1476 réponses à ce sujet

[ChaplainTappman]

Siansonea II wrote...

@ Seboist: I'm just going to assume that you're being a provocateur at this point. You can't be serious. If on the off chance you ARE serious—seek help. You've got some seriously skewed ideas about what constitutes a great man. That is, unless you're just goofing on everyone for laughs, as I suspect.

Not that I disagree with you re: TIM, I'd point out that your avatar thinks he's a great man.

But you're right, he's not a great man, not by any means. He is a remarkable man, in the same way Hitler and Stalin and bin Laden were remarkable men. He, and they, possessed qualities that would be admirable, were they dedicated to goals and philosophies that weren't repugnant and far afield from basic human decency. His determination, drive, charisma, and clarity of vision are all extraordinary. It is a shame his vision of the future is so trogladytic. He'd be a powerful ally for Shepard, were he not hellbent on driving the galaxy to war.

As for Cerberus itself, it certainly is a terrorist group, or at least part of it is. The generally accepted definition of "terrorism" is the use of violence or the threat of violence by a nonstate entity to acheive one's goals. That certainly describes many of the actions taken by Cerberus, or at least the core of Cerberus. It looks much like, say, Hamas or Hezbollah in the Middle East, or the now defunct Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. It has a very small core of hardened militants (the textbook "terrorists"), as well as a number of ancillary and associated groups working in different fields to further some aspect of the group's goals. Think of it as concentric circles; the further away from the center you are, the less militant you're likely to be, the less fervent you're likely to be. You're likely not a fighter; you might even be engaged in works that are not only lawful, but benevolent. People associated with these groups often provide education, humanitarian aid, even legitimate governance in some cases. Those furthest from the center may not identify with the core group, or even be aware they're working with a militant organization.

Is everyone in or associated with these groups a "terrorist?" Well, that depends on you personal opinion. I'm not the moral absolutist you seem to be, Sian, so I'm inclined to give those further out from TIM a break. In particular, I hold the Lazarus Cell distinct from Cerberus proper, excepting Miranda, Jacob, and possibly Kelly Chambers. Conversations, both those between Shepard and various crewmembers and those overheard by Shepard, make it clear that most if not all of the Normandy's crew were recruited specifically to serve Shepard, rather than being pulled from the ranks of Cerberus. Most don't seem aware of Cerberus' ideology, which would make sense. It appears to promoting itself as a paramilitary militia seeking to protect colonists in the Terminus Systems. They joined a group in order to fight a grave threat to human colonies, not to dominate or exterminate all nonhumans. To me, they aren't terrorists.

But the Illusive Man himself? His inner circle, people like Kai Leng? Absolutely terrorists. And absolutely deserving of a terrorist's fate.

[Siansonea]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

@ Seboist: I'm just going to assume that you're being a provocateur at this point. You can't be serious. If on the off chance you ARE serious—seek help. You've got some seriously skewed ideas about what constitutes a great man. That is, unless you're just goofing on everyone for laughs, as I suspect.

Not that I disagree with you re: TIM, I'd point out that your avatar thinks he's a great man.

Yeah, because choosing an avatar means you agree with everything that character stands for. WEAK.

But you're right, he's not a great man, not by any means. He is a remarkable man, in the same way Hitler and Stalin and bin Laden were remarkable men. He, and they, possessed qualities that would be admirable, were they dedicated to goals and philosophies that weren't repugnant and far afield from basic human decency. His determination, drive, charisma, and clarity of vision are all extraordinary. It is a shame his vision of the future is so trogladytic. He'd be a powerful ally for Shepard, were he not hellbent on driving the galaxy to war.

As for Cerberus itself, it certainly is a terrorist group, or at least part of it is. The generally accepted definition of "terrorism" is the use of violence or the threat of violence by a nonstate entity to acheive one's goals. That certainly describes many of the actions taken by Cerberus, or at least the core of Cerberus. It looks much like, say, Hamas or Hezbollah in the Middle East, or the now defunct Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. It has a very small core of hardened militants (the textbook "terrorists"), as well as a number of ancillary and associated groups working in different fields to further some aspect of the group's goals. Think of it as concentric circles; the further away from the center you are, the less militant you're likely to be, the less fervent you're likely to be. You're likely not a fighter; you might even be engaged in works that are not only lawful, but benevolent. People associated with these groups often provide education, humanitarian aid, even legitimate governance in some cases. Those furthest from the center may not identify with the core group, or even be aware they're working with a militant organization.

