1476 réponses à ce sujet

[Blarty]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

TIM isn't selfless or necessarily greedy in a sense (perhaps in some ways, but not all). He's just sensible.

Agreed, but TIM always has an angle and another hand to play. In many ways, Cerberus and all of it's operatives,and Shepard are a means to an end for TIM, if anything TIM is detached, I don't believe that TIM would care about the death of an operative if the death yielded nothing valuable. In ME2, TIM mentions about possibly putting down Grunt but keeping his body, as the data may be valuable.

[Siansonea]

Dariustwinblade wrote...

I wonder ppl who are screaming killing Kohoku was wrong.

Do you ppl realise KOHOKU WAS A TRAITOR HIMSELF.

He made a deal with another terrorist organisation/slave trafficer etc(The Shadow Broker)

He made a deal and was going to give away top secret Alliance Intel to another terrorist to fight Cerberus as (Alliance intel is beyond sh¡t.)

Paragon Shepard can address that doing so Kohoku was a traitor
"but thats treason"

So yeah Kohoku wasn't a pure white palidin.

He made a deal with Set *Egyptian god of darkness,evil and shadow*(Shadow Broker) to defeat Hade's Cerburus.

He knew what he was getting into when he made a deal with the most dangerous and powerful broker in the galaxy.

Cerberus just 1upped him. He deserved a traitors punishment.


Surprised no one has thought about this.

And how do we know the Shadow Broker's agent was telling the truth about Kahoku's willingness to give the Shadow Broker intel about Cerberus? 

[Siansonea]

And the more I see posts like "TIM is sensible" and other atrocity-supporting viewpoints, the more I hope the Reapers win. If THIS is what we humans do with our sapience, then I totally get why the Reapers think we're vermin to be exterminated. Because if all we aspire to as a species is petty dominance and oppression of others, as we have for millennia of our history, we don't deserve to inherit the galaxy. Maybe the next crop of sapient species won't be quite so narcissistic.

[DoubleOhSolo]

Siansonea II wrote...

And the more I see posts like "TIM is sensible" and other atrocity-supporting viewpoints, the more I hope the Reapers win. If THIS is what we humans do with our sapience, then I totally get why the Reapers think we're vermin to be exterminated. Because if all we aspire to as a species is petty dominance and oppression of others, as we have for millennia of our history, we don't deserve to inherit the galaxy. Maybe the next crop of sapient species won't be quite so narcissistic.

You can't possibly be saying you support the Reapers though. o.o

[1136342t54_]

ChaplainTappman wrote...
You're proving my point. The Cerberus philosophy forces a binary choice on nonhumans: submit and accept second-class citizen status, or die. TIM may see their submission as the preferable route, but that just makes him a practical racist.

No I'm not. I am presenting one way of doing it. The Turians aren't racist for making another race a client race. Thats just being practical. It would be impractical for Cerberus to treat the aliens like lesser beings most of the time. The only way for a group like Cerberus to be successful is so they can learn the advantages the aliens have and respect them but over come it. Human dominance doesn't have to come from just the military. Our economy is still the smallest and technologically the Salarians and Asari are still ahead of us. Cerberus strives to be better in all areas which can allow human dominance in the Galaxy. The Asari didn't become the most powerful race because of there military.

The core of Cerberus, the inner circle, the people TIM likely views as Cerberus proper, have an ideology that is incompatible with galactic stability, with the precepts of Citadel civilization. Those approximately 150 people have no place in society. People further out (see my "concentric circles" analogy), people like the Normandy SR2 crew, on the other hand, would certainly be welcome back into the fold, should they so desire.

Do you have any proof of that? Even if you are correct about the innercircle all the Alliance has to do is execute them and replace them. Problem solved.

[1136342t54_]

Dariustwinblade wrote...

I wonder ppl who are screaming killing Kohoku was wrong.

Do you ppl realise KOHOKU WAS A TRAITOR HIMSELF.

He made a deal with another terrorist organisation/slave trafficer etc(The Shadow Broker)

He made a deal and was going to give away top secret Alliance Intel to another terrorist to fight Cerberus as (Alliance intel is beyond sh¡t.)

Paragon Shepard can address that doing so Kohoku was a traitor
"but thats treason"

So yeah Kohoku wasn't a pure white palidin.

He made a deal with Set *Egyptian god of darkness,evil and shadow*(Shadow Broker) to defeat Hade's Cerburus.

He knew what he was getting into when he made a deal with the most dangerous and powerful broker in the galaxy.

Cerberus just 1upped him. He deserved a traitors punishment.


Surprised no one has thought about this.

Thats stupid reasoning. Everyone deals with the Shadow Broker. Politicians, Nations, criminal groups everyone. Even Anderson dealt with the Shadow Broker in the first Novel. Also the Shadow Broker isn't a terrorist organization. There isn't even any proof to call them a terrorist organization. Everyone needs to stop throwing around that word.

[ChaplainTappman]

1136342t54 wrote...

No I'm not. I am presenting one way of doing it. The Turians aren't racist for making another race a client race. Thats just being practical. It would be impractical for Cerberus to treat the aliens like lesser beings most of the time. The only way for a group like Cerberus to be successful is so they can learn the advantages the aliens have and respect them but over come it. Human dominance doesn't have to come from just the military. Our economy is still the smallest and technologically the Salarians and Asari are still ahead of us. Cerberus strives to be better in all areas which can allow human dominance in the Galaxy. The Asari didn't become the most powerful race because of there military.

