .

[Iakus]

1136342t54 wrote...

I check the vid again and that line was right after Shep said that the Collectors were working with the Reapers. Ash didn't trust Shep when he said that because of him working with Cerberus. Remember she thinks that Cerberus has been lying and manipulating him.

Just watched that video too.  In that same sentance, Shepard pointed out that it was the Collectors attacking the colony.  not Cerberus.  And Garrus of all people is talking about her being so emotional she's not seeing the big picture.

I'f Garrus thinks you're overreacting.  You're overreacting 

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...

Umm, the turian Councilor thinks Shepard is crazy.  The asari thinks Saen's mind controlling Shep from beyond the grave.  Their standard fro Spectres must have really dropped:P

Though Anderson an make Shep a Spectre again on his own authority.  And based on less information than Shep gives the VS on Horizon.

 
*shrugs* This is the same Council that shep risked hundreds or thousands of lives for. Why wouldn't they give him the benefit of the doubt?

Like I said earlier in this thread Anderson went through the same thing Shep went through. Remember the Council didn't believe him about what Saren did and the Council didn't believe Shepard about the Reapers. Also this is the same man who blindly believed Shepard that his dreams were actually reality and honestly there were no evidence suggesting the Reapers were real at the time only sheps dreams. Even Sovereign could have been assumed to be a Geth Dreadnought simply because the Geth are advanced as hell.

Thus lines like "How could you just turn your back on all of us?  You betrayed the Alliance.  Anderson.  You betrayed me.

And that's after Shepard specifically says he doesn't answer to Cerberus.

They did say that but you claimed that they didn't trust Shepard. How does this support your argument?

Sure they said that but technically it isn't false. Its based on their own knowledge of Shepard not going back to the Council or Alliance but work with Cerberus. They don't know that Shepard actually spoke to them regarding the Reapers and Cerberus. Its likely they would be less antagonistic towards Shep if they knew about it.

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...

Just watched that video too.  In that same sentance, Shepard pointed out that it was the Collectors attacking the colony.  not Cerberus.  And Garrus of all people is talking about her being so emotional she's not seeing the big picture.

I'f Garrus thinks you're overreacting.  You're overreacting 

Remember Garrus trusts Shepard more than he trusts himself.

Garrus likely understands a lot more than the VS does that sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and do some bad things to get the job done. 

[Iakus]

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...

Like I said earlier in this thread Anderson went through the same thing Shep went through. Remember the Council didn't believe him about what Saren did and the Council didn't believe Shepard about the Reapers. Also this is the same man who blindly believed Shepard that his dreams were actually reality and honestly there were no evidence suggesting the Reapers were real at the time only sheps dreams. Even Sovereign could have been assumed to be a Geth Dreadnought simply because the Geth are advanced as hell.
[/quote]

The VS believed this too, to the point of becoming fugitives of the Alliance right alongside Shepard.

[quote]
Thus lines like "How could you just turn your back on all of us?  You betrayed the Alliance.  Anderson.  You betrayed me.

And that's after Shepard specifically says he doesn't answer to Cerberus.
[/quote]

They did say that but you claimed that they didn't trust Shepard. How does this support your argument?

Sure they said that but technically it isn't false. Its based on their own knowledge of Shepard not going back to the Council or Alliance but work with Cerberus. They don't know that Shepard actually spoke to them regarding the Reapers and Cerberus. Its likely they would be less antagonistic towards Shep if they knew about it.

[/quote]

It shows that despite everything Shepard may have done in ME1, pro-Council, pro-Alliance, however many Cerberus bases you may have destroyed together, any acts you may have done, amount to nothing. The VS thinks you'd throw it all away in favor of Cerberus.  That your loyalties are so easilly swayed.

Notice in the video she doesn't ask why Shepard's working with them.  Shep has to actually volunteer that information.  Nor does she ask Shep to come back to the Alliance with her.  It's assumed that he's a traitor.  She doesn't ask for any verificiation or evidence of his claims.  She assumes it's fake.

