1476 réponses à ce sujet

[ubermensch007]

You know, I just want to set the record straight to anyone who may believe that the only reason anyone is upset with the Virmire Survivor is b/c of the incident on Horizon... laecraft layed out the charges against the VS and the Alliance HQ best of all -- perhaps:

redbaron76 wrote...

Cereberus is a terrorist organization.

Says who? The Alliance and the Council? They also say that the Reapers are geth. Do you believe everything that the Council says? Or do you simply parrot what you've heard?

redbaron76 wrote...

So when shepard is working for them is an act of Treason since he still is
an active alliance millitary person. So He is a traitor.

Did you play ME1? Shepard ceased to be an Alliance military when he became a Spectre. He no longer has to follow any laws except for the orders of the Council. Remember that moment when an Alliance Rear Admiral demands to examine the Normandy? Well, Shepard doesn't have to let him. He can humor him, if he wishes, because of their common genetic origins - they're both humans.

Death terminates all obligations. Shepard's not even a Spectre anymore. You will notice he has to be re-instated as a Spectre, which means only one thing - he's not one any longer, much less Alliance. So when we speak of formalities, he's not a traitor. And when we speak of the spirit of it...

There's nothing wrong with betraying the traitors of humanity. The Alliance was created to protect
human colonies - all human colonies in space, including those in Terminus Systems. Yet the Alliance turned their back on them. They did nothing while the human colonies were being destroyed. They betrayed the
Earth by leaving its children to be slaughtered by the aliens. There is no an act of a greater treason than that.

Just like the Council, who was supposed to uphold the galactic stability and protect the galaxy, but failed utterly at their task, because they failed to recognize the Reaper threat. They should be court-martial for
incompetence and replaced, but there's no one who would put the Council to trial.

Yet someone has to do what they refused to. You may call those people traitors, because they'd be operating outside of the bounds of law, but there are no laws for the Reaper invasion, because it happens only once per cycle, and after it happens, well, there's no need for the laws anymore. The dead don't need laws and governments.

And VS knew. Knew that the Reapers were real. Knew that the Collectors were real. Knew that Shepard had been dead for two years. VS knew everything that they needed to know to make an informed decision. There was no
hidden or distorted information. There was no miscommunication. The laws have nothing to do with it, because VS broke the laws before, when Shepard stole the Normandy.

VS simply does not trust Shepard, and there is nothing you can do or say when someone just doesn't trust
you. And, possessing the full knowledge of the situation, VS did nothing to fight the Collectors. Worse yet, VS condemned Shepard for doing their job.

That's why I'm convinced that when VS was calling Shepard a traitor who turned his back on everything the Alliance stands for, VS was really speaking to themselves.
VS doesn't need any input from Shepard for their rant. Shepard might as well be a mirror. And VS really hates what they see there.

VS' old hero returns, raising like a ghost from the grave, and he's just the same he's ever been, and
he's fighting the evil as usual, and death itself could not stop him.

Any moment now, he will ask VS what they've been doing to fight the Reapers while he was fighting death.

He's going to ask VS why they've been silent when the Alliance and the Council have been declaring that the Reapers are geth.

He's going to ask why Cerberus were the ones to recover his body, and why the Alliance and VS abandoned him.

He's going to ask why Cerberus are the ones to protect the human colonies, and not the Alliance.

He's going to ask why Cerberus are the ones who believe in Reapers and fight them, and not VS, who's one of the few people in the galaxy who witnessed the whole truth first-hand.

Any moment now, VS will have to tell him that they've been doing nothing about the Reapers, nothing about the human colonies, and they were only chasing Cerberus - which is IMPORTANT, there's nothing more important than that, dammit! They've been doing a very important work for the galaxy!

Do not let him speak. Attack him before he accuses you!

Even homicidal, half-crazed criminals who kill for money are more noble, understanding, and reasonable than VS in ME2. There's no way VS could possibly sink any lower.

Hundreds of thousands of saved humans owe their lives to Shepard the Traitor. Who cares what Shepard is
branded if it brings us victory over the Reapers? Being shunned and sentenced is a small price to pay for that.

But I'm not going to forget those who condemned me and deserted me in my darkest hour. And I
most certainly not letting one of those people to be a member of my crew.