Except the volus voluntarily became a client race of the turians. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement; the volus are militarily weak, and the turians aren't economically savvy. That's not what Cerberus seeks. They want to see humans dominant over all other sapient species. Dominant, defined as "commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others." What option do you see for nonhumans in Cerberus' ideal galaxy, if not submission or death? And the asari make for a poor comparison; at this point, it's largely impossible to distinguish one Council race from another. Each race relies on the other two too much for one to really be held distinct. Each has chosen to focus its efforts in areas where they are strongest, deferring to the others' particular strength.

Do you have any proof of that? Even if you are correct about the innercircle all the Alliance has to do is execute them and replace them. Problem solved.

TIM is Cerberus. He is the reason the group exists, and is aware and in charge of every operation it is conducting. Without TIM, there is no Cerberus.

[Siansonea]

DoubleOhSolo wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And the more I see posts like "TIM is sensible" and other atrocity-supporting viewpoints, the more I hope the Reapers win. If THIS is what we humans do with our sapience, then I totally get why the Reapers think we're vermin to be exterminated. Because if all we aspire to as a species is petty dominance and oppression of others, as we have for millennia of our history, we don't deserve to inherit the galaxy. Maybe the next crop of sapient species won't be quite so narcissistic.

You can't possibly be saying you support the Reapers though. o.o

Sure I can. If the choices are Douchebag Renegade Fantasy Cerberus Leading Humanity** and the Reapers, I'll pick the Reapers.

** And by "leading" I mean doing pretty much whatever they want as long as it furthers the Illusive Man's goals, regardless of who is harmed by it.

[1136342t54_]

ChaplainTappman wrote...
Except the volus voluntarily became a client race of the turians. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement; the volus are militarily weak, and the turians aren't economically savvy. That's not what Cerberus seeks. They want to see humans dominant over all other sapient species. Dominant, defined as "commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others." What option do you see for nonhumans in Cerberus' ideal galaxy, if not submission or death? And the asari make for a poor comparison; at this point, it's largely impossible to distinguish one Council race from another. Each race relies on the other two too much for one to really be held distinct. Each has chosen to focus its efforts in areas where they are strongest, deferring to the others' particular strength.

The Volus aren't the only client race the Turians have. When Turians conquer a race they turn them into a client race and allow them there own freedoms while ultimately serving the Hierarchy. That is dominance period no matter how you see it. It may sound nice but even the volus sometimes has to answer to the Hierarchy. 

Your view point on human dominance is skewed to the military aspect of control. The Asari have taken control using there economy and diplomatic skills. If the Turians went to war with the Asari all the Asari would have to do is start an embargo and that would severely hamper the Turian empire. There economy is so powerful no military power would go to war with them due to them losing more than they would gain. Cerberus wants humanity to be technologically better, militarily better and economically better than all other races. If humanity becomes better and more influential in all those fields than humans become the dominant species in the galaxy period. No need for a large scale crusade that engulfes Citadel space.

TIM is Cerberus. He is the reason the group exists, and is aware and in charge of every operation it is conducting. Without TIM, there is no Cerberus.

That didn't answer my question and is also false. Cerberus can easily survive without TIM. What they can't survive without is financial backers. TIM is a man. A very influential man but one man. He can be replaced and his backers can be replaced by the Alliance very easily. Also TIM isn't directly in charge of every operation. He has cell leaders for that.

[ChaplainTappman]

1136342t54 wrote...

The Volus aren't the only client race the Turians have. When Turians conquer a race they turn them into a client race and allow them there own freedoms while ultimately serving the Hierarchy. That is dominance period no matter how you see it. It may sound nice but even the volus sometimes has to answer to the Hierarchy.

I referred to the volus because they are the only client race we know about. We know the turians have more client races, but we know nothing about them. So we can refer only to the volus with any degree of confidence in the truth of what we say. And, again, it was a voluntary act on the part of the volus. Yes, the turians dominate the volus, but that's because the volus chose submission. They chose be second class citizens in the Turian Hierarchy. And what do you suspect would happen if the volus suddenly decided they weren't bound to follow the Hierarchy's orders?

Your view point on human dominance is skewed to the military aspect of control. The Asari have taken control using there economy and diplomatic skills. If the Turians went to war with the Asari all the Asari would have to do is start an embargo and that would severely hamper the Turian empire. There economy is so powerful no military power would go to war with them due to them losing more than they would gain. Cerberus wants humanity to be technologically better, militarily better and economically better than all other races. If humanity becomes better and more influential in all those fields than humans become the dominant species in the galaxy period. No need for a large scale crusade that engulfes Citadel space.

An inaccurate analogy. The asari don't dominate the galaxy single-handedly. Together with the turians and salarians (and post-Saren, the humans), the asari rule. It is a shared power arrangement. No one race has more power than the others.

That didn't answer my question and is also false. Cerberus can easily survive without TIM. What they can't survive without is financial backers. TIM is a man. A very influential man but one man. He can be replaced and his backers can be replaced by the Alliance very easily. Also TIM isn't directly in charge of every operation. He has cell leaders for that.

I didn't answer your question because we have differing opinions on what Cerberus wants, and whether or not it's a good thing. I see Cerberus' goals as incompatible with the pluralistic, multilateral Citadel civilization, and you don't. We're both right, and we're both wrong.