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...
The VS believed this too, to the point of becoming fugitives of the Alliance right alongside Shepard.

I'm talking about the beginning of the game. Even the VS didn't say they believed shep or not.

It shows that despite everything Shepard may have done in ME1, pro-Council, pro-Alliance, however many Cerberus bases you may have destroyed together, any acts you may have done, amount to nothing. The VS thinks you'd throw it all away in favor of Cerberus.  That your loyalties are so easilly swayed.

The VS never really seemed to believe Shep was really loyal to Cerberus at all. The VS pretty much said that Shep working with Cerberus because they say the Reapers was responsible for Horizon isn't that believable and it worries them that Shep believes Cerberus. They do pretty much throw around that they are more loyal then Shep and blah blah which is both wrong and right. That's pretty much another way bioware messed up the convo by moving the reasons for anger around making the VS sound understandable but at the same time emotional and not willing to see reason at the time.

Notice in the video she doesn't ask why Shepard's working with them.  Shep has to actually volunteer that information.  Nor does she ask Shep to come back to the Alliance with her.  It's assumed that he's a traitor.  She doesn't ask for any verificiation or evidence of his claims.  She assumes it's fake.

Ash pretty much talks about rumors that shep is working for Cerberus but never exactly accused him of working with cerberus. 

[AVPen]

1136342t54 wrote...

iakus wrote...

It shows that despite everything Shepard may have done in ME1, pro-Council, pro-Alliance, however many Cerberus bases you may have destroyed together, any acts you may have done, amount to nothing. The VS thinks you'd throw it all away in favor of Cerberus.  That your loyalties are so easilly swayed. 

The VS never really seemed to believe Shep was really loyal to Cerberus at all. The VS pretty much said that Shep working with Cerberus because they say the Reapers was responsible for Horizon isn't that believable and it worries them that Shep believes Cerberus. They do pretty much throw around that they are more loyal then Shep and blah blah which is both wrong and right. That's pretty much another way bioware messed up the convo by moving the reasons for anger around making the VS sound understandable but at the same time emotional and not willing to see reason at the time.

Actually, only Ashley says that it worries her that Shepard may trust Cerberus's word - Kaidan, on the other hand, never says he's worried for Shepard (maybe he does if he's been romanced???) and flat out says that Cerberus is manipulating Shepard with threats of Reapers.

[1136342t54_]

AVPen wrote...
Actually, only Ashley says that it worries her that Shepard may trust Cerberus's word - Kaidan, on the other hand, never says he's worried for Shepard (maybe he does if he's been romanced???) and flat out says that Cerberus is manipulating Shepard with threats of Reapers.

Okay then that's similar to what I said a bit earlier in the thread that the VS in general is worried that Cerberus is manipulating Shepard.

[Iakus]

1136342t54 wrote...

I'm talking about the beginning of the game. Even the VS didn't say they believed shep or not.

True enough.  But the VS definitely believes by the end of ME1.  To the point thwere they're willing to throw their career and possibly thier lives away over it.

The VS never really seemed to believe Shep was really loyal to Cerberus at all. The VS pretty much said that Shep working with Cerberus because they say the Reapers was responsible for Horizon isn't that believable and it worries them that Shep believes Cerberus. They do pretty much throw around that they are more loyal then Shep and blah blah which is both wrong and right. That's pretty much another way bioware messed up the convo by moving the reasons for anger around making the VS sound understandable but at the same time emotional and not willing to see reason at the time.

Well I'll agree that Bioware messed up the conversation...

But towards the end of the conversation:

"It doesn't matter.  I still know where my loyalties lie.  I'm an Alliance soldier.  It's in my blood" is a pretty clear condemnation of Shepard.  That Shepard's has switched his own loyalties if indeed he had any to begin with.  No possibility that Shepard is still loyal to the Alliance

This coming from Ash, who in ME 1 after stealing the Normandy:

Ash:  Skipper?
Shepard: You don't have to call me that.  I'm a traitor now.  I probably shouldn't even be wearing this uniform
Ash: We had to do this, Shepard.  You know that.  There was no other way.