Though, judging by that demo that we saw, it appears we have little choice.

laecraft... Well said

Modifié par ubermensch007, 17 août 2011 - 04:47 .

[stysiaq]

1136342t54 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
If Shepard had been on his guard, he wouldn't have let Kenson get the drop on him. And not only that, but he would have rendezvoused with the Normandy before continuing on to the asteroid base and picked up some reinforcements, and allowed Mordin and Dr. Chakwas to have a look at Kenson and check for signs of Indoctrination. It's stupid that they got on the shuttle and ignored the Normandy. The only reason Shepard "had" to "go in alone" was to rescue Kenson. Once she was aboard the shuttle, Shepard didn't need to go solo anymore—especially knowing that there were a bunch of scientists poking around a Reaper artifact. How many times has Shepard had to clean up after scientists who thought they could handle a Reaper artifact? Dumb dumb dumb.

You are assuming its perfectly detectable and the time it takes to detect indoctrination is timely. If some one like Kinson (A top alliance operative) is indoctrinated they can hide properly. 

1. its freaking Kenson. kEEEEEnson. Gosh. the "i" is not even close to "e" on the keyboard.
2. Arrival is horrible. Each little piece of it. Stop discussing it. Its made of poor writing and greed.

[Siansonea]

1136342t54 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
If Shepard had been on his guard, he wouldn't have let Kenson get the drop on him. And not only that, but he would have rendezvoused with the Normandy before continuing on to the asteroid base and picked up some reinforcements, and allowed Mordin and Dr. Chakwas to have a look at Kenson and check for signs of Indoctrination. It's stupid that they got on the shuttle and ignored the Normandy. The only reason Shepard "had" to "go in alone" was to rescue Kenson. Once she was aboard the shuttle, Shepard didn't need to go solo anymore—especially knowing that there were a bunch of scientists poking around a Reaper artifact. How many times has Shepard had to clean up after scientists who thought they could handle a Reaper artifact? Dumb dumb dumb.

You are assuming its perfectly detectable and the time it takes to detect indoctrination is timely. If some one like Kinson (A top alliance operative) is indoctrinated they can hide properly. 

I think incipient Indoctrination would show up on standard psychological tests, even if it just shows up as symptoms of schizophrenia or something.

[Siansonea]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]elektrego wrote...

This brings me to something, I wanted to add about the writing, but dropped, because I had other  things to do.

I actually like the idea behind Horizon, an emotional confrontation between two former buddies-in-arms, who find themselves working for official enemies. How it was written, especially the dialogue, was bad though and the mood of the scene is much too calm, how casually they come around the corner, only momens after being frozen by the seeker swarms and the colony the wanted to protect mostly abducted,
Personally, I think to expect them (both sides) to argue reasonable right then and there in this situation is a little unrealistic.[/quote]

I also didn't mind the concept behind Horizon.  But the execution was abysmally bad.  Ash going from "You're in the presence of a god" to "You betrayed the Alliance.  Anderson.  You betrayed me!" in less than three minutes was terrible to behold.  And Shepard unable to articulate any form of coherant defense.  And this is why I'm not so concerned about which character has to apologize.  The whole scene is screwed up.  Both for Shepard and the VS.  

[quote]
And I always thought, "there needed to be another scene." Going back to the Citadel to speak with Anderson again after Horizon, the VS being there, giving the report in person. Yeah, Bioware, had a great chance to give us another conversation at this point and despite my having blind faith in them, I hope we get that talk at the beginning of ME3 and considering the dominant opinion about Horizon, I am pretty sure we will get it.[/quote]

I hope so too.  I fear it may not happen though, since it may not be considered "fair" to Liara and the ME2 romances to have more time devoted to the VS.  Even though they're starting with a rift between them.  Liara's LOTSB allowed  Shepard to get back together with Liara.  The ME2 LIs can cuddle all the way through postgame.  
And all Shepards' friends remain friends, the only possible risk being if you screw up/didn't do their loyalty missions.  Which would be a deliberte act on the player's part.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I would also have like a Citadel debrief between Anderson, the VS, and Shepard, where they could hash everything out. The game could still have kept the VS off Shepard's team, by having Anderson refuse the request, but it would have gone a long way toward addressing both my desire to shake Shepard and other peoples' desire to airlock the VS. Anderson could tell the VS why he/she was kept in the dark about Shepard being alive, and about Shepard being with Cerberus, and about Shepard's info from Freedom's Progress, etc. Honestly, the writers did NOT think anything through in ME2, which is why we have so much Story Fail (like the ridonkulous Lazarus Project and the Baby Reaper that subsists on Puree O' Humans). But an argument between Anderson, the VS, Shepard, Udina, and maybe even the Council could have been EPIC. Instead, we got missions where we follow an YMIR mech around and shoot some varren, or blow up YMIR mechs to protect CRATES. 