And I'm not wrong about TIM's importance. Cell leaders report directly to him. Consider Miranda's words on Minuteman Station: "I wasn't in charge [of the Lazarus Project]. The Illusive Man was." This level of micromanagement means that Cerberus would be crippled, to the point of not being Cerberus anymore, were TIM removed. The books, Retribution in particular if my memory serves, makes that point clear.

[1136342t54_]

ChaplainTappman wrote...
referred to the volus because they are the only client race we know about. We know the turians have more client races, but we know nothing about them. So we can refer only to the volus with any degree of confidence in the truth of what we say. And, again, it was a voluntary act on the part of the volus. Yes, the turians dominate the volus, but that's because the volus chose submission. They chose be second class citizens in the Turian Hierarchy. And what do you suspect would happen if the volus suddenly decided they weren't bound to follow the Hierarchy's orders?

Your ignoring part of my post. Just because the Volus is the only client race we specifically know about doesn't mean the Turians doesn't have any others. The Turians MO is to take down a races military to the point its not even a threat at all then turn them into a client race. They don't decided to become subservient they are forced into it. The Volus had no choice but to become a client race due to the Krogan menace. It was either that or die.

An inaccurate analogy. The asari don't dominate the galaxy single-handedly. Together with the turians and salarians (and post-Saren, the humans), the asari rule. It is a shared power arrangement. No one race has more power than the others.

I'm not using them as an analogy but the Codex does state they are essentially the more dominant of the other races. That doesn't mean they can live without the others because they aren't dominant by much. Also you seemed to conveniently ignore how I said that Cerberus strives to be superior in all fields.

I didn't answer your question because we have differing opinions on what Cerberus wants, and whether or not it's a good thing. I see Cerberus' goals as incompatible with the pluralistic, multilateral Citadel civilization, and you don't. We're both right, and we're both wrong.

Your argument pretty much says that Cerberus wants to exterminate or basically make other races second class citizens akin to **** Germany. I'm saing they would likely want something like the Turian Hierarchy or hell even the Galactic Empire.

And I'm not wrong about TIM's importance. Cell leaders report directly to him. Consider Miranda's words on Minuteman Station: "I wasn't in charge [of the Lazarus Project]. The Illusive Man was." This level of micromanagement means that Cerberus would be crippled, to the point of not being Cerberus anymore, were TIM removed. The books, Retribution in particular if my memory serves, makes that point clear.

No TIM is obviously left out of the loop of multiple Cerberus projects. They report to him that is about it. Miranda only says TIM is the leader by default because he heads the whole organization. He just doesn't micromanage as he should. If TIM really did that half of these projects wouldn't have failed. He only has some personal interference in really large projects but not by much. Losing TIM will be a blow to Cerberus but only if they can't find another leader. Alliance can provide a leader and financial support.

[ChaplainTappman]

1136342t54 wrote...

Your ignoring part of my post. Just because the Volus is the only client race we specifically know about doesn't mean the Turians doesn't have any others. The Turians MO is to take down a races military to the point its not even a threat at all then turn them into a client race. They don't decided to become subservient they are forced into it. The Volus had no choice but to become a client race due to the Krogan menace. It was either that or die.

I never said the turians didn't have any other client races. In fact, I specifically pointed out the the codex refers to plural client races. But the volus are the only client race we have any information on. What purpose does discussing a race or races we know literally nothing about serve? And while the volus might have felt pressured to seek client status by the Krogan Rebellions, we don't know whether or not they were literally forced. The codex says that "they were volutarily absorbed in the Hierarchy." And wherever the turians force client status on another race, I suspect you'll find exactly the binary choice I've been talking about: submit or die.

I'm not using them as an analogy but the Codex does state they are essentially the more dominant of the other races. That doesn't mean they can live without the others because they aren't dominant by much. Also you seemed to conveniently ignore how I said that Cerberus strives to be superior in all fields.

Where does the Codex say that? I legitimately have never read that. And I didn't "conveniently ignore" anything. I don't see how it's relevant, and it goes to my suggestion that Cerberus seeks human lordship over the galaxy.

Your argument pretty much says that Cerberus wants to exterminate or basically make other races second class citizens akin to **** Germany. I'm saing they would likely want something like the Turian Hierarchy or hell even the Galactic Empire.

Neither of your examples do much to bolster your argument. Hierarchy client races are second-class citizens; it it more difficult for a volus to attain full Hierarchy citizenship than it is for a turian. And one of the Empire's core beliefs was human supremacy, and the Empire clearly held a "submit or die" philosophy. Like I said before, I'm sure TIM would prefer nonhuman submission over having to destroy them, just like the turians prefer the volus alive, and the Empire prefers wookie slaves to wookie corpses. But that just makes him practical, not benevolent.

No TIM is obviously left out of the loop of multiple Cerberus projects. They report to him that is about it. Miranda only says TIM is the leader by default because he heads the whole organization. He just doesn't micromanage as he should. If TIM really did that half of these projects wouldn't have failed. He only has some personal interference in really large projects but not by much. Losing TIM will be a blow to Cerberus but only if they can't find another leader. Alliance can provide a leader and financial support.

I don't know how to respond to this. You're ignoring repeated statements made in the game and in the books to the effect that TIM personally oversees all cells, and that his removal would constitute a beheading for Cerberus.

[1136342t54_]

[quote]ChaplainTappman wrote...