Like I said, she never asks how Shepard knows the Reapers are involved, or that Cerberus wasn't.  She just assumes

Ash pretty much talks about rumors that shep is working for Cerberus but never exactly accused him of working with cerberus. 

Pick the neutral option when she asks why you never contacted her:

Shepard:  "Not my choice.  I spent two years in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me"
Ash.  "You're with Cerberus now?  Garrus too?  I can't believe the reports were right."

Plus there's the whole, "you turned your back on us and betrayed everything we stood for thing":P

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...

True enough.  But the VS definitely believes by the end of ME1.  To the point thwere they're willing to throw their career and possibly thier lives away over it.

True

Well I'll agree that Bioware messed up the conversation...

But towards the end of the conversation:

"It doesn't matter.  I still know where my loyalties lie.  I'm an Alliance soldier.  It's in my blood" is a pretty clear condemnation of Shepard.  That Shepard's has switched his own loyalties if indeed he had any to begin with.  No possibility that Shepard is still loyal to the Alliance

This coming from Ash, who in ME 1 after stealing the Normandy:

Ash:  Skipper?
Shepard: You don't have to call me that.  I'm a traitor now.  I probably shouldn't even be wearing this uniform
Ash: We had to do this, Shepard.  You know that.  There was no other way.

Like I said, she never asks how Shepard knows the Reapers are involved, or that Cerberus wasn't.  She just assumes

True thats why I said BW messed up the convo. Even shep's responses aren't satisfactory for me. Shepard never tells her how the Reapers were involved. Ash doesn't have to actually ask Shepard to tell her info that could help the Alliance.

Pick the neutral option when she asks why you never contacted her:

Shepard:  "Not my choice.  I spent two years in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me"
Ash.  "You're with Cerberus now?  Garrus too?  I can't believe the reports were right."

Plus there's the whole, "you turned your back on us and betrayed everything we stood for thing":P

Well combine the reports, Anderson's stone walling and the Horizon attack which was assumed to have Cerberus involvement it would be pretty difficult for the VS to not connect the dots and get that answer. 

[Siansonea]

Yes, how dare anyone question your integrity, Shepard. How dare anyone assume the worst, when you show up flying the Cerberus flag. Yes, we're all supposed to just wave all that away, Because It's Shepard™, who is apparently immune to Indoctrination, propaganda, stupidity, mind control not otherwise specified, douchebaggery, evil, mental illness, and all the other things that might contribute to her signing on with Cerberus. Nope, we're supposed to assume that she's with them "for the right reasons", and not even question how it all looks, or do so only in the most deferential tones. Honestly, the narcissism is palpable. The epic snit over a few mild rebukes is laughably overwrought. I don't know what you all will do when someone REALLY takes you to task for your questionable decisions in life, if this is your reaction to a mild version of it in a video game. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 15 août 2011 - 04:01 .

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yes, how dare anyone question your integrity, Shepard. How dare anyone assume the worst, when you show up flying the Cerberus flag. Yes, we're all supposed to just wave all that away, Because It's Shepard™, who is apparently immune to Indoctrination, propaganda, stupidity, mind control not otherwise specified, douchebaggery, evil, mental illness, and all the other things that might contribute to her signing on with Cerberus. Nope, we're supposed to assume that she's with them "for the right reasons", and not even question how it all looks, or do so only in the most deferential tones. Honestly, the narcissism is palpable. The epic snit over a few mild rebukes is laughably overwrought. I don't know what you all will do when someone REALLY takes you to task for your questionable decisions in life, if this is your reaction to a mild version of it in a video game. 

