142 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Frankly, I'm more than a little disturbed that the organization behind the greatest (and ongoing) indiscriminate mass genocide in Bioware history has been called 'cuddly fun.'

[Element Zero]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Frankly, I'm more than a little disturbed that the organization behind the greatest (and ongoing) indiscriminate mass genocide in Bioware history has been called 'cuddly fun.'

The genophage is hardly indiscrimate, and is not genocide. Whether or not one approves, the Salarians were extremely precise in what they did. The Krogan population is stable. One in one thousand births is "successful", bringing the Krogan reproductive rate more in line with most other sapient species in the galaxy. It may be terrible, but indiscrimate genocide it was not.

Modifié par tallrickruush, 08 juillet 2011 - 12:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Dude? Universal application is the definition of indiscriminate. The Salarians weren't out to stop the warmakers from breeding: every Krogan, of every generation, even those who have never been involved in war, advocated a war, or supported a war. Then, a few generations later when the number of Krogan even alive during the Rebellions can be counted on a (rhetorical) one hand, the Salarians applied it again.

And yes: radically cutting people's ability to breed is genocide, even when it isn't sending them in a population nose dive (as Wrex tells us in ME1). The Krogan birth rate may be 'normal', but it's death rate most certainly is not.

Justified and proper genocide it may be, but genocide it most certainly is.

[Dean_the_Young]

wiggles89 wrote...

The genophage is hardly indiscrimate, and is not genocide.

Preventing births in order to completely or partially destroy a race is genocide.

Very well put.

[KingNothing125]

Contraception is genocide?

[Dean_the_Young]

KingNothing125 wrote...

Contraception is genocide?

If it's forced on a population against their will and without their consent, for the purpose of preventing them from reproducing?

Yes.



Now, if you're asking if individual contraception is genocide, that goes into the hazy religious/pro-life/philosophical bounds generally best be avoided. But Bioware pretty much addressed that matter with the Rachni Queen, since the delimma is as much about her unborn children as it is her.

[Medhia Nox]

The evil was that the Salarians, Asari, and Turians uplifted the Krogan in the first place.

The species might have gone extinct on Tuchanka given the situation they were in when they were found - and at the best, they would continue their competitive cycle on their own planet and never leave.

====

This is the same kind of manipulation Cerberus plays with repeatedly.

The major difference is - the Council "seems" to be learning from its terrible mistakes (not unlike the U.S. who is responsible for wiping out an entire continent of cultures - 500 "nations" to be precise). While Cerberus is only going deeper down the rabbit hole.

====

The Council took the Renegade choice in dealing with the Rachni. *shrugs*

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 juillet 2011 - 01:20 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The evil was that the Salarians, Asari, and Turians uplifted the Krogan in the first place.

The species might have gone extinct on Tuchanka given the situation they were in when they were found - and at the best, they would continue their competitive cycle on their own planet and never leave.

====
The Council took the Renegade choice in dealing with the Rachni. *shrugs*

Oh, I don't see it as particularly evil at all. Which is to say, not at all: even the Krogan were endangered by the Rachni if the Council forces fell, whether they remained on planet or not. The Council gave the Krogan and opportunity, and the Krogans wasted it: if there was any true evil by the Council, it was that it waited so long (and let minor species bear the costs) of unchecked Krogan provocations, a fate the Krogan have only themselves to blame.

Even during the war, the genophage was more than justifiable. It's the maintanence and reimplementation of the genophage system, well after the war has ended, that justifies rebuke.

This is the same kind of manipulation Cerberus plays with repeatedly.

The major difference is - the Council "seems" to be learning from its terrible mistakes (not unlike the U.S. who is responsible for wiping out an entire continent of cultures - 500 "nations" to be precise). While Cerberus is only going deeper down the rabbit hole.

I'm really not sure whether to laugh at the absurdity of the comparison, or weep at the lack of comparable size and effect that occured.

[KingNothing125]

One could argue that the Genophage, while certainly an ethical nightmare, was necessary. Tuchanka, and pre-space flight Krogan society in general, are described as quite hazardous. Krogan birthrate evolved to be very high as a response to the low survival rate of the species. When the Salarians uplifted them, they removed the Krogan from their hostile environment and as a result, they spread across the galaxy like an especially aggressive invasive species without natural predators.

Here on Earth we go to great lengths to fight the spread of invasive species, and no one thinks twice about it. The issue with the Krogan is that they're a sentient species, which raises all sorts of ethical questions. But painting it as simply "genocide" abruptly dismisses a conversation that should be had. Population control is a serious issue, and one we will eventually have to start thinking about ourselves, in the real world. Consider the Chinese mandate that families may only have one child. Self-imposed rather than inflicted, and legislative rather than biological/chemical, yes... but the principle is essentially the same.

The leadership of Wrex would make me more comfortable about reversing the Genophage, if his reforms prove to have a lasting impact, but Wreav is the polar opposite... a typically aggressive and belligerent Krogan who openly supports resuming the rebellions. I wouldn't reverse the Genophage in a million years if Wreav leads them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Given that all of Wrex's reforms center around a 'birth control empire', in which people follow his lead because the genophage makes the breeding strategy successful, actually ending the genophage would be the single worst thing you could do for Wrex's reforms.