I never said the turians didn't have any other client races. In fact, I specifically pointed out the the codex refers to plural client races. But the volus are the only client race we have any information on. What purpose does discussing a race or races we know literally nothing about serve? And while the volus might have felt pressured to seek client status by the Krogan Rebellions, we don't know whether or not they were literally forced. The codex says that "they were volutarily absorbed in the Hierarchy." And wherever the turians force client status on another race, I suspect you'll find exactly the binary choice I've been talking about: submit or die.
[/quote]

We don't need to know what the races are to know what the Turians MO is when it comes to military conflict with other races. Especially since we have the Volus as an example client race. I never said the Volus was forced into it but they may as well have been. They had no choice but to become a client race of the Turians during the Krogan wars. The Volus can be used as an example of how a type of Client race would be like. What is probably the only difference between them and many other client races is the fact that they chose it. Also I know you are saying that this is a submit or die choice and I'm not denying that. What it seems you are trying to push is that the submit is more along the lines of the ****s.

[quote]
Where does the Codex say that? I legitimately have never read that. And I didn't "conveniently ignore" anything. I don't see how it's relevant, and it goes to my suggestion that Cerberus seeks human lordship over the galaxy.
[/quote]
Dominance isn't the right world but they are considered the most powerful and influential of the galaxy

[quote\\
Neither of your examples do much to bolster your argument. Hierarchy client races are second-class citizens; it it more difficult for a volus to attain full Hierarchy citizenship than it is for a turian. And one of the Empire's core beliefs was human supremacy, and the Empire clearly held a "submit or die" philosophy. Like I said before, I'm sure TIM would prefer nonhuman submission over having to destroy them, just like the turians prefer the volus alive, and the Empire prefers wookie slaves to wookie corpses. But that just makes him practical, not benevolent.
[/quote]
I'm trying to tell you that Cerberus wants more than simple lord ship over the Galaxy. They want to be superior and better than the races when it comes to science, technology, biotics, miltary etc.

Its not xenophobia to want your race to be better than the others. My argument revolves around how Cerberus ideals are in a way naturally similar to the Alliance just far more extreme. It would make it easier for the Alliance to assume control of the organization.

[quote]
I don't know how to respond to this. You're ignoring repeated statements made in the game and in the books to the effect that TIM personally oversees all cells, and that his removal would constitute a beheading for Cerberus.
[/quote]

I am not ignoring any of those statements. I am giving you reasons why people like Miranda are saying TIM is in charge. He doesn't micromanage every single thing that would be incredibly time consuming and inefficient. Cerberus operate in separate cells for a reason. They have different leaders so they can run the different cells. TIM will check in and make sure those cells aren't screwing up half the time. Its at a point where the ones who do screw up have to hide it. 

If TIM was removed from Cerberus then the organization on its own would probably not be able to survive. Now if the Alliance came in and took over they can re organize it into what they prefer. Many of the operatives are former Alliance anyway so it won't matter much. I'm not saying it will be easy but its not impossible.

[ChaplainTappman]

1136342t54 wrote...

We don't need to know what the races are to know what the Turians MO is when it comes to military conflict with other races. Especially since we have the Volus as an example client race. I never said the Volus was forced into it but they may as well have been. They had no choice but to become a client race of the Turians during the Krogan wars. The Volus can be used as an example of how a type of Client race would be like. What is probably the only difference between them and many other client races is the fact that they chose it. Also I know you are saying that this is a submit or die choice and I'm not denying that. What it seems you are trying to push is that the submit is more along the lines of the ****s.

I don't personally equate the Turian Hierarchy with **** Germany. But I think that Cerberus' ideal state is more akin to it than not; an asari or hanar or elcor could live and succeed in Cerberus' galaxy, but they'll never be leaders. They'll always be subordinate to humans.

I'm trying to tell you that Cerberus wants more than simple lord ship over the Galaxy. They want to be superior and better than the races when it comes to science, technology, biotics, miltary etc.

Its not xenophobia to want your race to be better than the others. My argument revolves around how Cerberus ideals are in a way naturally similar to the Alliance just far more extreme. It would make it easier for the Alliance to assume control of the organization.

You're right, it isn't xenophobic to be pro-human. But Cerberus believes in a Huntington-style clash of civilizations, a "Clash of Species," if you will. They believe that aliens will inevitably attempt to wipe out humanity. That kind of philosophy, to me, precludes cooperation, precludes integration into galactic civilization.

I am not ignoring any of those statements. I am giving you reasons why people like Miranda are saying TIM is in charge. He doesn't micromanage every single thing that would be incredibly time consuming and inefficient. Cerberus operate in separate cells for a reason. They have different leaders so they can run the different cells. TIM will check in and make sure those cells aren't screwing up half the time. Its at a point where the ones who do screw up have to hide it.

Again, logically what you're saying makes sense. But you're asking me to ignore the repeated statements that TIM personallly oversees all cells; that for this reason there are never more than a dozen operations ongoing; and that this degree of micromanagement means that Cerberus would be crippled were TIM removed.

If TIM was removed from Cerberus then the organization on its own would probably not be able to survive. Now if the Alliance came in and took over they can re organize it into what they prefer. Many of the operatives are former Alliance anyway so it won't matter much. I'm not saying it will be easy but its not impossible.

That's all reasonable; it would certainly be possible to repurpose, as it were, the outer rings of the group, people like the Normandy SR2 crew. But would we really want to use the people closest to TIM? The inner ring, people like Kai Leng or Dr Archer? I personally wouldn't.