Is everyone in or associated with these groups a "terrorist?" Well, that depends on you personal opinion. I'm not the moral absolutist you seem to be, Sian, so I'm inclined to give those further out from TIM a break. In particular, I hold the Lazarus Cell distinct from Cerberus proper, excepting Miranda, Jacob, and possibly Kelly Chambers. Conversations, both those between Shepard and various crewmembers and those overheard by Shepard, make it clear that most if not all of the Normandy's crew were recruited specifically to serve Shepard, rather than being pulled from the ranks of Cerberus. Most don't seem aware of Cerberus' ideology, which would make sense. It appears to promoting itself as a paramilitary militia seeking to protect colonists in the Terminus Systems. They joined a group in order to fight a grave threat to human colonies, not to dominate or exterminate all nonhumans. To me, they aren't terrorists.

But the Illusive Man himself? His inner circle, people like Kai Leng? Absolutely terrorists. And absolutely deserving of a terrorist's fate.

I'm not as absolutist as it might appear on the surface, I find myself in the position of the "Angel's Advocate" in this thread due to all the Evil Groupies around here. Truth be told I agree with your assessment of the "concentric circles" and I also recognize the necessity for working with Cerberus—eventually. A Paragon isn't blind and stupid, she just tries all the aboveboard methods to achieving her goals FIRST, and only as a last resort, and under extreme circumstances, does she get down and dirty with people like Cerberus.

[Seboist]

Siansonea II wrote...

@ Seboist: I'm just going to assume that you're being a provocateur at this point. You can't be serious. If on the off chance you ARE serious—seek help. You've got some seriously skewed ideas about what constitutes a great man. That is, unless you're just goofing on everyone for laughs, as I suspect.

TIM was proven to be a selfless man in the Retribution novel when during an attack by Turian maggots he decided to chase after Reaper avatar Grayson instead of going to an escape pod his own life and Cerberus be damned. He then proceeded to scold Kai Leng for saving him instead going after the avatar further proving his selflessness.

He's earned the right of being my Shepard's future husband and the father of her children.

[DarkDragon777]

TIM isn't selfless or necessarily greedy in a sense (perhaps in some ways, but not all). He's just sensible.

[Siansonea]

Seboist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

@ Seboist: I'm just going to assume that you're being a provocateur at this point. You can't be serious. If on the off chance you ARE serious—seek help. You've got some seriously skewed ideas about what constitutes a great man. That is, unless you're just goofing on everyone for laughs, as I suspect.

TIM was proven to be a selfless man in the Retribution novel when during an attack by Turian maggots he decided to chase after Reaper avatar Grayson instead of going to an escape pod his own life and Cerberus be damned. He then proceeded to scold Kai Leng for saving him instead going after the avatar further proving his selflessness.

He's earned the right of being my Shepard's future husband and the father of her children.

Obvious trollpost is obvious.

Also, "selfless" ≠ altruistic. That's like saying the 9/11 hijackers were "selfless" because they gave their lives in the attacks.

[Siansonea]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

TIM isn't selfless or necessarily greedy in a sense (perhaps in some ways, but not all). He's just sensible.

I hope someday you find yourself on the receiving end of this brand of "sensible". Nothing like the shoe being on the other foot to learn something the hard way.

[DarkDragon777]

I have the advantage of not being there. That's why I use the time I have to understand a broader, more logical point of view.

Had TIM not done what he had, Shepard wouldn't even be alive, and all of the people that crossed him, and innocents, would most likely end up being killed and added as a part to a Reaper to aid in the next cycle. Would the people who died really want that?

Modifié par DarkDragon777, 18 août 2011 - 12:31 .

[ChaplainTappman]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, because choosing an avatar means you agree with everything that character stands for. WEAK.

Oh, I'd never suggest that. I was merely pointing out the incongruity, because I'm a sucker for non sequitors. Although, because I'm a habitually curious man, why did you choose Miranda as your avatar?

I'm not as absolutist as it might appear on the surface, I find myself in the position of the "Angel's Advocate" in this thread due to all the Evil Groupies around here. Truth be told I agree with your assessment of the "concentric circles" and I also recognize the necessity for working with Cerberus—eventually. A Paragon isn't blind and stupid, she just tries all the aboveboard methods to achieving her goals FIRST, and only as a last resort, and under extreme circumstances, does she get down and dirty with people like Cerberus.