"Because Shepard is Shepard"

I prefer to think of it as "Because Shepard was Shepard"

The Shepard who trashed several Cerberus experiments
The Shepard who avenged Admiral Kahoku
The Shepard who stared down the Shadow Broker agent who wanted the Cerberus info which could hurt the Alliance
The Shepard who extracted Corporal Toombs after he trashed another Cerberus base himsef
The Shepard who refiused to deal with the Tera Firma Party.
The Shepard who saved the Council when he could have just as easily let them die.

Yes, that Commander Shepard.  You don't have to approve of his actions.  You don't have to sign on (even if he does hold the idiot ball long enough to make the offer) You can think he's gone too far this time.

Heck you can even think he's indoctrinated, manipulated, mind controlled, whatever.  That's not an unreasonable suspicion to have 

But you do owe it to Shepard to ask a few questions before questioning his loyalty/integrity.  Because he's got a documented track record of performing questionable actions, even "traitorous" ones, "for the right reasons"  And be proven right in the end.

Sure, question how it looks.  Question Cerberus' motives.  Question Shepard' mental state.  Question Reaper involvement.  At least then you're asking questions.  Like an investigator is supposed to do.  Just don't assume.

A few mild rebukes?  Ask sopmeone from the military how questioning their patriotism or loyalty would go down.

Modifié par iakus, 15 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yes, how dare anyone question your integrity, Shepard. How dare anyone assume the worst, when you show up flying the Cerberus flag. Yes, we're all supposed to just wave all that away, Because It's Shepard™, who is apparently immune to Indoctrination, propaganda, stupidity, mind control not otherwise specified, douchebaggery, evil, mental illness, and all the other things that might contribute to her signing on with Cerberus. Nope, we're supposed to assume that she's with them "for the right reasons", and not even question how it all looks, or do so only in the most deferential tones. Honestly, the narcissism is palpable. The epic snit over a few mild rebukes is laughably overwrought. I don't know what you all will do when someone REALLY takes you to task for your questionable decisions in life, if this is your reaction to a mild version of it in a video game. 

"Because Shepard is Shepard"

I prefer to think of it as "Because Shepard was Shepard"

The Shepard who trashed several Cerberus experiments
The Shepard who avenged Admiral Kahoku
The Shepard who stared down the Shadow Broker agent who wanted the Cerberus info which could hurt the Alliance
The Shepard who extracted Corporal Toombs after he trashed another Cerberus base himsef
The Shepard who refiused to deal with the Tera Firma Party.
The Shepard who saved the Council when he could have just as easily let them die.

Yes, that Commander Shepard.  You don't have to approve of his actions.  You don't have to sign on (even if he does hold the idiot ball long enough to make the offer) You can think he's gone too far this time.

Heck you can even think he's indoctrinated, manipulated, mind controlled, whatever.  That's not an unreasonable suspicion to have 

But you do owe it to Shepard to ask a few questions before questioning his loyalty/integrity.  Because he's got a documented track record of performing questionable actions, even "traitorous" ones, "for the right reasons"  And be proven right in the end.

Sure, question how it looks.  Question Cerberus' motives.  Question Shepard' mental state.  Question Reaper involvement.  At least then you're asking questions.  Like an investigator is supposed to do.  Just don't assume.

A few mild rebukes?  Ask sopmeone from the military how questioning their patriotism or loyalty would go down.

If that soldier is in the company of a group with a history of killing his fellow soldiers, I have no sympathy for his hurt feelings. Call me implacable, but you don't get to whine about being insulted when you're in the company of people who killed an ADMIRAL and tortured and killed scores of your fellow soldiers. Boo-hoo, Shepard. You want to explain yourself? Go ahead. Don't wait to be asked. If there are extenuating circumstances, why don't you VOLUNTEER that information. You're not a coin-operated answer device, you don't have to wait to be triggered. You can speak up on your own. You can say things like "wait, you don't understand the whole situation". Instead, you say things like "Cerberus is the only ones doing anything", which sure sounds pro-Cerberus to me. Drink Cerberus Kool-aid all you want Shepard, but don't expect everyone to just act like you're not being a massive traitor for getting into bed with them. Because you ARE a traitor to the Alliance on some level, whatever your reasons are. But by all means continue your pity party. I hope you serve refreshments.