[1136342t54_]

ChaplainTappman wrote...
I don't personally equate the Turian Hierarchy with **** Germany. But I think that Cerberus' ideal state is more akin to it than not; an asari or hanar or elcor could live and succeed in Cerberus' galaxy, but they'll never be leaders. They'll always be subordinate to humans.

Cerberus is smart enough to not allow that. They will likely let the aliens hold some offices like in a large senate similar to the Galactic Empire in the early days. They will need aliens to represent the needs of there races so that humanity doesn't anger everyone too much. Hell the Galactic Empire is in some ways run better than the Citadel council. I'm not saying its preferable though.

You're right, it isn't xenophobic to be pro-human. But Cerberus believes in a Huntington-style clash of civilizations, a "Clash of Species," if you will. They believe that aliens will inevitably attempt to wipe out humanity. That kind of philosophy, to me, precludes cooperation, precludes integration into galactic civilization.

I would agree but Cerberus hasn't specifically led me to believe that to be honest. My whole point of bringing up Cerberus ideals was that it isn't in general so dissimilar from the SA. Hell Miranda is one of the leaders of Cerberus and her reasoning for Cerberus is the most logical but its a bit different than TIM. Miranda believes Cerberus is a instrument of humanity TIM thinks Cerberus is humanity. There are ideals seems to be reasonable but extreme. They want to advance human interests nothing more nothing less in general.

Again, logically what you're saying makes sense. But you're asking me to ignore the repeated statements that TIM personallly oversees all cells; that for this reason there are never more than a dozen operations ongoing; and that this degree of micromanagement means that Cerberus would be crippled were TIM removed.

I'm not saying ignore it but see a reasonable explanation for why Cerberus experiments go wrong. TIM does personally oversees cells I am not denying that but its only to the point where they can still hide things from him. If they were that dependant on TIM then half of his projects wouldn't have screwed up.

That's all reasonable; it would certainly be possible to repurpose, as it were, the outer rings of the group, people like the Normandy SR2 crew. But would we really want to use the people closest to TIM? The inner ring, people like Kai Leng or Dr Archer? I personally wouldn't.

Dr. Archer is a scientist who was pressured by TIM to get results. If he didn't its likely TIM would have made his life a living hell. He wasn't xenophobic in the least. Kai Leng is xenophobic yes but is one of the best assassins in the galaxy probably on par with Thane. I'm sure the Alliance have xenophobic soldiers its impossible to weed those poeple out. Kai Leng can stay since he doesn't have much say Cerberus operations. He never did. Only the project leaders like Miranda and Archer have some say. Think about what would have happened if Archer didn't get so pressured.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 19 août 2011 - 01:21 .

[ChaplainTappman]

@1136342t54 I guess I just take "dominance" more literally than you do. In any case, I'm personally not comfortable with reintegrating Cerberus' inner circle into galactic society, and especially not into a proactive role in the Alliance. To me, TIM's belief that anything is permissible in furtherance of his goals is abhorrent. I'm no absolutist, but there is moral wrong and Cerberus routinely crosses into it. I'm uncomfortable with anyone who declares themselves to be above morality.

Kai Leng is a skilled assassin, but he's an out an out racist. You're right that there's no way to completely excise that from society or the military, but there's no reason to invite it. And Archer is a perfect example of what I'm talking about re: Cerberus' inner circle. He's a brilliant scientist, no doubt, but TIM has clearly driven him to view himself as above morality, beyond reproach. I'm perfectly content leaving him to rot, and sticking with Mordin for my science.

[1136342t54_]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

@1136342t54 I guess I just take "dominance" more literally than you do. In any case, I'm personally not comfortable with reintegrating Cerberus' inner circle into galactic society, and especially not into a proactive role in the Alliance. To me, TIM's belief that anything is permissible in furtherance of his goals is abhorrent. I'm no absolutist, but there is moral wrong and Cerberus routinely crosses into it. I'm uncomfortable with anyone who declares themselves to be above morality.

I never said allow the entirety of the inner circle. Remember I proposed killing the ones that would be detrimental to the Alliance and its quite obvious that not all members of the Cerberus leadership are immoral xenophobes. Some are practical minded individuals while others would need to be killed and is useless.

Kai Leng is a skilled assassin, but he's an out an out racist. You're right that there's no way to completely excise that from society or the military, but there's no reason to invite it. And Archer is a perfect example of what I'm talking about re: Cerberus' inner circle. He's a brilliant scientist, no doubt, but TIM has clearly driven him to view himself as above morality, beyond reproach. I'm perfectly content leaving him to rot, and sticking with Mordin for my science.

Saren was a blatant xenophobe and that didn't affect his ability at all. You don't have to like Kai Leng to find him useful as hell. TIM basically threatened him to continue the research which essentially wasn't awful in the beginning. It would have been quite useful in the war against the heretics and even Reapers. Hell I'd bet TIM would have used his brother either way. Using Mordin or being dependant on other races wouldn't be prudent for a human black ops organization.

[whywhywhywhy]

OK, I have to reset this conversation.

The defense of the VS's action by reflection of the association of Shepard with Cerberus thus a traitor is clearly an attempt by the VS supporters who use such an argument to create a suppressed correlative.  In which the events that happened leading up to the point of contention "don't matter" or the facts and events that follow it "are irrelevent" due to VS ignorance. 

