35 réponses à ce sujet

[Areksu]

End of game: You help mages, the mages die and the templars live. You help the templars, the mages die and the templars live. So Hawke can't save a single mage even though he can take on wave after wave of templars. Either case, Meredith and Orsino die. So if we metagame, the only smart choice is to help Meredith.
Conclusion: Hawke is the Orsinator. Enough said.

Edit: Just played through the Templar ending. Ok, so you can get the crown and save mages if you go through the templar ending, but you can't save a single person going through the mage ending. Seems like anyone who is heavily pro mage gets the shaft in this game.

Modifié par Areksu, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:10 .

[schalafi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

schalafi wrote...

In Origins, can you have a choice NOT to kill the high dragon?

So long as you don't use Kolgrim's Horn, you can avoid the fight with the High Dragon.

I meant the Archdemon, there's no choice except for the player to kill him, is there?

Modifié par schalafi, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:48 .

[DRTJR]

If you kept the archdemon as a pet the blight would still be going on.

And mages escape(Probibly through the lyrim smuggler's tunnels from the dissent quest) You your mates and Orsino and his dirty dozen are their to hold the line for as long as possible so more mages can escape.

[Plaintiff]

Areksu wrote...

End of game: You help mages, the mages die and the templars live. You help the templars, the mages die and the templars live. So Hawke can't save a single mage even though he can take on wave after wave of templars. Either case, Meredith and Orsino die. So if we metagame, the only smart choice is to help Meredith.
Conclusion: Hawke is the Orsinator. Enough said.

Edit: Just played through the Templar ending. Ok, so you can get the crown and save mages if you go through the templar ending, but you can't save a single person going through the mage ending. Seems like anyone who is heavily pro mage gets the shaft in this game.

The pro-mage epilogue explicitly states that thanks to Hawke, many mages survived to spread word to the other Circles.

[Sith Grey Warden]

Plaintiff wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But that doesn't change the fact that you decide how the story plays out. It was exactly the same in Origins. No matter what you decided to do, the archdemon was destroyed and Ferelden is saved. As you said yourself, the game ends in the same world state regardless. The only notable differences (at least so far) are very minor.

You consider who the ruler of Ferelden is a minor difference? You consider the boon chosen a minor difference (homeland for the Dalish, greater representation for the City Elves, freeing the Circle, etc.)? And that's just the ending.

Yes, extremely minor. The series will likely never return to Ferelden, making its ruler rather a moot point and even if it does, your choices for Ferelden's ruler are stopgap measures at best. Anora is barren and Alistair's capability for siring children is severly reduced by exposure to the Darkspawn taint, so the throne of Ferelden will soon be up for grabs regardless.

The series may not return there, but it has a large impact on the story told in Origins. Origins is a Fereldan tale, and the ruler of the land will play a large role,  especially since said ruler must deal with recovering from the Blight. Anora and Alistair (especially unhardened) would rule very differently, and the epilogue implies that these differences have an impact. Also, it is entirely possible that the problem with Cailan and Anora having a child was with Cailan, so Anora might still have a child. And as The Calling reveals, it is still perfectly possible for a Warden to have a child, just less likely.

Even if Anora or Alistair fail to have a child, their successors would vary. Alistair is heavily influenced by Arl Eamon and Bann Teagan, and the Warden's decision to sustain the Calenhad bloodline would likely mean that the dead King's closest relatives (a future child of Teagan?) would get the throne as the idea of birthright remains intact.

If Anora is made Queen, however, you have someone whose grandparents were commoners elevated to the highest position in the land. This would set a precedent by which the next ruler might not be a Noble at all, but someone who had proven their worth. The Guerrins would also have significantly less influence.

The boon is also irrelevent because, as the epilogue slides show you, anything you ask for is soon undone (with the exception of 'land for the Greywardens, which happens anyway, to facilitate Awakening). The Dalish do not get to hold on to their homeland and the Chantry opposes the freedom of the Circle so vehemently that the King/Queen is forced to back down. So yes, minor decision.

It is not necessarily true that the Dalish do not hold on to their homeland. All the epilogue says is that tensions with their human neighbors rose and they feared a repeat of their oldest lesson. With a just and effective Fereldan ruler in place (Hardened Alistair, perhaps?), it is entirely possible that these tensions could be dissolved. And just having any land, even temporarily, is more than they have had in centuries. (This is undeniably a long time given that the whole DA series is limited to one century: the Dragon Age)

As for the circle, even if the Chantry put a stop to the act, it would undoubtedly influence how the Mage-Templar war unfolds in Ferelden as the ruler has effectively declared support for the mages already, giving the Fereldan Circle an advantage no other Circle has.