[Made Nightwing]

[quote]ubermensch007 wrote...

You know, I just want to set the record straight to anyone who may believe that the only reason anyone is upset with the Virmire Survivor is b/c of the incident on Horizon... laecraft layed out the charges against the VS and the Alliance HQ best of all -- perhaps:

[quote]redbaron76 wrote...

Cereberus is a terrorist organization.

[/quote]

Says
who? The Alliance and the Council? They also say that the Reapers are
geth. Do you believe everything that the Council says? Or do you simply
parrot what you've heard?
[quote]

Let's see...they've blown up transports over crowded colonies to produce biotic kids, set up a death camp for those kids, turned colonists into husks, murdered Alliance marines and Alliance Admirals, and pretty much experimented on every race in the galaxy, from asari to rachni.

I'd say that qualifies them as terrorists

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...
I would also have like a Citadel debrief between Anderson, the VS, and Shepard, where they could hash everything out. The game could still have kept the VS off Shepard's team, by having Anderson refuse the request, but it would have gone a long way toward addressing both my desire to shake Shepard and other peoples' desire to airlock the VS. Anderson could tell the VS why he/she was kept in the dark about Shepard being alive, and about Shepard being with Cerberus, and about Shepard's info from Freedom's Progress, etc. Honestly, the writers did NOT think anything through in ME2, which is why we have so much Story Fail (like the ridonkulous Lazarus Project and the Baby Reaper that subsists on Puree O' Humans). But an argument between Anderson, the VS, Shepard, Udina, and maybe even the Council could have been EPIC. Instead, we got missions where we follow an YMIR mech around and shoot some varren, or blow up YMIR mechs to protect CRATES. 

A better, more succinct description of ME2's story fail I have yet to hear 

[1136342t54_]

[quote]iakus wrote...
I hope so too.  I fear it may not happen though, since it may not be considered "fair" to Liara and the ME2 romances to have more time devoted to the VS.  Even though they're starting with a rift between them.  Liara's LOTSB allowed  Shepard to get back together with Liara.  The ME2 LIs can cuddle all the way through postgame.  
And all Shepards' friends remain friends, the only possible risk being if you screw up/didn't do their loyalty missions.  Which would be a deliberte act on the player's part.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Earlier in this thread there was a Hale tweet discussing how she was doing the voice for shep during a part in ME3 where they talk about Horizon.

[1136342t54_]

Siansonea II wrote...
I think incipient Indoctrination would show up on standard psychological tests, even if it just shows up as symptoms of schizophrenia or something.

Not necessarily indoctrination on low enough levels can easily be hidden which makes it easy for Reapers to fool many safety precautions and have the perfect infiltrators. Its possibly able to be tested but I doubt its very quick like a scan. It may take a few days or perhaps a week.

[MegaBadExample]

Tbh this **** should have been sorted out in ME2. And I'm pretty pissed at BioWare for the way they left it. I mean if you romanced the VS and stayed faithful, (Like me.) you should have got more than what we recieved. Every other romance gets 'cuddle time' after ME2 and well Liara romancers get a damn DLC. And even in that DLC every other romance gets mentioned except for Ashley and Kaidan. They should have at least gave the faithful a little scene on the Citadel or something where you could fix the relationship before starting the SM, instead we got nothing but an email, which was shady as hell.

They've got a lot to make up for in ME3 and they better freakin do it.

[AVPen]

1136342t54 wrote...

Earlier in this thread there was a Hale tweet discussing how she was doing the voice for shep during a part in ME3 where they talk about Horizon.

Rapscallioness brought up that post a few pages ago (here's a copy of it):

rapscallioness wrote...

