1476 réponses à ce sujet

[SojournerN7]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Wrong thread? Oh my dear jreezy Sojourner83 is in the wrong forum.

Wrong forum? Sojourner's on the wrong internet.

My bad!

[ChaplainTappman]

Ryzaki wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL wrong internet indeed.

There are no true agreements just pauses until the bickering starts again

NO YOUR RONG AND ARE EVIL!1!1!!

NO U! 

NUH UH U! ALSO I DID INCREDIBLY PERVERSE THINGS WITH VARIOUS MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY!

[ChaplainTappman]

Sojourner83 wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Wrong thread? Oh my dear jreezy Sojourner83 is in the wrong forum.

Wrong forum? Sojourner's on the wrong internet.

My bad!

Take me with you when you go back to your internet? It seems like it'd be nice...

[Ryzaki]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL wrong internet indeed.

There are no true agreements just pauses until the bickering starts again

NO YOUR RONG AND ARE EVIL!1!1!!

NO U! 

NUH UH U! ALSO I DID INCREDIBLY PERVERSE THINGS WITH VARIOUS MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY!

YEAH? WELL I DID IT BETTER AND WITH VARIOUS MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY AT THE SAME TIME! 

[1136342t54_]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Sojourner83 wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Wrong thread? Oh my dear jreezy Sojourner83 is in the wrong forum.

Wrong forum? Sojourner's on the wrong internet.

My bad!

Take me with you when you go back to your internet? It seems like it'd be nice...

Me 2 take us to the Promise Land.

[ChaplainTappman]

jreezy wrote...

WELL I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS CONVERSATION IS ABOUT BUT I'LL WRITE IN ALL CAPS ANYWAY JUST TO FIT IN!

Nah, only posers write in all caps. I never wrote in caps.

[Siansonea]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Lots of pointless BS, most of it just insults toward me. Incoherent, badly structured, pointless BS. I’m not going to waste my time responding to that TL;DR point by point, because all the points are the same ones we’ve all seen before. And it’s just stupid at this point.

The folowing statement is not aimed at anyone on the forums but the internet as a whole:

So proud, so bold, so misguided, so dumb and prevalant are the internet vigilantes of the world...

May not be back for a bit.

Stay away as long as you like, but know this: If I am one of these “Internet vigilantes” you speak of, then guess what? SO ARE YOU.

Honestly, if there was some kernel of wisdom in that Faulknerian litany, can someone translate it for me? Because all I got was variations of the “NO UR DUMB!” theme. Did I miss anything?

[ChaplainTappman]

jreezy wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

jreezy wrote...

WELL I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS CONVERSATION IS ABOUT BUT I'LL WRITE IN ALL CAPS ANYWAY JUST TO FIT IN!

Nah, only posers write in all caps. I never wrote in caps.

*looks up, finds post* Of course you didn't.

Any evidence you have that contradicts me is irrelevant, and probably faked. By you.

Siansonea II wrote...

Honestly, if there was some kernel of wisdom in that Faulknerian litany, can someone translate it for me? Because all I got was variations of the “NO UR DUMB!” theme. Did I miss anything?

We started out commenting on the cyclical nature of this thread. And then we started having too much fun.

[ChaplainTappman]

jreezy wrote...
Apparently my forgery skills are rusty. You win this exchange.:crying:But next time... 

Haha! I win! I win the internet!

[whywhywhywhy]

Siansonea II wrote...
Stay away as long as you like, but know
this: If I am one of these “Internet vigilantes” you speak of, then
guess what? SO ARE YOU.

"So are you" That would imply I'm the same as you "Internet vigilante" or not.  We are nothing like.  And one thing's for sure I'm no the one making posts like this.

Siansonea II wrote...
And personally, you can chastise me for my "tone" all you want. Being "nice" is overrated, especially on the Internet. [/b]Being nice for the sake of harmony just makes people ignore you and treat you like a doormat.