Ah, I see. An understandable position, though I think you were quick to take "Shepard is right to be uspet with the VS" to mean "Shepard's right, the VS is wrong, and Cerberus is awesome." Though, clearly, the latter notion is alive and well, bizarrely.

[Siansonea]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

I have the advantage of not being there. That's why I use the time I have to understand a broader, more logical point of view.

Had TIM not done what he had, Shepard wouldn't even be alive, and all of the people that crossed him, and innocents, would most likely end up being killed and added as a part to a Reaper to aid in the next cycle. Would the people who died really want that?

There's a name for this type of "logic". It's called antisocial personality disorder. Obviously for more prevalent than I ever imagined possible.

And what a false conundrum. If Shepard hadn't stepped up, more than likely somebody else would have. Or something else would have happened. But it's not a foregone conclusion that the only person that could stop the Reapers is Shepard.

[Made Nightwing]

@DarkDragon777.

I have only one thing left to say. He who would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither. Contrary to popular belief, the needs of the many do not outweigh the needs of the few. Where do we draw the line between many and few? How many thousand 'insignificant people' need to be sacrificed?

What if the only way to win would be for TIM to exterminate the entire salarian race? What if throwing millions of troops in front of the Reapers will slow them down enough to develop a weapon to win the war?

I say that the way to beat the Reapers lies in co-ordinated military strategy, organic ingenuity and courage. The galaxy doesn't need TIM's (pretty much useless) experiments.

After all, what have they produced? Do we have thresher maw venom guns? Nope. Armour that stops thresher maw venom? Nope. Do we have hoards of biotic soldiers as strong as Jack? Nope, but we've lost a few hundred because TIM authorised experiments on children.

All Cerberus has ever done is bring pain and ruin. Sure, they resurrected Shepard. One good act does not atone for dozens of evil ones. For me, Cerberus was always a grey entity. They became completely black to me once I discovered they were experimenting on kids. A child's life is sacrosanct, Cerberus crossed the ****ing Rubicon with that one.

[Iakus]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Oh dear lord.

The VS was right to be mad at Shepard

Shepard was right to feel hurt because theyw ere doing the right thing.

Both are right so no need to be mad, just kiss and make up.

That is far too reasonable a stance to take 

[DarkDragon777]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@DarkDragon777.

I have only one thing left to say. He who would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither. Contrary to popular belief, the needs of the many do not outweigh the needs of the few. Where do we draw the line between many and few? How many thousand 'insignificant people' need to be sacrificed?

What if the only way to win would be for TIM to exterminate the entire salarian race? What if throwing millions of troops in front of the Reapers will slow them down enough to develop a weapon to win the war?

I say that the way to beat the Reapers lies in co-ordinated military strategy, organic ingenuity and courage. The galaxy doesn't need TIM's (pretty much useless) experiments.

After all, what have they produced? Do we have thresher maw venom guns? Nope. Armour that stops thresher maw venom? Nope. Do we have hoards of biotic soldiers as strong as Jack? Nope, but we've lost a few hundred because TIM authorised experiments on children.

All Cerberus has ever done is bring pain and ruin. Sure, they resurrected Shepard. One good act does not atone for dozens of evil ones. For me, Cerberus was always a grey entity. They became completely black to me once I discovered they were experimenting on kids. A child's life is sacrosanct, Cerberus crossed the ****ing Rubicon with that one.

We have yet to see the true impact of TIM's machinations.


Okay, would you rather throw a million people away or throw away a trillion? If you throw a coordinated attack, a lot more people will probably die anyway. That's highly illogical if there's a more efficient solution.


And I didn't say the needs of many outweigh the needs of few.. It depends on the situation.

[1136342t54_]

Siansonea II wrote...
I hope someday you find yourself on the receiving end of this brand of "sensible". Nothing like the shoe being on the other foot to learn something the hard way.

TIM never was entirely selfish. He thinks that Cerberus is the best way humanity can basically become top dog and will do anything to achieve that goal. TIM isn't necessarily selfish but more or less wrong in his ideals. Hell his whole goal is selfless but the way he goes about that goal is immoral on many ways and he should be killed. Now Cerberus as a whole I wouldn't get rid of the organization. To be honest I like Miranda's look at the group. When she said "The salarians have the STG and the Asari have their legendary commandos. Cerberus is just humanity's counter to those organizations."