I disagree as this is a question of the future events that may need to happen(from a gamer perspective) in order for the situation between the VS and Commander Machoman Shepard to be resolved and not ignored.  You can't examine what steps need to be taken in future events by limiting the argument to the point of conflict and ignoring all else except when it's convenient not to do so.  By drawing on irrelevant points, cyncism, phantasy(events that didn't happen) or rudeness to stall an actual resolution because one might fear the outcome to be less then favorable to their own illogical view. 

As much as the VS supporters would have you believe that the events
surrounding horizon aren't relevant, they are equally important as
Horizon itself.  We have to examine everything as a whole in this Chapter of the Mass effect story.  This is something the most vocal VS supporters don't want to happen as it deflates any argument they might have had because we know how this chapter ends.

So some chant "Cerberus is Evil so sheperd is automatically wrong" to create a situation which if believed absolves the VS of all responsibility and place the burdern of diplomacy/proof/intent on Shepard.  You can question shepard's loyalty from his association with Cerberus as much as you like but given his past actions and the outcome of ME2 you CANNOT question his integrity.  Because in the end Shepard was correct and any who opposed his view of a dangerous alien threat wrong.  Try as you might to disprove this but we have no other outcome if you complete the game, he defeats the biggest threat to galactic security atm.  The VS was wrong in their accessment.  But, did they know everything ? No.  Is ignorance an excuse ? No.  Is emotional outbursts to a superior officer excused in the military instead of pursuing/completing your mission ? No. 

Cerberus in particular the lazuras cell has nothing to do with what happened between them.  TIM as it's leader, the specific cell(s) which commited those actrocities touted about played a role in influencing the VS's reaction towards Shepard.  But it was the VS that decided to react the way they did.  That action is further defended by claims that it been 2 years, "the VS was in shock to see him alive and etc" All while ignoring Shepard's emotional and mental state by argument of the VS's mental state. It's an illogical conclusion to blame the incompacitied Shepard for the VS's emotional state after two years.  I'm not claiming his appearance has no impact but simply questioning the logic behind the need for Shepard to explain himself because of it.

What does all this mean ? The VS only have themselves to blame for their actions on Horizon.  Was the
reaction to Shepard understandable ?  Yes to an extent, gravitating toward/to
no when they walk away.  But I find Shepard to be 120% correct- Blameless in what
he did, he didn't sugar coat it or lie he told the truth. Something most
rationale adults would desire from a friend or lover, despite how it
sounds.  Believing the truth depends on how much trust the person recieving the truth puts in the individual recieving it.  Given that no other contention was made aside from the collectors working with Cerberus it was clear that the VS didn't trust Shepard.   Nor did the VS stay to hear/ask any questions that could have cleared things up for them.  At that point even as a lover Shepard owes the VS nothing.

Still they claim Shepard was a bone head and should have had better dialog.  I'll be the first(I think /shrug) to ask why ?  Who was Ashley to Shepard ?  Examined as a Renegade to a Paragon, commanding officer to friend or lover. I only find reason for Shepard to explain anything to a subordinate especially one who constantly fails missions/subpar performance.  Only as Shepard's lover does Ash require an explaination and maybe not even then if he's renegade.  And as he gets into the straight talk, no fancy lies or wussy apologetic toned apology that some would require of him the VS simply doesn't listen.  Yet the truth of the matter is Shepard has nothing to apologize for he doesn't answer to Kaiden or Ashley and has his mission to complete and lives to save.  If the VS feels all hurt and betrayed so be it.  Shepard and the VS have a falling out while he moves on proceeding to save the galaxy once again.

So to review Cerberus is evil so the VS reacting to that understandable ?  Sure.
Was the reaction itself excusable because of the VS's emotion state ? no.
So let's take our crayons and mark Cerberus off the list they clearly are a catalyst for the VS's behavior but defiantely no excuse for the VS's behavior.

Talk of betrayal and all of that nonsense is further fodder the VS supporters put up as an excuse.  But let me one up you,  the Council declares the Cerberus association an act of TREASON then procedes to reinstate his spectre status.  While the VS only slandered his name and belittled his efforts and left, if you happen to have romanced her/him you get a email apology(guilt driven ?).  Not a phone/skpye(equivilent) call, no video message, no voice recorded message......just text.  Gee thanks, that really helps in my Sheps assesment of the VS's mental fortitude, judgement and decision making ability.  And reinforces why I in my canon playthrough don't want to deal with the VS, I question their effectiveness under Shepard's command.

All that said I think we can now return to the Restoring trust with the vs issue, I think Kaiden has an extreme uphill battle in that regard.  Ashley could pretend she acted that way because she believed he was undercover and wanted to "make it look good that he abandoned the alliance for Cerberus."  But some issues exist with this premise.

BTW  I'm Baaaacckk:devil:

Well not really but almost

[1136342t54_]

We already pretty much came to a conclusion on the VS decision pages back. Now we are mostly just arguing for the sake of it lol.

[whywhywhywhy]

I would ask what that was but I'm not up to "discussing" it if I disagree, still all this Cerberus talk is disturbing.

[1136342t54_]

Me and this other chap mostly agree that Cerberus is bad. I just see that they can be useful with the right leadership.

[Siansonea]

[quote]whywhywhywhy wrote...

OK, I have to reset this conversation.

The defense of the VS's action by reflection of the association of Shepard with Cerberus thus a traitor is clearly an attempt by the VS supporters who use such an argument to create a suppressed correlative.  In which the events that happened leading up to the point of contention "don't matter" or the facts and events that follow it "are irrelevent" due to VS ignorance.  [/quote]

“Suppressed correlative”, and that’s a fancy way of saying what, exactly? What correlation is being suppressed?