And let's look at who "owes" whom what:

Shepard is mysteriously on Horizon after an attack by unknown aliens. Shepard arrives after an unexplained two-year absence in which she was declared dead by the Alliance. She is now clearly acting on her own authority, or Cerberus', but certainly NOT Alliance authority or Council authority. Looks really fishy to me, and it certainly seems to add up to Shepard is a goddamn traitor. But rather than jump to that very obvious conclusion, the VS assumes that Shepard was manipulated into working with Cerberus, because it's better to believe Shepard is stupid than to believe Shepard would knowingly and willingly work with Cerberus by her own choice. Because Cerberus is that evil.

The VS, on the other hand, is acting on Alliance intel and Alliance authority. The VS is helping a human colony arm itself against a possible attack from an unknown enemy by installing anti-aircraft guns. The colony doesn't even want the VS there, but he/she soldiers on and tries to manage the situation as well as he/she can. And the VS is completely alone in the effort. Even Anderson, the one who sent the VS to Horizon in the first place, to investigate a possible Cerberus connection, doesn't give the VS the intel he has about Cerberus, about Shepard working with Cerberus, or even about Shepard being ALIVE.

Yeah, I'm not going to have too much sympathy for the traitor in this scenario.

[paul165]

Very quickly (not that I expect it to make any difference to the conversation)
>>Boo-hoo, Shepard. You want to explain yourself? Go ahead. Don't wait to be asked.<<
Shepard tried (OK poorly but Shepard tried it was incredibly obvious that the VS wasn't listening to anything other than Cerberus). No point in explaining things to people who won't listen

>>Shepard is mysteriously on Horizon after an attack by unknown aliens<<
From which Shepard has just saved you at significant personal risk....

>>Shepard arrives after an unexplained two-year absence in which she was declared dead by the Alliance.<<
Because as Shepard states they were 'in a coma' - tends to prevent people from reporting in and even the VS should be able to work that out!

>>The VS, on the other hand, is acting on Alliance intel and Alliance authority. <<

What authority? The Alliance has no more authority in the Terminus than Cerberus does. Not to mention the 'Alliance intel' was provided by TIM.

>>VS assumes that Shepard was manipulated<<

How generous of them! They assumed that Shepard was an idiot or under duress and rather than make any attempt to help the poor sod they prefer to wave their alleged moral superiority as a flag.

>>Yeah, I'm not going to have too much sympathy for the traitor in this scenario. <<
Shepard has saved the VS at least twice by this point (Eden Prime and Horizon) not to mention the VS is not required to have sympathy or trust or whatever version of this statement you prefer.

The VS is required to investigate

Their entire job on Horizon was to investigate Cerberus - they failed utterly despite being given a co-operative source with access to information about the organisation that the Alliance would kill for. The VS has literally within arms reach a Cerberus cell leader, a major warship and an AI with Cerberus databases. On top of that intelligence goldmine Shepard knows the location of several Cerberus cells and at least one major objective.

What use does the VS make of this intelligence windfall - none what so ever!

If they get interrogated by anyone other than Anderson about the Horizon mission they would have an awful lot of explaining to do for their inexplicable failure to complete their mission despite being given such a gift.

I think to keep this relevant to the original topic this bears repeating:

Do you (or your Shepard) really want someone with a record like that guarding your back or even worse giving orders in your absence?

[1136342t54_]

paul165 wrote...

Very quickly (not that I expect it to make any difference to the conversation)
>>Boo-hoo, Shepard. You want to explain yourself? Go ahead. Don't wait to be asked.<<
Shepard tried (OK poorly but Shepard tried it was incredibly obvious that the VS wasn't listening to anything other than Cerberus). No point in explaining things to people who won't listen

Somewhat understandable. Cerberus has plenty of ways to explain their actions to others.