While that isn't entirely accurate Cerberus with the right leadership could do a lot of good.

[ChaplainTappman]

1136342t54 wrote...

TIM never was entirely selfish. He thinks that Cerberus is the best way humanity can basically become top dog and will do anything to achieve that goal. TIM isn't necessarily selfish but more or less wrong in his ideals. Hell his whole goal is selfless but the way he goes about that goal is immoral on many ways and he should be killed. Now Cerberus as a whole I wouldn't get rid of the organization. To be honest I like Miranda's look at the group. When she said "The salarians have the STG and the Asari have their legendary commandos. Cerberus is just humanity's counter to those organizations."

While that isn't entirely accurate Cerberus with the right leadership could do a lot of good.

The problem with that is that, without TIM, there is no Cerberus. And I'll have to disagree with you saying that they could do a lot of good. The core of that group, TIM and his inner circle, have only one goal: the extermination or enslavement of all nonhumans. No matter who's in charge, no matter how benign their methods, their desired end state is repugnant. David Duke, no matter how kind, normal-seeming, well spoken he is, he's still a neo-****. He still wants a world that is incompatible with basic human decency.

[Made Nightwing]

@Dark Dragon, hell of a thing to say...if you're not one of the guys on the receiving end of the experiments. Better to die fighting the Reapers than lose your dignity and humanity at the hands of TIM.

[1136342t54_]

ChaplainTappman wrote...
The problem with that is that, without TIM, there is no Cerberus. And I'll have to disagree with you saying that they could do a lot of good. The core of that group, TIM and his inner circle, have only one goal: the extermination or enslavement of all nonhumans. No matter who's in charge, no matter how benign their methods, their desired end state is repugnant. David Duke, no matter how kind, normal-seeming, well spoken he is, he's still a neo-****. He still wants a world that is incompatible with basic human decency.

Where have you heard that? I have never heard of anything about TIM's motives is the extermination of all non humans. Cerberus is about human dominance period not about extermination and isn't that what many in the Alliance would want anyway? Also it seems that some of Cerberus top operatives and members and Miranda and Jacob. Shadow Broker made a comment about their lose being able to screw up Cerberus operations and they are definitely not bent on extermination of all non humans. Even Miranda says that Cerberus doesn't need pure xenophobia in its members.

Cerberus is mostly funded by private backers. The Alliance can just come make Cerberus a black ops organization (Just like it originally was) and put a leader in charge of the group as a whole while keeping tabs on there activiites like they do other organizations.

[DarkDragon777]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Dark Dragon, hell of a thing to say...if you're not one of the guys on the receiving end of the experiments. Better to die fighting the Reapers than lose your dignity and humanity at the hands of TIM.

That's why you have to fight to get to the top, but things have to be done.

[Made Nightwing]

@DarkDragon777, if guys like you were running things, not only would withdraw my application for Army Reserve, but I would move to the country, dig myself a bunker and isolate myself from society for the rest of my life.

If soldiers and civillians think they are just going to be used as test subjects to produce better weapons and technology, then they have absolutely no incentive to keep going. Would you join a military organization where you were quite likely to meet an unpleasant, and dehumanizing death at the hands of your fellow humans for a 'noble cause'?

[ChaplainTappman]

1136342t54 wrote...

Where have you heard that? I have never heard of anything about TIM's motives is the extermination of all non humans. Cerberus is about human dominance period not about extermination and isn't that what many in the Alliance would want anyway? Also it seems that some of Cerberus top operatives and members and Miranda and Jacob. Shadow Broker made a comment about their lose being able to screw up Cerberus operations and they are definitely not bent on extermination of all non humans. Even Miranda says that Cerberus doesn't need pure xenophobia in its members.

Cerberus is mostly funded by private backers. The Alliance can just come make Cerberus a black ops organization (Just like it originally was) and put a leader in charge of the group as a whole while keeping tabs on there activiites like they do other organizations.

The books make it clear (at least to me) that TIM aims for, as I said, enslavement or extermination. Which follows logically from what you yourself said. If Cerberus' goal is human dominance throughout the galaxy, how do you expect them to handle those who refuse submission to humanity, especially when you consider Cerberus' callous and brutal amorality?