@iakus: your post reminded me of this bit I read on the Kaidan fan thread. Courtesy of Caseshep, it's a write up in the New Yorker w/ Jennifer Hale coming out 8/15/2011. It's has some small, but interesting foreshadowing:

"Toward the end of her day at the studio, Hale came to a scene with a character referred to as A/K. It was the most emotional scene of the day, and also one of the most technically tricky, because of the ways that players' choices in Mass Effect 1 and 2 carry over into the new sequel.

blah blah blah, story of Virmire...

...and, in Mass Effect 2, whichever of the two was saved reappears to remonstrate with him or her. The result of that conversation which can play out in various ways, determines how the character of A/K wll interact with Shepard in Mass Effect 3.The new scene involved a tense exchange between Shepard and A/K. The first line of the scene was simple enough. "Let her/him go." but Hale had to say it multiple times, with different emphases, in order to communicate every possible state of alarm with which Shepard would react to A/K.
...
Two were growly, hateful takes, and two were hard, urgent takes.
...
She was then told that her lines had to be recorded as though she were running. "I have a question," Hale said. "It's pretty emotional for Shepard here. How big do you want it?" Walters explained that he wanted Shepard to seem like more of a "real character" in this game, a character who showed "his frailty."
...
"I want Shepard's vulnerability to come out, even though not every player will choose to experience it."
...
Hale's next line was "No!" Livingstone turned to Walters and asked, "Is this a panicked 'No' or an angry 'No'?"
"It's a" -Walters hesitated- "futile 'No.'"
Hale nodded, "No!", she said, stirringly, a moment later.
"More compassion," Livingstone said. "Less heightened."
Hales tried again, and her "No!" seemed to emerge from some alarmed, half-strangled place in her throat."

[MegaBadExample]

^Can't wait to see that scene in-game. There's gonna be drama if something bad happens to the VS.......again. Seriously BioWare why is the VS your punching-bag? Can we get a happily ever after over here please?

[HogarthHughes 3]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Let's see...they've blown up transports over crowded colonies to produce biotic kids, set up a death camp for those kids, turned colonists into husks, murdered Alliance marines and Alliance Admirals, and pretty much experimented on every race in the galaxy, from asari to rachni.

I'd say that qualifies them as terrorists

First of all, the Pragia Cell (which had gone beyond their mission parameters mind you) was not a death camp.  Death camps exist for the purpose of killing people, any knowledge gained from experimentation on said people is merely a by-product and not the overall intent of the camp.  The Teltin facility staff intended to create a powerful biotic (and likely a way to reproduce the effect in others), not to simply murder biotic children (though they did so as a result of their experiments).  I'm not trying to justify what was done, but going along with Vasir and calling it a "Death Camp" is incorrect.

Second, experiments on aliens (or humans) for the purposes of enhancing strength, discovering weaknesses, the creation of shock troops, etc. isn't terrorism either.  Cerberus didn't blow up transports for some kind of political gain, they did so to create human biotics.  The Alliance soldiers killed by thresher maws were lured there as part of an experiment (the tests done on survivor(s) supports this).  Not to mention terrorism specifically targets noncombatants.  Admiral Kahoku was simply an enemy who was dangerous enough to be assassinated (not a political enemy as much as an enemy military commander).

Now, assassinating political figureheads so they can be replaced with someone more easily manipulated (or at least more in line with their goals)?  That can be called terrorism.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 17 août 2011 - 03:12 .

[Made Nightwing]

Rightio, let's just call it, "A camp which inflicted painful and lethal experiments on helpless kids for the greater good of humanity."

[HogarthHughes 3]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Rightio, let's just call it, "A camp which inflicted painful and lethal experiments on helpless kids for the greater good of humanity."

I suppose Death Camp just rolls off the tongue better?

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 17 août 2011 - 02:59 .

[Made Nightwing]

It kinda does.

[Siansonea]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Rightio, let's just call it, "A camp which inflicted painful and lethal experiments on helpless kids for the greater good of humanity."

I suppose Death Camp just rolls off the tongue better?

"Did I say Death Camps? I meant Happy Camps!"

[Siansonea]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Let's see...they've blown up transports over crowded colonies to produce biotic kids, set up a death camp for those kids, turned colonists into husks, murdered Alliance marines and Alliance Admirals, and pretty much experimented on every race in the galaxy, from asari to rachni.

