1476 réponses à ce sujet

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...

The writers

Almost entirely agree. While we now know that the VS trust shep the information that was necessary to convince everyone of this had to be found through Anderson which isn't the best way to find out.

[Iakus]

1136342t54 wrote...

iakus wrote...

I could let it slide if the questioned Shepard's judgement, or if they suspected Shep was being manipulated or controlled (as Anderson indicated) but they accused Shep of disloyalty and betrayal. Strong accusations that can potentially fly in the face of Shepard's past behavior.

I don't think the VS is "ruined forever" nor is Shepard entirely blameless for the situation on Horizon, but such accusations go too far.

 I would say its a bit implied that they accused shepard of disloyalty. I'm not going to necessarily fault them (much) with the betrayal bit since that's what Shepard technically did but they did imply a bit that they were more loyal. Also elektrego raised a good point. The VS report supported Shepard's argument and it seemed that they ultimately believed Shepard was doing this for the right reasons.

Well, betrayal and disloyalty pretty much go hand in hand.  If you betray someone, you're pretty much disloyal by definition.  So when Ash says "You betrayed The Alliance.  Anderson.  You betrayed me" more than implies that Shepard is disloyal to all of the above.  That she thinks Shepard has turned his back on the ideals of the Alliance. And now actually buys into what Cerberus does.  Not just in stopping the Collectors, but every horrific experiment, every murder and assassination they've done.  

And while yes, it looks like the VS ultimately decided that Shepard was right.  The words were still spoken.  There was no followup besides the letter.  And that is cold comfort.  There needed to be another scene.  Or at least a recorded message.  Typed words on a page don't compare to an actual voice for these things.  The letter gives hope for ME3, but doesn't make ME2 any better.

[AVPen]

iakus wrote...

And while yes, it looks like the VS ultimately decided that Shepard was right.  The words were still spoken.  There was no followup besides the letter.  And that is cold comfort.  There needed to be another scene.  Or at least a recorded message.  Typed words on a page don't compare to an actual voice for these things.  The letter gives hope for ME3, but doesn't make ME2 any better.

A letter, which I'd like to point out, is only sent Shepard's way if the VS was romanced.... otherwise, Shepard doesn't hear jack from the VS and all that exists between Shepard and the VS up until ME3 is that lovely encounter on Horizon. <_<

Modifié par AVPen, 16 août 2011 - 04:31 .

[Iakus]

 That just makes ME2 even worse 

[paul165]

elektrego wrote...

some very interesting points

Must have missed that and those points do significantly soften my views about Horizon - most of all that despite the conversation the report submitted was professional.

Thank you for raising these points - will have to find a post Horizon save to speak to Anderson now!

[Rockworm503]

Bah I'm not expecting much here. All I know is if they try to push the blame on me then their going out the airlock.
And neither one better give me lip for not being faithful to them or some BS like that.

Modifié par Rockworm503, 16 août 2011 - 10:01 .

[ChaplainTappman]

elektrego wrote...

Wow, i actually made a difference, I never thought it could happen.

Isn't it shocking when you find someone reasonable on the internet?

[Mresa]

All I want is that I can make the VS understand that Shepard was DEAD and not galloping across the galaxy for two years.

[Siansonea]

jreezy wrote...

So who exactly needs to be doing the restoring of trust here?

As is always the case in these situations, BOTH parties.

[Siansonea]

Mresa wrote...

All I want is that I can make the VS understand that Shepard was DEAD and not galloping across the galaxy for two years.

I'd like to know more about the Lazarus Project myself. Frankly, I'm not convinced that Shepard didn't "come back wrong". She sure seems to have lost a lot of her common sense. Anyone else think Miranda might have fibbed about leaving out the "control chip"? But I don't expect the VS to believe Shepard's story about being unconscious for two years. Clearly they were rescued very soon after the Alchera incident, and if they were technically deceased it could only have been for a short time. After all, if some miracle resurrection technology existed, it would be a big deal, right? Alliance intel would be all over that, and there would be rumors, and people would be going to great lengths to get their hands on this completely game-changing technology. To bring someone back from the dead—it's miraculous. It makes no sense that such tech would be a) completely secret, only in the hands of Cerberus, c) only used on Shepard, a onetime enemy of Cerberus and d) not being exploited for profit by Cerberus, an organization that likes to make money. I mean, that's just silly to think that could ever be the case.

And yeah, I DO blame the writers for the stupidity that is the Lazarus Project. Logic really went out the airlock on that one.

[AVPen]

jreezy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

jreezy wrote...

So who exactly needs to be doing the restoring of trust here?

As is always the case in these situations, BOTH parties.