You're right that xenophobia isn't a prerequisite for Cerberus membership. However, most of TIM's top agents are vehemently xenophobic; look at Kai Leng or Paul Grayson. And to a large degree it's a matter of semantics: "we're not anti-alien, we're pro-human." To reuse an example, David Duke has made similar statements, to the effect of "we don't hate black people, we just think white people are superior." Frankly, I think Miranda is deluding herself into believing Cerberus and TIM aren't that bad. And Jacob (it seems like) has always been held at arm's length by TIM, due to Jacob's distrust of TIM and Cerberus. I suspect the Shadow Broker is referring to the objective damage the loss of Jacob would do to Cerberus (namely Shepard's mission), rather than TIM's subjective feelings about Jacob's death.

And I'm pretty sure Cerberus was never an Alliance black ops group. I know Admiral Kahoku says that in ME1, but Cerberus' history as explained though the books and comics makes it pretty clear that Cerberus has always been an independent group that holds the Alliance in disdain. TIM was a mercenary working covertly for General Williams on Shanxi, but that was before Cerberus had been founded, and before Jack Harper had taken on the mantle of the Illusive Man.

[1136342t54_]

ChaplainTappman wrote...
The books make it clear (at least to me) that TIM aims for, as I said, enslavement or extermination. Which follows logically from what you yourself said. If Cerberus' goal is human dominance throughout the galaxy, how do you expect them to handle those who refuse submission to humanity, especially when you consider Cerberus' callous and brutal amorality?

I've read all the books. Kai Leng is blatantly xenophobic Paul Grayson is pro human but doesn't hate aliens at all not really thinks that humans is better than them. Pro human is different than xenophobia. It means that you think your species should thrive to be better than the others which isn't a bad thing.

You're right that xenophobia isn't a prerequisite for Cerberus membership. However, most of TIM's top agents are vehemently xenophobic; look at Kai Leng or Paul Grayson. And to a large degree it's a matter of semantics: "we're not anti-alien, we're pro-human." To reuse an example, David Duke has made similar statements, to the effect of "we don't hate black people, we just think white people are superior." Frankly, I think Miranda is deluding herself into believing Cerberus and TIM aren't that bad. And Jacob (it seems like) has always been held at arm's length by TIM, due to Jacob's distrust of TIM and Cerberus. I suspect the Shadow Broker is referring to the objective damage the loss of Jacob would do to Cerberus (namely Shepard's mission), rather than TIM's subjective feelings about Jacob's death.

Its not the same at all. Don't compare out interspecies race relations to an intergalactic community. Different races among species doesn't technically exist. With humans its basicallly a man made problem even though we are all human and there is not specific differences at all. With different species its not wrong to want humanity to be top dog. Hell you don't have to say you are necessarily pro human since every human should be. 

While Kelly is naive her pet store analogy is kind of good in this situation. I like Asari, Turians, Hanar, Salarians etc. but I work for the Systems Alliance and fight for human interests.

Miranda knows about most Cerberus experiments and is one of the few people who actually have met him. Even Jacob has to. It would seem that those people are usually atleast somewhat part of the inner circle. Miranda believes that Cerberus's objective isn't bad. TIM is a whole nother story. Jacob knows about Cerberus experiments to but joins them because they get the job done half the time.

And I'm pretty sure Cerberus was never an Alliance black ops group. I know Admiral Kahoku says that in ME1, but Cerberus' history as explained though the books and comics makes it pretty clear that Cerberus has always been an independent group that holds the Alliance in disdain. TIM was a mercenary working covertly for General Williams on Shanxi, but that was before Cerberus had been founded, and before Jack Harper had taken on the mantle of the Illusive Man.

Part of Cerberus seems to have been former Blackops. Think about it how the hell did they suddenly get dozens or hundreds of well trained commandos? Its the most reasonable way to get started more easily.

[ChaplainTappman]

1136342t54 wrote...

I've read all the books. Kai Leng is blatantly xenophobic Paul Grayson is pro human but doesn't hate aliens at all not really thinks that humans is better than them. Pro human is different than xenophobia. It means that you think your species should thrive to be better than the others which isn't a bad thing.