Without the genophage, there's no point for anyone to bother with Wrex's unification. His position, already fragile as it is, would lose support almost immediately.

[Medhia Nox]

But only necessary because they uplifted the Krogan in the first place. Whether that was necessary is unknown. We are told it was - by the Salarians.

It is possible that they uplifted the Krogan for much the same reason that Cerberus seeks "Geth" "Thorian Creeper" "Husk" warriors. So that Salarian (and other Citadel species) losses were minimized.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

But only necessary because they uplifted the Krogan in the first place. Whether that was necessary is unknown. We are told it was - by the Salarians.

It is possible that they uplifted the Krogan for much the same reason that Cerberus seeks "Geth" "Thorian Creeper" "Husk" warriors. So that Salarian (and other Citadel species) losses were minimized.

Well, there's the rather marked difference (besides sentience) that while the ME1 canon fodder army was about a hypothetical war, the Salarians and Asari both were straining to hold against the Rachni. They certainly weren't winning the war, as a matter of historic record.

The Krogan might have turned the tide, but helping the Salarians wasn't the reason they were uplifted: helping face a threat that otherwise wasn't being defeated was.


It isn't even logical to say that uplifting the Krogan was what necessitated the genophage either: the uplifting isn't what required it, but the Krogan policies continued well after they were uplifted. There's no real causal link between the two, any more than the breath you are taking right now is responsible for if you have a child in twenty years. While, yes, you breathing today is required for some action in the future, the action in the future isn't necessary because of the requirement of today.

[Arijharn]

How is it possible to compare the crimes of the Genophage (and the Council that implicitly or explicitly authorized it's use) against Cerberus'? I mean, there's truly a massive difference in scale between the two that makes any comparison absurd.

I'm sure that at the time the Genophage was necessary when the Krogan were being loud and boisterous and constantly annexing other planets for their 'just one more' requirement. So close to the aftermath of the Rachni Wars, the Council's relative manpower must have been greatly reduced (and meanwhile, the Krogan had this vast birthrate and probably manufacturing capability due to their quick birth - maturity rate). But that was at the Krogan Rebellions, the point of 'necessity' afterwards (i.e., Mordin and teams re-engineering of the Genophage) is considerably more murky -- especially since the Council had already declared the Genophage retroactively illegal due to their Citadel Conventions regulating (and in some cases preventing) WMD's, to which the Genophage would belong to something like Tier 2 or Tier 3 (self-replicating virus etc).

If then someone's argument becomes: 'it's okay for the Council to conduct illegal research/deployment' then why do people try and shoot Cerberus for the same activities? How can you respect an organisation (aka; the Council) that is as hypocritical as that?

As to ME3 though; I can handle Cerberus being 'the bad guy' if there's a really good explanation for them doing so that is probably a bit more than you'd expect... something like my idea for example

[Another_Golden_Dragon]

I will have Garrus (or myself if I have the Ability) use his sniper ability, and use TIM for Target Practice.

[Raiil]

The only thing TIM will get from my Shepard at this point is one between the eyes. TIM is dead, his associates are dead, his lackeys are dead. I just need to catch up to them.

Shepard has invested too much mentally, emotionally, and physically to let some megalomaniac with delusions of superiority run around. And even if she were inclined to mercy (which she is not), there's no way in hell she's going to let a guy who thinks he and his friends define what humanity is get anywhere near a situation where they could grab power for 'humans' and run with it.

[Repearized Miranda]

wiggles89 wrote...

Though I don't share it, I certainly understand the hatred for TIM. But his "associates" and "lackeys"? What indication do we have that shows they're all people worthy of death?

Maybe it's of the:

"I wanna wipe TIM (in this case) and every trace of him (which includes Cerberus)." It'd be no different than TIM saying he'd want to wipe out every trace of humanity which includes Shepard, but everything s/he's associated with as well.

And well, if it's not "necessary" to take them out, why will we have to do such? More than likely, we're doing so to get to TIM!

It may be that the hero doesn't care for the villian's lackeys, but if they are a hurdle to get to him or her, all bets are off. You gotta do what you gotta do regardless of how you or anyone else feels abot it.

[AntiChri5]

wiggles89 wrote...

Though I don't share it, I certainly understand the hatred for TIM. But his "associates" and "lackeys"? What indication do we have that shows they're all people worthy of death?

Mostly the part where they shoot at you.

[AntiChri5]

The scientists seem to be armed as well. Both Wilson and Miranda were, at least.

[sael_feman]

Regarding story arcs; from a renegade perspective, Cerberus has always been evil and will do anything for their needs, if Shepherd wants to support Cerberus they might stand a good chance of winning the war, then securing human dominance in the galaxy. Complete story arc.
-that is unless the illusive man is supporting the reapers (well he could be).

For Paragons the ME3 story gets interesting, not only will Shepherd have to fight the reapers but also Cerberus (Bioware dropped the ball on this one - they showed us too much in the trailers, I didn't want to see that guys - players of ME2 will tailor their savegmes accordingly to be super-moral to fight Cerberus later on). The odds that Shepherd will win seem reduced, if Cerberus is at least as powerful as the alliance then Shephers has an uphill battle ahead of him.