Then there are the other boons. If a City Elf, you can grant your people representation, something that has never before existed in Ferelden or any other human nation in Thedas. Also, if the Hero of Ferelden fills the newly created role as Bann, it would likely only be a stepping stone for further reform. A dwarven Warden can choose to have Ferelden provide military aid to the Dwarves, which has a huge impact (if Bhelen is made king) as it results in the line against the Darkspawn being pushed back for the first time since Orzammar sealed itself off. Within months, the Dwarves retake Bownammar.

We're talking about how our choices change the story, there is by no means any guarantee that a decision will have more impact because it involves a king instead of a peasant or a whole country instead of a village.

It becomes far more likely though if that story is centered around said country. Even if one looks at the DA Series instead as you do, Ferelden is a nation, though a minor one, and what happens in one nation can affect the climate of the region around it, altering events in whatever nations future DA games take place. But again, DA:O is a Fereldan tale.

Modifié par Sith Grey Warden, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:31 .

[Areksu]

Plaintiff wrote...

Areksu wrote...

End of game: You help mages, the mages die and the templars live. You help the templars, the mages die and the templars live. So Hawke can't save a single mage even though he can take on wave after wave of templars. Either case, Meredith and Orsino die. So if we metagame, the only smart choice is to help Meredith.
Conclusion: Hawke is the Orsinator. Enough said.

Edit: Just played through the Templar ending. Ok, so you can get the crown and save mages if you go through the templar ending, but you can't save a single person going through the mage ending. Seems like anyone who is heavily pro mage gets the shaft in this game.

The pro-mage epilogue explicitly states that thanks to Hawke, many mages survived to spread word to the other Circles.

Yeah, but as a player who remembers the epilogue in Origins, I'm not sure if the epilogue really matters. They don't make you feel like you are saving anyone by taking the mages' side, since you only see large numbers of mages dieing and even more of them turning into demons/abominations on the way out.

Modifié par Areksu, 12 juillet 2011 - 12:23 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

Plaintiff wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But that doesn't change the fact that you decide how the story plays out. It was exactly the same in Origins. No matter what you decided to do, the archdemon was destroyed and Ferelden is saved. As you said yourself, the game ends in the same world state regardless. The only notable differences (at least so far) are very minor.

You consider who the ruler of Ferelden is a minor difference? You consider the boon chosen a minor difference (homeland for the Dalish, greater representation for the City Elves, freeing the Circle, etc.)? And that's just the ending.

Yes, extremely minor. The series will likely never return to Ferelden, making its ruler rather a moot point and even if it does, your choices for Ferelden's ruler are stopgap measures at best. Anora is barren and Alistair's capability for siring children is severly reduced by exposure to the Darkspawn taint, so the throne of Ferelden will soon be up for grabs regardless.

The boon is also irrelevent because, as the epilogue slides show you, anything you ask for is soon undone (with the exception of 'land for the Greywardens, which happens anyway, to facilitate Awakening). The Dalish do not get to hold on to their homeland and the Chantry opposes the freedom of the Circle so vehemently that the King/Queen is forced to back down. So yes, minor decision.

We're talking about how our choices change the story, there is by no means any guarantee that a decision will have more impact because it involves a king instead of a peasant or a whole country instead of a village.

Wow. Way to twist what is true to what you want to hear, buddy.

The choices in DAO were satisfying because of the epilogue. We get to hear different things that happened to Ferelden and Thedas depending on our choices and imagine that's how that world played out.  We don't NEED to play there again in a series (though who are you to say the series will NEVER return to Ferelden? No one. You don't work for them) because in the game we play we get to know what happened.

On top of that, there are some in game choices like Werewolves or Dalish or Golems or Dwarves or Templars or Mages come back to aid in the game later on.  Maybe minor, but fun and add to replayability.

DA2 had, in my opinion (caveat in place), nothing like that and that is why you see massive criticism thrown at it for the lack of choices having an impact that EVEN MIKE LAIDLAW has said they noted and will work on for the next game in his criticism response thread.

So, trying to say that DAO left the same feeling of choices not mattering to people is a weak argument because 1) we're discussing Hawke and DA2 not DAO and 2) it was not one of the criticisms attached to THAT particular game.

[jds1bio]

I appreciate the quest-level analysis you've undertaken, even if others have offered similar analysis already.

There is no doubt Hawke has a great impact on Kirkwall, his/her companions, and the progression of the story. But I think enough people have pointed out that outside of combat, the player doesn't get to take enough part in shaping the main story's outcome for Hawke.