Like this word? Internet.  Why not act the same despite the communication meduim ? Courtesy isn't a weakness.
Vig·i·lan·te [vij-uh-lan-tee]
    noun
1. a member of a vigilance committee.
2. any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime.
    adjective
3. done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures: vigilante justice.

Siansonea II wrote...
And it seems like THAT is the crux of the whole issue. If the VS was "nice" to Shepard, then we wouldn't have a problem. But if I was "nice" to all these folks after the umpteenth time they try to downplay Cerberus, if I treated them as if their arguments were anything but thinly veiled egocentrism, then people might think that I believe there is a shred of validity to these convoluted pretzel logic scenarios. Because I DO understand their point of view so well, it's obvious to me what's really going on. And I'm not going to act like it's not happening. So if anybody has a problem with my "tone", they can get glad in the same pants they got mad in. Or not. But being "liked" has never been high on my list of priorities, especially if it requires me to be as docile as Shepard or as deferential and accommodating as Garrus and Tali. No thank you.

This is another of your responses to someone who simply asked for a little civility to your post, keep in mind all he asked was that you layed off the insults.  Insults don't make your point for you or make it any stronger yet you still responded with this :

Siansonea II wrote...
Does this guilt trip/shame schtick work on ANYBODY? Ever? I think you know where you can put your chastising stick, because I am not going to be cowed by your obvious guilt trip ploy. Trying to appeal to my "better nature"? Telling me that I'm degrading myself? That I'm coming across as "ignorant"? And then you call me an "azzhole"? Where's your moral high ground now, darling? Step off.

And what place does nuance have in an argument that is rather simple? People try to imbue the situation with all these spurious shades of grey. They're trying to cloud the issue, because that's the only way their pretzel logic can make any semblance of sense. But it's just rationalization. Some things pretty much ARE either/or situations.
Black and white ARE shades of grey, as anyone in the graphic arts field knows. It's pretty clear what's going on, but because of the emotional connection with Shepard, people won't admit that the VS has a point. And they act like the VS has committed a grievous sin by saying two lines that are less than complimentary toward Shepard. And Shepard showing up in the company of terrorists is blameless. And I'm the one overreacting? Puh-leeze.

And it just goes to show how thin-skinned you all are. [b]You can't take anyone even implying that you
might have betrayed the Alliance by signing on with Cerberus, and you certainly can't take anyone calling you on your emotional knee-jerk reaction to same. How about coming out of your own head long enough to recognize that not everyone has to agree with you in order to be "right"? And that two people can both be right and wrong at the same time? How is THAT for nuance and shades of grey? But yeah, I'm the one who can't see things clearly. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

We can see from above I am nothing like you.  Elements of my recent post before this one simply contained harsh truths and was not one that levied insults but one that refrained from them.  I felt like we could have a decent discussion several times I thought if I could get past the emotional ourburts we could have a mutually benefical exchanged.   But everytime things gravitated towards that you bounced back to the ""I still wuv you Sheppypookins!" & "b¡tches be hasslin' me, man" mentality.  /sigh

Siansonea II wrote...
Honestly, if there was some kernel
of wisdom in that Faulknerian litany, can someone translate it for me?
Because all I got was variations of the “NO UR DUMB!” theme. Did I miss
anything?

/shakes his head.  You missed a lot.  You had better arguments earlier in the thread now your just overly emotional. Unable to articulate a counter point so you resort to more attacks and accuse me of attacking you.  I might deal with you shrewdly and straight to the point but isn't that the terms you called for when you said no to being nice  and that you wouldn't be nice ?  Now you whine that I'm attacking you when I haven't been nearly as rude or insulting as you have to others.  Well don't worry we can end it here, don't feel too bad your walking away with something.  After all reading my posts and using a dictionary to respond to them(partially) has improved your vocabulary.

Just an observation, wanna correct my typo's n return ?

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 21 août 2011 - 08:30 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Personally, I think trust is a two-way street. Both the Virmire survivor and Shepard needs to work at regaining the trust of the other.

[Made Nightwing]

jreezy wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Personally, I think trust is a two-way street. Both the Virmire survivor and Shepard needs to work at regaining the trust of the other.