[quote]I disagree as this is a question of the future events that may need to happen(from a gamer perspective) in order for the situation between the VS and Commander Machoman Shepard to be resolved and not ignored.  You can't examine what steps need to be taken in future events by limiting the argument to the point of conflict and ignoring all else except when it's convenient not to do so.  By drawing on irrelevant points, cyncism, phantasy(events that didn't happen) or rudeness to stall an actual resolution because one might fear the outcome to be less then favorable to their own illogical view.  [/quote]

I don’t really understand the point you’re trying to make here. You can’t use events that happen AFTER Horizon to justify the point of view of either party, if that’s what you mean. What matters is what EACH PERSON KNOWS, or thinks they know, in that moment on Horizon.

[quote]As much as the VS supporters would have you believe that the events surrounding horizon aren't relevant, they are equally important as Horizon itself.  We have to examine everything as a whole in this Chapter of the Mass effect story.  This is something the most vocal VS supporters don't want to happen as it deflates any argument they might have had because we know how this chapter ends.[/quote]

Once again, what happens AFTER Horizon cannot be part of the equation on Horizon, since none of the people involved are psychic.

[quote]So some chant "Cerberus is Evil so sheperd is automatically wrong" to create a situation which if believed absolves the VS of all responsibility and place the burdern of diplomacy/proof/intent on Shepard.  You can question shepard's loyalty from his association with Cerberus as much as you like but given his past actions and the outcome of ME2 you CANNOT question his integrity. [/quote]

Unless there was a time machine amongst all the other stupid plot ideas in ME2, then neither Shepard nor the VS can base their decisions, actions, or dialogue on “the outcome of ME2”. The VS doesn’t know that Shepard went throught the Omega 4 Relay and stopped a stupid-looking giant robot from finishing its Puree O’ Humans smoothie. Shepard doesn’t know it either. So yeah, until Shepard actually DOES do those things, we CAN question her integrity. We can even do so AFTER she does those things. Because no matter how much mud you add to the water, Cerberus is still a CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION THAT HAS MURDERED AND TORTURED ALLIANCE PERSONNEL. Therefore, a loyal Alliance soldier is within his or her rights to feel betrayed by another Alliance soldier who works “with” Cerberus. Even if Shepard has some noble goal in mind. Or rather, a goal that the Illusive Man has sold to her as noble and necessary, who knows what else the Illusive Man didn’t tell Shepard about.

[quote]Because in the end Shepard was correct and any who opposed his view of a dangerous alien threat wrong.  Try as you might to disprove this but we have no other outcome if you complete the game, he defeats the biggest threat to galactic security atm.  The VS was wrong in their accessment.  But, did they know everything ? No.  Is ignorance an excuse ? No.  Is emotional outbursts to a superior officer excused in the military instead of pursuing/completing your mission ? No.  [/quote]

By this logic, anyone who doesn’t already know the outcome of a decision should be rebuked for making the wrong choice. That’s DUMB. Because you know, so far as we know, time only works one-way. You can’t say that because “Shepard was right in the end” that everyone should a) know that or automatically trust Shepard. Shepard doesn’t have “I’m Right At The End Of The Game And I’m The Player Character” tattooed on her forehead. Seriously, this is your worst argument yet. Are you even trying anymore?

[quote]Cerberus in particular the lazuras cell has nothing to do with what happened between them.  TIM as it's leader, the specific cell(s) which commited those actrocities touted about played a role in influencing the VS's reaction towards Shepard.  But it was the VS that decided to react the way they did.  That action is further defended by claims that it been 2 years, "the VS was in shock to see him alive and etc" All while ignoring Shepard's emotional and mental state by argument of the VS's mental state. It's an illogical conclusion to blame the incompacitied Shepard for the VS's emotional state after two years.  I'm not claiming his appearance has no impact but simply questioning the logic behind the need for Shepard to explain himself because of it.[/quote]

So, the VS is supposed to know, understand and accommodate Shepard’s emotional state, but Shepard is under no onus to do the same thing for the VS? And this is because at the end of the game Shepard keeps a giant robot from finishing it’s juice box?

[quote]What does all this mean ? The VS only have themselves to blame for their actions on Horizon.  Was the reaction to Shepard understandable ?  Yes to an extent, gravitating toward/to no when they walk away.  But I find Shepard to be 120% correct- Blameless in what he did, he didn't sugar coat it or lie he told the truth. Something most rationale adults would desire from a friend or lover, despite how it sounds.  Believing the truth depends on how much trust the person recieving the truth puts in the individual recieving it.  Given that no other contention was made aside from the collectors working with Cerberus it was clear that the VS didn't trust Shepard.   Nor did the VS stay to hear/ask any questions that could have cleared things up for them.  At that point even as a lover Shepard owes the VS nothing.[/quote]

Shepard’s explanations don’t sound plausible though. You want everyone to just trust Shepard unconditionally. That’s stupid. Shepard isn’t that trustworthy, and there’s all sorts of scenarios that would fit the circumstances on Horizon. But the VS, in spite of the bitter betrayal of Shepard standing with Cerberus, is supposed to just smile and nod, and act like nothing untoward has happened. Narcissistic much?