The sibling who doesn't make it to Kirkwall, and the sibling who may or may not live past Act I are very cool demonstrations of consequence of the player's choices, but unfortunately don't weave themselves into the main conflict as much as we would like.

[MagnusValkerion]

Leon481 wrote...

To be fair, there were a lot of choices that have the potential to have a drastic and long reaching effect on future titles. As long as at least the major choices have some impact in the sequels, I'll be happy.

To be fair I thought I was the only person to think like this. In comparison if you look at ME1 and 2 you get to make lots of decisions in both these games that have no impact whatsoever on the game ending but  could have massive rammifications in the final game. Just because some of what you did in DA2 wasn't immediately affecting the story doesn't mean it won't in the long term. I mean hell my evil mage hawke let loose a dreamer abomination on the world, killed an entire clan of dalish elves, bought a mine, let varric keep a piece of the idol and laughed manically as he slaughtered his friends. Tell me thats not gonna have an impact in DA:Revolutions.

[Plaintiff]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But that doesn't change the fact that you decide how the story plays out. It was exactly the same in Origins. No matter what you decided to do, the archdemon was destroyed and Ferelden is saved. As you said yourself, the game ends in the same world state regardless. The only notable differences (at least so far) are very minor.

You consider who the ruler of Ferelden is a minor difference? You consider the boon chosen a minor difference (homeland for the Dalish, greater representation for the City Elves, freeing the Circle, etc.)? And that's just the ending.

Yes, extremely minor. The series will likely never return to Ferelden, making its ruler rather a moot point and even if it does, your choices for Ferelden's ruler are stopgap measures at best. Anora is barren and Alistair's capability for siring children is severly reduced by exposure to the Darkspawn taint, so the throne of Ferelden will soon be up for grabs regardless.

The boon is also irrelevent because, as the epilogue slides show you, anything you ask for is soon undone (with the exception of 'land for the Greywardens, which happens anyway, to facilitate Awakening). The Dalish do not get to hold on to their homeland and the Chantry opposes the freedom of the Circle so vehemently that the King/Queen is forced to back down. So yes, minor decision.

We're talking about how our choices change the story, there is by no means any guarantee that a decision will have more impact because it involves a king instead of a peasant or a whole country instead of a village.

Wow. Way to twist what is true to what you want to hear, buddy.

The choices in DAO were satisfying because of the epilogue. We get to hear different things that happened to Ferelden and Thedas depending on our choices and imagine that's how that world played out.  We don't NEED to play there again in a series (though who are you to say the series will NEVER return to Ferelden? No one. You don't work for them) because in the game we play we get to know what happened.

On top of that, there are some in game choices like Werewolves or Dalish or Golems or Dwarves or Templars or Mages come back to aid in the game later on.  Maybe minor, but fun and add to replayability.

DA2 had, in my opinion (caveat in place), nothing like that and that is why you see massive criticism thrown at it for the lack of choices having an impact that EVEN MIKE LAIDLAW has said they noted and will work on for the next game in his criticism response thread.

So, trying to say that DAO left the same feeling of choices not mattering to people is a weak argument because 1) we're discussing Hawke and DA2 not DAO and 2) it was not one of the criticisms attached to THAT particular game.

That slideshow must've really blown your mind.

Let me get this straight; the comparison to DAO is pretty much the entire basis for arguing that DA2 is an inferior product, but actually talking about DAO makes my argument weak?

You're right; DA2 didn't have anything like the Origins slideshow, it actually demonstrates the results of your actions directly in the game itself. You can think the choices have "less" impact if you want, but at least the impact  they do have goes beyond superficialities like the skins of your supporting armies. In DA2, choices you make even in smaller missions have consequences in the long term.

[Plaintiff]

Areksu wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Areksu wrote...

End of game: You help mages, the mages die and the templars live. You help the templars, the mages die and the templars live. So Hawke can't save a single mage even though he can take on wave after wave of templars. Either case, Meredith and Orsino die. So if we metagame, the only smart choice is to help Meredith.
Conclusion: Hawke is the Orsinator. Enough said.

Edit: Just played through the Templar ending. Ok, so you can get the crown and save mages if you go through the templar ending, but you can't save a single person going through the mage ending. Seems like anyone who is heavily pro mage gets the shaft in this game.

The pro-mage epilogue explicitly states that thanks to Hawke, many mages survived to spread word to the other Circles.

Yeah, but as a player who remembers the epilogue in Origins, I'm not sure if the epilogue really matters. They don't make you feel like you are saving anyone by taking the mages' side, since you only see large numbers of mages dieing and even more of them turning into demons/abominations on the way out.

So we can disregard canon if it doesn't feel right?