Not really, at least not much work needs to be done. A simple acknowledgement from the VS that they were wrong will suffice.

Nah, that'd just be a major letdown. Look at LOTSB, the way Shepard confronted Liara over how much she had changed. There's got to be some defined confrontation between the VS and Shepard for any closure to be had.

[Siansonea]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Stay away as long as you like, but know
this: If I am one of these “Internet vigilantes” you speak of, then
guess what? SO ARE YOU.

"So are you" That would imply I'm the same as you "Internet vigilante" or not.  We are nothing like.  And one thing's for sure I'm no the one making posts like this.

Siansonea II wrote...
And personally, you can chastise me for my "tone" all you want. Being "nice" is overrated, especially on the Internet. [/b]Being nice for the sake of harmony just makes people ignore you and treat you like a doormat.

Like this word? Internet.  Why not act the same despite the communication meduim ? Courtesy isn't a weakness.
Vig·i·lan·te [vij-uh-lan-tee]
    noun
1. a member of a vigilance committee.
2. any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime.
    adjective
3. done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures: vigilante justice.

Siansonea II wrote...
And it seems like THAT is the crux of the whole issue. If the VS was "nice" to Shepard, then we wouldn't have a problem. But if I was "nice" to all these folks after the umpteenth time they try to downplay Cerberus, if I treated them as if their arguments were anything but thinly veiled egocentrism, then people might think that I believe there is a shred of validity to these convoluted pretzel logic scenarios. Because I DO understand their point of view so well, it's obvious to me what's really going on. And I'm not going to act like it's not happening. So if anybody has a problem with my "tone", they can get glad in the same pants they got mad in. Or not. But being "liked" has never been high on my list of priorities, especially if it requires me to be as docile as Shepard or as deferential and accommodating as Garrus and Tali. No thank you.

This is another of your responses to someone who simply asked for a little civility to your post, keep in mind all he asked was that you layed off the insults.  Insults don't make your point for you or make it any stronger yet you still responded with this :

Siansonea II wrote...
Does this guilt trip/shame schtick work on ANYBODY? Ever? I think you know where you can put your chastising stick, because I am not going to be cowed by your obvious guilt trip ploy. Trying to appeal to my "better nature"? Telling me that I'm degrading myself? That I'm coming across as "ignorant"? And then you call me an "azzhole"? Where's your moral high ground now, darling? Step off.

And what place does nuance have in an argument that is rather simple? People try to imbue the situation with all these spurious shades of grey. They're trying to cloud the issue, because that's the only way their pretzel logic can make any semblance of sense. But it's just rationalization. Some things pretty much ARE either/or situations.
Black and white ARE shades of grey, as anyone in the graphic arts field knows. It's pretty clear what's going on, but because of the emotional connection with Shepard, people won't admit that the VS has a point. And they act like the VS has committed a grievous sin by saying two lines that are less than complimentary toward Shepard. And Shepard showing up in the company of terrorists is blameless. And I'm the one overreacting? Puh-leeze.

And it just goes to show how thin-skinned you all are. [b]You can't take anyone even implying that you
might have betrayed the Alliance by signing on with Cerberus, and you certainly can't take anyone calling you on your emotional knee-jerk reaction to same. How about coming out of your own head long enough to recognize that not everyone has to agree with you in order to be "right"? And that two people can both be right and wrong at the same time? How is THAT for nuance and shades of grey? But yeah, I'm the one who can't see things clearly. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

We can see from above I am nothing like you.  Elements of my recent post before this one simply contained harsh truths and was not one that levied insults but one that refrained from them.  I felt like we could have a decent discussion several times I thought if I could get past the emotional ourburts we could have a mutually benefical exchanged.   But everytime things gravitated towards that you bounced back to the ""I still wuv you Sheppypookins!" & "b¡tches be hasslin' me, man" mentality.  /sigh

Siansonea II wrote...
Honestly, if there was some kernel
of wisdom in that Faulknerian litany, can someone translate it for me?
Because all I got was variations of the “NO UR DUMB!” theme. Did I miss
anything?