I don't think it would take too much to restore the trust between them considering Shepard finds out from Anderson that the VS helped confirm Shepard's story when you talk to him after Horizon. The VS reports that Cerberus wasn't behind the abductions so it seems Ashley/Kaidan believe Shepard.

Or it could also mean that there was simply inconclusive proof or a lack of evidence to indicate that Cerberus was involved with the Collectors, while there was plenty of evidence that the Collectors are directly responsible for the human colony attacks (which is exactly what Shepard told Anderson and the VS).

Modifié par AVPen, 16 août 2011 - 04:26 .

[Siansonea]

jreezy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Mresa wrote...

All I want is that I can make the VS understand that Shepard was DEAD and not galloping across the galaxy for two years.

I'd like to know more about the Lazarus Project myself. Frankly, I'm not convinced that Shepard didn't "come back wrong". She sure seems to have lost a lot of her common sense. Anyone else think Miranda might have fibbed about leaving out the "control chip"? But I don't expect the VS to believe Shepard's story about being unconscious for two years. Clearly they were rescued very soon after the Alchera incident, and if they were technically deceased it could only have been for a short time. After all, if some miracle resurrection technology existed, it would be a big deal, right? Alliance intel would be all over that, and there would be rumors, and people would be going to great lengths to get their hands on this completely game-changing technology. To bring someone back from the dead—it's miraculous. It makes no sense that such tech would be a) completely secret, only in the hands of Cerberus, c) only used on Shepard, a onetime enemy of Cerberus and d) not being exploited for profit by Cerberus, an organization that likes to make money. I mean, that's just silly to think that could ever be the case.

And yeah, I DO blame the writers for the stupidity that is the Lazarus Project. Logic really went out the airlock on that one.

Shepard has definitely lost some common sense, His/Her conversation with Dr. Kensom aboard the shuttle shows that.

Inorite?

"We found a Reaper artifact."

"What? Those things are dangerous! How are you not indoctrinated?"

"We took precautions."

"Oh, okay. So how do you know Hackett?"

[1136342t54_]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'd like to know more about the Lazarus Project myself. Frankly, I'm not convinced that Shepard didn't "come back wrong". She sure seems to have lost a lot of her common sense. Anyone else think Miranda might have fibbed about leaving out the "control chip"? But I don't expect the VS to believe Shepard's story about being unconscious for two years. Clearly they were rescued very soon after the Alchera incident, and if they were technically deceased it could only have been for a short time. After all, if some miracle resurrection technology existed, it would be a big deal, right? Alliance intel would be all over that, and there would be rumors, and people would be going to great lengths to get their hands on this completely game-changing technology. To bring someone back from the dead—it's miraculous. It makes no sense that such tech would be a) completely secret, only in the hands of Cerberus, c) only used on Shepard, a onetime enemy of Cerberus and d) not being exploited for profit by Cerberus, an organization that likes to make money. I mean, that's just silly to think that could ever be the case.

And yeah, I DO blame the writers for the stupidity that is the Lazarus Project. Logic really went out the airlock on that one.

No Shepard was dead for likely a month or more. Remember Liara's little comic? The Shadow Broker preserved Shepard's body but it was pretty much dead Cerberus just retrieved it.

Also regarding the project you have to think about it a bit logically. A project like that you can't just have one technology that brings someone back you need dozens or perhaps hundreds. The Galaxy likely has half of what they need and Cerberus either created some tech using billions of credits or stole it from the Reapers. That type of technology is to expensive to be used by others. Even other governments like the Alliance who kind of did the same thing with the Prime Minister of the Systems Alliance with grey boxes. There are few people to use that tech on and the likely hood of it working is likely not 100%.

Also Yes the Lazarus project is a bit stupid but come on this freaking sci fi I've had to take much worse things from science fiction I know and love if the Lazarus project bothers you that much then you haven't watched much sci fi to be honest.

[1136342t54_]

Siansonea II wrote...

Inorite?

"We found a Reaper artifact."

"What? Those things are dangerous! How are you not indoctrinated?"

"We took precautions."

"Oh, okay. So how do you know Hackett?"

When that same Reaper artifact is the reason why they know the Reapers are coming at a specific time the risks are necessary. Although Shepard could have been a bit more cautious but time was a factor.

[Siansonea]

1136342t54 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Inorite?

"We found a Reaper artifact."

"What? Those things are dangerous! How are you not indoctrinated?"

"We took precautions."

"Oh, okay. So how do you know Hackett?"

When that same Reaper artifact is the reason why they know the Reapers are coming at a specific time the risks are necessary. Although Shepard could have been a bit more cautious but time was a factor.

Well, I as the player knew as soon as she said that she was Indoctrinated. I wanted Shepard to be on his guard, but nope, he fell right into her trap. Just the latest in a long series of Derp Moves by Shepard.