I'd say that qualifies them as terrorists

First of all, the Pragia Cell (which had gone beyond their mission parameters mind you) was not a death camp.  Death camps exist for the purpose of killing people, any knowledge gained from experimentation on said people is merely a by-product and not the overall intent of the camp.  The Teltin facility staff intended to create a powerful biotic (and likely a way to reproduce the effect in others), not to simply murder biotic children (though they did so as a result of their experiments).  I'm not trying to justify what was done, but going along with Vasir and calling it a "Death Camp" is incorrect.

Second, experiments on aliens (or humans) for the purposes of enhancing strength, discovering weaknesses, the creation of shock troops, etc. isn't terrorism either.  Cerberus didn't blow up transports for some kind of political gain, they did so to create human biotics.  The Alliance soldiers killed by thresher maws were lured there as part of an experiment (the tests done on survivor(s) supports this).  Not to mention terrorism specifically targets noncombatants.  Admiral Kahoku was simply an enemy who was dangerous enough to be assassinated (not a political enemy as much as an enemy military commander).

Now, assassinating political figureheads so they can be replaced with someone more easily manipulated (or at least more in line with their goals)?  That can be called terrorism.

Well, all of this can be called atrocities. War crimes. Crimes against humanity. You're not going to make any of these actions more palatable by trying to lawyer away the "terrorism" label. Call it what you want, but it's all DESPICABLE. And so is anyone who thinks this sort of thing is okay.

[MisterJB]

Made Nightwing wrote...
 turned colonists into husks,

Assuming you are talking about Chasca, there's actually no proof of that. All that we know is that the colony there sold samples to Cerberus.
What would Cerberus gain by turning a productive human colony into Husks and then just leave them there along with info that could be traced back to them?

[Seboist]

Cerberus saved humanity from the Collectors and provided aid to the survivors of Horizon and the Hugo Gernsback. They're good people.

Modifié par Seboist, 17 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Davie McG]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus saved humanity from the Collectors and provided aid to the survivors of Horizon and the Hugo Gernsback. They're good people.

They're quite unethical. And pro reaper in ME3. Considering we fought cerberus quite a bit in the first one it's hardly surprising she disapproved on Horizon. I think Shepards actions will redeem him though.

[Siansonea]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus saved humanity from the Collectors and provided aid to the survivors of Horizon and the Hugo Gernsback. They're good people.

Whatever. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Cerberus appears to have done one good deed, or at least signed the checks, and suddenly all their past and current atrocities don't matter?



NO.

But I think you just like taking the Renegade/Badassssss stance in any discussion. It's like you go out of your way to find opportunities to show how ruthless you are. Have fun with that.

[Seboist]

Siansonea II wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus saved humanity from the Collectors and provided aid to the survivors of Horizon and the Hugo Gernsback. They're good people.

Whatever. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Cerberus appears to have done one good deed, or at least signed the checks, and suddenly all their past and current atrocities don't matter?



NO.

But I think you just like taking the Renegade/Badassssss stance in any discussion. It's like you go out of your way to find opportunities to show how ruthless you are. Have fun with that.

When it comes getting allies against machines that have been exterminating people for at least 37 million years, yeah past atrocities don't matter.

My Colonist/Ruthless Shepard would ally with Batarian slavers against them without second thought.

[Zjarcal]

Siansonea II wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus saved humanity from the Collectors and provided aid to the survivors of Horizon and the Hugo Gernsback. They're good people.

Whatever. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. 

Snip the "they're good people" part of that post and it's hardly a dumb post at all.

[Siansonea]

Seboist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus saved humanity from the Collectors and provided aid to the survivors of Horizon and the Hugo Gernsback. They're good people.

Whatever. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Cerberus appears to have done one good deed, or at least signed the checks, and suddenly all their past and current atrocities don't matter?



NO.

But I think you just like taking the Renegade/Badassssss stance in any discussion. It's like you go out of your way to find opportunities to show how ruthless you are. Have fun with that.

When it comes getting allies against machines that have been exterminating people for at least 37 million years, yeah past atrocities don't matter.

My Colonist/Ruthless Shepard would ally with Batarian slavers against them without second thought.

Yeah yeah yeah, it would probably be his FIRST thought. He could have a phalanx of Alliance Marines at his beck and call, but he'd rather hire scum and villainy. Really, this whole bad boy mystique is a mystery to me. It just smacks of douchebaggery to me.