There's nothing wrong with promoting humanity's interests per se, but that's not the same thing as seeking human dominance, which by your own admission is Cerberus' goal. And you never addressed my question. How do you see a group like Cerberus dealing with the nonhumans who refuse to submit to human dominance, if not by exterminating them?

Its not the same at all. Don't compare out interspecies race relations to an intergalactic community. Different races among species doesn't technically exist. With humans its basicallly a man made problem even though we are all human and there is not specific differences at all. With different species its not wrong to want humanity to be top dog. Hell you don't have to say you are necessarily pro human since every human should be.

I see nothing wrong with advancing human interests, to want humanity to have a strong voice in galactic affairs. But I think it is wrong to want humanity to be dominant over every other species. An example: I'm an American. I believe America should be a powerful voice in the international community. But that doesn't mean I believe the US should rule the world. I believe in cooperative coexistence.

Part of Cerberus seems to have been former Blackops. Think about it how the hell did they suddenly get dozens or hundreds of well trained commandos? Its the most reasonable way to get started more easily.

Okay, that's a reasonable assumption. But that doesn't mean the Cerberus was itself an Alliance group. It means that x number of Alliance soldiers defected or otherwise left the Alliance military to join Cerberus.

[1136342t54_]

[quote]ChaplainTappman wrote...
I see nothing wrong with advancing human interests, to want humanity to have a strong voice in galactic affairs. But I think it is wrong to want humanity to be dominant over every other species. An example: I'm an American. I believe America should be a powerful voice in the international community. But that doesn't mean I believe the US should rule the world. I believe in cooperative coexistence.
[/quote]
The same way every nation has done to any other group. Either go the brute force route by destroying military and infastructure to the point where they aren't a threat and allow them into your polity with specific rules. While its not as simple as I said it but many nations have done this. Hell the Turians MO is doing  that. You don't have to exterminate a group of people to conquer them.

[qutoe]
Okay, that's a reasonable assumption. But that doesn't mean the Cerberus was itself an Alliance group. It means that x number of Alliance soldiers defected or otherwise left the Alliance military to join Cerberus.
[/quote]
Not just military. Its likely some Alliance scientists or freelancers are Cerberus. It would make it easier for the Alliance to take it over. If TIM and Cerberus cells everywhere are discovered by the Alliance they could either eradicate them all or at least most of them to make them less of a threat they was before and force them into a deal. Of course TIM would have to be killed.

[ChaplainTappman]

1136342t54 wrote...

The same way every nation has done to any other group. Either go the brute force route by destroying military and infastructure to the point where they aren't a threat and allow them into your polity with specific rules. While its not as simple as I said it but many nations have done this. Hell the Turians MO is doing  that. You don't have to exterminate a group of people to conquer them.

You're proving my point. The Cerberus philosophy forces a binary choice on nonhumans: submit and accept second-class citizen status, or die. TIM may see their submission as the preferable route, but that just makes him a practical racist.

Not just military. Its likely some Alliance scientists or freelancers are Cerberus. It would make it easier for the Alliance to take it over. If TIM and Cerberus cells everywhere are discovered by the Alliance they could either eradicate them all or at least most of them to make them less of a threat they was before and force them into a deal. Of course TIM would have to be killed.

The core of Cerberus, the inner circle, the people TIM likely views as Cerberus proper, have an ideology that is incompatible with galactic stability, with the precepts of Citadel civilization. Those approximately 150 people have no place in society. People further out (see my "concentric circles" analogy), people like the Normandy SR2 crew, on the other hand, would certainly be welcome back into the fold, should they so desire.

[Dariustwinblade]

I wonder ppl who are screaming killing Kohoku was wrong.

Do you ppl realise KOHOKU WAS A TRAITOR HIMSELF.

He made a deal with another terrorist organisation/slave trafficer etc(The Shadow Broker)

He made a deal and was going to give away top secret Alliance Intel to another terrorist to fight Cerberus as (Alliance intel is beyond sh¡t.)

Paragon Shepard can address that doing so Kohoku was a traitor
"but thats treason"

So yeah Kohoku wasn't a pure white palidin.

He made a deal with Set *Egyptian god of darkness,evil and shadow*(Shadow Broker) to defeat Hade's Cerburus.

He knew what he was getting into when he made a deal with the most dangerous and powerful broker in the galaxy.

Cerberus just 1upped him. He deserved a traitors punishment.


Surprised no one has thought about this.