/shakes his head.  You missed a lot.  You had better arguments earlier in the thread now your just overly emotional. Unable to articulate a counter point so you resort to more attacks and accuse me of attacking you.  I might deal with you shrewdly and straight to the point but isn't that the terms you called for when you said no to being nice  and that you wouldn't be nice ?  Now you whine that I'm attacking you when I haven't been nearly as rude or insulting as you have to others.  Well don't worry we can end it here, don't feel too bad your walking away with something.  After all reading my posts and using a dictionary to respond to them(partially) has improved your vocabulary.

Just an observation, wanna correct my typo's n return ?

So you're preaching at me about being nice again, all the while insulting me? You've insulted me continuously in almost every post you've made. So yeah, you're talking through your hat, pal. And I'm not whining about you attacking me, do your worst. But don't try to claim some moral superiority in this exchange, because nobody's buying that bill of goods. And I loved that you included that old standby of condescending debate tactics, a dictionary definition. I couldn't script this any better if I was writing both sides of the argument. 

[Siansonea]

For those of you just joining us...

I have been deliberately confrontational in my style in this thread. I did so because the premise of a large part of the argument, that the VS was overly confrontational and unkind toward Shepard on Horizon, is flawed. I sought to illustrate this by exemplifying the very thing the VS was maligned for. I figured if people saw what REAL harshness was like, they'd realize that they had overreacted to the VS' comparatively mild dressing-down of Shepard on Horizon. And I really thought somebody would pick up on the tactic sooner, but nope, people just took it at face value.

Clearly, and predictably, people simply reacted emotionally to my confrontational tone. Indeed, it only served to reinforce my original point, that people are more concerned about how nice you are to them as opposed to any good points you might actually make. The funny thing is that for all that I've been called out for being "mean" in this thread, I've been disparaged mightily in the process. Now, don't feel bad for me, I'm a grownup, I can take it. But it's amusing that people think that "you need to be nice, you b¡tch" isn't inherently hypocritical.

So what's the take away? Instead of reacting emotionally to the characters from a Shepard-centric point of view, try to view the situation from multiple perspectives, and determine how each character has developed their own perception of events and reacted accordingly. Divorce yourself as much as possible from Shepard's expanded point of view, and the 3rd-person omniscient point of view of the game. I've put forth many explanations for the VS' extreme discomfort with the idea of Shepard working with Cerberus that make perfect sense if you look at them logically. But because of the STYLE in which they're presented, they've met with nothing but obstinate opposition. It's like a scientist reviewing Einstein's theory of relativity, and their only comment being that it's not double-spaced.

Not that I'm comparing myself to Einstein, mind you, just a little bit of hyperbole to illustrate a point.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 22 août 2011 - 05:58 .

[nitefyre410]

I never thought the VS confrontation was too harsh personally - VS grieved, mourned and then buried Shepard and to just have Shepard so up out of nowhere like "Hey I'm alive" is rather emotionally jarring and Shepards response of "Hey I did die - and I in coma as they rebuilt me" was just as correct. Its an emotional moment that once every cools down from and takes a deep breath - it shall pan out it.

[raziel1980]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Personally, I think trust is a two-way street. Both the Virmire survivor and Shepard needs to work at regaining the trust of the other.

This I agree with...though more from the standpoint of the VS regaining the trust of the Shep's I play as in my games...which in my case the VS will always be Ashley( though I may let Kaiden live through one of my pc ME 1 playthroughs, all of my PS3 ME 2 runs has Ash surviving Virmire)...

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

For those of you just joining us...

I have been deliberately confrontational in my style in this thread. I did so because the premise of a large part of the argument, that the VS was overly confrontational and unkind toward Shepard on Horizon, is flawed. I sought to illustrate this by exemplifying the very thing the VS was maligned for. I figured if people saw what REAL harshness was like, they'd realize that they had overreacted to the VS' comparatively mild dressing-down of Shepard on Horizon. And I really thought somebody would pick up on the tactic sooner, but nope, people just took it at face value.