[quote]Still they claim Shepard was a bone head and should have had better dialog.  I'll be the first(I think /shrug) to ask why ?  Who was Ashley to Shepard ?  Examined as a Renegade to a Paragon, commanding officer to friend or lover. I only find reason for Shepard to explain anything to a subordinate especially one who constantly fails missions/subpar performance.  Only as Shepard's lover does Ash require an explaination and maybe not even then if he's renegade.  And as he gets into the straight talk, no fancy lies or wussy apologetic toned apology that some would require of him the VS simply doesn't listen.  Yet the truth of the matter is Shepard has nothing to apologize for he doesn't answer to Kaiden or Ashley and has his mission to complete and lives to save.  If the VS feels all hurt and betrayed so be it.  Shepard and the VS have a falling out while he moves on proceeding to save the galaxy once again.[/quote]

So you don’t care how the VS feels, but you’re constantly b¡tching about how the VS made you—I mean Shepard—feel? Anybody else see the irony of that?

[quote]So to review Cerberus is evil so the VS reacting to that understandable ?  Sure.
Was the reaction itself excusable because of the VS's emotion state ? no.
So let's take our crayons and mark Cerberus off the list they clearly are a catalyst for the VS's behavior but defiantely no excuse for the VS's behavior.[/quote]

NOPE. Your hamfisted attempts at long-winded bluster are for naught. You’re not going to sweep Cerberus under the rug with such hamfisted arguments. Cerberus is evil. EEEEEEEEEEVIIIIIIIIIIIL. The VS reacts angrily when Shepard shows up waving the Cerberus flag. It’s understandable. But you were insulted that they dare question you. Get used to it, because there’s this little thing called a TRIAL you get to look forward to in ME3. You’re the one who opened up that “future” can of worms, so guess what? The future is a sword that cuts both ways. And guess what else? In the FUTURE, Cerberus is the ENEMY again. Suck on that.

[quote]Talk of betrayal and all of that nonsense is further fodder the VS supporters put up as an excuse.  But let me one up you,  the Council declares the Cerberus association an act of TREASON then procedes to reinstate his spectre status.  While the VS only slandered his name and belittled his efforts and left, if you happen to have romanced her/him you get a email apology(guilt driven ?).  Not a phone/skpye(equivilent) call, no video message, no voice recorded message......just text.  Gee thanks, that really helps in my Sheps assesment of the VS's mental fortitude, judgement and decision making ability.  And reinforces why I in my canon playthrough don't want to deal with the VS, I question their effectiveness under Shepard's command.[/quote]

The Council IS the law. They can do what they want.

And does Anderson TELL the VS about Shepard showing up on the Citadel? No.

Does Anderson TELL the VS—who is investigating Cerberus, among other things—that Cerberus claims the Collectors are behind the abductions, after Shepard tells him that? No.

Does Anderson TELL the VS that Shepard is even alive? And working “with” Cerberus? No.

But hey, Anderson is “nice” to Shepard, so he gets a pass.

The bottom line is that VS haters are really just acting out of their OWN emotional response to the VS’ perfectly justified dressing down of Shepard on Horizon. These are people who don’t like to be criticized in real life, and they’re certainly NOT going to be criticized in a video game. Never mind the fact that the player isn’t actually Shepard. It’s so obvious it’s laughable.

[quote]All that said I think we can now return to the Restoring trust with the vs issue, I think Kaiden has an extreme uphill battle in that regard.  Ashley could pretend she acted that way because she believed he was undercover and wanted to "make it look good that he abandoned the alliance for Cerberus."  But some issues exist with this premise.

BTW  I'm Baaaacckk

Well not really but almost
[/quote]

If this is all you got, I suggest you crawl back to wherever you climbed out of, because these arguments don’t even qualify as half-baked. More like unbaked.

[Zjarcal]

Siansonea II wrote...

DoubleOhSolo wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And the more I see posts like "TIM is sensible" and other atrocity-supporting viewpoints, the more I hope the Reapers win. If THIS is what we humans do with our sapience, then I totally get why the Reapers think we're vermin to be exterminated. Because if all we aspire to as a species is petty dominance and oppression of others, as we have for millennia of our history, we don't deserve to inherit the galaxy. Maybe the next crop of sapient species won't be quite so narcissistic.

You can't possibly be saying you support the Reapers though. o.o

Sure I can. If the choices are Douchebag Renegade Fantasy Cerberus Leading Humanity** and the Reapers, I'll pick the Reapers.

** And by "leading" I mean doing pretty much whatever they want as long as it furthers the Illusive Man's goals, regardless of who is harmed by it.

I really hope you're joking.

[Siansonea]

jreezy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

DoubleOhSolo wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

And the more I see posts like "TIM is sensible" and other atrocity-supporting viewpoints, the more I hope the Reapers win. If THIS is what we humans do with our sapience, then I totally get why the Reapers think we're vermin to be exterminated. Because if all we aspire to as a species is petty dominance and oppression of others, as we have for millennia of our history, we don't deserve to inherit the galaxy. Maybe the next crop of sapient species won't be quite so narcissistic.

You can't possibly be saying you support the Reapers though. o.o

Sure I can. If the choices are Douchebag Renegade Fantasy Cerberus Leading Humanity** and the Reapers, I'll pick the Reapers.

** And by "leading" I mean doing pretty much whatever they want as long as it furthers the Illusive Man's goals, regardless of who is harmed by it.

Have fun with extinction.

I can't, I'll be extinct. But hopefully the next dominant species has wisdom and empathy, as well as "intelligence".