>>Shepard is mysteriously on Horizon after an attack by unknown aliens<<
From which Shepard has just saved you at significant personal risk....

And? Him being there shows Cerberus involvement.

>>Shepard arrives after an unexplained two-year absence in which she was declared dead by the Alliance.<<
Because as Shepard states they were 'in a coma' - tends to prevent people from reporting in and even the VS should be able to work that out!

Didn't Shep tell the VS that after the VS asked about not contacting them? It was a question answered nothing to get worked up about. Its not like the VS blamed Shep for the coma.

>>The VS, on the other hand, is acting on Alliance intel and Alliance authority. <<

What authority? The Alliance has no more authority in the Terminus than Cerberus does. Not to mention the 'Alliance intel' was provided by TIM.

What difference does this make? The Alliance protect humans and human interests and it was a human colony.

>>VS assumes that Shepard was manipulated<<

How generous of them! They assumed that Shepard was an idiot or under duress and rather than make any attempt to help the poor sod they prefer to wave their alleged moral superiority as a flag.

Shepard works for the same people who are willing to huskify people, brainwash them and possibly put mind control chips in them.  Manipulation isn't out of the question.

>>Yeah, I'm not going to have too much sympathy for the traitor in this scenario. <<
Shepard has saved the VS at least twice by this point (Eden Prime and Horizon) not to mention the VS is not required to have sympathy or trust or whatever version of this statement you prefer.

Depends on the VS. My male shep didn't save Kaidan on Eden Prime. Also the VS seems to say that they trust Shep but not Cerberus.

The VS is required to investigate

Their entire job on Horizon was to investigate Cerberus - they failed utterly despite being given a co-operative source with access to information about the organisation that the Alliance would kill for. The VS has literally within arms reach a Cerberus cell leader, a major warship and an AI with Cerberus databases. On top of that intelligence goldmine Shepard knows the location of several Cerberus cells and at least one major objective.

All unknown to the VS. The VS was suppose to figure out if Cereberus was involved and they now know that since Shep is there. Even if Shepard wanted to tell the VS all about the Cerberus vessel and equipment its highly likely that Miranda would have a fit EDI would be listening in on the info and inform the Illusive Man.

What use does the VS make of this intelligence windfall - none what so ever!

If they get interrogated by anyone other than Anderson about the Horizon mission they would have an awful lot of explaining to do for their inexplicable failure to complete their mission despite being given such a gift.

I think to keep this relevant to the original topic this bears repeating:

Do you (or your Shepard) really want someone with a record like that guarding your back or even worse giving orders in your absence?

You mean someone who has survived fighting Geth, Mercenaries, Cerberus Commandos, Saren and anyother top secret mission they have been on in your absence? Those same people are also Spectres in ME3 and the Council don't pick Spectres lightly you know.

[paul165]

>>All unknown to the VS. The VS was suppose to figure out if Cereberus was involved and they now know that since Shep is there. Even if Shepard wanted to tell the VS all about the Cerberus vessel and equipment its highly likely that Miranda would have a fit EDI would be listening in on the info and inform the Illusive Man.<<

They were supposed to investigate Cerberus and all they got was a Cerberus flagged vessel showing up with Shepard on board. Wonderful investigative work on their part wouldn't you agree?

>>You mean someone who has survived fighting Geth, Mercenaries, Cerberus Commandos, Saren and anyother top secret mission they have been on in your absence? Those same people are also Spectres in ME3 and the Council don't pick Spectres lightly you know.<<

If being a Spectre was about surviving fights Jack would be a Spectre. If somone is to be an XO/Spectre they should have to demonstrate good judgement. The VS doesn't.

I do concede that M!Shep didn't rescue Kaidan on Eden Prime sorry - only combination where rescuing the VS on Eden Prime does not occur though. Regardless that conversation occurs shortly after Shepard has just saved their life again; most people would be at least somewhat grateful but apparently the VS doesn't subscibe to that line of thought.