Clearly, and predictably, people simply reacted emotionally to my confrontational tone. Indeed, it only served to reinforce my original point, that people are more concerned about how nice you are to them as opposed to any good points you might actually make. The funny thing is that for all that I've been called out for being "mean" in this thread, I've been disparaged mightily in the process. Now, don't feel bad for me, I'm a grownup, I can take it. But it's amusing that people think that "you need to be nice, you b¡tch" isn't inherently hypocritical.

So what's the take away? Instead of reacting emotionally to the characters from a Shepard-centric point of view, try to view the situation from multiple perspectives, and determine how each character has developed their own perception of events and reacted accordingly. Divorce yourself as much as possible from Shepard's expanded point of view, and the 3rd-person omniscient point of view of the game. I've put forth many explanations for the VS' extreme discomfort with the idea of Shepard working with Cerberus that make perfect sense if you look at them logically. But because of the STYLE in which they're presented, they've met with nothing but obstinate opposition. It's like a scientist reviewing Einstein's theory of relativity, and their only comment being that it's not double-spaced.

Not that I'm comparing myself to Einstein, mind you, just a little bit of hyperbole to illustrate a point.

Given that I doubt the same kinds of bonds of trust can be formed over a debate on an Internet forum as a weeks-months long misson of saving the galaxy and being under near-constant enemy fire, I'd say your analogy is a bit flawed 

But at any rate, my belief still stands.  the VS was too harsh, even if Shepard was something of a doofus.  They leaped to worst possible conclusions wihtout even trying to get all the facts.  And I think I handled the confrontational attitude rather well, if I do say so myself:whistle:

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

For those of you just joining us...

I have been deliberately confrontational in my style in this thread. I did so because the premise of a large part of the argument, that the VS was overly confrontational and unkind toward Shepard on Horizon, is flawed. I sought to illustrate this by exemplifying the very thing the VS was maligned for. I figured if people saw what REAL harshness was like, they'd realize that they had overreacted to the VS' comparatively mild dressing-down of Shepard on Horizon. And I really thought somebody would pick up on the tactic sooner, but nope, people just took it at face value.

Clearly, and predictably, people simply reacted emotionally to my confrontational tone. Indeed, it only served to reinforce my original point, that people are more concerned about how nice you are to them as opposed to any good points you might actually make. The funny thing is that for all that I've been called out for being "mean" in this thread, I've been disparaged mightily in the process. Now, don't feel bad for me, I'm a grownup, I can take it. But it's amusing that people think that "you need to be nice, you b¡tch" isn't inherently hypocritical.

So what's the take away? Instead of reacting emotionally to the characters from a Shepard-centric point of view, try to view the situation from multiple perspectives, and determine how each character has developed their own perception of events and reacted accordingly. Divorce yourself as much as possible from Shepard's expanded point of view, and the 3rd-person omniscient point of view of the game. I've put forth many explanations for the VS' extreme discomfort with the idea of Shepard working with Cerberus that make perfect sense if you look at them logically. But because of the STYLE in which they're presented, they've met with nothing but obstinate opposition. It's like a scientist reviewing Einstein's theory of relativity, and their only comment being that it's not double-spaced.

Not that I'm comparing myself to Einstein, mind you, just a little bit of hyperbole to illustrate a point.

Given that I doubt the same kinds of bonds of trust can be formed over a debate on an Internet forum as a weeks-months long misson of saving the galaxy and being under near-constant enemy fire, I'd say your analogy is a bit flawed 

But we're not comparing apples and apples. We should be comparing the Internet debate with the player's experience of playing the game, not with Shepard's in-game relationship with the VS. The relevant issue for me is the player's response to the VS, not Shepard's.

But at any rate, my belief still stands.  the VS was too harsh, even if Shepard was something of a doofus.  They leaped to worst possible conclusions wihtout even trying to get all the facts.  And I think I handled the confrontational attitude rather well, if I do say so myself:whistle:

You did!