[1136342t54_]

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, I as the player knew as soon as she said that she was Indoctrinated. I wanted Shepard to be on his guard, but nope, he fell right into her trap. Just the latest in a long series of Derp Moves by Shepard.

Shepard being on guard probably wouldn't make much difference. He had two choices. Follow Kinson to the room and fight his way out or pretty much tell Kinson to shove it and kill everything on that station then use the Asteroid. 

Wait I take the second one back tell Kinson they should use the Asteroid first when she tries to stop him and talk about the Reapers then tell Kinson to shove it and slaughter the entire station and use the Asteroid. Either way Shep kills plenty of people and gets the job done.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 16 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[Siansonea]

1136342t54 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, I as the player knew as soon as she said that she was Indoctrinated. I wanted Shepard to be on his guard, but nope, he fell right into her trap. Just the latest in a long series of Derp Moves by Shepard.

Shepard being on guard probably wouldn't make much difference. He had two choices. Follow Kinson to the room and fight his way out or pretty much tell Kinson to shove it and kill everything on that station then use the Asteroid. 

Wait I take the second one back tell Kinson they should use the Asteroid first when she tries to stop him and talk about the Reapers then tell Kinson to shove it and slaughter the entire station and use the Asteroid. Either way Shep kills plenty of people and gets the job done.

If Shepard had been on his guard, he wouldn't have let Kenson get the drop on him. And not only that, but he would have rendezvoused with the Normandy before continuing on to the asteroid base and picked up some reinforcements, and allowed Mordin and Dr. Chakwas to have a look at Kenson and check for signs of Indoctrination. It's stupid that they got on the shuttle and ignored the Normandy. The only reason Shepard "had" to "go in alone" was to rescue Kenson. Once she was aboard the shuttle, Shepard didn't need to go solo anymore—especially knowing that there were a bunch of scientists poking around a Reaper artifact. How many times has Shepard had to clean up after scientists who thought they could handle a Reaper artifact? Dumb dumb dumb.

[1136342t54_]

Siansonea II wrote...
If Shepard had been on his guard, he wouldn't have let Kenson get the drop on him. And not only that, but he would have rendezvoused with the Normandy before continuing on to the asteroid base and picked up some reinforcements, and allowed Mordin and Dr. Chakwas to have a look at Kenson and check for signs of Indoctrination. It's stupid that they got on the shuttle and ignored the Normandy. The only reason Shepard "had" to "go in alone" was to rescue Kenson. Once she was aboard the shuttle, Shepard didn't need to go solo anymore—especially knowing that there were a bunch of scientists poking around a Reaper artifact. How many times has Shepard had to clean up after scientists who thought they could handle a Reaper artifact? Dumb dumb dumb.

You are assuming its perfectly detectable and the time it takes to detect indoctrination is timely. If some one like Kinson (A top alliance operative) is indoctrinated they can hide properly. 

[Iakus]

[quote]elektrego wrote...

This brings me to something, I wanted to add about the writing, but dropped, because I had other  things to do.

I actually like the idea behind Horizon, an emotional confrontation between two former buddies-in-arms, who find themselves working for official enemies. How it was written, especially the dialogue, was bad though and the mood of the scene is much too calm, how casually they come around the corner, only momens after being frozen by the seeker swarms and the colony the wanted to protect mostly abducted,
Personally, I think to expect them (both sides) to argue reasonable right then and there in this situation is a little unrealistic.[/quote]

I also didn't mind the concept behind Horizon.  But the execution was abysmally bad.  Ash going from "You're in the presence of a god" to "You betrayed the Alliance.  Anderson.  You betrayed me!" in less than three minutes was terrible to behold.  And Shepard unable to articulate any form of coherant defense.  And this is why I'm not so concerned about which character has to apologize.  The whole scene is screwed up.  Both for Shepard and the VS.  

[quote]
And I always thought, "there needed to be another scene." Going back to the Citadel to speak with Anderson again after Horizon, the VS being there, giving the report in person. Yeah, Bioware, had a great chance to give us another conversation at this point and despite my having blind faith in them, I hope we get that talk at the beginning of ME3 and considering the dominant opinion about Horizon, I am pretty sure we will get it.[/quote]

I hope so too.  I fear it may not happen though, since it may not be considered "fair" to Liara and the ME2 romances to have more time devoted to the VS.  Even though they're starting with a rift between them.  Liara's LOTSB allowed  Shepard to get back together with Liara.  The ME2 LIs can cuddle all the way through postgame.  
And all Shepards' friends remain friends, the only possible risk being if you screw up/didn't do their loyalty missions.  Which would be a deliberte act on the player's part.
[/quote]

Modifié par iakus, 16 août 2011 - 09:06 .